At the simplest, classical materialism imagined reality as a three-dimensional space, perhaps finite, perhaps infinite. Movement in time was an aspect of this reality, more or less imperfectly understood.
Within the space were indivisible atoms, of varying kinds, and the void. All observable phenomena were ultimately composed of atoms. Physics does not have a generally accepted theory of reality
to contradict this, but there are general trends in twentieth-century physics that strongly suggest classical materialism doesn’t really stand a chance.
As mentioned in the previous lecture, advances in the nineteenth century introduced the crucial concept of the field into physics.
There was, then, a need for something more than atoms and the void in order to provide a satisfactory description of reality.
The electromagnetic field occupied space and could be described mathematically. Einstein took the concept of a field a vital step further. What is the nature of gravitation?
Einstein solved this problem not by identifying a gravitational field existing in space as an electromagnetic field. He identified the gravitational field as space itself.
Space is not a void at all. Space is an entity that flexes and curves. Space curves where there is matter. Photos taken by the Hubble telescope show how space curves and bends light.
And here ends my understanding of physics, let alone my knowledge of Quantum Physics. Evidently, the particles of contemporary physics are qualitatively different kind from the particles, the atoms, of traditional philosophical materialism. Atoms in the void? Forget it.
I took refuge in the book"Quantum Physics for Dummies" and really it revealed a tiny bit of the mystery about matter in the 21st century. Let me give you a quote:
-Quote- According to classical physics, particles are particles and waves are waves, and never the twain shall mix. That is, particles have an energy E and a momentum vector p, and that’s the end of it.
And waves, such as light waves, have an amplitude A and a wave vector k, that points in the direction the wave is traveling. And that’s the end of that, too, according to classical physics.
But the reality is different — particles turn out to exhibit wave-like properties, and waves exhibit particle-like properties as well.
The idea that waves (like light) can act as particles (like electrons) and vice versa was the major revelation that started in quantum physics as such an important part of the world of physics. - End quote -
Materialism, as encountered so far in my lectures, has been left far behind not only by the extraordinary complexity of modern physics but also by its theoretical and mathematical sophistication.
In the space of 300 years, there has been an exponential growth in scientific and technological understanding, in the course of which reality has revealed itself to be more bizarre than could possibly have been imagined.
Physics now rests on two pillars, Quantum Theory, and the General Them. Of Relativity. These are extraordinary achievements of the scientific enterprise, with vast explanatory power and with startling degrees of confirmatory verification.
The classical concept of matter is completely overtaken by all these new discoveries in physics, though even when it makes it harder
to define reality as a material world, at least it shows that there is no room for supernatural non-material entities like spirits or gods, that can or do interact with matter.
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
[13:17] herman Bergson: The floor is yours....^_^
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): The photon thing is interesting, is it a particle or just a quentity of energy
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also here is where the higgs boson field comes in,
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): theory state that the photon has no mass and travel at max possible speed because it does not interact with the higgs field
[13:18] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...matter appears to be something quite complex
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): while matter particle dows and are thus getting their mass and are very hard to get even close to light speed
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): matter particles interact with higgs field, photons does not and thats as i understand the difference of matter and energy
[13:19] herman Bergson: But whatever we may define as matter.....
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can we use photons to travel through space?
[13:20] herman Bergson: from a materialist point of view, whatever it is, it needs to be observable by our senses
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also if somehow the higgs field would vanish everything including us and the entire universe would turn into energy
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how i understand the theory
[13:20] herman Bergson: All that talk about space travel....it is impossible for a huma being to survive in space....
[13:21] herman Bergson: Ok, you can survive in ISS for 6 to 9 months...
[13:21] herman Bergson: but after returning to earth you have to revalidate
[13:21] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): in our current form any way...
[13:21] herman Bergson: besides that the radiations in space are killing for us, carbon organisms
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i'm not talking about humans in space, but machines, discover other galaxies
[13:22] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): there was talk of forced evolution to develop space traveling human
[13:22] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): human or not at that point is another matter
[13:22] herman Bergson: also quite impossible Beeertje...the distances are much to huge....
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): need a warp drive
[13:23] herman Bergson: it takes generations to reach the Andromeda system
[13:23] herman Bergson: and radio waves cant travel faster than light so data exchanges takes hours, years etc...
