962: Medicine.....

 So far we have seen a lot of developments in all kinds of sciences, as well as the emergence of the use of the empirical cycle as a method to discover patterns and principles.

   

In many ways, medicine has turned out to be an outlier in this project. Contrary to other disciplines, for example, 

  

there was hardly any convergence between principles and patterns in classical antiquity, and in the post-classical period, again in contrast to other disciplines, there was no reduction of principles. 

  

A possible explanation could be that medicine was mainly 'learned' and 'philosophical' and little 'empirical'. 

  

Theoretical principles, such as the four humours, blood, yellow bile, black bile, and phlegm, were so predominant, 

  

and the taboo on dissection of the human body was so great, that new empirical findings were rare. 

  

All this changes in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, almost simultaneously in Europe, China, India, the Ottoman Empire, Ethiopia and West Africa. 

   

The big name in medicine was for a long time Aelius Galenus (129 CE - 216 CE). Galenus's understanding of anatomy and medicine 

   

was principally influenced by the then-current theory of the four humors: black bile, yellow bile, blood, and phlegm.

  

Galenus's views dominated and influenced Western medical science for more than 1300 years. 

  

His anatomical reports were based mainly on the dissection of Barbary apes. However, when he discovered that their facial expressions were too much like those of humans, he switched to other animals, such as pigs. 

  

The reason for using animals to discover the human body was due to the fact that dissections and vivisections on humans were strictly prohibited at the time.

  

This prohibition dated back to 150 BC in Roman law. His anatomical reports remained uncontested until 1543, 

   

when printed descriptions and illustrations of human dissections were published in the seminal work "De humani corporis fabrica" by Andreas Vesalius, where Galenus's physiological theory was accommodated to these new observations.

   

The name of Vesalius was actually Andries van Wesel. He was from Flanders, which is a part of Belgium today. He was a student of Johann Winter van Andernach (1505 -1574).

  

With his philological research Andernach had revived the writings of Galenus and based his anatomy lectures on those texts.

  

His student Andreas Vesalius discovered more than 200 mistakes in Galenus's writings. His prof didn't get angry, but stimulated Vesalius to come with empirical evidence to proof his point.

   

This resulted in the book I already mentioned: "De humani corporis fabrica" (1543). It was illustrated by the artist Johannes von Kalkar.

  

Vesalius dissects the human body like the philologist dissects a text, an analysis from the whole into the last detail.

  

He gives an anatomical analysis of the human body in terms of parts and their interrelation without mentioning the principles regarding their working.

   

There is one thing that puzzles me. The Greek Alcmaeon (ca. 510 BC) is known as the first who dissected human bodies. 

  

He inferred that the brain was the center of intelligence and that the soul was the source of life. 

  

Why did human anatomy disappear from the stage? I found the following answer:

  

-QUOTE- The flickering light of human dissection was completely snuffed out with the burning of Alexandria in 389 AD. 

  

Following widespread introduction of Christianity in Europe during the Middle Ages, the development of rational thought and investigation was paralysed by the church authorities 

  

and physicians could only repeat the works of the eminent figures from the past such as Aristotle or Galenus without questioning their scientific validity. 

   

During this period, human dissection was considered to be blasphemous and so was prohibited.

  

For hundreds of years, the European world valued the sanctity of the church more than scientific quest and it was not until the early 14th century 

   

that human dissection was revived as a tool for teaching anatomy in Bologna, Italy after a hiatus of over 1700 years  -END QUOTE

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4582158/

   

Thank you for your attention again....

http://www.herman-bergson.nl

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Rens Bod: "Een Wereld vol Patronen".  2019

The Discussion

   

[13:15] herman Bergson: Da Vinci was one of the first to make anatomical drawings

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): The church stopped all discoveries for 100s of years, a real bugger

[13:16] herman Bergson: Looks like it

[13:16] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hii Oola:-)

[13:17] oola Neruda: hi... smiles... am so embarrassed to be late

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess maybe in fear of them discovering that there is no god magic and supernatural hocus pocus

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus taking the church power away

[13:17] herman Bergson: or maybe because they were afraid that the soul would not be found in the body :-)

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:18] herman Bergson: Amazing that Arcmaeon that old Greek, related the mind to the brain

[13:19] herman Bergson: No brain, no intelligence

[13:19] herman Bergson: By the way...

[13:20] herman Bergson: the publication of Vesalius' book wasn't uncontroversial

[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): by the church?

[13:20] herman Bergson: It was a refutation of Galenian beliefs

[13:21] herman Bergson: The church reluctantly began to accept human dissection

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why would a professor be mad if a student discovers mistakes?

[13:22] herman Bergson: There are everywhere EGOs, Beertje

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh yes

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): The boss always is right mantra

[13:22] herman Bergson: but some persons are more balanced

[13:22] herman Bergson: Right Bejiita....

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but he must have been lucky to have such a brilliant student

[13:23] herman Bergson: I guess you know the two rules of management....

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:23] herman Bergson: I think he must have been

[13:23] bergfrau Apfelbaum: like Herman with us:-) Beertje

[13:23] herman Bergson: Rule 1...The boss is always right

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): shhh

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 2 should the boss have wrong paragraph 1 is automatically applied

[13:24] herman Bergson: Rule 2: In all other cases rule 1 applies.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seen it on a coffe mug

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes mine Bejiita

[13:24] herman Bergson: educational mug :-)

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:25] herman Bergson: One thing is clear,,,

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): het onmogelijke doe ik direct voor U, wonderen duren iets langer, was on my desk

[13:25] herman Bergson: With Vesalius real empirical medicine not yet had started

[13:26] herman Bergson: He just deconstructed the human body into its parts....

