979: Machiavelli...

Petrarch introduced Cicero's ideas into political discourse about 1375. They sketched the first contours of the individual, the individual man as a member of a state with a right to speak. 

  

Initially, the great northern Italian city-states harbored these kinds of ideas. By 1400, as the humanist movement began to take hold of the educated elite, 

  

Florence was one of the few remaining self-governing republics in Italy. 

  

It was by no means democratic, as a few elite families exercised disproportionate influence over the appointment of the priorate, 

   

the executive branch of government, but they never managed to gain full control over the political process. 

  

Ordinary Florentines had plenty of room to backfire, especially on contentious issues such as wars and taxes. 

  

The Medici took more and more power and influence so that by 1470 Florence had turned into an autocratic state. Machiavelli noted that the Florentines were again living in "slavery." 

   

He mentioned Christianity as one of the factors that had deprived the people of the incentives to revolt against autocrats and tyrants. 

  

He saw in ancient Rome an example of democratic freedom. His teacher in this matter was the Roman historian Livy (58 BC - 17 AD).

    

What lessons did Livy have to offer? In his answer to that question, Machiavelli reserved a leading role for the institutions 

  

that, after the class struggle between rich and poor, the elite and the common people had successfully transformed the Roman polity to protect them from the rule of kings and patricians. 

   

The Roman polity had always retained monarchical and aristocratic elements in addition to its democratic institutions. 

   

Nevertheless, Rome had been given a government of the people, and Machiavelli left no doubt that Rome had been a free state for that very reason. 

   

Machiavelli did not limit his analysis to Rome's institutional framework. He also paid close attention to social and cultural factors that had enabled Rome to flourish in freedom. 

   

He praised the religiosity of the Romans, who had imbued them with a respect for the law and their rulers, thus ensuring that their freedom never turned into anarchy. 

   

Last but not least, the Romans had also maintained socio-economic equality by keeping the treasury rich but their citizens poor. 

  

That, too, had made an important contribution to preserving freedom, as extreme differences in wealth led to neighborly strife, 

  

which would eventually lead people to turn to authoritarian rule. 

  

What we see is that when it comes to democracy and individual freedom, the same themes always come to the fore: 

  

the organization of institutions that guarantee the participation of the people, respect for the Law and, above all, the fight against far-reaching social and economic differences between individual citizens, 

   

because that gives rise to social unrest and, in extreme cases, revolts. 

  

It does not seem an exaggeration to me to state that essentially little has changed with regard to these themes. They still seem up-to-date to me and the first targets to corrupt them for aspirant autocrats.

   

Thank you for your attention again....

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Annelien de Dijn: "Freedom. An unruly history".  2020

The Discussion

[13:14] herman Bergson: To be honest....what is going on in the US today illustrates all this perfectly....

[13:15] herman Bergson: An aspirant autocrat who tries to undermine the institutions of democracy

[13:15] oola Neruda: amen

[13:15] herman Bergson: big differences between poor and rich

[13:15] herman Bergson: The call for a strong leader...

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:16] herman Bergson: just imagine that this happened exactly the same a 1000 years ago..

[13:16] herman Bergson: same process

[13:16] herman Bergson: same debates

[13:17] herman Bergson: It amazes me

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): repeat repeat repeat forever

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no change

[13:17] herman Bergson: Not really Bejiita...I still believe to see some progress

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like an old LP record gotten stuck

[13:18] Somedirtycat Saule: It is not easy to debate with different opinions here. I suggest that before bringing i the current events the subject of the speach is debated.

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well some things i surly have progressed but still

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what progress do you see Herman?

[13:19] herman Bergson: The democratic institutions are stronger

[13:19] herman Bergson: What do you mean Saule?

[13:19] Somedirtycat Saule: '[13:14:40] herman Bergson: To be honest....what is going on in the US today illustrates all this perfectly....

[13:20] herman Bergson: The subject of today is how democratic freedom is experienced....then and today

[13:21] herman Bergson: And a second matter is that there is no problem with different opinions here, I'd say

[13:21] Somedirtycat Saule: I misread something somewhere then

[13:21] herman Bergson: If you disagree with something just say so...thaht is what we are here for

[13:21] herman Bergson: Happens...

[13:22] herman Bergson: What I meant to say it, that what Machiavelli pointed out and wrote about, is happening today in the very same way

[13:23] herman Bergson: For greedom and democracy you need institutions to protect them

[13:23] herman Bergson: independent justice system, representatives chosen by voting

[13:23] herman Bergson: free elections

[13:24] herman Bergson: respect for the Law

[13:24] herman Bergson: and some socio-economical egalitarianism

[13:25] herman Bergson: which again relates to the problem of private property, which we discussed in the previous lecture

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:26] herman Bergson: you may of course disagree :-)

[13:27] Somedirtycat Saule: still your talks are interesting, Herman.

[13:27] herman Bergson: thank you

[13:27] herman Bergson: you mean, you disagree Saule?

[13:27] herman Bergson: Feel free to speak up....:-)

[13:28] Somedirtycat Saule: Not today.

[13:28] herman Bergson smiles

[13:28] herman Bergson: easy class today ^_^

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are all a bit quiet

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:29] herman Bergson: Freedom is on the line atm in the Ukraine....a country with free people...

