Monday, September 14, 2020

867: You think that he thinks, thence you.......

 I guess you are all familiar with the situation, that you do something to another and that the other is surprised about your action.

  

Then you explain, that you thought that he thought it would be ok. You anticipated on a supposed expectation of the other.

   

In many cases we call this empathy and we are quite well in feeling what the other feels and we act upon it. 

  

It often works well in individual cases, but imagine the situation that you think that everybody thinks that something is the case,

  

for instance that the price of gold will go up tomorrow. Then you rapidly buy a lot of gold which is noticed by others who immediately gonna believe that they should buy gold too.

  

Or you attend a lecture of which you don't understand a word, but those around you listen attentively and make notes (like you do :-).

   

If you'd ask every individual in the room, they all might have said...I didn't understand the speaker at all, 

  

but I saw  that the others probably did, so I guess, it was just me who didn't.  

 

In social psychology it is called pluralistic ignorance. It is a situation in which a majority of group members privately reject a norm, 

  

but go along with it because they assume, incorrectly, that most others accept it. This is also described as "no one believes, but everyone thinks that everyone believes".

  

It works in many areas. Take racism. If you ask an individual person....are you a racist, you probably would get the answer ...of course not.

  

But when that person sees all racism around him, he believes that he might be the only non racist here 

  

and when all others think along the same lines, you can imagine what that leads to. Homo Sapiens finds it difficult to oppose the group.

   

I wonder, could our negative view of mankind also be a form of pluralistic ignorance. 

  

Do we fear that most people are selfish because we think others think so too? 

  

And do we end up following that cynicism, when in fact we long for a life of kindness and togetherness?

  

Capitalism and communism are founded on precisely this cynical view of mankind. 

  

“What employees want most from their employers, more than anything else, is a high wage,” stated one of the first business consultants, Frederick Taylor, a hundred years ago. 

  

Taylor became famous for his “scientific management,” which assumed that you need to measure performance as accurately as possible to make factories as efficient as possible.

  

 A manager with a stopwatch had to be standing next to the conveyor belt to record how long it took to tighten a screw or pack a box. 

  

Taylor saw the ideal worker as a thoughtless robot, "so stupid, so indifferent, he is mentally more like an ox." 

  

With this message, Frederick Taylor became one of the most influential business scientists ever. 

  

At the beginning of the twentieth century, everyone adored their ideas: communists, fascists and capitalists. 

  

From Lenin to Mussolini, from Renault to Siemens - Taylor's management philosophy spread like a virus around the world.

   

We'll look into this more next time...

 

Thank you for your attention again....

    




Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
Rutger Bregman, "De meeste mensen deugen",, 2019

  


The Discussion


[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:28] CB Axel: I bet the only people who didn't like it and knew it for the garbage that it was were the people doing the work.

[13:28] Daph Tachikawa: Seems like that is a very simplistic view of human motivation

[13:29] herman Bergson: It is indeed Daph....

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well u certainlty don't get motivaated by that, rather stresed to death

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly this practice still continue at many places

[13:29] herman Bergson: What we will be looking for is intrinsic motivation and how we deal with that

[13:29] Ludova (quippe.wylder): It seems to me that because I believe that people are OK a lot of those OK people call me naive, so there's social pressure too.

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes BEjiita

[13:30] herman Bergson: YEs Ludova, that is the problem with this pluralisic ignorance :-)

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): group pressure

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): fear being different

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then the others

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so therefore u fall into th line despite thinking different

[13:31] Ludova (quippe.wylder): But if I'm pretending I'm not different I'm not me. I stick out like a sore thumb wherever I go.

[13:31] Quippe Wylder en>es: Pero si estoy pretending No soy diferente que no soy yo. Me quedo fuera como un pulgar dolorido donde quiera que vaya.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Teh individual believes  he is deviating from the gropup belief...that is ...what he thinks the group believes....in which he is mistaken....

[13:32] CB Axel: So you all do believe, as I do, that people are NOT ok? lol

[13:33] herman Bergson: That is the problem, CB...that is a deeply engrained belief in our culture....

[13:33] Daph Tachikawa: but not in all cultures

[13:33] herman Bergson: We really have trouble to think positively

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you are ok CB:)

[13:34] herman Bergson: I speak for Western culture, Daph....there may be different views indeed

[13:34] CB Axel: So I don't think people are OK because the media has led be to believe that and not because people have not been ok to me.

[13:34] Daph Tachikawa: I see and from a Christian perspective as well

[13:35] herman Bergson: Christianity hasn't made us positive thinkers about the human condition :-)

[13:35] CB Axel: Christians believe people are OK? I thought we were all sinners according to Christians.

[13:35] Ludova (quippe.wylder): No, we're all forgiven

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed

[13:35] herman Bergson: Christians think we basically aren't ok and need the help and support of a god

[13:36] herman Bergson: otherwise we go down the drain

[13:36] Ludova (quippe.wylder): NO, we think  it's oK to need help.

