Since the Italian Renaissance looks the political landscape in relation to the concept of freedom somewhat like this;
on the one hand, we see how the humanists rediscovered the political ideas about freedom of the ancient Greeks and Romans.
Basically, it is the view that the individual citizen only is free when he is in some way his own ruler. Being governed by a king or some oligarch or elite makes him a slave
On the other hand, we see the huge influence of Christianity on the social organization of the many communities in Europe.
According to that institution, man needs a good Shepard in the person of a king, a good king, and ruler, of course. He is the one who leads the flock to happiness.
Actually, this idea isn't originally Christian, it was already Plato who rejected democracy and propagated the idea, that the philosopher-king the right man for the job was, not the people itself.
What we see next in Europe is a long period of all kinds of political turmoil, wars, coming and going kings, and territorial configurations.
The Italian freedom cult which started with Petrarca circa 1350 didn't survive in Northern Italy eventually but the ideas crossed the Alpes and arrived in Northern Europe.
Between 1500 and 1700, the ancient cult of freedom experienced a stormy renaissance in northern Europe.
As in Renaissance Italy, the humanistic fervor for all things Greek and Roman led to a new emphasis on the value of liberty, understood as self-government by the people.
This was especially the case in countries such as France, Poland, the Netherlands, and England. At the same time, we must be aware that the love of freedom of the humanists had its limits.
Although the humanists spoke at length about their desire for free regimes in which people were king, access to such regimes was rather limited.
Polish, Dutch, and English humanists mentioned their respective republics as examples of free governments, but in all these republics political participation was limited to a small part of the population,
for example only nobility, or only adult men of a certain social level, or an oligarchic elite. Not incomprehensible in a society dominated by ranks and classes for centuries.
Throughout the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, anti-royalists such as the humanist Rabo Herman Scheele (1622 -1662), a Dutch scholar,
protested against kings and similar rulers and warned that their arbitrary power would eventually end freedom.
In his book of 1666, "Libertas publica", he made clear, following Herodotus, Tacitus, and Cicero, that freedom could only exist in a commonwealth in which rulers and ruled people regularly exchanged place.
An interesting detail is that the world language has been Latin since 0 AD and all of intellectual Europe could therefore
take cognizance of the many political ideas that were debated. The invention of the printing press around 1435 contributed to this enormously.
But what is, maybe, the most interesting is, that since the Ancient Greeks the debate has been consistently the same in one way or another:
homo sapiens is constantly pondering about the question "What leads us to a good life and happiness? A leader with vision or our sensus communis, the politically organized common sense the people?
In other words, what is a better political organization: A strong leader or democracy?
Thank you for your attention.....
The Discussion
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:20] herman Bergson: Although we are used to have faith in democracy...I mean most Europeans at least...
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Herman Scheele (1622 -1662), a Dutch scholar,
[13:16]
[13:17] protested against kings and similar rulers and warned that their arbitrary power would eventually end freedom.
[13:17]
[13:17] In his book of 1666, "Libertas publica", how is this possible?
[13:21] herman Bergson: there still is this peculiar human trait to cling to the ONE LEADER ideology....
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): 4 years after he died?
[13:21] herman Bergson: it was published after his death Beertje ^_^
[13:22] herman Bergson: liber postumus...
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): was that possible in those years?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Sure, why not?
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): just wondered
[13:22] herman Bergson: He had left a manuscript and some friend or relative had it printed
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ja ok
[13:23] oola Neruda: happens a lot
[13:24] herman Bergson: What I often wonder about is, how a people can accept the rule of a dictator.....
[13:25] herman Bergson: He must have a lot of helpers
[13:25] oola Neruda: who plant fear
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): isn't it that the dictator overthrows the people
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): putting them under him against their will under threat of death
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dictators are rarely kind
[13:25] oola Neruda: the fear... he has an army and can change laws
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes but it always amazes me how this can be possible, Bejiita
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for ex in Iran when they overthrew the Shah is not sure they wanted knomeini instead, he forced his way in and Iran went 200 years back in time
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): torture can be a fear of the people
[13:26] oola Neruda: can create Jan 6
[13:27] herman Bergson: Was thinking of that too oola...
