1106: No need for Atheism.....

Everything humans have accomplished anywhere—from architecture to music, from art to science—developed hand in hand with religion, never separately. 

  

It is impossible, therefore, to know what morality would look like without religion. It would require a visit to a human culture that is not now and never was religious. That such cultures do not exist is an interesting fact. 

  

Although science and since recently Artificial Intelligence play a major role in society, it is good to realize that science didn't start out as a rational enterprise.

  

In the Middle Ages alchemy was a mix of the occult, superstition, and experiments. It turned into an empirical science only when it liberated itself from these influences and developed self-correcting procedures.

   

But did this development make science contribute to a moral society? Even when we know all the facts, they don't tell us what we ought to do.

   

Other primates, of course, have none of these problems, but even they strive for a certain kind of society. In their behavior, we recognize the same values we pursue ourselves. 

   

For example, female chimpanzees have been seen to drag reluctant males toward each other to make up after a fight, while removing weapons from their hands. 

  

We see animals that work together to achieve a specific goal, chimpanzees that help each other to obtain food. You could see these hints of community concerns as a sigh

  

that the building blocks of morality are older than mankind and that we don't need a god to explain how we got to where we are today.

   

What it is all about is the striking fact that the main topic of atheism, the existence or non-existence of a god, is in fact completely uninteresting. 

    

What do you hope to get from a debate about the existence of something no one can prove or disprove? A waste of time.

  

The main point to make here is, that when you look at the evolution, we can conclude that there were social animals, animals that had a sense and care for community and cooperation, long before homo sapiens appeared on the stage.

   

It is an illusion to believe that science is an unbiased system of facts, from which we can draw conclusions. The belief that more knowledge leads to a better society, is questionable.

   

Certainly, teaching people to think properly, stay factual and logical, try to be impartial and honest, great features, but they don't come from scientific discoveries. They come from within us.

   

The view of morality as a set of immutable principles, or laws, that are ours to discover ultimately comes from religion. 

   

It doesn’t matter whether God, human reason, or science formulates these laws. 

  

All of these approaches share a top-down orientation, their chief premise being that humans don’t know how to behave and that someone must tell them. A popular attitude of religions: humiliating the individual to subject it to religious control.

   

But get back to my previous remark: long before there was homo sapiens there were animals on this planet, that had a social life, lived in groups, and showed a sense of community and care for each other.

  

This would indicate that morality doesn't come from some transcendental being or oracle, but lives in our genes. It is just a matter of finding out how this quality has evolved and is integrated in our lives.

   

Maybe this we can learn from observing other primates.

  

Thank you for your attention again....

   Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Frans de Waal: The Bonobo and the Atheist (2013)

Frans de Waal: Evolved Morality (2014)

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                                              9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                              10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                               10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                              29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

24 - Materialism                                                      7 Sept 2022   /  1011

25 - Historical Materialism                                       5 Oct 2023    /  1088

26 - Th Bonobo and the Atheist                               9 Jan 2024    /  1102

The Discussion

[13:15] Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Herman.

[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:16] herman Bergson: Animals, other primates are no moral beings.

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): female chimpanzees have been seen to drag reluctant males toward each other to make up after a fight...maybe a good way to end wars

[13:17] herman Bergson: But they show behavior that we as humans value too.

[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:17] Max Chatnoir: I wonder what the boundary between morality and community opinion is?

[13:17] herman Bergson: At least among Chimpanzees, Beertje

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): perhaps a good idea for humans too

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess could work yes

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:19] herman Bergson: Morality goes further Max. Contrary to animals we can have an opinion about right and wrong, even if the issue doesn't concern us directly.

[13:19] Max Chatnoir: True!

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): our main problem is our greed for power

[13:20] herman Bergson: Some even explicitly advise to teach children altruism, as it doesn't seem present in our basic drives

[13:21] bergfrau Apfelbaum: @ “What do you hope to get from a debate about the existence of something that no one can prove or disprove?” Fairy tales aren’t necessarily a waste of time :-)

[13:21] herman Bergson: Homo sapiens seems to be pretty selfish by nature :-))

[13:21] herman Bergson: Ok Bergie, the debate can be amusing :-))

[13:21] Max Chatnoir: Who was it who said I would give up my life for two brothers or 8 cousins?