[13:36] herman Bergson: So they pray like hell  :-)

[13:36] CB Axel: Then they should let God do the judging and not them.

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they better pray like heaven

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): pray

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): while telling everyone that pleasure and happiness are sinful

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and so is sex

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everything that feels good is a sin

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I mean come on

[13:37] CB Axel: Especially sex with the wrong people

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like who CB?

[13:37] herman Bergson: To thinkk it is OK we need help implies that we are doing insufficient....

[13:37] herman Bergson: that we are failing

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that depends on what is the definition of wrong people

[13:37] CB Axel: Like homosexuals or people in mixed race relationships.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but yes that can be true in some cases but probably with another kind of bad people then (rapist ect)

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): those are wrong people?

[13:38] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I don't need to be told that I'm not perfect, that's obvious. I need to be told that it's OK to be not perfect.

[13:38] theo Velde is online.

[13:38] CB Axel: According to most Christians, Beertje.

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:39] Daph Tachikawa: why do you need to be told that?

[13:39] herman Bergson: Who should tell you Beertje...and why should there be one to do so....think for yourself I would say

[13:39] Ludova (quippe.wylder): You folks have a funny idea of Christianity. Some sects are like that but the mainline denominations aren't.

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there are some more extreme verions then others indeed and things are changing

[13:39] herman Bergson: In what sense they aren't Ludova?

[13:39] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Because if I think i have to be perfect to be OK, I think I'm not OK and that hurts.

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still

[13:40] CB Axel: You're probably right about that, Ludo. It's only the noisy ones we hear, though.

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm I guess

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:40] herman Bergson: Hold on....

[13:40] CB Axel: You're probably OK, Ludo. :)

[13:40] herman Bergson: Interesting point here....

[13:40] CB Axel: I certainly don't expect perfection.

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I just want all to be able to feel good and be in love with whoever they want

[13:40] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I'm an Episcopalian. I've studied the Episcopal churca and other religions.

[13:40] herman Bergson: Ludova has an idea about what perfect means with repect to being human

[13:41] CB Axel: I was raised Episcopalian.

[13:41] Ludova (quippe.wylder): The Episcopal Church will celebrate gay marriage, in general.

[13:41] herman Bergson: Discard the details....

[13:41] Ludova (quippe.wylder): The Methodist church is about to split over that issue.

[13:41] herman Bergson: who defined the idea of the perfect human?

[13:42] Daph Tachikawa: is there a definition for that?

[13:42] Daph Tachikawa: I missed that :-)

[13:42] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I did, from what I was taught growing up.

[13:42] herman Bergson: Ludova wondered about being perfect...

[13:42] CB Axel: In general. We had one old priest who may as well have been Catholic. He was very conservative.

[13:42] herman Bergson: in relation to be OK

[13:42] Daph Tachikawa: ahhh.. why do we have to be perfect to be OK

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): being ok doesn't mean that you have to be perfect

[13:43] Daph Tachikawa: that seems more real to me

[13:43] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Jesus says I don't have to be  perfect, that "no one is perfect but God"

[13:43] herman Bergson: Allow me to quote you Ludova...

[13:43] herman Bergson: " Because if I think i have to be perfect to be OK, I think I'm not OK and that hurts."

[13:43] Ludova (quippe.wylder): That 'be ye perfect" line is a mistranslation.

[13:44] Daph Tachikawa: so when we give up on the perfect part, many more of us are OK

[13:44] herman Bergson: We have no concept of perfect...

[13:45] CB Axel: No one will be perfect to everyone.

[13:45] herman Bergson: That is a kind of Aristotelian metaphysics :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: the "telos" of man

[13:45] CB Axel: Not in everyone's opinion

[13:46] herman Bergson: The use of the concept "perfect" in relation to homo sapiens sounds pretty weird to me

[13:46] herman Bergson: a sphere can be perfect....a circle can....

[13:46] herman Bergson: but a human being?

[13:46] CB Axel: Well, now...Trump is a perfect asshole.

[13:47] CB Axel: And that's all I want to say about him today.

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): agree CB

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:47] Ludova (quippe.wylder): To me it partly meant never making mistakes and partly being like everyoone else. I knew from early elementary school that I couldn't be like everyone else.

[13:47] herman Bergson: Ahhhh...

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but he is not human, He is Jabba the Mutt

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Butt

[13:47] herman Bergson: Leave Trump out of this for today please ^_^

[13:48] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I didn't learn until my fifties that nobody can be like everyone else but they can think they can.

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we should be as good as we can

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but not push our selves to hare

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just be nice

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to each other

[13:48] CB Axel: Making mistakes is my greatest ability. And no one can be like everybody, because there is no one everybody.

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and as happy as possible

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:48] Daph Tachikawa: happy as possible?

[13:49] herman Bergson: That is the theme of today...pluralistic ignorance...

