Wednesday, December 12, 2012

446: The Art Not to be an Egoist 11


The picture I am drawing of the nature of man and the origins of morality leads to the questing: who makes the decisions in moral matters? Our feeling or our reason.

In his "Treatise of Human Nature" (1739) the Scottish philosopher David Hume comes to two interesting observations.

The first one is that not reason or ratio controls man, but his feelings and emotions. The second is when feelings and emotions are the cause of our actions and not our rational deliberation, then there can be no free will.

Whatever I decide in a moral situation, I always am motivated by the strongest feeling of emotion. This is the winner and our reason is just the one who tells us afterwards, why we decided this or that.

Hume's message is clear: Our moral decisions are not the results of rational deliberation, but they are based on our intuition.

The idea that our morality is intuitive and thus largely beyond our reason, is currently more popular than it ever was.

For two hundred years these ideas enjoyed mostly a modest shadowy existence in philosophy. Today, however, it is as if it were the philosophical fashion of our time.

We'll not discuss the problem of the Free Will now, tho it has become a hot issue these days. For now we'll focus on the question whether our morality is based on and driven by intuition or reason.

You can observe this in daily life. Rational arguments are often qualified as cold. We must open up for feelings and emotions. Who doesn't know the painful effect of the reproach "Oh my, you are so rational".

When you wonder what to decide, your friend could say to you"When it feels good, then it is the right decision."  This even brought us the concept of Emotional Intelligence.

Many neuroscientists are trying to demonstrate on the computer screen, that Hume was absolutely right: The dark pulse of our feelings and emotions lights up first before the rational part of the brain lights up.

Jonathan Haidt (born 1963) is a professor at New York University Stern School of Business.His research focuses on the psychological bases of morality across different cultures and political ideologies.

According to his view, moral judgments are mostly the products of quick, intuitive evaluations of scenarios with certain content. 

Moral reasoning is usually a largely post hoc phenomenon. People are, as Haidt says, "intuitive lawyers" whose reasoning usually seeks to vindicate the person's own intuition rather than openly assess the case from an impartial point of view.

In a previous lecture I said that there seems to be a relation between how you see the nature of man and your political ideology.

Haidt reasons more or less also along those lines, it seems. He showed that we organize our moral values according to our ideology.

It is not so that our ideological beliefs are the source of our moral standards. Rational arguments for them, for what is right or wrong, valuable of worthless, fair or unfair, just come afterwards.

But how far does our intuition go?Did  Hume actually had it right, when he said that in moral actions always and only the strongest feeling is the decisive factor? 

And it is true that, as Haidt, many neuroscientists and some psychologists believe that the brain only works as an advertising department that justifies the decisions of feeling afterwards?