[13:29] herman Bergson: and a neighbor who denies their freedom

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes sadly enough

[13:30] oola Neruda: I found it interesting..... because in all the art history lectures.... and I've sat through a million and even taught it... this subject did not come up

[13:30] herman Bergson: On a world scale we have few institutions to maintain peace

[13:30] oola Neruda: and, frankly, it would have put a different slant on many of the issues re: art

[13:30] oola Neruda: and artists

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:30] Sabeen Schmidt: yes the talk is over already?

[13:31] herman Bergson: not yet Sabeen :-)

[13:31] Sabeen Schmidt: biden is an autocrat?

[13:31] Somedirtycat Saule: According to some the Ukrainians are rhe rape babies to my ancestors.

[13:31] herman Bergson: no...his predecessor tried to become one

[13:31] Somedirtycat Saule: Am from Sweden

[13:31] oola Neruda: the subject was only glanced off  of... puts the Medici in quite a different light

[13:32] herman Bergson: `The Medici were autocratic politicians

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:32] herman Bergson: I guess they primarily loved money and power

[13:33] oola Neruda: yes.... but are presented as enlightened and beneficent

[13:33] herman Bergson: I still wonder why some people have such a lust for power

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed

[13:34] oola Neruda: follow the money

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to dominate entire nations and even the entire planet

[13:34] Somedirtycat Saule: The lust for power is more instinctual than intellectual

[13:34] herman Bergson: then you must have a lust for money oola....

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess its that MORE MORE MOOOORE! syndrome again

[13:34] herman Bergson: same problem

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): narcist characters

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yhe impossibility to appreciate an "enough'

[13:35] Somedirtycat Saule: So it is more of a psychological or biological topic than political or even philosophical

[13:36] herman Bergson: You could think so indeed Saule....

[13:36] oola Neruda: or to care if you are going to cause global warming with your actions....regardless that you will also be a victim of it... money comes first

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it might me

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): be

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed as long u can make money nothing else  matters

[13:36] oola Neruda: oil companies for example

[13:36] herman Bergson: The bio-psychological need for security drives man to accumulate as much as possible

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): profit profit profit

[13:37] Sabeen Schmidt: what makes people selfish then

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then that profit makes u ignore safety and BAUUUUUUM! i have deepwater horizon

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you

[13:37] herman Bergson: only making profit satisfies the feeling of safety

[13:37] oola Neruda: back to Christianity and such people as the good Samaritan...

[13:37] Somedirtycat Saule: Politics is itself actually leaning left and is in the interest of the less privileged

[13:37] Sabeen Schmidt: poor self regulation, operating in a bubble that makes them copy others ( lack of oversight)

[13:38] herman Bergson: What makes people selfish.....good question

[13:38] Somedirtycat Saule: The powerful and wealthy can live without politics

[13:38] herman Bergson: fear...

[13:38] herman Bergson: the need for security and safety

[13:38] Somedirtycat Saule: So left and right politics is a false dichotomy

[13:38] Sabeen Schmidt: why lobby Washington then silly :P

[13:39] herman Bergson: Right = selfishness first ....left = solidarity first

[13:39] Sabeen Schmidt: right

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:39] Somedirtycat Saule: Specially when I see leftist supporting Ukraine in the current conflict

[13:39] Sabeen Schmidt: eh they will lose :(

[13:40] herman Bergson: I have no idea what will come out of that conflict....Unpredictable....

[13:40] Somedirtycat Saule: Herman, No politics = selfishness first

[13:40] herman Bergson: That peculiar speech of Putin last night....his history of the Ukraine...

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)

[13:41] herman Bergson: No politics = selfishness first = Thomas Hobbes...homo homini lupus

[13:41] Somedirtycat Saule: Putin is a really good leader. A enemy you should respect

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ?

[13:42] herman Bergson: From his point of view....Russia...he might be indeed Saule

[13:42] Somedirtycat Saule: yes

[13:42] herman Bergson: But in realtion to the rest of the world?????

[13:42] herman Bergson: His support for Assad in Syria for instance....

[13:42] Somedirtycat Saule: That is a big question

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well he is evil so

[13:43] Somedirtycat Saule: What is the rest of the world?

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the evil dudes stick together

[13:43] herman Bergson: evry country that is not Russia, Saule :-))

[13:43] Somedirtycat Saule: US hegonomy is much more evil imho

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed herman

[13:43] herman Bergson: I guess Trump put an end to US hegemony

[13:44] herman Bergson: The US has lost a lot of credibility among the democratic countries

[13:44] SAHUD 10.0.34 BETA (WEAR ME!): Enter SIM: Laly Carami

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): meanwhile trump launches his own social media network where he and his followers can plan for the next storming of Capitolum

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh

[13:44] Somedirtycat Saule: US have been evil last 60 years

[13:44] Sabeen Schmidt: and us with brexit XD

[13:44] herman Bergson: at least in my opinion

[13:45] Sabeen Schmidt: trump wont ge anywhere with that

[13:45] Somedirtycat Saule: And you worry about the clown trump and don't see the shitty Democratic Party? lol

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully not

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its chaos everything as i see and it hopefully will sort out soon

[13:45] herman Bergson: Explain Saule. please

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u can only hope

[13:46] Somedirtycat Saule: Its to big subject but corruption is a good start.