[13:49] Daph Tachikawa: what about happy regardless

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:49] herman Bergson: we all say individually what we are.....but  in relation to the group...we keep silent about it and join the group

[13:50] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Or we joining the group and stick out like a sore thumb

[13:50] Daph Tachikawa: but even if we seem to be a part of the group - there are times when our actions and efforts are not supporting that direction

[13:50] herman Bergson: That is not easy Ludova....

[13:50] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Nope, but it's real

[13:51] herman Bergson: Whistleblowers are almost always "killed"

[13:51] herman Bergson: for instance

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :( yes

[13:51] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Since I seem to naturally notice the good in others I haven't been killed yet.

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are all nice n here I think or

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:52] herman Bergson: Going against the group isn't easy too Daph...

[13:52] herman Bergson: Ture Bejiita...this is the friendliest place in SL :-)

[13:53] herman Bergson: true

[13:53] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I'm disagreeing with wha t seems to be  the group belief about Christianity, and I wonder if anyone here agrees with me.

[13:53] Daph Tachikawa: exactly but it happens.. then it is a matter of if it impacts the group think or the group determines it to be an anomoly and goes back to the way it was

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i'm not a christian

[13:54] herman Bergson: Indeed  Daph....there may be created a paradigma shift

[13:54] Ludova (quippe.wylder): That's OK

[13:54] herman Bergson: What is the group belief of christianity, Ludova?

[13:54] CB Axel: I think she may be confusing my noisy beliefs about Christianity with what the group thinks. :)

[13:55] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I don't know, but so far I've heard a lot of secular misinterpretations of Christianity from several people. That's why I wonder how many silent Christians there are.

[13:56] herman Bergson: What misinterpretations, if I may ask?

[13:56] CB Axel: Secular misinterpretations or seeing too many Christians misinterpreting the Bible?

[13:56] Ludova (quippe.wylder): I'll scroll back

[13:56] herman Bergson: ok...take your time...

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed CB

[13:57] Ludova (quippe.wylder): [13:34] herman Bergson: Christianity hasn't made us positive thinkers about the human condition :-)

[13:35] CB Axel: Christians believe people are OK? I thought we were all sinners according to Christians.

[13:35] Ludova (quippe.wylder): No, we're all forgiven

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed

[13:35] herman Bergson: Christians think we basically aren't ok and need the help and support of a god

[13:35] herman Bergson: otherwise we go down the drain

[13:36] Ludova (quippe.wylder): NO, we think  it's oK to need help.

[13:36] herman Bergson: So they pray like hell  :-)

[13:36] CB Axel: Then they should let God do the judging and not them.

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they better pary like heaven

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): pray

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): while telling everyone that pleasure and happiness are sinful

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and so is sex

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:57] Ludova (quippe.wylder):  everything that feels good is a sin

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I mean come on

[13:37] CB Axel: Especially sex with the wrong people

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like who CB?

[13:37] herman Bergson: To think it is OK we need help implies that we are doing insufficient....

[13:37] herman Bergson: that we re failing

[13:58] herman Bergson: Well...man was thrown out of paradise because of his shortcomings

[13:58] herman Bergson: to begin with

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:59] Ludova (quippe.wylder): And Handel wrote a song about that that blessed the apple, saying it was good that Man got thrown out of paradise.+

[13:59] Ludova (quippe.wylder): And is it a shortcoming to want to understand good and evil?

[13:59] herman Bergson: Then I would say...who had the right to throw him out....on what authority...?

[14:00] Daph Tachikawa: But that is taking it literally, perhaps it was meant to coincide with the actual human condition.

[14:00] Ludova (quippe.wylder): That was a story a priest made up as Judaism developed, and they would say God did.

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I love eating apples thats for sure

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:00] herman Bergson: Because He created the place (for what reason) ???

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YUM

[14:00] Daph Tachikawa: hope

[14:01] Daph Tachikawa: the idea of paradise is an ideal to strive for

[14:01] herman Bergson: I wonder why Daph...

[14:01] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Possibly to keep his kids safe until they were ready to go out into the world, knowing something about good and evil.. Not enough apparently.

[14:01] Daph Tachikawa: but we live daily with the difficulties of life

[14:02] Daph Tachikawa: so we need philosophies on how to handle those

[14:02] Daph Tachikawa: and still be happy even when it is not perfect

[14:02] Ludova (quippe.wylder): Well said, Daph.

[14:02] herman Bergson: yes, Daph. like all biological creatures do...it is our luck/misforture that we have a brain and know about it ^_^

[14:03] Daph Tachikawa: yes

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:04] herman Bergson: So...let's continue our journey in philosophy here in our class :-))

[14:04] herman Bergson: But for today  we have done our best already, I'd say

[14:05] herman Bergson: so, thank you all again for this interesting exchange of thoughts....

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes agree

[14:05] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[14:05] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu Tuesday then

[14:05] Daph Tachikawa: Thank you  all  !

[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[14:05] CB Axel: Bye. See you all next week.

[14:05] herman Bergson: You will Bejiita :-))