[13:22] Max Chatnoir: The idea was to promote the survival of the family genes.

[13:22] herman Bergson: I have no idea, Max

[13:22] Max Chatnoir: So altruism has some biological value.

[13:22] Max Chatnoir: I'll google it.

[13:23] herman Bergson: It definitely has some biological value

[13:23] Max Chatnoir: Ah, Haldane!

[13:24] bergfrau Apfelbaum: call ma Altri:-)

[13:24] herman Bergson: But the idea is that the primary impulse is to act selfish

[13:24] Max Chatnoir: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/05/05/brothers/

[13:24] herman Bergson: Never heard of Haldane

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nope

[13:25] herman Bergson: Neo-Darwinist

[13:26] herman Bergson: Died in 1964

[13:26] Max Chatnoir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._B._S._Haldane

[13:28] herman Bergson: I guess we are done with the debate unless you still have a remark or question?

[13:28] Max Chatnoir: Well, I think that trying to decide how to behave well, is worth doing.

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have no remark today

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Max

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes, that is what morality is about

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm I don't know how to develop this much firther but saying that the suggestions proposes seems indeed like an idea

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as said, some peoples greed for power throw a wrench in it all

[13:30] herman Bergson: Power corrupts the mind of some people

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then 1 man can hold millions hostage, like Putin and Kon Jong and aso chinas communist party

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just a few people hold billions of others hostage

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a BIG problem

[13:31] herman Bergson: Hard to understand

[13:31] Max Chatnoir: I've been disturbed at the political diatribes of some of the candidates for the US election.

[13:31] Max Chatnoir: A lot of name-calling.

[13:31] herman Bergson: They give me the shivers too, Max

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm yes

[13:32] herman Bergson: It is not adult behavior

[13:32] Max Chatnoir: Exactly, and it isn't rational!

[13:32] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i also believe that morality is in the genes.... but there are people who lack this gene

[13:33] herman Bergson: We have about 245 days till  we get the answer

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so for sure

[13:33] Max Chatnoir: If the point of discussion is to find a good way for the country to be managed, we aren't doing very well.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (sighs)

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just hope the right thing happens

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in the end

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all we can do I guess

[13:34] herman Bergson: Like many hu,man qualities Bergie we see the Gaussian curve....

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:35] herman Bergson: some people are stupid, som are very clever and the remainder of the population is distributed in between the extremes

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what about the influence of the media?

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:36] herman Bergson: The media are also just human beings with  their preferences and biases....

[13:37] bergfrau Apfelbaum: back to paper mail

[13:37] Max Chatnoir: Yes, and we tend to pay attention to the media that reflects our own values.

[13:37] herman Bergson: The problem is more the question what and why are people willing to believe some things, statements etc.

[13:38] Max Chatnoir: That is a puzzle, allright!

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Max

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the issue with media is their desire like all others to sell and so they blow up news to larger proportions then they really are to have something to put on the frontpage so more people will buy the paper

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sometimes we therefore cant trust even the news

[13:39] herman Bergson: So we seek  or prefer to seek confirmation.

[13:39] herman Bergson: The money involved is indeed a huge problem

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:40] Max Chatnoir: Yes, I've been appalled at how much money gets involved in political decisions.

[13:40] Max Chatnoir: How can that be legal?

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause the lawmakers themselves are bribed i guess

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): corruption everywhere

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a mess

[13:41] herman Bergson: HOw money makes politics in the US is unbelievable

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ITS ALL BOUT THE MONEY! ITS ALL BOUT THE DUMDADUMDUMDUM!

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it is

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said, a mess

[13:43] herman Bergson: Well, let's continue our search for the origins of morality in a nex lecture :-)

[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Educating the legislators is one thing, but just paying them off is horrible.

[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:45] Max Chatnoir: I always enjoy your talks and these discussions.

[13:45] Max Chatnoir: :-)

1105: The IS - OUGHT question.....