[13:26] theo Velde is online.

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but did he understand the body?

[13:27] herman Bergson: and had them drawn

[13:27] herman Bergson: Not really, I think Beertje

[13:27] herman Bergson: Nowhere in the book do you find explaining theories

[13:28] herman Bergson: Soon Harvey with discovering the blood circulation in the body and its function

[13:29] herman Bergson: That's the start....

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): those people in the mid ages must have been suffering a lot

[13:31] herman Bergson: If you reckon where we can use Paracetamol for today...hardly any medicines in those days

[13:31] herman Bergson: Little hygiene too

[13:32] herman Bergson: farm animals in the streets of the cities, open sewers...

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): trash dumped through the window

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): onto the streets

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cant imagine the stench

[13:33] herman Bergson: We can survive a COVID crisis but in those days millions simply died in a plague

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): EEEEW

[13:33] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the smell........

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mush have smelled like a sewer/trash heap everywhere

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the entire city

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and they wonder why they got sick?

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pfff

[13:34] herman Bergson: maybe they had a stronger immune system

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they died sooner

[13:34] herman Bergson: that too

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lot's of children died

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): says i because i know this stuff but i guess the connection was not really made, dumping your poop and other shit into your drinking water supply should logically have rung a bell though

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): even back then

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but also no way to process sewage was invented yet

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so they had no choice either

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not anything like our modern water treatment plants

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): modern

[13:36] oola Neruda: outhouses

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they had beer to drink

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that was safe

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i say thats the better option there yes

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and brewing beer sterilizes the water through the wort boiling

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still would not wanna drink beer made with cesspit water

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes the rich fled the city and had their big houses in the countryside

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but im a bit comfortable i guess

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they had toilets, but the poop run outside the walls down in the gardens:)

[13:38] herman Bergson: yes

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): automatic fertilization systems

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well its better for the plants

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like how we still use cow dung on the farms

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but not along the walls

[13:38] oola Neruda: chamber pots emptied in specific places ...

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and what is farmland without a little smell of cowshit

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:39] herman Bergson: ok....

[13:39] herman Bergson: guess we are done for today :-)

[13:39] herman Bergson: Enjoying the countryside and its smells :-))

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): enough crap talk, now starting the plupptalk!

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ツ

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loool

[13:40] herman Bergson: Right Bejiita ^_^

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but was great craptalk

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson: So...thank you all again for your attention....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok where to now?

961: Analogy thinking.......

 The idea that a mechanics, based on three laws of motion, combined with reductions and predictions, could explain all motion phenomena, 

  

regular and irregular, celestial and terrestrial, became the model for the other sciences from the eighteenth century. 

  

Newton's gravitational mechanism was taken as a prototype for finding laws in other disciplines. After all, attracting forces appeared not only to occur in mechanics but also in other fields, such as electricity. 

  

And these fields, according to the Newtonians, could become as successful as mechanics if worked out analogously to the Newtonian theory of mechanics. 

  

This analogical thinking, like the empirical cycle, is a pattern of reductions: where a certain reduction has worked in one area, it could also work in another area. 

  

This thinking using analogy wasn't new, but in those years from 1700 on it became more popular,

But it turned out to be less valid than the other deduction pattern, the empirical cycle. 

   

Let's start with a successful case; the theory of electricity. Today, the study of electricity falls under physics, but in the eighteenth century, the so-called electricians formed a separate group of scientists. 

  

They discovered all kinds of new phenomena. In 1734, Charles du Fay showed that there are two types of electricity: 

  

vitreous electricity that is created by the friction of, for example, glass, and resinous electricity, which is created by the friction of resin. 

  

These two types of electricity are today called positive and negative charges. It turned out that there is an attraction between two charged objects if one is positively charged and the other negatively charged. 

  

If the charges are both positive or both negative, then there is a repulsive force. Despite this difference from gravity, 

  

the electric force between charges was modeled analog to the Newtonian law of gravity by Charles-Augustin de Coulomb in 1784.

   

I guess we all know the phenomenon of seeing your hair getting attracted by some object, that you have rubbed on woolen cloth, for instance. Nowadays for us, it is child's play.

  

Newtonian physics became the model for other sciences. This became the moment in history, where to focus moved from the world of texts, the philology to the world of physics.

  

The mechanization of our worldview became a fact. This was already noticeable in medicine, where people had already come to regard the body as a machine.

   

We see this, for example, in the work of the Dutch physician Herman Boerhaave (1668 -1738), 

  

who tried to give a mechanistic explanation of diseases on the basis of hydrostatic equilibrium and fluid pressure, but without much success.

  

Technically it sounds like this: Hydrostatic pressure is a measurement of the force per unit area on an object in the fluid or on the surface of a closed container. 

   

This pressure can be caused by gravity, acceleration, or by forces outside a closed container.

  

In the terminology, you hear words Newton used in his physical theories, so the temptation is great to assume that something analogous might be happening in the body.

   

The music scholar and composer Jean-Philippe Rameau (1683 - 1764)was also influenced by Newton. 