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the Shah was indeed no good guy,
[13:27] herman Bergson: Trump almost succeeded too to become a dictator
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and he refuse to give up
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and his support of Putins invasion really shows his true side
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): total evil
[13:27] herman Bergson: think so too
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or insane
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thre are dictators enough in this world
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and too much misery
[13:28] herman Bergson: there are Beertje...unfortunately
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in every country rules by a dictator people are suffering
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when one guy can control millions by terror and oppression
[13:28] oola Neruda: misery.... that's where the good Samaritan comes in...makes a difference
[13:29] herman Bergson: It still amazesme Bejiita
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its amazing how its even possible, if i tried an angry mob would strike me down immediatley for sure
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as said its terror
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and helpers
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): on their side
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): noone dares
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i guess you don't have enough money Bejiita
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): striking back
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed these dudes are also icky rick and they want more
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): money is a glue for dictators
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): rich
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one thing for sure is they ate a threat to freedom
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): are
[13:31] herman Bergson: Most interesting is, is that this debate on political freedom is ongoing for centuries...hasn't stopped today
[13:31] herman Bergson: and the behavior of Russia again revives the question of freedom and integrity
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the only man whois free to do what he wants is the dictator himself
[13:31] herman Bergson: Invading a free country....kind of medieval behavior
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): should not happen today
[13:32] herman Bergson: The dictator is the victim of his own delusions and obsessions
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but Putin longs back to the old days of Stalin Lenin Hitler and WW2
[13:32] oola Neruda: trump
[13:33] herman Bergson: an example indeed oola
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they are a victim of the demons in their head
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:33] herman Bergson: most of them yes
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they belong behind bars
[13:34] mika Vemo: What for everyone to forget that 23 million Russians died and to expel Hitler from Germany
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): But ordinary russians are not the bad guys
[13:34] oola Neruda: I wonder if Putin was behind a lot of the icky things trump did during his "reign"..... like setting up the date for withdrawal from Afghanastan and not alerting the transition team of a lot of the "setups"
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's no excuse to attack Ukraine
[13:35] oola Neruda: things that fall apart now
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): few Russians stand behind Putin i think. he is as much a villan to them as he is to the ukrainians
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he just want to take over the world
[13:35] mika Vemo: The two independent regions in Ukraine have asked Putin to defend them
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as said its all a big mess
[13:36] herman Bergson: It was Putin who declared them independent Mika
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a mess i hope will end soon
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and we can then be free
[13:36] herman Bergson: their international status was actually unclear
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): defend against who?
[13:37] mika Vemo: Since 2014 they have declared their independence
[13:37] herman Bergson: I see
[13:37] mika Vemo: The Ukrainian army has been offering artillery shells in the two independent wars for 3 days
[13:37] herman Bergson: But internationally they were not recognized as such
[13:38] herman Bergson: That I find pretty stupid
[13:38] herman Bergson: politically
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true, what i heard it was a work of Putin to declare them such and the entire world ansered with rage
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or os there some hidden details
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is
[13:39] herman Bergson: We never know all the facts.....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in this faster and faster rotating cement mixer
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:40] herman Bergson: We are still left with the historical question...how can democracy prevail.....and some would even ask...should democracy prevail?
[13:41] oola Neruda: here it is again.... follow the money
[13:41] oola Neruda: NO!
[13:41] herman Bergson: And those questions brings us to the heart of the matter.....what means individual freedom?
[13:41] herman Bergson: and how is it preserved in a society?
[13:41] oola Neruda: oooops... yes... democracy should prevail
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not be under a tyrant, to think free ect
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ツ
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): democracy is the optimal solution and i guess the ONLY solution to freedom , all other ways have caveats
[13:42] herman Bergson: There is only one solution.....:-)
[13:43] herman Bergson: That is, to continue this project :-)
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is more to find out
[13:43] herman Bergson: Maybe at the end we can answer the question...What is the future of democracy as we know it?
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:43] oola Neruda: who writes the laws and enforces them
[13:44] herman Bergson: yes oola
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:44] oola Neruda: and WHY
[13:44] herman Bergson: ok....let's continue next week on Tuesday :-)
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we need laws since there are badasses like thieves robbers and murderers and other troublemakers
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that will always be
[13:45] herman Bergson: The WHY is an essential part of the puzzle indeed oola :-)
[13:45] oola Neruda: and bribes
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:46] herman Bergson: No Bejiita...most people are ok...the law is to control that small percentage of bad-asses :-)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is true
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but without any laws what would happen
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): murderers running around on the loose with rifles and chainsaws
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even if few in number they can cause lot of trouble
[13:47] herman Bergson: There never will be a situation without any laws....
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like these gangs in Sweden shooting and detonating bombs among other people
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): over drugs
[13:47] oola Neruda: that is why Trump must be made accountable
[13:47] herman Bergson: people have to come to agreements all the time to get things organized in a community....
[13:48] oola Neruda: nobody above the law
[13:48] oola Neruda: esoecualy trump
[13:48] oola Neruda: especially
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or Pruttin (Prutt = fart)
[13:49] oola Neruda: or dictators
[13:49] herman Bergson: He lacks the moral understanding of what Law means oola
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:49] oola Neruda: true
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well...these insights of today may save the world again for a moment,,,:-)
[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you for that....
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well at least i think WE sit on the true solution at least mostly
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also we are all ok
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:50] herman Bergson: I hope so Bejiita.... I really do....
[13:50] oola Neruda: without the power to enforce or propagate it
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:50] herman Bergson: Better dismiss class before we have to change our mind :-)
[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i want freedom, i don't want wars and i don't want bombs detonating in my garage
[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you all gain :_)
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nobody wants that Bejiita
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): will hopefully be no more bangs around here now
