997: How to Please the Mob........

As we know from the history books, England, Germany and France were the leading countries in Europe. 

  

Moreover, after 1815, of course, we first look at France. It had gone through a bloody revolution and dictatorship and was busy getting its government in order. 

  

This time, with the revolution still fresh in mind, it had to be a democratic government with a king as the icing on the cake. 

  

A matter of some historical sense, I'd say. Democratic self-government by the people was a NO GO. 

    

Perhaps it would have been workable in the Greek city-states, but it was impracticable in large nation-states.

   

This led to the argument that in the modern state freedom was not related to self-government by the people. 

   

That supposed connection was not so much wrong, but just anachronistic, completely from another time. 

  

Remains civil liberty, which we have already discussed in previous lectures. How do we secure it? 

  

Rather than worrying about who is allowed to exercise sovereign power, citizens should first and foremost try to define the scope of that power, 

  

or as one political philosopher put it: "It is the amount of power we should denounce, not the rulers themselves" (...)

   

 "Let us, therefore, cross out the words 'oppress', and 'exterminate' and even remove them from the dictionary of government. 

   

For thought, for education, for industry, the motto of the government must be: Laissez-faire et laissez-passer".(let be and let pass).

     

These were the words of the Henri-Benjamin Constant de Rebecque, or simply Benjamin Constant (1767 - 1830), a Swiss-French political thinker, activist, and writer on political theory and religion. 

    

Clearly a member of the European elite. Based on his preference for minimal government, he developed a new appreciation for individual rights. 

  

We may not be allowed to say it out loud, but it is of course a logical move if you want to keep the people out of government and politics.

  

According to the Atlantean revolutionaries, individual rights, also called natural rights, were closely linked to the idea of ​​rule by the people. 

   

Liberals like Constant wanted to forget that idea. According to him, we should regard the rights as the demarcation of a private domain free from interference from the state. 

  

Lists of rights he drafted include freedom of expression, right to property, right to a fair trial and the like,

  

 but not the right to participate in government. Infringement of these rights was illegal, no matter how much democratic support the government might have. 

  

If the law started interfering with those rights of human existence, then who cares what kind of government you have, was his idea. 

    

And with that, you have the blueprint of the liberal (elitist) state: "Let be and let pass" goes for interfering with the common people as long as it obeys the law. 

  

The underlying idea was in fact that the most important political theme, the state economy, in other words, the taxpayers' money, thus remained out of sight of the people, 

   

but the rich upper class naturally wants to have an influence on it and after all that revolutions, it must also have a somewhat democratic form. 

      

And with that, we get all those inventions, the traces of which are still clearly present in our current system. 

  

In the 19st century the elite came to the conclusion that only they were really capable of voting and supplying representatives and then a two-chamber system was useful. 

   

A Second Chamber for the lesser nobility and wealthy and a First Chamber for the real nobility, or something like that. A bit in line with the British parliamentary system at the time. 

  

The universal principle: one man / one vote for every citizen in a country was unimaginable. 

   

One famous consequence of this line of thinking is the Electoral College in the US, which was the target of Trump's Coup d'Etat in January 2022. 

   

Thank you for your attention again....

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Annelien de Dijn: "Freedom. An unruly history".  2020

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

The Discussion

[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman'

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:20] herman Bergson: So if you look closely you see that a certain elite in Europe tries to construct a situation where they can control the state and the mob

[13:20] herman Bergson: voting rights only for nobility and wealthy....

[13:21] herman Bergson: Men only of course

[13:22] herman Bergson: A two chambers parlaiment where the Second Chamber is for the rich middle class, to keep them in peace

[13:22] herman Bergson: The mob may only work and pay taxes

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): nothing has changed

[13:23] herman Bergson: Even worse Beertje

[13:23] herman Bergson: in a next lecture I'll show you that in the US Republicans are returning to 19th century ideas....

[13:23] oola Neruda: grrrrrrrrrrrrr

[13:24] oola Neruda: sounds true

[13:24] herman Bergson: their new mantra is....The US is not a democracy, but a constitutional republic

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no voting for women anymore?

[13:24] herman Bergson: I'll get to that next time

[13:25] herman Bergson: Just compare this period around 1850 and voting rights with the current voting rights

[13:26] oola Neruda: gerrymandering etc

[13:26] herman Bergson: there still is from then still a long way to go

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed lot of things to do

[13:27] oola Neruda: new laws... plus intimidation when registering

[13:27] herman Bergson: from 1850 to 1950...