  

His case involved Newton's discovery of the refraction of light by a prism, which showed that white light is in fact made up of rainbow colors.

   

He showed that a single tone in fact is a set of tones, which we call overtones. But this analogy didn't lead to deducible predictions. It just stayed an analogy.

    

It is one of the big mysteries of the history of knowledge, that mechanics appears to be largely absent in other cultures of that time, like India, China, or Islamic culture.

  

Although the empirical cycles originated from philology, which we find in all cultures, it mysteriously only evolved in Europe and brought us natural sciences and more.

    

Thank you for your attention.....the floor is yours...

   

http://www.herman-bergson.nl

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Rens Bod: "Een Wereld vol Patronen".  2019

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: That makes me think of developing a vaccine...that is also by analogy

[13:22] herman Bergson: virus x looks like virus y....we have a vaccine for x....maybe it can be adapted for y

[13:23] herman Bergson: It not always works....but you can give it a try

[13:24] herman Bergson: What we see in this period of human thinking is, that physics became the leading science in that century

[13:25] herman Bergson: The humanists looked backward to discover great truths..

[13:26] herman Bergson: and now we enter an era that is focused on discovering all the time NEW things

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well the middle eastern countries are so obsessed with religios stuff, Allah, holy wars against everyone else and how to create the most miserable living conditions for their people, mostly for their women that there is no wonder nothing happens in these countries, sad reality. Its back to storage there

[13:26] herman Bergson: One step further and we talk of "discovering" new products

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): while Europe focuses on reality and fact = science

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): = progress

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes I guess you are right Bejiita...

[13:28] herman Bergson: But here you introduce the concept of PROGRESS

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): progress is good

[13:28] herman Bergson: like growth...?!

[13:28] Laila Schuman: depends upon who "owns it"

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): infinite economic growth or other growth?

[13:28] Laila Schuman: WHO

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:29] herman Bergson: It crossed my mind that this change in the European mindset also was the beginning of capitalism in some way

[13:29] herman Bergson: There you go Laila.....indeed

[13:30] herman Bergson: In the beginning, science might have been just satisfying curiosity....

[13:30] Laila Schuman: I remember attending a lecture given by Kruchev's son... speaking on his experience in the race for rockets.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: step two might have been science for developing products

[13:30] Laila Schuman: he was in the places where it happened... even the building of them

[13:30] Laila Schuman: WHOM and WHY

[13:31] herman Bergson: those rockets were for politics

[13:31] Laila Schuman: lol... his wife was sitting behind me and she corrected him on a name he mentioned... he BLASTED HER IN FRONT OF EVERYONE

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the moon race?

[13:31] Laila Schuman: everyone

[13:33] Laila Schuman: I believe Von Brown was involved a that time

[13:33] Laila Schuman: spellling?

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa Werner con Braun yes

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the rocket man

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): built the V2

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and helped in the moon race

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a true classic

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): legend

[13:34]  ღ Carma ღ  (carma.caerndow) is offline.

[13:34] herman Bergson: The issue today is actually that we witness the beginning of modern science here and that we now know what it has brought  us

[13:35] Laila Schuman: or not brought us

[13:35] herman Bergson: At least it brought us our consumerism :-)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmm

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and an endlessly growing heap of trash

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): while we empty the earth's resources

[13:36] herman Bergson: Newton never could have foreseen that

[13:37] Laila Schuman: and the dream of tourist travel to space... which I find repulsive considering the needs of many people... and the reluctance to face climate control... such greed

[13:37] herman Bergson: He just wanted the knowledge to understand and explain phenomena

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm it's just a way to get money from the rich, not the star trek vision

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but in star trek there is no economic interests, just the will to get it done (Except for the Ferengi that is)

[13:38] herman Bergson: Space tourism shows how much the rich are alienated from reality and live in their own buble lacking the empathy for the rest of the world

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): F**CK U ALL POOR LOWLIFE HAVE SOOOO MUCH MONEY LOOOK WHAT I CAN DOOO! IM SOO GOOD

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): GUUUUUUUGH!

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i hate that attitude!

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what we in Sweden call "Skrytmåns"

[13:40] herman Bergson: I read something about the psychology of the rich...was a book review if I am not mistaken

[13:41] herman Bergson: Anyway...we now know when and where it all began :-)

[13:41] Laila Schuman: here, they do not pay taxes on income from their stock.... so that is a main place to put their money

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): where is here Laila?

[13:41] herman Bergson: US

[13:41] Laila Schuman: the US

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tax paradises

[13:42] Laila Schuman: how they are getting away with not paying their fair share of taxes

[13:43] Laila Schuman: why Biden wants to mess with their taxes

[13:43] herman Bergson: Well....we'll see what that might bring.....

[13:43] herman Bergson: but let's keep that for another day :-)

[13:44] Laila Schuman: between off shore tax havens and stock dividends...who needs banks

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some contribution they can do at least but i guess their mindset is I WANT IT ALL! ITS MINE AND ON;Y MINE AND I WANT MOOOOOOOORE!

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the more u have the more u want

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): never satisfied

[13:44] herman Bergson: That seems to be the case indeed with them Bejiita

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well...guess we may leave it to that for today :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: We almost saved the world again....

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok NOW we can get Plupped

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for participating :-)

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): YOU will get plupped

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe no YOU will get plupped!

