1262: The Market...

 As I mentioned in a previous lecture, Jevons has some interesting things to say about markets. 

  

The central point of a market is the public exchange, where traders agree to meet and transact business.

  

A market can have a specific locality, like a stock market or a fish auction, but it is not a necessary condition. 

  

Traders can be spread over regions or even countries as long as they stay in close communication with each other.

   

"Thus, the common expression Money Market denotes no locality: it is applied to the aggregate of those bankers, capitalists, and other traders 

  

who lend or borrow money, and who constantly exchange information concerning the course of business.", as Jevons says.

  

For a properly functioning market, Jevons demands absolute transparency, or in his words, "It is also essential 

   

that the ratio of exchange between any two persons should be known to all the others. It is only so far as this community of knowledge extends that the market extends." 

   

Knowledge of the real state of supply and demand is essential to the smooth procedure of trade, 

  

and Jevons finds it quite legitimate to compel the publication of any requisite statistics. In this context, Jevons refers to in his days "recent" legislation in the Cotton Statistics Act of 1868, which required cotton mills to publish their production data: transparency enforced by law.

  

"Publicity, whenever it can thus be enforced on markets by public authority, tends almost always to the advantage of everybody except perhaps a few speculators and financiers.", as he says.

   

Let me finish with a sidetrack. Jevons has of course, much more to tell about economic thought, but this struck me. He calls it "The Law of Indifference".

   

The law: "...what is undoubtedly true, with proper explanations, that in the same open market, at any one moment, there cannot be two prices for the same kind of article."

   

In the Netherlands, there are two major retail chains, drugstores: "Het Kruidvat" and "Trekpleister". They sell the same products 

  

and are owned by the same owner. Yet, various identical products differ in price at one or the other. 

   

Of course, Jevons would say these are not the same market, but wait: if they are under one owner and sell identical goods within less than a few kilometers, is that truly different markets? Perhaps the law needs nuance.

   

So Jevons’ law isn’t false, but it depends on what you call a "market." And that’s exactly the question modern economics still wrestles with.

  

So next time you see two prices for the same thing, ask yourself: are these really the same market, or does each market treat its consumers differently?

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Glyn Davies:  The History of Money (2002)

 Jürgen Georg Backhaus: Handbook of the History

of Economic Thought (2012)

TABLE OF CONTENTS -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                                              9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                              10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                               10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                              29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

24 - Materialism                                                      7 Sept 2022   /  1011

25 - Historical Materialism                                       5 Oct 2023    /  1088

26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist                             9 Jan 2024    /  1102

27 - Artificial Intelligence                                          9 Feb 2024    /  1108

28 - Why Am I Here                                                 6 Sept 2024   /  1139

 

The Discussion

  

[13:23] Max Chatnoir: Wow huge nearby lightning strike.  I may disappear....

[13:23] herman Bergson: oh dear...

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): be careful Max

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ooow ok

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the marketing gods are angry, maybe

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well indeed I have seen this myself I know

[13:24] herman Bergson: So we now have reached the stage of consumer-oriented economic thought

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): different price for the same thing dependent on the store, for ex

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i take it as they have like different profit margins

[13:25] herman Bergson: That is what I said, but when the stores aree owned by the same person???

[13:26] Max Chatnoir: So what is the same product different prices?

[13:26] Max Chatnoir: Different demand?

[13:26] Päivi (nicolesteel): Added value, a smile and a cup of coffee is offered in one store, things a customer does not expect

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm then it gets trickier, but indeed I've heard about that also and this us usually unknown to the consumer that 2 stores have the same main owner and charge different for the same thing

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I've heard bout this indeed

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but never dove deeper into it

[13:27] herman Bergson: The same toothpaste, for instance, Max

[13:28] herman Bergson: or shampoo

[13:29] herman Bergson: It will be interesting to see what the next economists have to say about this subject.

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Like for ex we have 2 stores nearby here One is ICA and the other is called Willys. Willys in general have lower prices than ICA but they are not the same owner, BUT they could as well have the same owner, as said this is often invisible to the consumer unless they do their own research

[13:30] herman Bergson: Jevons was well aware of market manipulation and speculation...