The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^
[13:19] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Hmm Interesting stuff tonight
[13:20] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: yes
[13:20] Debbie Dee (framdor): Interesting thanks Prof ;)
[13:20] Bejiita Imako: so basically what we think is right is just based on how we feel?
[13:20] herman Bergson: We're not done Debbie..still lots of questions to be answered ^_^
[13:20] herman Bergson: That Bejiita is the question....
[13:21] herman Bergson: The deeper arguments are related to evolutionary biology....
[13:21] herman Bergson: for instance...
[13:21] Chu Ann (hermine): mostly yes#cos ppl are not able to control their feelimgs
[13:21] Debbie Dee (framdor): so where does training come in? surely the commandments are taught, and reasonably observed?
[13:21] herman Bergson: take a response based on fear...
[13:21] Chu Ann (hermine): free will is really a myth for most people^^
[13:22] Chu Ann (hermine): it is very hard to be objective
[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Chu....He already said so....
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: indeed
[13:22] Bejiita Imako: its a tricky subject
[13:22] herman Bergson: And training Debbie....yes...that is the next point to look into
[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I like to see the references to animals. I think such considerations can answer a lot
[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: intuitive decisions go faster than rational decisions, i guess that was important for mankind to survive
[13:23] Chu Ann (hermine): yes training of your feelings
[13:23] Chu Ann (hermine): well, the control of these feelings
[13:23] Midi Aeon: Where do goals fit into the moral decision process?
[13:23] Kime Babenco: So our behaviour is more according to emotional impulses than logical thinking ?
[13:23] herman Bergson: Indeed Lizzy that is the most heard argument to explain the operating of the different parts of the brain
[13:23] Chu Ann (hermine): yes kime
[13:23] Bejiita Imako: basically only by control of our feelings we can get free will if i understand everything right
[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Kime…that is the debate of today in philosophy
[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That seems to make sense Bejii
[13:24] herman Bergson: Very clever Bejiita...
[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): LIke budhism teaches?
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think it gets a lot of training to get control over our feelings
[13:25] herman Bergson: Like Hume said....we can follow the emotion driven response and we can decide not to do so
[13:25] Chu Ann (hermine): true beertje not that easy^^^
[13:25] Chu Ann (hermine): and it is important to know yourself
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes..very true
[13:25] Chu Ann (hermine): how u act
[13:25] Chu Ann (hermine): and why
[13:25] herman Bergson: You can add to that the idea of an ethics of Virtue...
[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ssems logical
[13:26] herman Bergson: Like Aristotle proposed....and which is part of christian philosophy
[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am thinking also about near-reflex actions due to intense training
[13:26] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:27] herman Bergson: A lot of arguments that our morality is based on our intuition...
[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): Merlins point is good... moral values are corrupted by training - look at a soldier
[13:27] herman Bergson: We have come to this point often here...
[13:28] Chu Ann (hermine): and?
[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ty Deb, but good things too perhaps
[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): perhaps ;)
[13:28] herman Bergson: Well that we THINK we are rational beings and in fact show that we arent...
[13:28] Chu Ann (hermine): i do not think that^^^
[13:29] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:29] herman Bergson: Good for you hemine :-)
[13:29] Chu Ann (hermine): mh dunno if this is good
[13:29] Chu Ann (hermine): that keeps u thinking too much
[13:29] herman Bergson: The training of the soldier is based on fear....and the will to survive
[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well, we think a lot, even if we are irrational sometimes ;)
[13:30] Chu Ann (hermine): ^^
[13:30] Kime Babenco: It's maybe to the point, but the climate coneferences. Every politician knows what has to be done, but not one knows how to get re-elected after done that... Intuition ?
[13:30] herman Bergson: That is what Descartes said...
[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman, to some extent. But what of special forces people? I've met a few killers in my time....
[13:30] herman Bergson: you can do what you want..but you cant escape tthinking ^_^
[13:31] Chu Ann (hermine): lol thats good herman
[13:31] Kime Babenco: Indeed
[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: i already met people who obviously don't think ^-^
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: true
[13:31] Bejiita Imako:
[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehe ok
[13:31] Chu Ann (hermine): rofl lizzy me too
[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: sometimes u wonder if people think indeed
[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): define "rational being" in this context - is it enough to think?
[13:32] herman Bergson: lol
[13:32] herman Bergson: hold on ..this isnt' philosophy
[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): Language?
[13:32] herman Bergson: unfortunately all people think..also the stupid ones ^_^
[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: but our thoughts are also influenced by intuition
[13:33] Bejiita Imako: hehe
[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): so if they are stupid - and think - are they irrational?
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes LIzzy.....
[13:33] Chu Ann (hermine): but they think different things
[13:33] herman Bergson: In moral issues the question is...
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the diffinition of intuition?
[13:33] Chu Ann (hermine): and no one is stupid
[13:33] herman Bergson: is the ratio fighting with feeling or is feeling fighting with ratio :-)
[13:34] Chu Ann (hermine): everyone knows something in the world
[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): I feel the answer to that Beertje...
[13:34] Chu Ann (hermine): we r all one
[13:34] herman Bergson: The definition of intuition....
[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think we all feel, think and try to do the best we can
[13:34] herman Bergson: I would say....
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: one scary example i read before about the nazis what that they didnt do all that killing cause of blindly following orders, Hitler had brainwashed then so they actually thought it was right to kill and cause suffering
[13:35] herman Bergson: an unreasoned primary response to a situation based on primary emotional reflexes…
[13:35] Bejiita Imako: they bellieved it was actually the right to do
[13:35] Chu Ann (hermine): yes as the americans with the indians^^
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you
[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): I saw that in South AFrica before 1994. Inhuman actions, carried out with vigor.
[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: that doesn't excuse it Bejiita
[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sorry Herman but I am uneasy with that definitiion
[13:36] Midi Aeon: I think that your goals determine if feelings and rationality fight or reinforce each other.
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: i mean how can u think that is ever right to kill someone
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: we are all the same
[13:36] herman Bergson: One moment...
[13:36] Bejiita Imako: however some people seem to have lost their minds for sure
[13:36] herman Bergson: Merlin....you have the floor
[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes bejita!!!
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): omg....
[13:37] Chu Ann (hermine): go merlin go^^
[13:37] Bejiita Imako:
[13:37] herman Bergson: I don't want to have you feeling uneasy with a definition Merlin ^_^
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am not sure now, but it was the word 'Response' that bothered me. Perhaps I was thinking you meant action
[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): and the class lapsed into silence... you could hear a pin drop...
[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol
[13:37] Bejiita Imako: haha
[13:38] Chu Ann (hermine): ^
[13:38] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:39] herman Bergson: I have given a series of lectures on basic emotions....like fear and love and anxiety etc...
[13:39] herman Bergson: which reside in a part of the brain that is evolutionary prior to the prefrontal lobe....The extra we have over the chimps for instance.
[13:39] herman Bergson: and where our ratio resides
[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well yeah, animals act on instinct much more than reason
[13:40] herman Bergson: So what we cll intuition refers to that part of the brain...
[13:40] Bejiita Imako: true
[13:41] herman Bergson: Exactly Merlin .animals not even take the trouble to reason :-)
[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale) nods
[13:41] Chu Ann (hermine): but it is the feeling that comes without too much thinking about it
[13:41] herman Bergson: That is typically human....
[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): So Intuition is unreasoned, but can be trained, by experience?
[13:41] Chu Ann (hermine): and too much thinking is sometimes - or often - not the best to do
[13:41] herman Bergson: and here I'll already give you one thing to think about fo Thursday....
[13:42] Chu Ann (hermine): ok
[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): yay
[13:42] herman Bergson: On the one hand we seem to say that morality is intuitive....
[13:42] herman Bergson: But there is more...
[13:43] herman Bergson: whether we feel good about something or not....there also is the need to justify our actions.
[13:43] herman Bergson: What does justification mean and imply....
[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh what a juicy subject....
[13:43] herman Bergson: Maybe we'll find our next Thursday ^_^
[13:44] Chu Ann (hermine): i hope to have time to come on thursday
[13:44] Kime Babenco: OK, maybe till then
[13:44] herman Bergson: Oh that reminds me....Debbie...
[13:44] Kime Babenco: Thanks and bye for now....
[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes?
[13:44] herman Bergson: You are not from Brazil but South Africa...sorry ^_^
[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): np herman ;)
[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again...
[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman
[13:44] Kime Babenco: I am from Brasil
[13:44] herman Bergson: Kime is from Brasil :-)
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): ty for another intereting sl evening
[13:45] Kime Babenco: ;-)
[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^
[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hehe this was great for sure
[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you all...
[13:45] Kime Babenco: BYe everyone
[13:45] Bejiita Imako:  \o/
[13:45] Bejiita Imako:    ||   Hoooo!
[13:45] Bejiita Imako:   / \
[13:45] Chu Ann (hermine): thank u herman
[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ¸¸.·ღ❦º° էհɑղҟ վօմ :) °ºღ♡¸.·.¸¸
[13:45] Chu Ann (hermine): hope to see u all on thursday
[13:45] herman Bergson: You are always welcome Hermine
[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): bye friends xxx

Tuesday, December 11, 2012

445: The Art Not to be an Egoist 10


The picture I am drawing of the nature of man and the origins of morality leads to the questing: who makes the decisions in moral matters? Our feeling or our reason.