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): * PLUPP *

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): muahaha

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we'll see

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman for this class

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): great again anyway

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting

960: The Age of Science...

Copernicus 1473 - 1543
Kepler 1571 - 1630
Bacon 1561 - 1642
Galilei 1564 - 1642
Descartes 1596 - 1650
Huygens 1629 - 1695
Newton 1643 - 1727

 When you look at the names, these were the super brains in Europe in their time and these brains occupied themselves with mathematics, astronomy, chronology and mechanics and some theology.

   

Although the Arabs studied mathematics too at a high level, that was mainly before 1400. What this group of people was doing, didn't happen anywhere else in the world in the same way.

   

The search for patterns and principles drives the brain. In the early beginning of mankind it was the best way to survive,

    

the best way to organize a society that grew more and more complex after the emergence of agriculture,

  

the best way to explain, based on the patterns "above", the what and why regarding the events "below'.

   

But what these men were doing.... why did they spend so much brainpower on these subjects? How do we have to understand that?

     

First of all mathematics. Mathematics is a formal science whose usual definition is the study of patterns and structures in numbers, space and shape. Ok, that matches.

     

Mathematics has a history that goes back to prehistoric times. Tapping sticks from prehistoric times indicate that people were already counting back then.

  

From 3000 BC the Mesopotamian states of Sumer, Akkad and Assyria, followed closely by Ancient Egypt and the Levantine state of Ebla began using 

arithmetic, algebra and geometry for purposes of taxation, commerce, trade and also in the patterns in nature, the field of astronomy and to record time and formulate calendars.

  

Clear, mathematics is THE language of the universe and it was perfectly applicable in astronomy and astrology.

  

However, the underlying motive must have been religious. In a man as Kepler we certainly see this confirmed.

   

The stronger the relationship becomes between mathematical calculations and empirical observations and testing, the greater becomes the tension with the religious motive.

   

That is what we see in Galilei. Descartes almost breaks the link between pure empiricism and religious motivation by introducing causality as the basis of all patterns.

   

Based on his "clear and distinct" ideas he develops mechanics which explain everything based on principles of push and pull forces.

  

That this was the step into a scientific world, leaving a theological world, was clear. If everything was causal, then god had lost his job 

   

and Descartes had to flee to the Netherlands to escape the unpleasant consequences of his views like losing his head.

   

There was his natural philosophy of causality the talk of the town and Christiaan Huygens developed the right mathematics to make good use of such ideas.

   

He put it to the test and designed the most accurate pendulum clock ever. Of course, he did a lot more super brainy things,

  

but what he clearly demonstrated was the integration of mathematical deductions and the empirical cycle.

  

And finally, there is Isaac Newton, the Einstein of mathematics undeniably. In the first place, he proved, that Descartes's pull and push forces theory was wrong.

  

He discovered the concept of gravity.. How he did it, I really don't know, but he must have deduced it from mathematical principles in combination with observations.

  

It has something to do with the thesis that two bodies attract each other with a certain force and that there is a gravitation constant G, for this force, which has a very small value,

  

but if the bodies are as huge as the sun or a planet, then the gravitation effect comes into action.

  

If you combine this with his mechanics and three laws of motion, you can understand Newton's prediction,

  

that the trajectory of a cannon bullet may be a parabola, but when the push force of a shot is strong enough the cannon bullet would end up in an orbit around the earth.

  

This fascination with mathematics and its applicability to the natural world thus made Newton predict the possibility of bringing satellites into space.

   

With Newton, Homo sapiens entered the Age of Science, I'd say.....

   

Thank you for your attention.....

 

http://www.herman-bergson.nl

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Rens Bod: "Een Wereld vol Patronen".  2019

The Discussion

 

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i guess its not as simple as the classic picture of Newton under an apple tree and then an apple hit him in the head BONK! and OH! Gravity!

[13:17] herman Bergson: I find it just amazing......how that brain found out such a concept

[13:17] herman Bergson: Beyond my comprehension

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): impressive dude for sure

[13:18] herman Bergson: All those men were impressive...

[13:18] herman Bergson: and there also were two women at the same level

[13:18] herman Bergson: Madame Dacier I mentioned...a philologist...

[13:19] herman Bergson: the other was the friend of Voltaire...a Marquise...Madam E....?

[13:19] herman Bergson: She was a mathematician...

[13:21] herman Bergson: Emilie de Chalet

[13:21] herman Bergson: Chatelet...sorry

[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ツ

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:22] herman Bergson: She did all kinds of experiments concerning kinetic energy...

[13:22] herman Bergson: She dropped lead ball in soft clay

[13:23] herman Bergson: and then she used the measure of displacement of the clay by the ball to calculate the energy it gained in its motion....

[13:23] herman Bergson: Just the thought of it to be able to think of that...

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats something

[13:24] herman Bergson: Those people were geniuses

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm'

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): she must have learned to calculate somewhere

[13:24] herman Bergson: I still try to figure out what the feeling behind all their actions were....

[13:25] herman Bergson: oh yes...

[13:25] herman Bergson: I don't know here life story...

[13:26] herman Bergson: But what is so amazing is that in those years just a handful of brilliant minds shaped science....

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did they communicate with each other?

[13:27] herman Bergson: Oh yes....a lot.....