[13:46] herman Bergson: It is....

[13:46] oola Neruda whispers: I see the republicans as the corrupt ones

[13:47] herman Bergson: They go where to money is indeed oola

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): money money money!

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): follow the money

[13:48] herman Bergson: Do you have some clear cut examples of what the Democratic party makes such a shitty party. Saule...at least that?

[13:49] herman Bergson: Tons of them of Republicans are always in the news

[13:49] Somedirtycat Saule: So why this salt about Russia and Putin. I can understand Particle as he is a Swede. We got this neurotic fear of Russia.

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): If Putin start a massive war in Ukraine what will happen then?

[13:50] oola Neruda: I don't think our leaders poison of kill off their opponents... for one

[13:50] herman Bergson: it IS a totalitarian state, Saule....I fear all totalitarian states....they are a fundamental threat ro\ our freedom

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): entire EU is worried

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman

[13:51] Somedirtycat Saule: Russians seems to like him more than Jeltsin

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Putin is as anti freedom as u can get, he captures and murders all of his opponents, true russian stule

[13:51] herman Bergson: I disagree with you oola...

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to try get the old soviet back

[13:52] Somedirtycat Saule: Oponents seels to have accidents in US too

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the time of Soviet and WW2 is long gone,

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and lucky for that, I dont want to experience a such event ever

[13:52] oola Neruda: I've been to China and Russia.... and in both places one is warned ... WARNED.... to be careful what you ask people... about the country

[13:52] Somedirtycat Saule: Suiscided is a new term from US

[13:53] Sabeen Schmidt: oh?

[13:53] Sabeen Schmidt: why ask

[13:53] herman Bergson: What does that mean Saule?

[13:53] oola Neruda: people fear to answer

[13:54] Somedirtycat Saule: Inconvenient people die in custody.

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:54] herman Bergson: Like Epstein, Saule?

[13:54] Somedirtycat Saule: Claims to commit suicide

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): talk or ask wrong question and BAM ur dead

[13:54] Somedirtycat Saule: nods

[13:55] oola Neruda: they fear to answer the questions... for that fear

[13:55] herman Bergson: I wondered about that too Saule ^_^....have seen too many movies :-)

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:57] herman Bergson: Well.....this was the day of Machiavelli :-)

[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for the discussion....

[13:57] Somedirtycat Saule: US is more of a corporation than a country. We should start there before we call Russia a non democracy(which is tru tho)

[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Thank you Herman and class

[13:58] herman Bergson: Unless we're not yet done saving the world again.....

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one more step forward at least

[13:58] oola Neruda: I agree there... it is a corporation... and it is unfair in that way

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we try

[13:58] oola Neruda: lobbiests are ... kljsaglkkjr

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa indeed u could call it that i guess

[13:59] Sabeen Schmidt: de we even talk of machiavelli

[13:59] herman Bergson: That is what George Carlin said to  his public....they own you....this rich elite...and corporations :-)

[13:59] Sabeen Schmidt: well hes dead now

[13:59] oola Neruda: Senator Whitehouse called the Senate ... the house of Mammon.... to their faces... because of the lobbyists

[13:59] Sabeen Schmidt: he wont like whats happening here

[13:59] Sabeen Schmidt: marmon?

[14:00] herman Bergson: Mammon is the God of Money

[14:00] oola Neruda: mammon

[14:00] herman Bergson: Let's continue our debate next Thursday :-)

[14:00] Sabeen Schmidt: hah

[14:00] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[14:00] Sabeen Schmidt: half of them are paid for anyway

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

978: Private property....

 According to Cicero true law is right reason in harmony with nature and nature is the divine design, that is the foundation of our existence,

  

How homo sapiens knows this, I don't know, but it may have to do with common sense, Having every issue decided by the right of the strongest, isn't beneficial for a peaceful community.

  

Coming to an agreement, sharing resources, being reasonable.... I think homo sapiens has learned a lot about himself during evolution, 

   

so that he has discovered a pattern in his behavior, which leads to living in a peaceful community. Maybe from that experience, he has deduced this idea of a divine design.

  

This led to the description of the individual as we saw in the previous lecture: the truth-seeking, reasonable individual, aware of time and causality.

   

This gave Cicero’s philosophy a strong sense of individualism. This is most evident in his approach to one of the most characteristic features of the individual: private property. 

  

Agreeing with the Stoics, Cicero believed that God gave the world to man for his own use. However this does not mean that we share everything in common, 

  

for Cicero argued that every creature has a tendency to preserve itself, but the difference between human and beast lies within man’s capacity to plan for the future. 

  

Thus, private property is important and necessary as it allows people to live in peace. Every person is expected to appropriate for themselves and their family what they need to survive. 

  

Cicero held that one of the reasons people united in the state of nature was in order to preserve what was already in their possession. 

  

For Cicero, property has always existed, even in the state of nature, i.e., in the absence of a governmental body. 

  

Cicero did not claim that ownership of property is a natural right, but rather believed that it was established through a mixture of convention and consent. 

  

Even though property is not a natural right, it is a logical extension of our nature. One of the main features of Cicero’s natural law theory is the concept of “to each his due.”   

 

If the state is authentic in its conduct, adhering to the principles of natural law, that is, to reason, then it will formalize and protect what each person has legitimately appropriated from nature.