In his "Treatise of Human Nature" (1739) the Scottish philosopher David Hume comes to two interesting observations.

The first one is that not reason or ratio controls man, but his feelings and emotions. The second is when feelings and emotions are the cause of our actions and not our rational deliberation, then there can be no free will.

Whatever I decide in a moral situation, I always am motivated by the strongest feeling of emotion. This is the winner and our reason is just the one who tells us afterwards, why we decided this or that.

Hume's message is clear: Our moral decisions are not the results of rational deliberation, but they are based on our intuition.

The idea that our morality is intuitive and thus largely beyond our reason, is currently more popular than it ever was.

For two hundred years these ideas enjoyed mostly a modest shadowy existence in philosophy. Today, however, it is as if it were the philosophical fashion of our time.

We'll not discuss the problem of the Free Will now, tho it has become a hot issue these days. For now we'll focus on the question whether our morality is based on and driven by intuition or reason.

You can observe this in daily life. Rational arguments are often qualified as cold. We must open up for feelings and emotions. Who doesn't know the painful effect of the reproach "Oh my, you are so rational".

When you wonder what to decide, your friend could say to you"When it feels good, then it is the right decision."  This even brought us the concept of Emotional Intelligence.

Many neuroscientists are trying to demonstrate on the computer screen, that Hume was absolutely right: The dark pulse of our feelings and emotions lights up first before the rational part of the brain lights up.

Jonathan Haidt (born 1963) is a professor at New York University Stern School of Business.His research focuses on the psychological bases of morality across different cultures and political ideologies.

According to his view, moral judgments are mostly the products of quick, intuitive evaluations of scenarios with certain content. 

Moral reasoning is usually a largely post hoc phenomenon. People are, as Haidt says, "intuitive lawyers" whose reasoning usually seeks to vindicate the person's own intuition rather than openly assess the case from an impartial point of view.

In a previous lecture I said that there seems to be a relation between how you see the nature of man and your political ideology.

Haidt reasons more or less also along those lines, it seems. He showed that we organize our moral values according to our ideology.

It is not so that our ideological beliefs are the source of our moral standards. Rational arguments for them, for what is right or wrong, valuable of worthless, fair or unfair, just come afterwards.

But how far does our intuition go?Did  Hume actually had it right, when he said that in moral actions always and only the strongest feeling is the decisive factor? 

And it is true that, as Haidt, many neuroscientists and some psychologists believe that the brain only works as an advertising department that justifies the decisions of feeling afterwards?

444: The Art Not to be an Egoist 9


I hope you have all watched the TED lecture of Frans de Waal. If not I'll give you the URL at the end of the lecture again.

Capuchin monkeys are not our closest relatives. Nevertheless, they can give us some insights. Even monkeys, it seems, cherish certain social expectations. 

And they have a sense of how others should treat them. Learning of capuchins means to see, that the creatures that have a rough idea of a Self, have expectations and demands about how they ought be treated.

And it means to see how the highly developed sense of justice of the human being might have taken its start somewhere there and that the Self is the logical place where you should look for its origin. 

If  the self-centered form is just there, then it is possible that it can be expanded so that it includes other individuals.

The ability to be fair, and that is the point here, is not a product of culture or an exclusively human consensus. It is deeply rooted into the animal kingdom. 

But is the sense of unfairness that overcame the unfairly treaded Capuchin monkey, already the same as a sense of fairness?

You can doubt that. When the other Capuchin monkey had been really "fair' he might have had the option to share his grape with his so unfairly treated colleague.

From this point of view it would not be proper to speak of a sense of justice in Capuchin monkey, but at least of an elementary sense of unfairness.

De Waal's theory of morality has a friendly face: The germ of the Good in man is an old story from the animal kingdom, which emerged from social behavior. 

Conflict resolution was the beginning, compassion and fairness were added later. From social to moral animal  it is just a small step, or rather a series of small steps.

To understand the baboons or even more the great apes means to discover the roots of our morality: in cooperation and comforting, gratitude and a sense of community.

De Waals model of morality is a kind of layered one:  Hidden in the heart is the emotional reflex, triggered by the behavior of others.

You find this just about anywhere in the higher animals. In the middle is the empathy, the ability to assess the emotions of another, including their reasons. Great apes appear to be capable of doing so like humans.

The outermost layer is the art of taking full account of the perspective of another. Only this is exclusively human. 

This is according to de Waal the evolutionary history of our morality, as revealed in the behavior of our closest relatives in the animal kingdom.

So morality has an origin in emotional responses and is not primarily under control of our rationality. That came only later, where moral intuitions went over into moral rules.

So we may conclude, that there is evidence, that our morality is not just a layer of thin veneer on a bestial and uncontrolled human nature.

John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873) recognized this basic intuition and called it our sense of justice. And its flip side is the need to punish those who violate this feeling.

Our brain even  activates our reward center in the mesolimbic system, when we see how other people are punished for their unfairness, regardless it was unfairness towards us or to some other person.

Our ability to moral behavior, as we have seen, has deep and old roots. It is not a thin veneer created by culture. But how strong is our moral intuition?

In other words, what part does our Ratio play in all this?