[13:31] herman Bergson: According to Jevons, identical products should be exchanged for identical prices

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha

[13:32] herman Bergson: But as Nicole said, add a smile to the product and an extra dollar ㋡

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does that count for prices in another country? Same products I'm talking about, much cheaper in Germany than in the Netherlands

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Jevons' idea only exists in a perfect and fair world

[13:33] herman Bergson: yeah.. you could say...this is about different markets

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the world is not fair

[13:33] Max Chatnoir: So does the same store have different prices in different neighborhoods?

[13:33] herman Bergson: The German market isn't meant for Dutchies :-))

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Max

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Jumbo has different prices, in the same city

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes, the stores I am talking about aren't 100 m away from each other

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes, I still have to figure out what to think about this...although ...I have some clue...

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its same here. There is a smaller ICA store here earby ad a larger ICA a bit away; the smaller one has a bit higher prices, but that is because each store is its own individual company and the small one can't get gross discounts because they buy smaller amounts than the larger store can

[13:36] Päivi (nicolesteel): Not even McDonald's has the same prices in my country; differences from place to place

[13:36] herman Bergson: Keep in mind...what is happening today is not the economic thought from 1900, when pure capitalism began to take shape

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so smaller stores pay more for the same article when they buy them in = higher out price to compensate

[13:37] herman Bergson: We still have a lot to discover here, I think....

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): compensate

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha

[13:38] herman Bergson: That could be the case Bejiita, or the small store has a more greedy owner :-)

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): can be both

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that's the general picture I have of how it works

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gross discounts

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): rebates

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes, that is why so many small businesses went bankrupt due to the big malls

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i try to support the one nearby here as much i can when i only need fewer items + it's just like a 3 min walk

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if im only out of candy and milk for ex but have everything else

[13:41] herman Bergson: Well, time to move on to another economic thinker...

[13:42] herman Bergson: New thoughts, new answers....

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:42] herman Bergson: So, thank you all again for your participation

[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:43] Päivi (nicolesteel): thank you

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] Max Chatnoir: But why do they have different prices in different nearby stores?

[13:44] herman Bergson: THAT is marketing, Max

[13:44] herman Bergson: This subject has not yet shown up because in 1900 they had no idea what it was

[13:45] Max Chatnoir: So is everythin in the store more or less expensive or is it more random?

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they want you to visit every store if you want low prices

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's time consuming:)

[13:45] Max Chatnoir: and people who don't have time to do that just get stiffed?

[13:46] herman Bergson: I'll investigate this matter in detail Max and gonna compare prices in detail between the two

[13:46] Max Chatnoir: Thanks!

1261: On value...

Utility, the capacity to produce pleasure and prevent pain, arises from products being brought in suitable quantities and at the proper times into the possession of persons needing them.

  

And it is by exchange, which means trade in this context, more than any other means, that this is effected. Exchange or trade are cornerstones of economics.

  

So, according to Jevons, it is impossible to have a correct idea of the science of Economics without a perfect compre-

hension of the Theory of Exchange.

   

A starting point in a theory of exchange is value. To keep it short, the word Value merely expresses the circumstance of its exchanging in a certain ratio for some other substance.

  

Or as John Stuart Mill said: "Value is a relative term. The value of a thing means the quantity of some other thing, or of things in general, which it exchanges for", but Jevons gave this a completely different interpretation.

   

Suppose you exchange a ton of iron for an ounce of gold. Then we are inclined to say that the value of a ton of iron is an ounce of gold. 

  

We thus convert value in a concrete thing: value of iron = one ounce of gold.

   

According to Jevons, the more correct and safe expression is that the value of a ton of iron is equal to the value of one ounce of gold.

  

To make this clearer, replace the word "value" with Jevons' term "utility". To speak of the value of gold as such makes little sense.

   

What Jevons meant was that the ratio should replace the term value at which two utilities meet, two products with the capacity to produce pleasure and prevent pain.

  

Taking the gold, its utility is limited. However, a great quantity of goods may often be exchanged for it, while, on the other hand, water is very useful.