[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki

[13:27] herman Bergson: They exchanged many letters

[13:27] herman Bergson: how they did that without a postal service as we know it....I don't know :-)

[13:28] oola Neruda: is this in the same period as when Erasmus was active

[13:28] herman Bergson: But there was a lively exchange of information

[13:28] herman Bergson: no....

[13:28] oola Neruda: thinking of the church's view

[13:28] herman Bergson: He was born in 1466

[13:30] herman Bergson: I find it an exciting period in the history of thought

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sure must have been

[13:30] herman Bergson: that the homo sapiens was driven to do all such things....

[13:31] herman Bergson: Never being satified with an answer....

[13:31] herman Bergson: Every answer implies new questions

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): will there ever bee an answer/

[13:32] oola Neruda: or a verification...by doing the experiment over again

[13:32] herman Bergson: not a final answer, no, I don't think so

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i guess this is what philosophy is about after all

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): those new questions

[13:32] herman Bergson: It is Bejiita :-)

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:33] herman Bergson: Maybe we then should move on to the next lecture to find other answers :-)

[13:34] herman Bergson: In less you still have a question...?

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no not at the moment

[13:34] herman Bergson: If not...then...

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): moment

[13:34] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Let's

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): plupp!

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): great again

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this gets better and better

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as more patterns emerge

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like with my game before

[13:35] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that AH now i know how to proceed

959: An inspiring observation....

 When you in passing by happen to overhear  a conversation between two elderly people, nine out of ten the subject of their conversation will be

   

that they have been to the doctor, that some relative is in the hospital, that someone had to have an operation, that there are problems with.....

  

When you open the newspaper, what first strikes your eye is the plethora of problems and disasters, that are occurrinng in our world with climate change winning the prize today.

   

what I have become aware of for long now, is that Homo sapiens has an probably inborn inclination to focus on the negative side of his existence here on this planet.

   

On the other hand we also have a probably inborn nature to strive for the good, to improve our lives and that of others, even when it isn't family.

   

Our current project is about the phenomenon that our mind was able to discover patterns in our environment and that we were able to discover principles on which these patterns were based.

   

And due to this ability we were able to improve our knowledge of our reality, even so much that were were able to develop a vaccin against a totally invisible covid enemy in no time today.

  

However,, in our class a number of times we discussed the questionable situation in the United States, the horrible right wing movement, the questionable behavior of a Mr. Trump and  so on.

   

In other words..... our world is going down the drain, isn't it? We need a lantern to find the little moments of the good, it seems.

    

But is that really our reality? True, when you follow the media, the news programs and the newspapers, apparently we live in a world of natural disaster, crime, economic and political disasters.

  

Then. let me show you proof, that it is in fact a kind of misconception. 

   

Our culture is based on the concept of individualism, on the belief that every individual person has rights, 

   

the right to live, the right of security, the right of having sufficient food, a roof over our head and healthcare and so on.

   

In every society where a small group has seized all wealth and power and claims these rights only for themselves 

  

and leave the rest of society for what it is or even oppress any protest, we see a corrupt elite and an autocrat at the helm.

   

But how is the world, that is, mankind really doing?

In Stockholm, Sweden, there is the IDEA. the International Institute for Democracy and electoral assistance.

  

QUOTE - We develop comparative knowledge, assist in democratic reform, and influence policies and politics, 

   

focusing in our main impact areas: electoral processes, constitution-building, democracy assessments, 

   

and political participation and representation. We also address issues of gender equality and inclusion, and conflict and security. - END QUOTE

  

That is what the institute does and here comes the catch. Each year the institute publishes a report on the status of democracy in the world 

   

and on its website I found a map, which inspired me to this lecture and to tell you about it. Just look at the map behind me......

  

I only can come to one conclusion, from a social and political point of view the world has become a better place for a lot more people in the past 50 years.

   

But let me warn you. When you read the report, you'll read this:

   

QUOTE - The number of countries undergoing ‘democratic backsliding’ (a more severe and deliberate kind of democratic erosion) has never been 

  

as high as in the last decade, and includes regional geopolitical and economic powers such as Brazil, India and the United States. - END QUOTE

  

So, there is still enough to worry about..... 

   

Thank you for your attention...

    

IDEA

https://www.idea.int/about-us/annual-reports 

IDEA Map

https://www.idea.int/gsod-indices/democracy-indices 

IDEA download report

https://www.idea.int/gsod/

[13:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i didn't know that about Germany

[13:15] Ian Newt: Very interesting herman... I have a question about the 'Freedom of Thought' map.  What is meant by 'Freedom of Thought'... how can anyone control anyone else's thoughts? Doesn't every human have freedom of thought?

[13:15] herman Bergson: I just saw the map myself

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing green on the map in 2014 and sweden ranked then with Systematic discrimination

[13:16] herman Bergson: Of course it means the freedom of expressing your thoughts

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the map below looks better, still way to many dark areas

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but yes stuff goes the wrong direction in some places, Hungary  and Poland are 2 scary examples

[13:17] herman Bergson: Yet the democracy map looks better for 2020

[13:17] Medussa Reddevil: I am surprise that these maps show Spain as a little orange respect the violations of freedom of expression, and I say this because in 2017 we got to get out on the streets to defend with our bodies our right to vote, Can you imagine that in 2017 in Europe?

[13:18] Medussa Reddevil: In needs to be dark red.

[13:19] herman Bergson: Today you mean Medussa?