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita. you really need to apply for a job at Star Trek to make it to outer space :-))
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i could happily travel space like in star trek as long i don't have to encounter man eating klingons and similar battle/conflict thirsty creatures
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:24] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): Mycelial network drive, lol
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i have a hard time imagine we would be all alone
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in entire universe
[13:25] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): so was this a focus on what matter is then?
[13:25] herman Bergson: Don't know what that is Chezz. does it work? :-)
[13:25] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): It's from the Star Trek Discovery
[13:26] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): My theory is that we are all following the Fibonacci sequence and we are inside a creature inside a creature, so on and so forth, just like there are entire universes in each of us.
[13:26] herman Bergson: The point here is Exi, that I'd like to claim that we live in a material world, whatever this matter is, that we are made of
[13:26] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): blink in and out of time/space through a mushroom network... don't believe that's a feasible thing
[13:26] herman Bergson: and that there do not exist any immaterial entities that influence this material world of us
[13:27] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): yes, well, gods and spirits have always been suspect at best.... certainly personified ones
[13:27] herman Bergson: Our fantasies about time and space are infinite....
[13:27] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): naturalistic views seem the most reasonable
[13:28] herman Bergson: Well...Gemma pointed at a TED talk by Bob MacDonald....about what we know
[13:28] herman Bergson: His interesting point was, can we go on like we are doing now....
[13:28] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): my question is can we tap into matter energy beyond touch and sight?
[13:28] herman Bergson: and he concluded thta we are smart enough to turn the tide....
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully
[13:29] herman Bergson: Interesting question Exi, for in that same TED talk the man talked about space...
[13:30] herman Bergson: it isn't empty but filled with dark matter and dark energy....and we have no clue at all what that is
[13:30] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): do you have a link?
[13:30] herman Bergson: the link is in the discussion section of the entry 1053 in the blog of the Philosophy class :-)
[13:30] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): Speaking of touch, I heard a theory where we don't actually touch anything......
[13:30] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): certainly there are unseen energies (dark and such), but how do we interact with them? what potential do they hold?
[13:31] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): ah thank you
[13:31] herman Bergson: simple answer...we don't know
[13:31] herman Bergson: URL of the blog is in my profile
[13:31] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): I saw that, thank you
[13:31] herman Bergson smiles
[13:31] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): :)
[13:32] herman Bergson: hmm that was what tickled me :-))
[13:32] herman Bergson: Anyway...so far what we know is that classical materialism isn't a feasable theory or idea anymore
[13:32] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): Electrons that exist in every atom of our bodies push other electrons in every atom of other bodies or things. This electron repulsion ensures that we never touch anything, unless it punctures our body.
[13:33] herman Bergson: Modern physics have made it obsolete
[13:33] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): (former philosophy major.... I get it)
[13:33] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opinion/just-in-jest/an-illusion-that-is-touching/articleshow/86760873.cms
[13:33] herman Bergson: Chezz, that remark makes me think of another issue here
[13:34] herman Bergson: For centuries materialism could be discussed by using our natural language
[13:34] herman Bergson: But due to what we now know of matter, that makes no sense anymore
[13:35] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): https://futurism.com/why-you-can-never-actually-touch-anything
[13:35] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): we gotta go all Heidegger on this
[13:35] herman Bergson: You talk about electrons touching electrons and so on, but that is not how we describe our body or sensory experiences
[13:35] herman Bergson: Heidegger....hmmm...I wonder....but we'll see
[13:36] herman Bergson: I think you have different languages describing our world...
[13:36] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): Well, that's why it's called Illusion of touch
[13:36] herman Bergson: that means, you can not apply the language of physics to our bodily world
[13:37] herman Bergson: I am not a collection of electrons....I have a skin.....electrons have no skin...if you see what I mean
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:38] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): everything is made of atoms, including skin
[13:38] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): .....We are made of atoms
[13:38] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): What are atoms made of?
[13:38] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): Electrons and protons
[13:38] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): and we are energy
[13:39] herman Bergson: For Democritus it was possible to talk about atoms.Leibniz could talk about his monads....but that is natural language that is completely overtaken by the mathematical language of physics these days
[13:39] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): Everything we know about the world is ever-changing as we uncover new theories, facts, etc
[13:39] herman Bergson: what are atoms made of.....?