  

So you would expect it to have a high value, but scarcely anything can be had in exchange for it. This means that we can differentiate between a value in use and a value in exchange.

  

But Jevons went a step further. His goal was to show that "value in exchange" is entirely dependent on the Final Degree of Utility of the last unit consumed.

  

Everybody wants that first glass of water. Nobody is interested in that fifth glass of water, which has reached its final degree of utility in this situation. At that point, you aren't looking for a drink; you're looking for a drain.

  

So, we may conclude that in Jevons' view, products as such have no value. For instance, the value of a product is not determined by its cost of production.

   

Its value is determined by its exchange ratio, and this is where the markets come in, to which I referred in the previous lecture.

   

And that is the beginning of modern economic thought. The shift from old to new is that for Jevons, value looks forward to the consumer, not backward to the factory.

  

Thank you for your attention again....the floor is yours, but... I'll give it to you with a question:

   

If Jevons is right, that value looks forward to the consumer and not backward to the factory, what does that say about a company that spends ten years and a billion dollars 

 developing a product that no one wants? 

  

Is that product worth a billion dollars because of the effort, or is it worth zero? And if it's worth zero, does that mean the labor of the workers was 'valueless'?

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Glyn Davies:  The History of Money (2002)

 Jürgen Georg Backhaus: Handbook of the History

of Economic Thought (2012)

TABLE OF CONTENTS -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                                              9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                              10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                               10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                              29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

24 - Materialism                                                      7 Sept 2022   /  1011

25 - Historical Materialism                                       5 Oct 2023    /  1088

26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist                             9 Jan 2024    /  1102

27 - Artificial Intelligence                                          9 Feb 2024    /  1108

28 - Why Am I Here                                                 6 Sept 2024   /  1139

 

The Discussion

[13:16] Stranger Nightfire shouts: I was just thinking what is the value of a hammer if there are no nials that need to be driven

[13:16] herman Bergson: Go ahead ㋡

[13:16] herman Bergson: zero

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes true

[13:16] Max Chatnoir: Well, the workers did produce the product.

[13:17] herman Bergson: according to Jevons

[13:17] herman Bergson: They did, yes

[13:17] Max Chatnoir: I have another question.  If the price of gas doubles, does its utility really change?

[13:17] Stranger Nightfire shouts: on the other hand what is the real value of a pet rock or a labubu doll

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Stranger

[13:18] Max Chatnoir: Well, that's the "demand" side.

[13:18] Stranger Nightfire shouts: however you spell that

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I think the word ad phenomenon Hype did ot really exist at Jevons time

[13:19] herman Bergson: Sorry had to turn on my desk lamp :-)

[13:19] herman Bergson: @Max...what when the gas price double....

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we see this with AI. People protesting about taking all hardware and electricity and turig the entire planet to a datacenter but all the tech billionaires respond is "AI AI AI AI MORE AI AI AI!"

[13:20] herman Bergson: Gas has the capacity to produce pleasure....it only changes its ratio of exchange in relation to the consumer who offers dollars for it

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): The greed have gotten them insane, and they have created a demand that only makes CEOS happy, to be able to fire all workers and replace them with AI

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this hype I don't think existed in Jevons ' days

[13:22] herman Bergson: So you don't pay for the costs of gas production but you pay for the utility of gas

[13:23] Max Chatnoir: But is that utility really changing?

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with gas, it still take u an equal distance per litre

[13:24] herman Bergson: To an oil company gas is worthless..it is just gas....for the consumer it makes his car drive...and dollars are a pleasure for the oil company...so there is an exchange....

[13:25] herman Bergson: Take water....what is its utility?

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but is it really worthless then?

[13:25] herman Bergson: But when in the desert...then...what is its utility....

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no water - no life

[13:25] Max Chatnoir: I do still have a water bill.

[13:26] herman Bergson: same with gas...low production of refineries...less at the gas station....