  

How these ideas survived the centuries we see, for instance, in the United States. America’s Founders understood clearly that private property is the foundation not only of prosperity but of freedom itself. 

  

Thus, through the common law, state law, and the Constitution, they protected property rights, the rights of people to acquire, use, and dispose of property freely. 

   

Private property has become one of the basic rights of the individual and almost the symbol of his freedom. The most extreme view is perhaps, that private property is untouchable: hands off....this is MINE.

  

Of course, this isn't a tenable position in society, but in our capitalist system freedom means to have the freedom to accumulate wealth without a limit.

   

However, this private property also leads to the growing gap between the poor and rich in our world and especially between who has and who hasn't political power.

  

And the "individual" with an unlimited amount of private wealth doesn't need to be just a person. It also can be a big company.

   

You will understand that the relationship between private property and the right to liberty if you think for a moment, turns into one big political hornet's nest.

   

To give you an example: Charles and David Koch, American billionaire businessmen, long claimed to belong to a system of belief based on the freedom of the individual, 

  

unimpeded trade and lives lived free from the intrusion of tax, drafts, business regulations, welfare support, and laws designed to curb free expression. 

  

To that end, in particular, they participated in financing the Tea Party revolution (2009), an American fiscally conservative political movement within the Republican Party.

  

Thank you for your attention again....the floor is yours....

  

 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Annelien de Dijn: "Freedom. An unruly history".  2020

The Discussion

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:27] oola Neruda: thinking of slavery

[13:27] herman Bergson: The concept of freedom to accumulate private property unlimited is questionable

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i guess the owners did not read cicero

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the richer u are the more you should also share. For ex if i made millions and millions i wopuld donate at least wome of these to global welfare and similar. I would accumulate for sure but just what i felt i would really need

[13:28] herman Bergson: Let alone to have human beings as private property

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the rich instead even evade taxes putting all their wealth in tax paradises

[13:28] herman Bergson: It is not THAT simple Bejiita....

[13:28] oola Neruda: thinking of lobbyists

[13:29] herman Bergson: If you posses billions and you donate them to.....??????

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yo whom or what???

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some here do herman

[13:29] oola Neruda: or buy favors

[13:29] herman Bergson: That is a highly political matter

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Gates

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): for example

[13:29] herman Bergson: The Koch Brothers do

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gates donate so im ok with him he contributes to others

[13:29] herman Bergson: and Gates, yes

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there aare a whole group that signed an agreement

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to donate over a certain amount

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and they do

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): every year

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a good thing

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which is also to their benefit

[13:30] herman Bergson: But those rich people that donate influence society, but aren't democratically elected....

[13:30] oola Neruda: there is a book... report from iron mountain... a bit outdated because it is Viet Nam War period... but makes a point

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the important thing is to not be like MINE MINE ALL MINE ONLY MINE

[13:31] herman Bergson: Those rich people should only donate to the democratically elected government of their country, I'd say

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Warren Buffett, the third richest man in the world, also the most charitable – he has donated more than 55% ($46.6 billion) of his wealth to philanthropic causes. Denise Coates, the best-paid woman in the world, is the most philanthropic female billionaire, publicly donating around 2.7% ($120 million) of her earnings to charitable causes.

[13:32] herman Bergson: All they money the earned they took from society...so return it

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:33] herman Bergson: What do they influence with these donations?

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): another thing is how u earn your wealth, like Jeff Bezos sacrificed his employees to a tornado for profit

[13:33] herman Bergson: Like the Koch Brothers financed the Tea Party...and look what it has brought us

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ouch yes

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): NO U CANT LEAVE

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): SMAAASSH

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and everyone gone

[13:34] oola Neruda: Senator Whitehouse called the senate menmbers... the house of mammon... because of bribes from lobbying

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(

[13:34] herman Bergson: Such donators rule the world, not us the peole

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)

[13:35] herman Bergson: so private property is not just some objective something.....

[13:35] herman Bergson: It has big political consequences...the way we define it....

[13:35] herman Bergson: For instance.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: Who  owns the earth.....the soil....the ground we walk on?

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): soon someone want to own the moon

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): psss

[13:36] herman Bergson: That really scared me Bejiita...that prospect....

[13:36] oola Neruda: who owns the air... namely the future... re: climate change

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed its crazy

[13:37] oola Neruda: or the means of putting those pollutants into the air... like oil rigs...etc

[13:37] herman Bergson: There is a lost of valuable raw material to find there....

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but people find ways to make money and as long we continue find new ways to do that the moon is in danger

[13:37] herman Bergson: Who owns the moon?????

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): among other things

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): "Remember you are just an extra in everyone else's play." Franklin Roosevelt said

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing is spared everything can be sold for profit

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some one will try to claim it for sure

[13:38] herman Bergson: Just think about that for a minute nad it gives you the shivers

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its crazy for sure

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:38] herman Bergson: Think so too

[13:39] herman Bergson: John Locke said, the land a man can work on in one day he may call his property...

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah the land

[13:39] herman Bergson: With that idea the immigrants in the US went West.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: and started farming there

[13:40] oola Neruda: and killed the native Americans who were on that land

[13:40] herman Bergson: taking land that was inhabited by other people

[13:40] herman Bergson: that is a bizar aspect of private property creating

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:41] herman Bergson: The more you think about private property and the freedom to do with it as you like, the more complicated it becomes

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): rigth

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right that is

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly

[13:42] herman Bergson: that means....we need a society, reason and common sense to decide how to share what we call property

[13:42] oola Neruda: and russia surrounding his neighbor with troops and equipment.... whose property?????