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are made of hadrons and leptons
[13:39] herman Bergson: Nice question....I guess ....energy...whatever that is
[13:40] herman Bergson: ahh thank you Bejiita :-)
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hadrons = protons and neutrons (hence the name Large Hadron Collider cause it smashes protons and also lead ions stripped of their ectrons)
[13:40] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): we interact by two energy fields "touching". I can't touch the table, the table doesn't really exist at the atomic level... we're just atoms moving at different speed.
[13:40] herman Bergson: But then we ask...what are those things made of? :-))
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fun fact relating to star trek, the reason particle pcysic terms and machines sound so star treky is because star trek took their lingua from the particle physics worls, not the other way around, tachyons are a good example
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well Exi, there you are mixing two languages which produce an intriging picture, but is misleading
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): established term in particle physics before the series came to be
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and with same definition
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a particle that always go above light speed
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and cant go below
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with hadron, baryon ect
[13:44] herman Bergson: the point is, when you talk about homo sapiens you have another vocabulary than when you talke about the physical make up of matter (of which homo sapiens is a part of too)
[13:44] herman Bergson: I can shale your hand, I can on touch your atoms :-)
[13:45] herman Bergson: shake
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:45] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): You're touching the electrical field of the atoms
[13:45] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): Unless you're punctured, you're not actually "touching"
[13:45] herman Bergson: yes, when I am subject to a research of a physicist
[13:46] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): ....This includes other things, not just homo sapiens
[13:47] herman Bergson: the philosophical problem here is that the langage used in philosophy isn't able to describe exactly what matter is.
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i guess ur right there
[13:47] herman Bergson: I also wonder if it is necessary....
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the difference between the micro and macro scale are too different
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:48] herman Bergson: The basic idea of materialism is that whatever it is, everything, including us, is material
[13:48] herman Bergson: and that there does not exist anything else that is immaterial
[13:48] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): We aren't arguing that
[13:48] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): We are made of the same stuff
[13:48] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): I.e. we are all one thing...atoms and energy
[13:49] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): From Exi, "Separating ourselves out of that is where we run into troubles."
[13:49] herman Bergson: as such you could say that we are just drops in the sea thinking we are a drop of water
[13:49] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): We are water
[13:49] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): 70%
[13:50] herman Bergson: I meant a sea of atoms actually :-)
[13:50] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): Yes, you are correct
[13:50] herman Bergson: To conclude...
[13:51] herman Bergson: the only fun thing that is left still is our consciousness :-)
[13:51] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): Agree on sea of atoms
[13:51] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): lol yep
[13:51] herman Bergson: and what we call our individuality
[13:51] herman Bergson: but that is a subject for future lectures
[13:52] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): Yeah. And I wholly believe that every living creature has its own individuality, even ants or bees which to us seem not to.
[13:52] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): some argue that is still part of the mechanism of our brain and body, hence most atheists do not expect an "afterlife".
[13:52] herman Bergson: SO, for today we covered enough, I guess
[13:52] Anuska (anuska.loon) is offline.
[13:52] herman Bergson: an afterlife, Exi?
[13:53] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): the assumption of consciousness in the mind/body sort debate comes down to the fear of ceasing to exist
[13:53] herman Bergson: If the atoms of my body take another configuration (that is ashes in a crematorium) how can they participate in some other life form? :-)
[13:55] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): I support the reduction of the body to water.... we don't lose nutrients and have more to offer the planet upon death
[13:55] Chezz Conundrum-Firelyte (chezz.firelyte): Agreed
[13:55] Ƹxi ๖̶̶̶ۣۣۜۜ͜ζonundrum-Ŧirelyte (existential.conundrum): perhaps more to experience as bits and pieces of other beings... but unlikely a consciousness in the sense that we know it
[13:55] herman Bergson: YEs, I happened to hear someone say the same today....burry me....so I can fertilize the ground
[13:56] herman Bergson: Well I guess our discussion has fertilized your brains enough for today....
[13:56] herman Bergson: so...
[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....
[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