 As David Hume (1711- 1776) already concluded: reason is the slave of passions. And when you look at our behavior, we think we are rational beings, so different from other primates,

   

but this rationality.... well, it is a handy tool in life, but if you look at yourself in all honesty, you must conclude that maybe 90% of your actions are motivated by passions and sentiments.

  

We see this in other primates too, - think of the Capucins in the previous lecture- but this doesn't make a chimp or bonobo a "moral being". We strive for a logically coherent system and have debates about 

  

how the death penalty fits arguments for the sanctity of life, or whether an unchosen sexual orientation can be morally wrong. These debates are uniquely human. 

   

Animals respond to their own passions and sentiments, which affect themselves directly. They act and don't judge the appropriateness of their actions.

  

Homo sapiens, however, can think about good and bad also regarding matters that do not affect him directly.  This is what sets human morality apart: a move toward universal standards combined with an elaborate system of justification, monitoring, and punishment. 

   

This is the product of our reason and rationality, but our behavior is much more than reason and rationality. Like religion has taught us, or made use of this basic human characteristic, behavior is based largely on punishment and reward.

   

Humans are in fact so sensitive to public opinion that we only need to see a picture of two eyes glued to the wall to respond with good behavior. Religion understood this long ago and uses the image of an all-seeing eye to symbolize an omniscient God. 

   

And what do you think about the modern eye of today: the surveillance cameras everywhere. In China, it seems to have become even a system to keep an eye on every individual citizen and his behavior, including a rating system. God anno 2024.

   

In China, they don't need religion, but cameras to control the people. In Western society it was religion, but we see an increase in secularization and atheism.

    

In a way, you could say that science has become the new religion for us. Give me the facts and then we'll see. We have gotten used to strident atheism arguing that God is not great (Christopher Hitchens) or is a delusion (Richard Dawkins). 

   

Scientists are good at finding out why things are the way they are, or how they work, and biology may help us understand why morality looks the way it does. 

   

Religion, like art and music, is a cultural phenomenon. Take, for instance, music. In fact a completely meaningless form of organized sound, but we love it. It has nothing to do with science, with clear knowledge, but we love it.

    

We probably even need it. Palestrina, Pergolesi, Cardoso, Lobo...composers who composed the most enchanting music or take Gregorian chants. 

     

That is what religion produced as well as a lot of other magnificent art and architecture. Reason is the slave of our passions.

   

What I want to say is, that this stringent atheism isn't an answer to the question of the origins of morality, nor is science. Science offers us facts and answers to why and how.

    

But it does not offer the possibility to answer the famous question posed by David Hume: the IS - OUGHT question. 

   

That means: how can you (logically) deduce from what IS the case, what you OUGHT to be the case, and what you ought to do?

   

Thank you for your attention again...

  

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Frans de Waal: The Bonobo and the Atheist (2013)

Frans de Waal: Evolved Morality (2014)

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                                              9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                              10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                               10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                              29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

24 - Materialism                                                      7 Sept 2022   /  1011

25 - Historical Materialism                                       5 Oct 2023    /  1088

26 - Th Bonobo and the Atheist                               9 Jan 2024    /  1102

The Discussion

[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:15] herman Bergson: Take your time to think about it :-)

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Thinks

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmm

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Agrees science is a source of understanding almost everything

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the more we know the more we know

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the more questions we have too

[13:18] herman Bergson: Yes...but it doesn't answer the Is - Ought question

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed yes

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:18] Max Chatnoir: No, we have to figure that one out AND figure out how to figure it out.

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess so

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are all talking double today

[13:19] herman Bergson: As Hume already said...ok...here are the facts...but how do I move to what I ought to do based on these facts?

[13:20] Max Chatnoir: Well, I find the abortion issue particularly vexing.  Facts don't help.

[13:20] herman Bergson: One idea is that facts are related to a goal.....