[13:19] Ian Newt: Probably on both maps.

[13:19] Medussa Reddevil: Yes, today Spain should be a darker red

[13:20] herman Bergson: Isn't is a democracy anymore and discriminating people?

[13:20] Medussa Reddevil: ufff... I would not call this democracy

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:20] Medussa Reddevil: When you go to prison for writing a song about the King

[13:21] Ian Newt: Democracy in name only. Sort of a facade.

[13:21] herman Bergson: Ohh....

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have no check on whats happening in spain at moment but that sounds indeed not good

[13:21] Medussa Reddevil: Not good at all

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and very un-european

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said, things go in wring direction at some places

[13:21] herman Bergson: yes, neither have I detailed knowledge of the situation in Spain

[13:21] Medussa Reddevil: Our rightful president of Catalonia is in exile since 2017 for allowing people to vote

[13:22] herman Bergson: Oh dear...Catalonia

[13:22] Medussa Reddevil: He is in the Eurochamber fighting for rights

[13:22] herman Bergson: But the voting in Catalonia was unconstitutional, wasn't it?

[13:23] Medussa Reddevil: anyway, I don´t want to focus this discussion in our case but yes, many countries as getting back to old costumes

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed

[13:23] oola Neruda: I'm glad you are speaking of these things, Medussa

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): worrying development in many places

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): need to turn

[13:23] oola Neruda: Some things do not get covered...in the news...

[13:24] Medussa Reddevil: Is incostitucional to ask the people what is their opinion?

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the Catalonia thing i heard about before

[13:24] Ian Newt: The supreme court of Spain declared it unconstitutional, but that court is political

[13:24] Medussa Reddevil: Is not specified in Human Rights List the right to vote?

[13:24] herman Bergson: I thought the maps showed at least some improvements....?

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some laces have became better but others sadly worse

[13:25] herman Bergson: An increase in the number of (almost) democratic countries

[13:25] Ian Newt: They appear, overall, to indicate improvements, yes.

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:26] herman Bergson: Which may be regarded as a positive achievement of mankind....

[13:26] theo Velde is online.

[13:26] herman Bergson: but keep in mind....these maps show an overall score...

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true

[13:27] herman Bergson: so a matter like Catalonia weighs less in the total score of Spain

[13:27] Ian Newt: I don't believe that humankind is much different today that it was thousands of years ago. Superficially we're different due to technology and its affect upon daily life, but we're not fundamentally different.

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i agree Ian

[13:28] herman Bergson: You could question the fact that the US with its voter restriction laws, gerrymandering and discrimination is dark green....

[13:28] oola Neruda: Unfortunately, I have to agree

[13:29] herman Bergson: I would like to add a nuance to Ian's remark.....

[13:29] FrannyDJ Dean is offline.

[13:29] herman Bergson: In what sense are we the same....?

[13:29] oola Neruda: and the US is becoming something unrecognizable.. or... unfortunately, much to recognizable

[13:29] herman Bergson: I think that in our irrationality and emotion driven behaviors we are the same as a thousand years ago

[13:30] herman Bergson: There I agree with Ian

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and greed and power hungryness. (Erdogan Kim jong Putin)

[13:30] oola Neruda: technology makes the spread of ... "thoughts" much easier

[13:30] herman Bergson: but we are not the same in our social organization whithin which this irrational creature homo sapiens lives

[13:31] herman Bergson: bad thoughts and good thoughts indeed oola

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): only a few are like that but when those few can hold an entire countries population hostage

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we can say and write what we want, but do we need to say everything what we want?

[13:31] herman Bergson: That makes me wonder too all the time Bejiita

[13:31] oola Neruda: i have a journalism background... and have been watching proplganda taking over... slowly and more subtle at first...but now it is blaring

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): why no-one shoot the bastards. its millions against a few, well but those few have equally corrupted evil armies in their side that will do short work of the opposers, thats why nothing happens

[13:33] herman Bergson: violence isn't the solution Bejiita

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): look at the islamic spring, it ended with disaster and the Syrian war

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): evil wins

[13:33] Ian Newt: How is our social organization different today, herman?

[13:33] oola Neruda: even the laws that should contain propaganda... are being ignored.... one should be able to sue the reporters who lie... but I do not see that happening... on way FoX gets around it is by having a license that calls it entertainment... rather than news

[13:33] herman Bergson: To answer Ian, ....

[13:33] herman Bergson: look at the democracy map

[13:34] herman Bergson: the difference is that the individual citizen is protected in his rights

[13:34] herman Bergson: in a democracy

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how it should work indeed

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): when I watch FOX it surprises me everytime

[13:35] oola Neruda: they are lies... propaganda

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes...and especially Tucker Carlson

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ye

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): terrible

[13:36] herman Bergson: BUT...that is one of the values of democracy...free speech...

[13:36] herman Bergson: even terrible speech within the restrictions of the law

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but many people believe what he says

[13:36] oola Neruda: news orgainizations have to follow laws... to be honest

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): here in Sweden we have a say "using the democrazy to get rid of it"

[13:36] oola Neruda: Fox does not

[13:36] Ian Newt: What's interesting to me is that the stuff that comes out of Fox News, and the people who believe it... that's been going on for a long time, but during the 4 years of Trump it's like Pandora's box was opened.