The Discussion 

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^
[13:20] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::
[13:20] herman Bergson: for those who missed de Waal...
[13:20] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman
[13:20] herman Bergson: The long version of de Waal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Lm49XVkGQ
[13:20] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): interesting Herman
[13:21] herman Bergson: if you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours :-))
[13:21] Jane Fossett: "Justice" and "Fairness" are very different concepts.
[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i will watch the video later
[13:21] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): what is the difference between moral behavior and moral intuition?
[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes Jane....
[13:22] herman Bergson: Maybe that is the role of our Ratio...
[13:22] Qwark Allen: we are talking about animals in general? or just primates?
[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): By the way, for the record, that parable I mentioned last time is Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. Matthew 20:1-16.
[13:22] herman Bergson: Inndeed merlin...
[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :)
[13:23] herman Bergson: Mainly we talk about the higher animals and esp. primates here Qwark....
[13:23] Qwark Allen: i agree, mamels in general
[13:23] herman Bergson: And moral intuition causes moral behavior...
[13:23] herman Bergson: or like the moneys showed....
[13:24] herman Bergson: they have an intuition of fairness which causes the way they behaved
[13:24] Qwark Allen: probably we``ll see it even more, in the aquatic ones
[13:24] Qwark Allen: like dolphins and whales
[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: How would you define the word intuition Herman?
[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I thought in the second video the co-operation of the chimps might be self-motivated in order to maintain social relationships.
[13:25] herman Bergson: intuition is for me a kind of how the brain is programmed to respond Lizzy
[13:25] Jane Fossett: And Moral intuition may well be ingrained, but not always for the good. There is likely an evolved sense of self protection and 'group identity' to the exclusion of others. The old testament is full of atrocities in the name of God. So is Revelation.
[13:25] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ok that is acceptable, because moral is also changing in societies
[13:25] Jane Fossett: My group is good so you must die.
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Jane....We and the others....
[13:26] herman Bergson: We'll discuss that issue in future lectures....
[13:26] herman Bergson: on the other hand....
[13:26] Jane Fossett: Chimps do that too.
[13:26] herman Bergson: the intuition I am talking about has developed far before the Old Testemental humans....
[13:27] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:27] Qwark Allen: testameqntal humans are related to what? 6 - 10000 years ago?
[13:27] Qwark Allen: ehhehe
[13:27] herman Bergson: One characteristic is the cooperative attitude in social beings....like Kropotkin showed
[13:27] Qwark Allen: i see your point hermann
[13:27] herman Bergson: harly Qwark,,,,
[13:28] Qwark Allen: like this kind of behavior is innate
[13:28] herman Bergson: 4500 years ago or less I would say..
[13:28] herman Bergson: Moses lived among the Egyptians
[13:28] Qwark Allen: probalby comes from millions years ago
[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): are you going back to adam and eve?
[13:29] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): hehe
[13:29] Qwark Allen: much far back then those 2
[13:29] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:29] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:29] herman Bergson: Well look at the table at the wall to my left...
[13:29] Jane Fossett: (Kropotkin was a communist.... :-) )
[13:29] herman Bergson: smiles
[13:29] herman Bergson: Like I said in another lecture....
[13:30] herman Bergson: there seems to be a relation to the political view and the view on human nature Jane
[13:30] Jane Fossett: true.
[13:30] herman Bergson: Like Hobbes therefore could never be a communist :-))
[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: do people from different cultures have different intuitions in certain respects?
[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): good question
[13:30] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): they have
[13:31] herman Bergson: Maybe not Lizzy....
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think so since it is based on different experiences
[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in their lives
[13:31] herman Bergson: If you thing of mutual care, honesty, friendship, gratitude...feelings like that
[13:31] Qwark Allen: probably what is fair to a new guinea man, is not fair to me
[13:31] herman Bergson: They seem to have a universal character
[13:31] Qwark Allen: even both have fairness judgement
[13:32] Jane Fossett: but only in the 'group'
[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh by the way. BBC Radio4 In Our Time today is about Russell.
[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Jane....
[13:32] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): and what is the group
[13:32] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): depends on interests
[13:32] herman Bergson: Teh group is the context Wittgenstein referred to...
[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): And they even mention Wittgenstein briefly too
[13:33] herman Bergson: The truth of an emperical statement is not given as such...it is elated to a context....
[13:33] herman Bergson: Liek the example I gave...
[13:33] herman Bergson: A give B money....
[13:33] herman Bergson: tat seems to be the empirical fact
[13:33] herman Bergson: But what is the proposition to describe it...
[13:34] herman Bergson: A pays B
[13:34] herman Bergson: A loans money to B
[13:34] herman Bergson: A pays a debt to B
[13:34] herman Bergson: All seem to refer to the same empirical situation...
[13:34] herman Bergson: yet you need the context to establish the truth value of the statement
[13:35] herman Bergson: Is it isn a store, in a bar, in a bank...etc.
[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: i am wondering what the difference between intuition and instinct is
[13:35] Catt (catt.gable): nods
[13:35] Jane Fossett: Logic defines 'truth' not context, correct?
[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...so far we dare say that there is a biological and evolutionary explanation of the origin of morality....
[13:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): but seems to be very basic only
[13:36] Qwark Allen: fair enough
[13:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): why morality is off in wars as an example?
[13:36] herman Bergson: intuition and instinct....
[13:37] herman Bergson: I would say that they are two words looking at the same ting from a different angle
[13:37] herman Bergson: intuition comes from psychology....instinct comes from biology
[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: ty for the definition Herman
[13:38] herman Bergson: I think our next chapter will be to investigate how our rationality handles the intuitions we just discussed....
[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:38] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: But that will be a subject for future lectures....
[13:39] Qwark Allen: will be interesting for sure
[13:39] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your interest and participation again....
[13:39] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!
[13:39] Qwark Allen: its not fair
[13:39] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:39] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): yes will be interesting
[13:39] Qwark Allen: class just ended
[13:39] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ty herman
[13:39] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:39] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:40] Jane Fossett: thank you!
[13:40] Vadaman: Thanks Herman.
[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!!
[13:40] Guestboook van tipjar stand: bergfrau Apfelbaum donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty, herman
[13:40] Qwark Allen: thank you
[13:40] herman Bergson: My pleasure...
[13:40] Qwark Allen: :-)))

433: The Art Not to be an Egoist 8


I ended my previous lecture with saying:"At this point we could formulate the hypothesis that human nature is in essence characterized by the urge to cooperate, which implies the emergence of good and evil."