[13:20] herman Bergson: Let's think about abortion indeed Max....a serious issue

[13:21] herman Bergson: Facts are

[13:21] herman Bergson: a woman is pregnant

[13:21] herman Bergson: woman does not want give birth to a child

[13:22] herman Bergson: the goal is to create new life with happiness and a future

[13:22] herman Bergson: there is no happiness and future for the new life

[13:23] herman Bergson: no  home, no safety, no real motherly care, or even a threat of the life of the mother due to physical issues

[13:23] herman Bergson: what ought we to do?

[13:23] bergfrau Apfelbaum: It is the decision of the woman and ONLY the woman. or if she is raped and becomes pregnant......

[13:24] herman Bergson: that does not answer the question what we OUGHT to do

[13:24] herman Bergson: and WHY we OUGHT to act in a certain way

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is the dilemma

[13:26] herman Bergson: There is a kind of OBLIGATION in the OUGHT....and we have to figure out where this obligation comes from. That is the ethical question here

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we have to respect the woman if she wants an abortion,

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even if it is for the wrong reasons

[13:26] herman Bergson: Good point Beertje.....respect for the person

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:27] Max Chatnoir: I'm absolutely pro choice, and cases like the woman with the trisomy 13 (I think) child seem clearly in favor of the woman.

[13:27] herman Bergson: Respect for the other makes us the social animal we are

[13:27] herman Bergson: Questin MAx....

[13:27] Max Chatnoir: And I don't see why a woman who has already suffered from rape should be obliged to continue reliving it for months.

[13:28] herman Bergson: What does "Pro Life"mean?

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): this question has been around from the beginning of time

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am pro life but pro freedom for the woman to choose

[13:29] herman Bergson: I hear a lot of "Pro Life"movement, but I still don't know where they stand

[13:29] bergfrau Apfelbaum: The church said you couldn't do that. the church also says that you are not allowed to covet. it is dirty. But sex without desire is boring :-) no?

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): pro life   .. wanting life to come from pregnancy

[13:29] herman Bergson: That simple?

[13:29] Max Chatnoir: But being OK usually with capital punishment.

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but knowing there are scientific reasons it cant

[13:30] herman Bergson: You mean, if pregnant...just deliver the baby please?

[13:30] Max Chatnoir: ProLife isn't a good term for it.

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep max

[13:30] Max Chatnoir: Pro choice and Anti choice.

[13:30] Max Chatnoir: choice

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not anti choice

[13:31] herman Bergson: The sounds better :-)

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): pro life is an opinion

[13:31] herman Bergson: So Pro life means Pro Choice?

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in some minds yes

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am against capital punishment

[13:32] herman Bergson: and in other minds it means Against Choice?

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:32] Max Chatnoir: Or YOU don't get to choose, but I do.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Condusing people those Americans :-)))

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in some minds NO medical abortion even

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is weird

[13:32] herman Bergson: this is really weird indeed

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a woman can be dying by carrying a fetus  and doctors cant help it is against the law in some states

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Texas

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): omg

[13:33] Max Chatnoir: Yes, like the Trisomy case.

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes I have heard about these horrible cases.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: So...

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders again)3

[13:34] herman Bergson: there are the facts in relation to a pregnancy...

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it sureey is a tricky and sensitive subject but..

[13:34] herman Bergson: and there is the question ...what ought we to do in this case

[13:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: then the pregnant woman flies a piece and has it done somewhere else. This ban does nothing

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some cannot even afford to do that tho

[13:35] herman Bergson: If it were that  simple Bergie.....you need money for that

[13:35] Max Chatnoir: Well, assuming that she can leave where she is....

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many cant

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): anyway

[13:35] Neuro Wonder: well certainly there are cases we give ourselves moral license to kill, such as feeling threatened in our own home. or in war.

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i texas that works ... right

[13:36] herman Bergson: Oh yes Neuro...THOU SHALL NOT KILL

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): someone knocks on the door and gets shot

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thru the door

[13:36] bergfrau Apfelbaum: mhm, that is correct. i hope it will be legal everywhere soon

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): looking for help for a broken down car

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm thats Texas indeed, hillbillyland

[13:36] herman Bergson: marvelous commandment...but we added the word UNLESS to it :-))

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders once again)

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh very confusing life

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:37] Max Chatnoir: Yes, that is tricky also.  How threatened do you have to feel to feel justified in taking the shot?