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Ian

[13:37] Medussa Reddevil: I think we did not advance too much since old times, the known panem et circenses applies still now. If there is a big problem put some juicy news about famous or knows people and creates a distraction. The news are helping a lot to it.

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i thought it was Trumps news sender

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes.... and WHY do people WEANT to believe it?

[13:37] Ian Newt: I read somewhere that Trump is documented to have told more than 27,000 lies while in office. How can someone get away with that? How can the people who voted for him tolerate that?

[13:38] herman Bergson: no...Rupert Murdoch is the owner Beertje

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmm indeed, and now he is on blabbering again how he lost and blah blah WAAAAH WAAAH

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least now i dont hear about it all the time

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i know Herman, but it felt that Trump was the owner

[13:39] herman Bergson: I am quite puzzled about that behavior Ian

[13:39] oola Neruda whispers: at first they embraced trump as he ran for office because people tuned in to hear what he had to say... as a candidate... that affected ratings... which brought in more money through advertising... in the end, it was about MONEY

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in any case what is going on now in US is threatening the democrazy for sure

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its not how it should work

[13:39] herman Bergson: or take chosen representatives in Congress who still refuse to acknowledge that Trump lost the elections

[13:39] Medussa Reddevil: Did anybody seen the movie "  The Comey Rule  "  Trump seemed to "own" everything.

[13:40] Ian Newt: it's always about MONEY

[13:40] Ian Newt: everything is about MONEY

[13:40] herman Bergson: Most of the time indeed

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly yes

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh

[13:40] oola Neruda: money...is at the bottom of a lot of it

[13:40] herman Bergson: The magic mantra is: if the economy is growing everything is well

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Trump have definitely bribed his way through, if i did like him i would be in jail on lifetime sentence by now

[13:41] oola Neruda: lobbyists... and other "interests"

[13:41] Medussa Reddevil: So probably if Fox had somebody with some principles... poofed

[13:41] Medussa Reddevil: I agree Herman.

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or no i would probably be in a mattress cell for life

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its amazing he have gotten away with everything

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed money is everything

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it seems

[13:42] herman Bergson: If the USA stays a democracy will be shown in the 2022 elections

[13:42] oola Neruda: nods... scary

[13:42] Medussa Reddevil: Indeed

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone is offline.

[13:42] theo Velde is offline.

[13:43] Ian Newt: There's a fundamental flaw in human society that will eventually overshadow everything else... too much depends on continual and never-ending 'growth'. I read the other day that a decrease in the birth rate means that there won't be enough people for economies to continue to grow at high enough rates to sustain standards of living.

[13:43] herman Bergson: with all voter suppression laws in place , totally jerrymandered districts....

[13:43] Ian Newt: But there are already TOO MANY humans on the planet.

[13:43] oola Neruda: that is terrifying

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm i really hope for the best, but thuse Mr T supporters hmmm. at least that Shanon cult leader or what it was called is in jail now

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for storming the congress

[13:44] Medussa Reddevil: I agree Ian, the eternal growth

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:44] herman Bergson: I don't think there are too many people on this planet....but the problem is a fair distribution of resources...

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:44] oola Neruda: on the other hand, an increase in population means just that many more people either contributing to climate change.... or suffering under it.... and food will be a major problem

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to few have too much

[13:45] Ian Newt: In the 2022 elections it's likely that congress will swing away from the Democratic party and toward the Republican party. That's normal in the U.S. -- congress typically swings away from the party of the current president.

[13:45] herman Bergson: and it is already a proven fact that growth is not a conditio sine  qua non for survival...

[13:45] oola Neruda: there will be food shortages

[13:45] Ian Newt: It's part of the balances built into the American system.

[13:45] herman Bergson: self sustaining economic systems without growth are  also doable

[13:46] oola Neruda: water is becoming more scarce... the aquafirs are nearly drained.. partially because of irrigation methods currently using them up

[13:46] herman Bergson: indeed oola....a good example....

[13:47] herman Bergson: the water shortage in California is caused by those platages, what are they.....for peanuts....I forgot

[13:47] Medussa Reddevil: I think we have passed the point where we could have done things correctly.

[13:47] oola Neruda: California asked Chicago to send Lake Michigan water to California... I'm not sure how they planned to make that happen...

[13:47] oola Neruda: Chicago said no

[13:48] Ian Newt: I agree Medussa.

[13:48] herman Bergson: all water is spend on agricultural irrigation in Calefornia

[13:48] herman Bergson: I am not that pessimistic Medussa :-)

[13:48] Medussa Reddevil: I am not pessimistic, I am realistic :D

[13:49] herman Bergson smiles

[13:49] oola Neruda: they are getting desperate...the water table has gone down so far... and poor people who have normal wells have very little access to water... the wells are going dry

[13:49] Ian Newt: I don't think it's pessimism. More like being realistic.

[13:49] herman Bergson: Ah yes..that is what it is called , realistic :-)

[13:49] Medussa Reddevil: hehehe

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:49] oola Neruda: the big farmers dig their wells deeper than the rest of the people

[13:49] herman Bergson: indeed oola

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that creates big problems indeed

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not good

[13:50] Ian Newt: People have a tendency not to act unless it's really really urgent. Unless they are pursuing pleasure, and then they act earlier.

[13:50] herman Bergson: because that is good for the economy.......:-(

[13:50] oola Neruda: they can afford to...