This sounds rather positive. It would be good, if we could find some more evidence for this observation. In that respect Darwin himself gave us a good hint.

"Anyone who understands the baboon, would contribute more to  metaphysics than John Locke." once the young Darwin predicted in his notebook of 1838.

Studying and observing the behavior of primates is in fact a way of observing the behavior of our ancestors. A man, who became famous with that, is the now 64 years old Frans de Waal.

(born 29 October 1948), a Dutch primatologist and ethologist, professor of Primate Behavior in the Emory University psychology department in Atlanta, Georgia, and director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center,

author of numerous books including "Chimpanzee Politics" and "Our Inner Ape". His research centers on primate social behavior, including conflict resolution, cooperation, inequity aversion, and food-sharing.

The apes that he observed possessed an amazing intelligence. They were able to agree with each other in very sophisticated ways. 

They had a sense of social rules. They were able to see themselves as  a "self" apart from others. And they had a memory that allowed them to relate events of the past and present to each other.

Together with his colleague dr. Sarah Brosnan de Waal started a series of behavioral experiments with Capuchin monkeys. They are intelligent, peaceful and have a very complex social life.

Creatures that can detect intentions, cherish expectations. Depending on what  I do, another responds hostile or friendly to me. 

Commonly, these reactions do not hit me like a lightning bolt, for I have beforehand expected them. When I say "please", I rather expect that to me a wish is granted, as when I bark a command. 

But where do expectations come from? Do only humans have expectations or monkeys too? And can one make visible an attitude of expectation of monkeys in an experiment.?

Brosnan and de Waal wanted to find out whether Capuchin monkeys expect, that they are treated in a fair way. Do these monkeys have a real sense of FAIRNESS like humans have?

Here I can let Frans de Waal take over. You really have to see this.

Let me know when you are done….takes about three minutes.