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sent you a cartoon Herman

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): did you get it?

[13:37] herman Bergson: Don't think so...

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): https://gyazo.com/2447acf7f3b6cf195b29a33b8686a3b8

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): love that

[13:38] Neuro Wonder: In some pregnancy cases the woman feels threatened by the tumor growing inside her

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well, this is grad school here :-))

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Neuro my mother did nto go to the doctor for 5 months because she thought I was a tumor

[13:39] herman Bergson: Let's put it in our context....

[13:40] Max Chatnoir: Well, what a happy surprise.  :-)

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:40] Neuro Wonder: I think Buddha was right that kindness is the ultimate wisdom

[13:40] herman Bergson: We have to find an answer to where the OUGHT comes from.....the basic moral feeling.....

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): she had been told she could not have children

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok

[13:40] Neuro Wonder: That's really sad, Gemma

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): kindness and respect Neuro

[13:40] herman Bergson: and then think of the Capucins we watched on Tuesday....

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but i made it!!!

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and 2 more after me

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes u are here luckily

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki ㋡

[13:41] Neuro Wonder: He everyone we gotta tumor roaming around, offering philosophical insights here and there

[13:41] herman Bergson: Bddha is the ultimate Bonobo :-))

[13:41] Max Chatnoir: ;-)

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): amazing stuff

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Buddha was amazing too

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Buddhism is one of few religions i actually like

[13:42] Neuro Wonder: Want your mind blown, read the Dhammapada

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is not a religion

[13:42] herman Bergson: Well...I guess I gave you enogh stuff to think about this coming weekend :-)

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Buddhism and shintoism

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is a way of life

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are peaceful

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's not a religion Bejiita

[13:43] Neuro Wonder: I speak only of Buddhism the philosophy

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed its more of a lifestyle

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes that is also in question

[13:43] herman Bergson: Buddhism is not a religion

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:43] Max Chatnoir: When my Mom got pregnant with my little sister she had been told that another pregnancy might kill her.  Fortunately, it didn't, but imagine those days of worry.

[13:43] Neuro Wonder: The religion was added after Buddha's death and includes rituals that I think not even the Buddha would have approved of

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and buddha was a real person not a supernatural cloud being

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): probably neuro

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): same with christianity

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and other religions

[13:44] herman Bergson: interesting observation indeed

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:44] Neuro Wonder: No I'm pretty sure Jesus wanted to be worshipped

[13:44] herman Bergson: I disagree Neuro

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Question is, was jesus a real person or os he just a legend = son of god?

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at least some of his followers said that

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): history says real

[13:45] Neuro Wonder: Although Jesus, like Buddha, would not have approved of building giant gold Buddhas when there is mass suffering going on

[13:45] Max Chatnoir: and apparently with a real Y chromosome from someplace.

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): exactly

[13:45] herman Bergson: The absurdity of the Jesus person is that he had to be a human sacrific ordered by his Father....

[13:46] herman Bergson: for some religious purpose...quite absurd

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but that was what his followers did

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nto him

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if you read carefully

[13:46] herman Bergson: nono...he was predestined for that fate, Gemma

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who said

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Matthew

[13:47] Neuro Wonder: Can you imagine Jesus looking walking into a church. do you think he's say "Goddammnit, Dad. They put me up on a cross. Jesus Christs. Not flattering at all."

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Mark

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Luke

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and John

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): said

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and where does this legens come from that he is first crucifies and then comes back ti life short after, from wich we get all our holidays like christmas and easter ect

[13:47] herman Bergson: He came to free the people of the sin commited in Paradise, the eating of the apple

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): his fahter was Joseph???

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they wrote the new testement

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i mean I learned about these in 1st class in school more or less but

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): He did not

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i guess its a mix of reality and storytelling in the end

[13:47] herman Bergson: To undo the original sin

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wich makes up in the end the bible

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): according to those named above

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also other religious books

[13:48] Neuro Wonder: Thing is, there's all these biblical texts after the advent of reason and rationality.