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and indeed here if in thirsty I just open the faucet but in the desert it is indeed another story

[13:26] Stranger Nightfire shouts: water has one important quality, you can not live very long at all without it

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we can live without food longer than without water

[13:27] Stranger Nightfire shouts: why the arab oil states are in a dire situation today

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes you have Max, because there is a company that produces the water and that company finds more pleasure in dollars than water

[13:27] Stranger Nightfire: did not mean to shout that

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ツ

[13:28] Max Chatnoir: They don't really make it, but they do collect it and deliver it and make sure it is more or less drinkable.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Value is a relation of exchange..

[13:28] herman Bergson: more or less drinkable?

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also a thing with these AI datacenters, they dont recirculate the cooling water but just blast it into the air in the form of steam and so a single AI datacenter can require millions of litres of fresh water pr day just for cooling

[13:29] herman Bergson: Slow down Bejiita, please

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the tech giants don't care blinde by their greed for AI

[13:29] Max Chatnoir: Not toxic or infectious....

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its wasteful

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Does it taste good Max?

[13:30] Max Chatnoir: Depends on what part of town you are in.  Here, not so great.  In an apartment I had across town it was great!

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i heard there is chlorine in the water in the US

[13:30] herman Bergson: another question....

[13:30] herman Bergson: Jevons says the fifth glass of water is worth less to you than the first. If we apply this to money, is the 'last dollar' of a billionaire worth less to them than the 'first dollar' of a person in poverty?

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): chlorine is necessary for ensuring it's safe to drink; we use it here also

[13:31] herman Bergson: Does Jevons’ theory of utility provide a scientific argument for taxing the rich, or is that a step too far?

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but I don't taste it

[13:31] Max Chatnoir: Ah, taxes are a different issue.

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:32] herman Bergson: When you possess 50 million dollars... is the next million less value?

[13:32] herman Bergson: When you have only 1 dollar, is the next dollars than more valuable?

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting thought

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you get used to the million dollars

[13:33] Max Chatnoir: Maybe if it lets you get with two dollars something you couldn't get for one.

[13:33] Max Chatnoir: lets

[13:34] herman Bergson: Which is obvious, I guess Max....does it apply also to 50 and 51 million?

[13:34] Stranger Nightfire: those with hundreds of billions of dollars still seem to desperately crave every new one they can get

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:34] herman Bergson: Mihael Sandel writes about that phenomenon indeed Stranger...

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but by then its just greed, they have more than they can ever spend

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I say

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): greed vs need

[13:35] Stranger Nightfire: the billionaires in fact seem desperate to stop the idea of a 2 percent wealth tax

[13:35] herman Bergson: Apparently it is the kick to score that  drives them

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something like that

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or idk what it is

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that want u to hoard everything

[13:37] herman Bergson: Oh funny thought.... billionaires as money-hoarders

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes that's what they do

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): time to clean out their houses

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha

[13:39] Stranger Nightfire: There was a period in Bill Gates when he had the richest man in the world, And he was doing absolutely nothing with it just sitting on it

[13:39] Stranger Nightfire: I remember saying to somebody hell, if I had that much money I could run my own space program

[13:39] Stranger Nightfire: Of course we've now seen billionaires get around to that

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:40] herman Bergson: total waste of money, I'd say

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Sure, I'm for space exploration but not by greedy assholes

[13:40] herman Bergson: They'd better spend it on schools, hospitals, social care and things like that

[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: they should collect stamps instead

[13:41] herman Bergson: Fact is that they obtained all this money from "us" , the consumers

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that's the most important thing indeed, all the people

[13:41] Stranger Nightfire: My point was that at that time Gates was doing absolutely nothing with his money

[13:41] Stranger Nightfire: so I would have made more sense to me that he would spend it on a wasteful hobby Then I'm nothing at all

[13:41] herman Bergson: so if you don't know what to do with ot...give it back to the consumers

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:42] Max Chatnoir: Was th

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they never give it back

[13:42] Max Chatnoir: at because so much more was coming in than he had anticipated?

[13:43] Stranger Nightfire: Well, when Ted Turner was first told that he had $2 billion, he immediately said that's ridiculous and gave half of it to the UN

[13:43] Stranger Nightfire: He was a somewhat different billionaire than most

[13:43] Stranger Nightfire: and in those days a billion was a lot of money

[13:44] Stranger Nightfire: For that matter, for all her falls JK Rowling, when she was told she was a billionaire, was disturbed by it and gave some of it away

[13:45] herman Bergson: Back to the main issue of today....