The Discussion

[13:20:58] Lizzy Pleides: I love it
[13:21:02] Qwark Allen: ahahha so funny
[13:21:03] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hahahaha very funny
[13:21:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol this is funny
[13:21:17] herman Bergson: great isnt it....^_^
[13:21:19] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): amazing
[13:21:25] Qwark Allen: awesome
[13:21:25] Debbie Dee (framdor): delightful...
[13:21:27] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩**✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩**
[13:21:28] herman Bergson: Yes amazing....
[13:21:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Envy!
[13:22:15] Vadaman: Great!
[13:22:53] herman Bergson: Everybody back?
[13:22:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): sense of fairness
[13:22:59] Debbie Dee (framdor): im back
[13:23:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:23:04] Mick Nerido: yes
[13:23:11] Vadaman: Back
[13:23:18] herman Bergson: They did an interesting variation of the test....
[13:23:21] Chu Ann (hermine): haha
[13:23:38] herman Bergson: they put a box of grapes in full vision of both apes....
[13:23:56] herman Bergson: but both apes got only pieces of cucumber as reward....
[13:24:26] herman Bergson: It showed that the cucumber was perfectly ok with them...both got the same reward...
[13:24:31] Qwark Allen: probably a human will throw the rock to the scientist
[13:24:45] herman Bergson: The seeing of the grapes didn't influence their behavior at all
[13:25:00] Debbie Dee (framdor): QED
[13:25:08] herman Bergson: Well the monkey threw the cucumber piece ^_^
[13:25:11] herman Bergson: good start
[13:25:25] Qwark Allen: ehhehe yes , my point
[13:25:29] herman Bergson: So he was almost human Qwark...^_^
[13:25:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is QED Debbie?
[13:25:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): proven mathematically
[13:25:55] herman Bergson: Quod erat demonstrandum
[13:26:03] herman Bergson: Latin
[13:26:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you
[13:26:19] herman Bergson: This is a part of a TED lecture by Frans de Waal which takes more than 16 minutes. You better watch that in your own time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Lm49XVkGQ
[13:26:34] herman Bergson: But watch it.....!
[13:26:48] herman Bergson: Homework!
[13:26:52] herman Bergson: Next lecture we'll continue on this issue.
Thank you ^_^
[13:27:15] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ^^
[13:27:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks herman.
[13:27:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Interesting to contrast the concept of envy with 'sense of fairness'
[13:27:36] herman Bergson: My pleasure Debbbie
[13:27:36] Chu Ann (hermine): thank you herman.
[13:27:48] Vadaman: Yes, thanks Herman.
[13:27:59] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you
[13:28:08] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Thinking biblically again... the story of the unequal pay rates
[13:28:21] herman Bergson: This all seems to give us some hope about mankind......in the long run...:-)
[13:28:29] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): very nice , herman
[13:29:01] herman Bergson: That is an interesting story Merlin indeed
[13:29:11] Qwark Allen: good stuff hermann
[13:29:18] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh ty. Glad somebody was listening ;)
[13:29:32] herman Bergson: But there is a big difference....
[13:29:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes?
[13:30:03] herman Bergson: in that biblical story men were all paid the same while they all had unequal labor tasks
[13:30:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes thats the one... one guy arrived late
[13:30:28] herman Bergson: The monkeys have the same task but are paid unequal....
[13:30:37] herman Bergson: yes....
[13:30:55] herman Bergson: but got paid as if he had arrived with the others...
[13:31:09] Merlin (merlin.saxondale) nods
[13:31:12] Vadaman: Made me think about the southern european uprising.
[13:31:17] herman Bergson: interesting.....
[13:31:31] herman Bergson: In what way Vada?
[13:32:32] herman Bergson: Still thinking about Merlins remark...
[13:32:48] Vadaman: The riots. The unemploiment. The anger.
[13:33:03] herman Bergson: What would happen when both monkeys were paid a grape while only one had to return a stone?
[13:33:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): good question
[13:33:42] Vadaman: Good question indeed.
[13:33:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well the stone is only a token in this case
[13:33:58] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Maybe needs a more substantial task
[13:34:02] herman Bergson: It is work Merlin....
[13:34:18] herman Bergson: One has to work for his grape while the other gets it for free
[13:34:52] herman Bergson: Question is....
[13:35:05] herman Bergson: does the ape mind returning stones
[13:35:10] herman Bergson: that is...
[13:35:23] herman Bergson: relates it to a higher reward...like humans would do?
[13:35:43] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): it is not easy to answer, because of that simplification
[13:35:57] Debbie Dee (framdor): So, your hypothesis is that creatures that can "detect intentions and cherish expectations" develop moral and ethical values....
[13:36:03] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I could not predict...it needs another experiment
[13:36:05] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): the human comparison will be more complicated
[13:36:11] herman Bergson: You only can answer it by doing the tests with the apes
[13:36:33] Qwark Allen: i saw a bit of the link you pasted
[13:36:33] Chu Ann (hermine): right
[13:36:37] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....that is what I am thinking about....
[13:36:38] Chu Ann (hermine): that's also my opinion
[13:36:43] Qwark Allen: it will answer that question
[13:36:58] Chu Ann (hermine): k will test it with my cats tomorrow^^
[13:37:05] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol
[13:37:06] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ^
[13:37:07] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°
[13:37:07] Qwark Allen: lol
[13:37:10] herman Bergson: When the apes only are focused on the reward whatever they do, they wont protest
[13:37:18] Chu Ann (hermine): it will be a disaster i know^^
[13:37:37] herman Bergson: You need two cats for that Chu ^_^
[13:37:47] Qwark Allen: there is a test with selfish and pro social behavior
[13:37:57] Chu Ann (hermine): ok. one will be locked
[13:37:57] Qwark Allen: fun to see how it goes
[13:38:13] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark....
[13:38:42] Qwark Allen: when the monkey doesn`t receive the reward protests with the other monkey, then the other gets more selfish
[13:38:43] Chu Ann (hermine): it is not easy to see in a mind of a pe
[13:38:45] herman Bergson: in the 16 minutes video you will see more funny things....
[13:39:09] herman Bergson: No Chu, but I will get to that in the next lecture
[13:39:28] Chu Ann (hermine): ok, but thursday i have no time;-((
[13:39:35] Chu Ann (hermine): i guess i have to read the blog then
[13:39:45] herman Bergson: The text will be published in the blog always
[13:39:53] Chu Ann (hermine): good
[13:39:58] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): good to know
[13:40:25] herman Bergson: all 438 or more lectures of all projects you can find there ^_^
[13:40:35] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): uiii much to read
[13:40:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): Hermans library ;)
[13:40:51] herman Bergson: People from all over the world come at least to the page...
[13:40:58] Chu Ann (hermine): ^^
[13:41:01] herman Bergson: Whether they read it or not I don't know ^_^
[13:41:08] herman Bergson: I hope they do:-)
[13:41:23] Qwark Allen: i think so, so many interesting ideas there
[13:41:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes I have a web site with stats and you can never tell what is in the mind of the viewer
[13:41:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): I've used it
[13:41:45] herman Bergson: There on the wall..the map of the world..
[13:42:04] herman Bergson: Well....
[13:42:21] herman Bergson: Thank you all again....you are a nice class ^_^
[13:42:30] herman Bergson: See you on Thursday....
[13:42:37] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:42:41] Qwark Allen: thank you hermann
[13:42:48] Qwark Allen: very good as usual .-)))
[13:42:50] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman
[13:42:52] Chu Ann (hermine): have a lovely rest of the week all
[13:42:54] herman Bergson: My pleasure Qwark
[13:42:57] Qwark Allen: going to see the all video now
[13:43:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks herman ;) - im going to watch the homework
[13:43:07] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): have a nice week too, herman
[13:43:11] Qwark Allen: you are always so enlightening
[13:43:12] herman Bergson: Yes plz do....it is worth it
[13:43:21] Vadaman: Thanks Herman.
[13:43:31] Lizzy Pleides: have a nice evening all!
[13:43:42] Chu Ann (hermine): so bye all and see u next week^^
[13:43:44] herman Bergson: Bye Lizzy ^_^
[13:43:49] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): by lizzy
[13:43:49] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): thanks Herman :)

Thursday, November 29, 2012

432: The Art Not to be an Egoist 7


Surveying the ideas, which were presented to you in the past few lectures, I really dare to say that we have made real progress.

Our central question is whether morality is a part of human nature or not. And related to that question we wonder how morality works.

We all want to be good and yet we do bad things now and then, small ones and big ones. What to think about that?

At least we learnt that something like an absolute Good like Plato suggested, does not exist. On the other hand neither are we amoral, selfish beasts, like Hobbes suggested.

That ethics is just a thin layer of culture which Herder or Lorenz thought isn't probable either. The cooperative nature of all kinds of animals and the human being too, as Kropotkin had observed, seems to contradict that.

It is interesting to see how this balancing between individualism and collectivism through history also expresses itself in our political systems.

On the one hand we see extreme individualism in liberalism, when you think of the ideas of Ayn Rand, on the other hand extreme collectivism, which we have seen in communist countries.

And all this as an answer to the question: what is the essence of human nature? Fascinating. So, let us continue our quest.

Contrary to all other animals, we have one great tool to communicate this subject: our language. But why are we debating on ethics? Why can't we get a clear and unambiguous theory on good and bad?

Why didn't man succeed in developing a language with words for everything? Why is our language not that accurate? 