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Putin's cause he want to recreate Soviet

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): fingers crossed it is going away

[13:43] herman Bergson: Bizar oola....Ukraine is a sovereign state....how can you invade that, unless as a crime agains "private property"

[13:43] oola Neruda: i mean... it is not Russia's to claim

[13:44] herman Bergson: Just the idea that you have the right to do so....What right has a Putin have?

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in his mind

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Putin don't care if he would so nuke the planet he shall have soviet back

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): scary guy

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): really scary

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or i don't know how far he is prepared to go but nothing seems to stop him so far and his crazy idea

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all opponents jailed ect

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or even murdered

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well, I don't know....P can calculate too...and the costs are mountain high for an invasion in many respects

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully he will come to his senses, we can only hope this will sort out

[13:46] herman Bergson: Just imagine how much it must have cost to move all those troops

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:47] oola Neruda: and hundreds or thousands of private property owners...who must band together... as if it were any person who was being threated thus ... throughout history

[13:47] herman Bergson: war is not for free....

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it on the other hand seems that when it comes to bombs and destruction no cost is too high,

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everything else is too expennsive but not the will to blow each other up

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats scary

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): war is so unnecessary

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess it all comes down to power and world domination

[13:48] herman Bergson: the problem is that the bombs and rockets they use now are already paid for

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that drive

[13:49] herman Bergson: Problem starts when it becomes a prolonged war

[13:49] oola Neruda: back to the moon... first come first served??????? who will "own the moon?"

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): to be determined

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some greedy bastard will try claiming it, Bezos maybee

[13:49] oola Neruda: no current owners to kill off

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he have already been to space

[13:49] herman Bergson: Thought about that too, oola...like  children we are....I WAS FIRST !!! ^_^

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly

[13:50] herman Bergson: In fact we had the same problem with the North and South  pole

[13:50] oola Neruda: nods

[13:51] herman Bergson: Who owns the top of the earth?

[13:51] oola Neruda: oil and coal companies

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep i guess

[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: back then, monkeys were sent into space. now it's the rich

[13:51] oola Neruda: just ask them

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:51] herman Bergson: Same species Bergie ^+^

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and a lot wiser

[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: they even pay

[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: grins

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just highly evolved, on the other hand We put the monkeys in space they did not decide themselves I WANT TO GO TO THE MOON OOOH OHH

[13:52] herman Bergson: I don't know how you think about it...

[13:52] herman Bergson: but I really have to think it over: What is private property?

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and what can u own

[13:53] herman Bergson: yes..

[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: now the monkeys are protected because the rich exist

[13:53] herman Bergson: yeah  they are safe now....:-))

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): until Bolzonaro have cut down Amazons

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and sold the monkeys for profit

[13:54] herman Bergson: They got new jobs in the pharma and cosmetic labs to contribute to the accumulation of private property of the rich

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully that will not happen

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: "Our Inventory" of this world is owned by Linden Lab

[13:55] oola Neruda: smiles

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its their servers and system

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the creators

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed its not open source

[13:55] herman Bergson: Well...for today I 'd like to end with wishing you good luck with all your private property :-) and just think it over sometime....:-)

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we still get taxed on our private property too

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (hugs my workstation computer)

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:56] herman Bergson: Yes Bergie....pure socialism....!

[13:56] oola Neruda: is it private property if you have to pay rent

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the chocolate box

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): before throwing out some chocos for everyone to share

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): here u go

[13:56] herman Bergson: The  house is, but it isn't yours oola

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and great class again

[[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:57] herman Bergson: Ok....

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki where now?

[13:57] herman Bergson: Time to relax...

[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

977: First steps in Individualism....

 The idea of political freedom, which means not being enslaved by a tyrant or some king, but free to decide on your own political situation had been absent for more than a millennium.

   

The scholars of the Renaissance re-discovered the philosophy and wisdom of the ancient Greeks and Romans, one of which was Cicero, revived by Petrarca (1304 -1374).

   

It is amazing to see how a single man introduces old political philosophies to the discourse of his time 

  

and that these ideas have such an impact, that they shape the ensuing history of Europe.

   

Cicero was not an atheist. On the contrary, since he was influenced by contemporary Stoics,

  

Cicero believed that there was a divine reason which governed every aspect of the universe, as I mentioned in the previous lecture.

  

And as I said before, for Cicero, this divine mind designed and ordered the universe. 

  

He asserted that all things are implanted with a function and end towards which they are directed by the dictates of their own nature;  

   

this is called law. To Cicero, “law in the proper sense is right reason in harmony with nature.”

In other words, we are morally subjugated to the laws of nature.

  

We differ from animals due to our possession of the interrelated faculties of reason and speech. Reason allows us to perform four main functions. 

  

Firstly, it enables us to infer causal relationships between external objects. We do not just see that dominos fall, but rather we understand that they fall as part of a chain of events. 

  

Secondly, reason equips us to remember events, thus allowing us to accumulate knowledge and increase our understanding of the world throughout our life. 