[13:46] herman Bergson: Economic thought has moved from labor to consumer in Jevons' thoughts

[13:46] Max Chatnoir: Yes, but you can't ignore labor.

[13:48] herman Bergson: No you can't..but how would you feel if your own boss told you that your hard work over the last month was worth nothing because the "market changed.?

[13:48] Stranger Nightfire: Well to the greatest extent possible, the capitalists are trying to get rid of Labor

[13:49] herman Bergson: The degree of exchange of the product had gone to almost zero?

[13:49] herman Bergson: Indeed Stranger ..my impression too

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said, they want to replace everyone with AI - no labor

[13:50] Max Chatnoir: Well, you can't just reduce people's salary because the consumers didn't like your produce.

[13:50] Stranger Nightfire: For capitalists, in fact human beings i've always been the thing that was most expandable

[13:51] Max Chatnoir: product.

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats their dream at least but luckily it seems not to really work as they thought

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the backlash is coming

[13:51] herman Bergson: So, whatever...labor should be rewarded, Max?

[13:52] Max Chatnoir: They did the work, and they made the product.  Why aren't people buying it?

[13:52] herman Bergson: Because the product doesn't give much pleasure

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because they didn't ask us if we wanted it, it's as I say, just hype, hype and more hype

[13:52] Max Chatnoir: Maybe they don't find it useful?

[13:52] herman Bergson: yes, something like that

[13:53] Stranger Nightfire: The product one is making can become obsolete before it hits the market

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that also

[13:53] Stranger Nightfire: Reminds me of an interesting thing the business writer Tom Peters said he would advise corporate clients -- you need to be the person that puts company out of business

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I have some good examples of the opposite, it's a kind of niche market

[13:54] Stranger Nightfire: In other words you'd better innovate and create a better product before your competitor does

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the music machine Roland SP404 is quite old but it constantly gets updates and is thus as actual today

[13:54] herman Bergson: Not yet solved...the value of labor and the Marginal value, how the market acts...

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): machine

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as said thats a very special product

[13:55] Max Chatnoir: Risky when you're making something really new.

[13:55] Max Chatnoir: making

[13:55] Stranger Nightfire: Some interesting cases but the fact that the digital watch was invented by someone at a Swiss watch company but they would not build them

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes, u dont know the demand or if people are gonna like it

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ect

[13:55] Stranger Nightfire: and the digital camera was invented at Kodak but they resisted creating them

[13:55] Stranger Nightfire: Both were great gifts to the Japanese

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes because they had all their investment in film and thus wanted it to stay like that

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): big mistake

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): First they create a need and then advertise as much as they can with it

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even film photography is still a thing

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): { the pillow with the hole in it }

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaah

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): things like that

[13:57] herman Bergson: Well, Beertje, today we took the first stap to understand how we got there....

[13:57] Stranger Nightfire: I wonder what it costs to get film processed these days

[13:58] herman Bergson: JEvons ...and there are others... is one of these steps....the consumer first...

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I found some cool series on YouTube how film works and is made at Kodak

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they walk you through the entire process in the factory, very interesting

[13:59] Max Chatnoir: But that's why utility is important.

[13:59] herman Bergson: I have no Kodak shares, so I guess I thank you all again for your participation...

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCxoZlFqzwA

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQKy1KJpSVc

[13:59] Stranger Nightfire: I remember when I was a kid I used to like a TV show that was called Industry on Parade and was all about following products along an assembly line explaining how they were made

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a 4 part series in total I think

[13:59] herman Bergson: I wish you a pleasant and healthy weekend :-)

[13:59] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:59] Max Chatnoir: Even if it's utility that you create, like microwave ovens.

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is a show called How It's Made I watched all the time before on YouTube also

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you, Herman

[14:00] Max Chatnoir: Thanks you, Herman.  This has been fascinating.

[14:00] herman Bergson: Get ready for next Tuesday..there will be more :-))

[14:01] Max Chatnoir: Oh, boy!