A philosopher who was pretty annoyed by these questions was Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889 - 1951). He spent a lot of effort on cleaning up language and attemptinh to remove ambiguities. He gave up.

In the period 1922 - 1936 a whole group of philosophers struggled with the ambiguity and inaccuracy of language: The Vienna Circle was the name of the group.

Logical analysis is the method of clarification of philosophical problems; it makes an extensive use of symbolic logic. The task of philosophy lies in the clarification—through the method of logical analysis—of problems and assertions, was their point of view.

In spite of the development of a number of logical languages, they never succeeded in developing the desired precision language. Why didn't they succeed?

One reason may be that we don't need such a precision language in our daily life. If we would need such a language , it would be in sciences.

The basic goal of the Vienna Circle was to have a language, in which every statement unambiguously describes an observable state of affairs in reality, a kind of one on one relation.

But reality isn't so unambiguous. I can perfectly describe a molecule, but when asked to describe friendship or love, trying to capture those concepts in words, we have a problem.

And what happens, when I try to translate my words into another language? In German you have the word "Bewustsein", but in English you can use "consciousness" or "awareness" to translate it. Two words for one !?!

The goal of the Vienna Circle was to put an end to the eternal discussion on truth. And this truth had to be 100% empirically established by means of an unambiguous language.

Then why did mankind only came up with this plan in 1922? Why had it not been working on it in the past 60.000 years for instance?

The answer to this question could be surprisingly simple: language was never invented to be an instrument of truth. The problem of truth was in human evolution not its first and most important problem.

Communication in a group is in the first place focused on understanding each other. Understanding in the sense of knowing what the other means and in the second place grasping intentions and expectations of other group members.

To be continued next Thursday...


