All of a sudden, I understood the situation. There is me and there is the other person. Between us lies an object the other person needs. I created the object.
What now? The other person says, I need that object and I say, I understand, but I created it and I call it mine. So, no, it is mine. What to do?
If the other person is stronger than me, he can simply take it, scare and threaten me. Case closed. However, this stronger person is not just an individual. He is a member of a group.
And when the other members of the group see him take an object by using force, the group thinks...
Oh no, because it could happen to each of us, so we have to teach this individual in our group a lesson.
So, they beat him up en taught him that if someone creates something, he needs he can not simply take it by force, because the object was not his. It was owned by its creator.
What the individual learned was that living together and sharing resources was based on reciprocity and sharing norms, ensuring group survival.
And there we are at the beginning of private property. Few ideas are as central to human society as the notion of private property.
The idea that certain things belong to individuals rather than to the collective has shaped law, economics, politics, and even moral philosophy.
Property defines rights and obligations, determines wealth and power, and underpins social order.
Yet private property is not a timeless or natural fact. Its origins are historical, emerging gradually from communal forms of possession.
Anthropological evidence suggests that early human societies, composed of small groups of hunter-gatherers, did not recognize private property in land.
Just think of it. Someone is standing on a parcel of land, points at the ground, and says, "This piece of land is mine". I guess all other members of the clan would be confused.
What do you mean? How can you claim this piece of land and call it your property? This is our earth, our hunting grounds. What gives you the right to claim it for yourself?
However, tools, weapons, and clothing were often personal possessions, but land, water, and game were communal resources. Survival depended on cooperation, and hoarding could endanger the group.
And that is how an anthropologist like Marshall Sahlins has described hunter-gatherer societies as “the original affluent society,” not because they were wealthy
but because communal sharing ensured that everyone’s needs were largely met. In such contexts, property existed at the level of personal use but not as legally enforced private ownership.
Still a long way to go to get to legally enforced private ownership. How did we get there? We'll see...
Thank you for your attention.. the floor is yours...
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
The Discussion
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:19] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): perhaps they were smarter than us to begin with
[13:21] herman Bergson: This must have been the scenario of how it all began....
[13:21] Max Chatnoir: I think it was the agricultural revolution that led to the concept of personal land.
[13:21] herman Bergson: Oh yes Max and we'll get to that soon
[13:21] Max Chatnoir: Oh, sorry.
[13:22] herman Bergson: No no It is a correct remark
[13:22] herman Bergson: We have mentioned it here in class also several times in different contexts
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: But how did that happen -- can anybody farm alone?
[13:24] herman Bergson: Ownership of personal objects is so different from ownership of land or water, rivers.....
[13:24] herman Bergson: Just think of the native inhabitants of North America...
[13:25] herman Bergson: I wonder how they could understand the behavior of the invading immigrants from Europe.
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and most still believe the same about land
[13:26] herman Bergson: In fact they are correct in my opinion
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even tho they "own" land now
[13:26] herman Bergson: You mean they have been banned to reservations?
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh those lands are delegated to them
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but some own land
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): outside reservations
[13:27] herman Bergson: I sometimes have the idea that these people are traumatized by what has happened to them
[13:27] John Ajeje Brazov (sticaatsi): greetings
[13:28] herman Bergson: Hi John
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I agree
[13:28] Max Chatnoir: Hi, John.
[13:28] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hello John
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and it i s passed through generations
[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes and that based on the belief that you can own the land and water
[13:29] herman Bergson: We have to figure out how that came to pass...
[13:29] Max Chatnoir: Are there historical records?
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are
[13:30] herman Bergson: Pieces of paper, you mean Max?
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lots of story telling is history
[13:30] Stranger Nightfire: now most of us don't even own the means of production
[13:31] herman Bergson: Interesting point Stranger
[13:31] herman Bergson: But you are far ahead in time with that observation...MArx would love it :-)
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: including agricultural production...
[13:32] Stranger Nightfire: well the lord or king owned the land which was the means of agricultural production
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still ahead
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:32] herman Bergson: but it is an important point, the alienation of the worker from what he produces.
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: How did he gt it?
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: get it?
[13:33] herman Bergson: I think the anwer is simple, Max.....by force
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is hard to talk about economics without getting ahead in time from the beginning
[13:34] herman Bergson: Just gather a band of strong fighters around you and scare everyone away from the land you want to control
[13:34] herman Bergson: I agreeGemma....everything is so intertwined...
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: But how did he decide where the boundaries of his domain were?
[13:35] herman Bergson: What about a mountain range , a desert or a river as boundary....just property that was easy to defend was chosen, I guess
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): as long there was something t eat
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): calories for the members
[13:36] herman Bergson: It is still specvulative, but I guess that landownership was simply created by force and occupation
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: Probably.