[13:28] herman Bergson: I think that till 1964 The Voting Rights Act in the US black people even didn't have voting rights at all, but I may be mistaken here

[13:28] herman Bergson: Voting rights for women...1923....

[13:28] oola Neruda: they had to jump through stupid hoops and then be told they did not do it right... so... can't vote

[13:28] oola Neruda: back then

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): really??

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eeeh

[13:29] oola Neruda: recite the constitution or things like that

[13:29] oola Neruda: or how many jellybeans are in this jar

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "EEE NO u have to do it like a porn star!"

[13:29] oola Neruda: unbelievable

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...from 1850 there had to be a huge fight to come for voting rights

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)

[13:30] oola Neruda: KKK

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): those also

[13:30] oola Neruda: Jim Crow

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes another weird story oola

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): these people are human beings laike you and me, hoe could they do that

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sorry typos

[13:31] oola Neruda: Jim Crow... was the name of the laws as well as the attitude

[13:31] herman Bergson: Well...compare it with our present situation.....

[13:31] oola Neruda: now they just gerrymander the district to the votes are low

[13:31] oola Neruda: district

[13:31] herman Bergson: today politics is not about voting rights.....getting political influence

[13:32] herman Bergson: things in those days were blocked by an old elite of nobility and the like....

[13:32] herman Bergson: But today this elite is the rich people...the top 1% in society

[13:32] oola Neruda: and the KKK

[13:32] herman Bergson: They do the same the old elite in 1850 did

[13:33] oola Neruda: in the US

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes oola....and they simply buy the seats in the Houses

[13:33] oola Neruda: yes

[13:33] herman Bergson: Just think of the Koch Brothers

[13:33] oola Neruda: the Kochs are awful

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Power and greed as usual

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nothing have changed

[13:34] oola Neruda: they even affect local elections... almost to the point of dogcatcher

[13:34] herman Bergson: They control politics oola

[13:34] herman Bergson: or take the present situation f Twitter.....

[13:34] oola Neruda: yes

[13:35] oola Neruda: follow the money... again i say it

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:35] herman Bergson: ONE SINGLE MAN buys influence in it for more than 40 billion dollars....

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (ramps up LHC to full energy and prepares to blast the greeedy bastards with it)

[13:35] herman Bergson: and that INE man can disrupt US politics by one stroke of his pen by allowing Trump back on Twitter

[13:36] oola Neruda: and facebook... i was kicked off the instant... the instant... that i said that Trump lied about the vote

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there was some lady i saw challenging Trump

[13:36] oola Neruda: makes me think of BIG BROTHER

[13:36] herman Bergson: SO as Beertje said....nothing has changed......

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess at least for now

[13:37] herman Bergson: Was it the old nobility in 1850....today it is the money nobility that pulls the strings

[13:37] herman Bergson: sociologically it is the same structure

[13:38] herman Bergson: And keep in mind...that old nobility was the group that owned most of the land....that was wealth in those days

[13:38] herman Bergson: today you have to own shares and stocks

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the stock market rules the world now

[13:39] herman Bergson: owning land onlycosts money :-)

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:40] herman Bergson: It is an amazing perspective, I'd say :-)

[13:40] oola Neruda: IS TRUE

[13:40] herman Bergson: Leaves us with a few interesting issues...

[13:41] oola Neruda: tax dodges?

[13:41] herman Bergson: the first one is...how did voting rights develop through time since 1850

[13:42] oola Neruda: women fought for them

[13:42] oola Neruda: FOUGHT

[13:42] herman Bergson: a second may be this peculiar shift of power from land nobility to money "nobility" ( the Gateses and Muskses and Besoses)

[13:43] herman Bergson: and the third issue is...as we are where we are now.....what will it become in the (near) future

[13:43] oola Neruda: lobbyists in congress.. (bribes, really)

[13:44] herman Bergson: The Sienemas and Manchins, oola

[13:44] oola Neruda: yes... them too

[13:45] herman Bergson: Lots of interesting matters to look into in my opinion

[13:45] oola Neruda: teddie cruze ... don't forget him

[13:46] herman Bergson: oh dear...... no cursing in class please, oola ^_^

[13:46] oola Neruda: lolol sorry

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hhehe

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): &/&/"#&"/(!/"&7!!!!!!!!!!