The Discussion

[13:29:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks herman
[13:29:11] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and all very involved
[13:29:17] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman
[13:29:22] seekerp: thank u
[13:29:35] Mouse Moorlord (mouse.moorlord): thank you
[13:29:41] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): thanks herman
[13:29:43] Vadaman: Thank you.
[13:29:45] herman Bergson: Ohh..I forgot to mention a new gadget...
[13:29:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): Logic fails because things we experience are on a continuous scale, not on or off.
[13:29:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): ?
[13:30:10] herman Bergson: Next time...:-)
[13:30:19] Bejiita Imako: new gadget?
[13:30:24] herman Bergson: Logic is good for science...
[13:30:41] herman Bergson: and for decent argumentations...
[13:30:51] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but difficult in communicating every minute
[13:31:01] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes provided the question is well defined.
[13:31:11] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:31:43] herman Bergson: The funny thing is that mankind never invented language for truth finishing or science in the first place....
[13:31:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): you can ask " is it red" and get many opinions, for example. And what of love? how much?
[13:32:24] herman Bergson: Eventually philosophical questions arose....but that was only after 60.0000 years
[13:32:34] herman Bergson: - 0
[13:32:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its hard to be philosophical when you are just surviving I imagine.
[13:33:14] herman Bergson: That is the point Debbie....
[13:33:25] Bejiita Imako: hmm that might be true indeed
[13:33:28] Kime Babenco: Last Ice Age ended 12 000 BP and lasted 90 000 years...
[13:33:39] herman Bergson: Does someone know the novel of Jean Auel... The clan of the Cave Bear?
[13:33:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:34:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its once co-operation led to free time that philosophy emerged?
[13:34:09] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes
[13:34:11] herman Bergson: In that novel she describes two kinds of people....
[13:34:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)
[13:34:31] herman Bergson: The clan...more or less neaderthalers I guess
[13:34:49] herman Bergson: and the homo spiens...Cro-magnon I guess...
[13:35:06] herman Bergson: The Clan didnt use verbal language...
[13:35:17] herman Bergson: their main language was gestures...
[13:35:34] herman Bergson: while the homo sapiens used speech...
[13:35:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am always sceptic about learning from works of fiction
[13:36:04] herman Bergson: The idea is that our language developed from gestures...
[13:36:14] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh wow i have learned a lot from fiction
[13:36:36] herman Bergson: No Merlin her work was not fiction with respect to the facts
[13:36:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): Speech is so much more than gestures, but still based on one idea - one gesture.
[13:37:05] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie and it made me thing....
[13:37:16] herman Bergson: We make gestures while we speak...
[13:37:22] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩**✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩**
[13:37:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): but with adjectives to deal with the fuzzy bits between ideas -
[13:37:38] herman Bergson: You would say...yes ok...is because we want to put emphasis on our words...
[13:37:55] herman Bergson: but why should we?
[13:38:10] herman Bergson: there is no reasonable relation
[13:38:32] herman Bergson: unless you think....language and communication started with a gesture language...
[13:38:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): Communication of ideas can be multi-media, and gestures are a channel?
[13:38:55] herman Bergson: and our gesture behavior is a remnant of that prehistoric development in evolution
[13:39:08] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh - nice extrapolation.
[13:39:13] Bejiita Imako: ah
[13:39:24] Bejiita Imako: I see
[13:39:33] Bejiita Imako: hmm thats very much possible
[13:39:43] herman Bergson: I was thinking of the flat heads of Jean Auel....and their language...
[13:39:51] Kime Babenco: I have some doubts, about old histories , from more than 1500 years ago and definitely about older than 3500 years ago... No one wrote anything down at that time... It's mostly speculation I think...
[13:40:02] herman Bergson: their evolution had come to an end...
[13:40:32] herman Bergson: Of course it is speculation Kime...
[13:40:44] herman Bergson: but not blind speculation....
[13:40:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): But based on many observations
[13:41:14] herman Bergson: on the one hand we have prehistoric finds...
[13:41:42] herman Bergson: which show that people lived in groups and made arms and pottery , used fire etc.
[13:41:57] herman Bergson: on the other hand we have the primates....
[13:42:23] herman Bergson: relatives for whom evolution stopped where the homo sapiens continued
[13:42:30] herman Bergson: like chimpansees…
[13:42:53] herman Bergson: We still are guessing...of course...
[13:42:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): could the prehistoric man speak?..even if he wanted like apes?
[13:43:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): The Cango Caves near me have been occupied for 70 000 years by small group of bushmen. The archeoligists have been working the site for 100 years now.
[13:43:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): there is a rich diversity of information
[13:43:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Dawkins reminds us that we did not evolve from chimpanzees etc, but we have a common ancestor, different from either.
[13:43:58] herman Bergson: The prehistoric man had vocal cords Beertje..so he could make vocal sounds....like apes can too nowadays
[13:44:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes but is it a language?
[13:44:33] herman Bergson: That is a complex question....
[13:44:49] herman Bergson: animals communicate by sounds and signs....
[13:44:58] herman Bergson: But these are fixed patterns....
[13:45:17] Debbie Dee (framdor): Doesn't your cat talk to you at dinner time?
[13:45:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:45:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:45:24] Bejiita Imako: yes no variation
[13:45:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol Debbie
[13:45:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): haven't a cat....
[13:45:37] herman Bergson: There must have been a moment that the homo sapiens began to vary on these fixed patterns of communication
[13:45:49] Bejiita Imako: a dogs bark for ex is just a bark, no way telling if it its happy or angry
[13:45:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): birds talk to us sometimes
[13:46:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my parrot asks me for food..in my own language
[13:46:07] Bejiita Imako: which can be dangerous in some situations
[13:46:12] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i mean in their language
[13:46:17] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): omg lol
[13:46:22] Bejiita Imako: hehee
[13:46:31] herman Bergson: I am afraid not Beertje....
[13:46:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think whales and dolphins and elephants all have reasonably encoded grunts to use
[13:46:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and dogs barks do have meanings
[13:46:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): languages for whales
[13:46:58] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not just grunts
[13:47:02] seekerp: thank u everyone very nice to meet u all
[13:47:06] herman Bergson: yes Debbie....whales seem to be true composers....never the same song....
[13:47:16] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): come thursday seekerp
[13:47:19] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): same time
[13:47:23] herman Bergson: we just don't understand them
[13:47:33] Mouse Moorlord (mouse.moorlord): thank you for that nice lessons and talk ...good bye everyone
[13:47:35] Bejiita Imako: mayee are some patterns in it but maybee hard for us to distinguish between them
[13:47:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye to mouse
[13:47:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): bye mouse and seekerp
[13:47:55] Vadaman: Bye
[13:47:56] Bejiita Imako: whales are interesting for sure
[13:47:57] herman Bergson: By Mice
[13:47:59] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they understand them tho
[13:48:08] Kime Babenco: Yes, probably, but did we really had to engrave on a disc what we don't understand from whales and send it with the voyager 2 ? It's always a risk to spread a message you don't know ..
[13:48:13] Bejiita Imako: rhey use some kind of patterns
[13:48:21] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): bye mouse and seekerp
[13:48:25] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩**✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩**
[13:48:25] Debbie Dee (framdor): Bejita, they are not talking to us...
[13:48:31] Bejiita Imako: bye mouse and seeker
[13:48:34] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right to each other!
[13:48:53] Bejiita Imako: no but its more clear that whales use some kind of language then dogs
[13:48:58] Bejiita Imako: at least for me
[13:49:06] herman Bergson: The thing is ..
[13:49:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): won't it be easier to have an universal language so we can understand each other more?
[13:49:30] herman Bergson: when consciousness kicked in language became a much more richer tool of communication...
[13:49:49] herman Bergson: The Esperanto idea Beertje?
[13:49:54] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes
[13:49:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes for instance
[13:50:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or dutch:)))
[13:50:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): whats happened to esperanto?
[13:50:07] herman Bergson: For some reason a complete failure
[13:50:12] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): doesn't catch on tho
[13:50:16] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!
[13:50:17] Kime Babenco: People can not even agree about one device of paying...
[13:50:28] Vadaman: Is there still people who know esperanto??
[13:50:28] herman Bergson: and the reason is that language is related to its cultural context...
[13:50:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): people tend too hang on to their mothers language
[13:50:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): as you see with immigrants first generation
[13:50:53] Bejiita Imako: yes it have been hard coded in the brain seems like
[13:50:54] herman Bergson: Like the Vienna Circle thought it could develop the universal language of science...
[13:50:56] Bejiita Imako: hard to chenge
[13:50:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no one understands my mothers language..not even the dutch:0
[13:51:03] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): WaaaHaHAhahAHA! AhhhhHAhahhAHhahHAH! haha!
[13:51:07] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩**✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩**
[13:51:09] Bejiita Imako: hahahahaha
[13:51:12] herman Bergson: so did think the people who believed in Esperanto
[13:51:36] Kime Babenco: Yes indeed... In Social Geography ... it was declared of being partof a specific group..; a unity...
[13:51:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Oliedegalliedenalliíenok?
[13:52:04] Bejiita Imako: what?
[13:52:06] Bejiita Imako: lol
[13:52:14] herman Bergson: You could say that Beertje...:-)
[13:52:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)giggles
[13:52:26] herman Bergson: But can we all agree to that? ^_^
[13:52:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't know:) depends...
[13:52:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): I will ;)
[13:53:03] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not me
[13:53:14] herman Bergson: Well..we can vote on it..^_^
[13:53:24] herman Bergson: Anyway….
[13:53:36] herman Bergson: thank you all for your participation again...
[13:53:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:53:46] herman Bergson: it was a nice class as usual :-)
[13:53:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you thursday
[13:53:51] Bejiita Imako: another interesting event
[13:53:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i hope
[13:53:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): Great lecture thanks herman...
[13:53:56] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^
[13:54:06] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all