[13:36] Stranger Nightfire: I think I think some form of surveyor became a rather early occupation
[13:37] herman Bergson: But we'll get into details in coming lectures on this subject
[13:37] John Ajeje Brazov (sticaatsi): yes, land ownership was obtained by collective violence
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: What was the situation for the indigenous population? Was land individually or communally owned? Does anybody know?
[13:38] John Ajeje Brazov (sticaatsi): same as with animals that fight for territory
[13:38] John Ajeje Brazov (sticaatsi): for a vital space
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: Indigenous meaning the first human occupants. Everybody migrated in.
[13:38] Stranger Nightfire: Many indigenous tribes at least were offended by the very idea of an individual owning land
[13:38] herman Bergson: and the land was owned individually by the person who controlled the means of violence...gangmembers or soldiers
[13:38] John Ajeje Brazov (sticaatsi): beasts are often similar
[13:39] Stranger Nightfire: Land belonged to the Great Spirit
[13:39] herman Bergson: Understandable, Stranger
[13:39] John Ajeje Brazov (sticaatsi): well they were always warring for hunting areas
[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes interesting like, John....the fight for territory among animals....we weren't so much different indeed
[13:40] Stranger Nightfire: As a tribe that could become territorial
[13:40] Max Chatnoir whispers: So it was just "I was here first and I'm bigger than you?
[13:40] herman Bergson: link
[13:40] herman Bergson: Something like that, Max ㋡
[13:40] John Ajeje Brazov (sticaatsi): bigger or better organized group
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nothing has changes
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): changed
[13:41] John Ajeje Brazov (sticaatsi): nothing. no real evolution from caveman
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: So property has never been communal?
[13:41] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Gemma Cleanslate donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
[13:41] John Ajeje Brazov (sticaatsi): it was often communal
[13:41] herman Bergson: Communism has tried the concept, Max
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: I mean early on.
[13:42] John Ajeje Brazov (sticaatsi): a society of ants or bees
[13:42] herman Bergson: yes, good example indeed
[13:42] herman Bergson: absolute collectivism there
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: Yes, maybe. In the social insects.
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if you look at most of the casinos that are owned by tribes here now each member gets a stipend that is part of the ownership every month
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): depending on the income
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): here in the us
[13:43] herman Bergson: Tribes own casinos. Gemma?
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): on the reservations
[13:43] Stranger Nightfire: The names that Indigenous tribes call themselves by can often be translated as something like the human beings
[13:43] John Ajeje Brazov (sticaatsi): yes Herman
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some small some HUGE
[13:44] Stranger Nightfire: It's like we are human beings not those creatures that live across the river
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we have a HUGE two casinos here in ct
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): best in teh country
[13:44] herman Bergson: Never heard of..... remarkable...
[13:44] Stranger Nightfire: I live in central Oklahoma casinos all over the place
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: So how was that agreed to? The communal ownership?
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): https://www.google.com/search?q=mohegan+sun&rlz=1C1UEAD_enUS982US982&oq=mohegan+sun&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDU2MzZqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
[13:45] herman Bergson: We'll look into that matter, Max ㋡
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: Fascinating!
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): https://www.google.com/search?q=Foxwoods&rlz=1C1UEAD_enUS982US982&oq=Foxwoods&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDYxMjFqMGo5qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
[13:46] herman Bergson: As you see, the problems and questions are already piling up.....
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: Wow.
[13:47] herman Bergson: We have a lot of work to do....that is clear
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): why am i stepping on a frog????
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: Are you?
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:47] herman Bergson: You did what Gemma? :-)
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): check the foot
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: Oh, there IS a frog down there!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a loose frog in the room
[13:48] herman Bergson: wow...you really are stepping on a frog
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think it is attached to Beertje
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: Bergie?
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): just saw him
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or bergie
[13:48] herman Bergson: Kiss it and you have found your prince, Gemma
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:48] Max Chatnoir: It's a beautiful frog!
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it really is
[13:49] herman Bergson: Well, time to go and play with frogs...
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ty
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have to run to rl
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oops sorry
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: Really interesting topic, Herman!
[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation
[13:49] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): don't say....run Gemma
[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lololol
[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: 😂
[13:50] John Ajeje Brazov (sticaatsi): ty bye all
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: That went REALLY fast!
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the running youmean?
[13:50] Max Chatnoir: The class. :-)
[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[13:50] herman Bergson: Well,,,almost an hour, Max
[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye John:-)
[13:51] Max Chatnoir: Good to see you all, and I'm looking forward to the continuing conversation.
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