  

Thirdly, our capacity for reason allows us to moderate our behavior; unlike animals who are slaves to their passions, humans can act civilly around others and be considerate.

    

Lastly, and most importantly from Cicero’s perspective, is humanity’s quest for truth: “above all, the search after truth and its eager pursuit are peculiar to man.

  

” We have the urge to uncover the divine order of the universe in all fields of life, whether it be through logic, astronomy, mathematics, or philosophy.

   

Each human is endowed with two personas. The “first persona,” which is common to all people, incorporates our capacity for speech and reason. 

  

Cicero believed that reason is the highest good, for “what is there, I will not say in man, but in the whole of heaven and earth, more divine than reason?” 

  

The “second persona” is individual to every person. It is composed of our talents, our personal tastes, and our respective duties assigned to us based upon our individual abilities. 

   

This is the "persona" derived from Cicero's works and introduced in the discourse of his time: the description of a free person, that shapes his life according to reason.

  

This may be regarded as the first steps in the individualism, that nowadays dominate our culture in most places, 

  

the transition from sheep under a good shepherd to an individual guided by his reason.

    

Thank you for your attention again...the floor is yours.

  

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Annelien de Dijn: "Freedom. An unruly history".  2020

The Discussion

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:18] herman Bergson: I always have wondered where this individualism in our culture came from....

[13:19] oola Neruda: some of us need a good shepherd.....

[13:19] herman Bergson: many cultures don't know this western individualism

[13:19] oola Neruda: having been a teacher, myself

[13:19] herman Bergson: there the group, tribe or family is the pivot of the social structures

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:20] herman Bergson: But it must have originated among the Greeks

[13:21] herman Bergson: Cicero admired the Greeks and introduced it into Roman thinking

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well sounds like a good origin point for sure as with the ideas of democracy they go hand in hand sort of

[13:22] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita

[13:22] oola Neruda: thinking of the anti-vaxers... tribalism

[13:22] herman Bergson: One man one vote needs some understanding of individualism

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes oola....those old atavistic behaviors haven't disappeared

[13:23] herman Bergson: We still love the US verses THEM thinking

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least some of us do

[13:24] herman Bergson: It is a matter of priorities, it seems....

[13:24] herman Bergson: yo what do you want to belong to?

[13:24] herman Bergson: Your fasmili

[13:24] herman Bergson: Some group

[13:24] Somedirtycat Saule: Woke ppl seems not to endowed with Ciceros two distinctions from animals as much as they think they are lol

[13:24] herman Bergson: SOme religion

[13:24] oola Neruda: "nobody can tell me what to do"

[13:24] herman Bergson: are primarily and in first place to yourself....?

[13:25] herman Bergson: or

[13:26] herman Bergson: the concept of freedom is closely connected with individuality

[13:28] oola Neruda: trauma... lots of trauma... will help a person to find what is good in life..... the safety, kindness, respect... etc. that allow one to feel ... ok

[13:28] herman Bergson: Beginning in the Renaissance individualism will become the leading principle in the social organization of society

[13:28] oola Neruda: falling flat on your face will also help at times

[13:28] oola Neruda: been there... done it all

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess

[13:28] herman Bergson: Saule was testing it, oola:-)

[13:28] oola Neruda: to me... that is woke

[13:29] herman Bergson: I have no idea what this woke ado really is...

[13:29] herman Bergson: I read the weirdest things about it

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe nobody knows

[13:30] oola Neruda: depends on your point of view

[13:30] herman Bergson: sometimes I get the impression that white people have  to excuse themselves for being white...that it makes them guilty of whatever

[13:31] oola Neruda: most of them don't feel guilty

[13:31] Somedirtycat Saule: It's like the political version of religious cults.

[13:31] herman Bergson: should be woke ??

[13:32] oola Neruda: who is right?

[13:32] Somedirtycat Saule: Think it comes out of Frankfurt School.

[13:32] oola Neruda: opinion

[13:32] herman Bergson: You think so Saule

[13:32] herman Bergson: I thought it was a typical political correct American idea

[13:32] Alejandra Loza 24c (kotori24c) is offline.

[13:33] Somedirtycat Saule: that too

[13:33] oola Neruda: opinion

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well...maybe one day I'll wake up and say..I woke :-)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (sets alarm bell for Herman)

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:34] herman Bergson: You always can google on "woke" and learn about it...guess I'll do that

[13:35] herman Bergson: Thank you Bejiita ^_^

[13:35] Somedirtycat Saule: It looks strange when american Universities limit free speach that they really need and if some 'anti vaxxers' debate them they should easily win. But no. We ges Bolsjeviks.

[13:35] herman Bergson: I guess we are done for today...nothing controversial

[13:36] Somedirtycat Saule: Woke is hardly individualism, to connect to the subject

[13:36] herman Bergson: I'll check it out, Saule

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:37] herman Bergson: Unless someone still has a question or remark...?

[13:37] herman Bergson: If not....

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:37] herman Bergson: Thank you all again......

[13:38] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a good one again

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Woke (/ ˈ w oʊ k / WOHK) is an English adjective meaning 'alert to racial prejudice and discrimination' that originated in African-American Vernacular English (AAVE). Beginning in the 2010s, it came to encompass a broader awareness of social inequalities such as sexism, and has also been used as shorthand for left-wing ideas involving identity politics and social justice, such as the notion ...