[13:51] Ian Newt: There are so many examples of this. The dangerous intersection that everyone recognizes as dangerous doesn't get a traffic light until someone is killed in an accident there.

[13:51] oola Neruda: they can afford to dig a deeper well

[13:51] oola Neruda: and not even then

[13:51] herman Bergson: It all  begins to sound a little realistic here.....I thought I'd better bring some positive, somewhat optimistic view :-)

[13:51] Ian Newt: People live on flood plains.. until there is a big flood.

[13:51] Medussa Reddevil: People will have to migrate. Wait when the water rises... this last week rained scorpions in Egypt!

[13:52] oola Neruda: and people die as they try to migrate...

[13:52] herman Bergson: It also has rained frogs there, if I am not mistaken

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ITS THE END OF THE WOOORLD

[13:52] Medussa Reddevil: lol

[13:52] herman Bergson: Bejiita ! :-)

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): BONG BONG BONG!

[13:52] Medussa Reddevil: lol

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well hopefully not

[13:52] Medussa Reddevil: it´s life :)

[13:53] herman Bergson: Isay....how limited we may be in our capabilities, we do a good job

[13:53] Ian Newt: The end of the world "as we know it". Earth will survive, despite humanity.

[13:53] herman Bergson: we are just a passing plague for nature Ian ^_^

[13:53] Medussa Reddevil: I think so ian

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not if we nuke it and all life, plants ect on it

[13:54] Ian Newt: Plague is a good word for us. :-)

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that i hope not will come to reality

[13:54] Medussa Reddevil: Yes

[13:54] herman Bergson: I still believe that we'll manage as mankind

[13:55] Medussa Reddevil: The yes was for Ian´s comment lol

[13:55] herman Bergson: Yes ^_^

[13:55] oola Neruda: I sigh to realize that people who believe the things Q Anon says.... are out there...

[13:55] oola Neruda: and that there are so many of them

[13:55] herman Bergson: It is a minority oola

[13:56] oola Neruda: enough to tip a scale

[13:56] oola Neruda: combined with certain other .... groups

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa Q Anon was the name i tried to remember

[13:56] Ian Newt: I'm not sure how 'minor' that minority is, herman

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed

[13:56] herman Bergson: the more people say that the more this minority is strengthened in its convictions...

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and they are all on mr Ts side

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sigh

[13:57] herman Bergson: Stop being a megaphone for crackpots :-)

[13:57] Medussa Reddevil: ahhHHAHA

[13:57] herman Bergson: It is a structural flaw in the news media

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol but aren't they

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): most of the time minorities yell very loud

[13:58] Ian Newt: Here's a news media outlet with a different perspective: https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but well i have seen the congress being stormed by some insane mob and it looks like well

[13:58] herman Bergson: We have a crackpot in parlement....representing a small party

[13:58] oola Neruda: combine them with the people who are anti-this... anti-that or pro-whatever

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that its everything

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ohyes

[13:58] herman Bergson: His main goal is to create upheaval

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that annoying little man

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed that thing was insane, but hopefully its MUCH calmer now over there

[13:58] Medussa Reddevil: They said that the far right was just a small group... Europe is starting to have more and more representatives. That´s scary.

[13:59] Ian Newt: The thing that makes me nervous about 'crackpots' who get elected is that often they are perfectly sane and quite intelligent... it's the people who vote for them who are the crackpots.

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:59] herman Bergson: so  he loves to compare for instance vaccination with the Jewish yellow star ofr the holocaust

[13:59] Medussa Reddevil: ufff

[13:59] herman Bergson: the media here most of the time ignore him now

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oooof

[13:59] Ian Newt: That's what happened with Trump. He's much smarter than he seems.

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he might be but in the wrong things

[14:00] herman Bergson: Take Lauren Boebard or Taylor Green.....complete incompetent idiots but chosen

[14:01] Medussa Reddevil: Who is the small man you guys talking about? I am lost

[14:01] herman Bergson: But at the moment the US is really a special case in the hstory of democracy

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): his name not to be mentioned

[14:01] herman Bergson: Voldemort.....:-)

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)

[14:01] Medussa Reddevil: lol

[14:01] Medussa Reddevil: ok

[14:02] herman Bergson: I am not afraid ^_^

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha yes THAT is the closest comparison u can get to him

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[14:02] Marja Haven-Zeimer (ladyy.haven) is offline.

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Mr V

[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): welll i hope things turn out good in  the end in some way

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all u can do

[14:03] Medussa Reddevil: we all hope :D

[14:03] herman Bergson: I agree with you Bejiita...and I still have faith

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: think now we can all use this dancer :-) i send you

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me too, and soon its all christmas parties!

[14:04] bergfrau Apfelbaum: add it

[14:04] herman Bergson: Good idea, Bergie

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what was the name of it

[14:04] herman Bergson: Class dismissed......

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think i should have it on me

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): used it yesterday

[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[14:04] bergfrau Apfelbaum: happy on

[14:05] Medussa Reddevil: woohoo

[14:05] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay

[14:05] Medussa Reddevil: YAY! (yay!)

[14:05] herman Bergson: yay

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in the end all is good after all

[14:05] Ian Newt: We hope that the asteroid that is currently not a danger to hit the earth, that is the target of the NASA mission to test its 'asteroid deflection' system, doesn't become a threat by accident.

[14:05] Medussa Reddevil: omalord