[13:48] herman Bergson: As I learned as a child...

[13:48] Neuro Wonder: Of course, having a writing system and preserving documentation plays a part.

[13:48] herman Bergson: you had heavan....purgatory....and hell

[13:49] Neuro Wonder: Conquerors often destroyed the scripts to write their own history.

[13:49] herman Bergson: but all souls went to purgatory...untillthe death of Jesus released them to go to heaven

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:50] Max Chatnoir: Oh, I had not heard that one!

[13:50] herman Bergson: so...th echristian god needed a human sacrific to open the doors

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how did they know?

[13:51] herman Bergson: it is no knowledge Beertje...it is phatasy

[13:51] herman Bergson: phantasy

[13:51] Neuro Wonder: The biblical things often serve as the political process for the exploitation of our human skills with reason and rationality, derived from the evolutionary need to cooperate for survival of the species.

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, that I know,,but why were they convinced in those phantasy?

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said, the bible is a good storybook at best

[13:51] herman Bergson: Well, MAx, that was what I was taught in primary school

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause thats what it is

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): faith bejita

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): remember?

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the secret sauce making it "work"

[13:52] Max Chatnoir: So nobody was good enough for heaven on his own?

[13:52] herman Bergson: Not until Jesus died at the cross

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): your memory is a bit confused Herman

[13:53] Neuro Wonder: lol just the question of where did the souls go

[13:53] herman Bergson: Oh dear....you think so Gemma?

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): purgatory is the place where people go til they have attoned for their sins

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): then they go to heaven

[13:53] herman Bergson: yes yes....but they weren't allowed toheaven due to the original sin....until Jesus died

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in swedish its called Skärselden = lit cutting fire

[13:54] herman Bergson: after that purgatory was just a busstop to heaven indeed :-)

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the Cutting fire

[13:55] herman Bergson: That is really what I was told....that is what Jesus did...free the souls from purgatory

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: The Bible is something you can believe in. Like other names or a sausage roll. It was supposed to help me and give me strength. Ergo, faith is self-interest. and everything should be respected as long as you don't annoy the other person.

[13:55] herman Bergson smiles

[13:55] herman Bergson: ok Bergie :-)

[13:55] Neuro Wonder: We have a believing brain

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Where did Old Testament believers go when they died?

They suggest that Old Testament saints who died went to the realm called “Abraham's bosom” (cf. Luke 16:22–23) — a sort of holding tank. According to this theory, these believers were kept in that compartment of Hades and not brought into the heaven of heavens until Christ conquered death in His resurrection.

[13:56] herman Bergson: We have a brain that likes to believe all kinds of things :-)

[13:56] Neuro Wonder: I would love to have an imaginary friend to talk to and ask for help

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): would be great

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:57] herman Bergson: Well there you have it, Gemma!

[13:57] Neuro Wonder: won't be long with AI i'll basically have that

[13:57] Max Chatnoir: There's a thought!

[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Bard is pretty good

[[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): buy a teddybear Neuro

[1[1[13:58] Neuro Wonder: we will want to use AI to find answers the exact way we like them when we need them

[13:58] Neuro Wonder: nobody will have to force us

[13:58] herman Bergson: I love this theological end of our discussion...:-))

[13:58] herman Bergson: AMEN

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....lol

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): AMEN

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok!!!KIK

[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or ENTER as programmers say

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:58] herman Bergson: Tjank you all agai....was really fun this time

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Gaat heen en vermenigvuldigd U

[13:58] Max Chatnoir: To create the AI, we would have to have figured it out.

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many fun versions exists

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ,:)

[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Will try for Tuesday

[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class :-) refreshing hour

[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay

[13:59] Neuro Wonder: my canine creature next to me enjoyed this and would like a teddy bear

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahahhahahaahha

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loooool

[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:59] Max Chatnoir: Yes, your dog looks very sweet!

[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the AI says ENTER

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nobody in this classroom understands what I said

[14:00] herman Bergson: Have a noce weekend, you all :-)

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and we move on to cards?

[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