[13:38] oola Neruda: I apologize if i hurt somebody's feelings

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): found it on Wiki

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok

[13:38] oola Neruda: I just believe in being kind to others.

[13:38] herman Bergson: Interesting Beertje

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a good thing oola

[13:39] oola Neruda: i know what is it like to be treated as a .... whatever...

[13:39] oola Neruda: and do not want to do that to others

[13:40] oola Neruda: they are all ... everywhere... skin, bones etc. just like me

[13:40] herman Bergson: the problem is in the brain , oola :-)

[13:40] oola Neruda: that is why i said war teaches us how to act

[13:40] oola Neruda: you been there... done that... you thnk it over

[13:41] oola Neruda: do unto others... as you would have them do unto you.... to quote a famous source

[13:41] herman Bergson: the Golden Rule....Kant already  supported it

[13:42] herman Bergson: Bit unfortunately the rule isn't waterproof

[13:42] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example

[13:43] herman Bergson: You don't lie to others and the rule says that thence others shouldn't lie to you too

[13:43] herman Bergson: but suppose your friend knocks on your door

[13:44] herman Bergson: the KGB or some assassin is chacing him.....

[13:44] herman Bergson: You hide your friend and the KGB knocks at your door....

[13:44] herman Bergson: They ask...is your friend here?

[13:45] herman Bergson: If you don't lie they will kill your friend

[13:45] herman Bergson: If you lie you do something you wish others won't do to you either

[13:45] Marja Haven-Zeimer (ladyy.haven) is online.

[13:45] oola Neruda: what is the higher truth?

[13:46] herman Bergson: the rule says that you shouldn't lie

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): protecting your friend

[13:46] herman Bergson: you have to lie to protect the life of your friend who is innocent

[13:47] Somedirtycat Saule: You could spice that up by making your friend is hunted because something you relly dont support

[13:47] herman Bergson: you see a child....seriously hungry and almost dieing....

[13:47] oola Neruda: what if he is not innocent.... and at that, in whose eyes is he guilty or innocent?

[13:47] herman Bergson: the only way to save the child is to steal a bread

[13:48] Somedirtycat Saule: what if the child is young (name a dictator with blood on his hands)

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): better bake one:)

[13:48] oola Neruda: teaching in a very bad Chicago neighborhood... all the tiime the elementary children would aski...."is it all right to steal food if I am hungry?"

[13:49] oola Neruda: and they were hungry, indeed

[13:49] herman Bergson: The Golden rule is a nice one but not a waterproof rule for ethics unfortunately

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): depends on the situation

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what is the right thing to do

[13:49] herman Bergson: It does Bejiita

[13:50] herman Bergson: So, the rule isn't a universal rule

[13:51] herman Bergson: You need the rule + the context/situation

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if friend is innicent u like him and someone want to kill him i say lying is the right thing to do cause then the KKB are the bad guys

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): KGB

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes...

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): never let bad guys win i say

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or evil

[13:52] herman Bergson: so you need from an ethical point of view some extra standards and norms

[13:52] Somedirtycat Saule: What if your friend did something really bad?

[13:52] oola Neruda: and what if it is a relative...

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it can get VERY complicated indeed

[13:52] Somedirtycat Saule: Bothe him and KGB are bad

[13:52] herman Bergson: there you go.....

[13:53] herman Bergson: Thst is a bit the problem with this divine reason that organizes the universe.....

[13:53] herman Bergson: and the believe in natural law for the individual

[13:54] herman Bergson: If these laws really existed we wouldn't have problems like Saule brings forward for instance...

[13:54] oola Neruda: back to experience of being "hurt".... it is a good guide for caring for others... i you listen to it instead of reacting with revenge

[13:54] herman Bergson: Ethics would be a clear cut thing

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): revenge is never a solution

[13:55] Somedirtycat Saule: Lot of ppl feel their rights been violated

[13:56] oola Neruda: how seriously

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): violence feeding violence feeding violence

[13:56] herman Bergson: Indeed Saule...especially in these days with all the COVID restrictions

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats why we have these shootings among other things

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): between drug gangs revenging each other

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): BOOOM BLAM BLAM

[13:57] oola Neruda: do the anti vaxers have the right to put others in danger??? whose rights are more important.... health or sickness/possible death

[13:57] Somedirtycat Saule: nods but far from limited tio that

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed trying to sabotage and such

[13:57] herman Bergson: it is a consequence of our current hyper individualism

[13:58] Somedirtycat Saule: Is your impression of the problem with anti vaxxers based in reality?

[13:58] oola Neruda: do unto others as you would have them do unto you

[13:58] oola Neruda: have you watched people die?

[13:59] oola Neruda: i have sat at two deathbeds... it ain't pretty

[13:59] Somedirtycat Saule: you are arguing with emotions

[13:59] oola Neruda: and you seem insulted by reason

[14:00] herman Bergson frowns

[14:00] oola Neruda: even facts

[14:00] Somedirtycat Saule: emotions and reason is not same as far I know

[14:00] herman Bergson: That may be questionable, Saule

[14:01] herman Bergson: We love binary thinking....

[14:01] oola Neruda: and, with several doctors ind nurses in the family..... i go with the medical facts

[14:01] Somedirtycat Saule: well, we can perhaps find examples

[14:01] herman Bergson: either this or that

[14:02] herman Bergson: When you give a reason for something it also has an emotional value and connotation

[14:02] herman Bergson: reason and emotion are not two separate entities

[14:02] oola Neruda: do we not have a responsibility to others in this life

[14:02] Somedirtycat Saule: One fact that seems forgotten is that vaccinated get covid without symptoms and spread it too.

[14:03] herman Bergson: true

[14:03] oola Neruda: anti maskers are in the mix

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[14:03] oola Neruda: do unto others...etc

[14:03] herman Bergson: Vaccinations isn't meant to prevent spreading..it is meant to keep you out of the hospital

[14:04] Somedirtycat Saule: exact, and there falls oola's argumentation

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it protects YOU

[14:04] oola Neruda: it also helps to prevent spreading when you have fewer out there doing the spreading

[14:04] herman Bergson: other measures like keeping distance, wearing masks, avoid dense crowds are meant to prevent spreading

[14:04] Somedirtycat Saule: nods

[14:05] herman Bergson: so..if antivaxxers stick to such rules it is ok with me

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if im vaccinated but have the virus and meet someone not vaccinated i can still make that person deadly sick

[14:05] Somedirtycat Saule: Some multiple vaccinated think 'I don't need to do that as I got my shots'

[14:05] herman Bergson: when they get COVID and end up in the hospital...their bad luck

[14:06] herman Bergson: Then they are not correctly informed about the function of vaccination, Saule...or just stupid :-)

[14:06] oola Neruda: there are scientific reasons for multiple shots... boosters.... doctors and scientists are not huxters

[14:07] herman Bergson: The reason I just mentioned

[14:07] oola Neruda: i have a scientist as a husband... you would not believe the machinations they go through to be correct...

[14:07] Somedirtycat Saule: A friend with a bad disease recently went to hospital with complications that the doctors never seen. She got her shots. She is not online today.

[14:08] oola Neruda: which is also self serving because if they are wrong... then their reputations is )(*

[14:08] oola Neruda: there are many people who have complications PLUS covid....

[14:09] herman Bergson: those are the vulnerable people

[14:09] oola Neruda: in fact, pre-existing problems are dangerous arournd covid... all the more reason for others to be considerate and get their shots

[14:10] Somedirtycat Saule: My father who got three shots just got diagnosed with heart defisiensy

[14:10] Somedirtycat Saule: well cant spell that

[14:10] oola Neruda: which might be dangerous for him if covid goes on top of it

[14:10] herman Bergson: was almost correct Saule :-)

[14:11] herman Bergson: Like it is for me ^_^

[14:11] herman Bergson: Those shots won't save me....sticking to the COVID restriction rules does

[14:11] oola Neruda: pre-existing conditions make it worse

[14:12] Somedirtycat Saule: nods. But agression against those who wait with the shots untill they get all fact of it before they take them is untastefull imho

[14:12] herman Bergson: At least I survided these two years ^_^

[14:12] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because now when many more are vaccinated and such it seems to at least get better again

[14:12] oola Neruda: the doctors have been on the news...giving the facts... ALL THE TIME

[14:12] oola Neruda: and it is in print... all over the place

[14:13] herman Bergson: Yes Saule...it is based   on a misconception about what the vaccine does

[14:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): restrictions were lifted last wednesday here in sweden and u dont hear all time  on radio 200 dead today 800 more dead next day ect

[14:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the doomsday messages

[14:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so i hope

[14:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its going in right direction

[14:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i have got my 3 shots

[14:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and all is ok

[14:14] herman Bergson: they  gonna lift the restrictions here in the Netherlands too coming week

[14:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but better eb careful a while longer

[14:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but im hopeful

[14:14] herman Bergson: Big feasts ahead...Carnaval!!!!!!

[14:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this might finally be over

[14:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Alaaf !!

[14:14] oola Neruda: depends upon who is vaccinated in the places you go... and the precautions taken... that helps determine the numbers

[14:14] herman Bergson: So I satay in hiding and wait and see how things will develop :-)

[14:15] Somedirtycat Saule: ood idea

[14:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shall we

[14:15] Somedirtycat Saule: +G

[14:15] herman Bergson: I dont thin so oola....

14:15] mika Vemo: Harvard University has proven that it doesn't matter if you're vaccinated or not, the death rate is only 0.02%

[14:15] mika Vemo de>es: La Universidad de Harvard ha demostrado que no importa si estás vacunado o no, la tasa de mortalidad es solo del 0,02%

[14:15] herman Bergson: vaccinated or non vaccinated...everyone can have covid and be a spreader

[14:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[14:15] herman Bergson: just what I said Mika :-)

[14:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but if vaccinated and u get it u will not get lethal sick

[14:16] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!

[14:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but more like a common cold

[[14:16] Somedirtycat Saule: Thank You

[14:16] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita

[14:16] mika Vemo: And vaccinated get the Omikron variant faster

[14:16] mika Vemo de>es: Y vacunados obtener la variante Omicron más rápido

[14:16] Somedirtycat Saule: Thanks all

[14:16] herman Bergson: Indeed Bergie....time to end our debate and verbal vaccination :-)

[14:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[14:17] herman Bergson: As I said...class dismissed ...and stay healthy :-)