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:46] oola Neruda: gasp

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:47] herman Bergson: Well, I am ready for a next lecture

[13:47] herman Bergson: So...thank you all again....

[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismissed .....

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:47] oola Neruda: thank YOU

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

 

996: At the treshhold.....

 Let's take a closer look at the situation. It is the period after 1815. On its way to 1900, but in the second half of the 19th century a lot is still going to happen. 

  

The fear was well felt. When hereditary rulers and traditional elites regained power, they began to suppress ideas and movements that threatened to spark new revolutionary unrest. 

   

The aim of these movements was always the demand that the whole people should be involved in the government. 

  

This led to a number of political assassinations and demonstrations by radical groups in Germany, France and England and extremely repressive reactions from the ruling class. 

  

All over Europe, those in authority drove radical democrats and alleged revolutionaries underground. Against this background, we must understand the rise of the liberal political movement. 

   

The adjective "liberal" originally referred to people who gave generously. But in the early decades of the nineteenth century, the word took on a political connotation. 

   

The term referred to politicians and political thinkers who championed a third path, somewhere between royal absolutism and revolutionary democracy. 

  

This is where the road to the situation we now find ourselves in, at least in the Netherlands, begins: 

   

a parliamentary system and next to it a king, who now has nothing to say politically. 

  

In fact, if this king were to make a political statement, all political hell would break loose here. 

   

But historically we have not yet reached that stage in our research into freedom. 

  

Liberals opposed the Restoration's attempt to turn the clock back to the Ancien Regime, as pure absolutism was termed in France. 

  

They had no nostalgia for the absolute monarchy or the feudal order destroyed in 1789. They often sided with the revolutionary attack on the Catholic Church, which many of them viewed as an obscurantist force. 

  

They tended to be more sympathetic to Protestantism. That Protestantism and its political significance can still be seen today, especially in the Bible Belt of the United States. 

   

At the same time, liberals strongly rejected the democratic legacy of the revolutionary period. 

   

Because of its negative associations with Jacobinism and Napoleonic despotism, post-revolutionary elites and even former radicals had come to view democracy as an abhorrent political system. 

    

There was a tendency to favor parliamentarism, that is, the idea that legislation should be in the hands of elected deputies, not a king or queen. 

   

But the liberals' support for parliaments or representative governments was by no means the same as support for democracy. 

   

Most liberals agreed that voting rights should be limited to those considered "capable," a category that many liberal thinkers believe belonged to only a small fraction of the wealthiest segment of the population. 

   

The counter-revolutionaries had understood freedom as "bourgeois" and not as "political" freedom, and this naturally appealed to this new liberal movement. 

   

Liberals were the party of freedom, the opponents of royal despotism. But liberals always emphasized 

  

that the freedom they envisioned was not the freedom of a people's government, the freedom that had led to Jacobinism and the Terror. 

   

To refresh your memory: The Jacobins were the most radical and ruthless of the political groups formed in the wake of the French Revolution,

    

and in association with Robespierre they instituted the Terror of 1793–1794 with more than 10,000 deaths in France . 

  

No, it was the people's freedom to enjoy their lives and property in peace. 

  

With that, the anti-democratic theory of freedom became a central tenet of the liberal platform in many countries. 

  

This is the moment in history, when the fight began between all kinds of groups in society, to get a say in government and in what laws were made.

  

Thank you for your attention again...

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Annelien de Dijn: "Freedom. An unruly history".  2020

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: This is an important moment in history....

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:24] herman Bergson: In fact it is the time our "democracy" as it is now, was born

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:24] herman Bergson: and here I only speak for the Netherlands

[13:25] herman Bergson: What you see grow here is a mix of old stuff...kings and the like and a parliamentary system

[13:25] herman Bergson: where the king/ruler is deprived of right after right

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same as here in Sweden. We also have a king but with no power, he just "represents " Sweden

[13:26] herman Bergson: Like the Dutch king today...a completely redundant individual actually

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is decoration

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:27] herman Bergson: I wished he was a XMas decoration...then I could hang him in the XMas tree ^_^

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is too heavy

[13:28] herman Bergson: true

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): send me a 3d scan of him and I can 3d print some statues

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to put in tree

[13:28] herman Bergson: His pockets full of our tax money ^_^

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh yes

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm indeed

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is very expensive

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have not gotten what he is good for but it still works the same way with inheritance and crownings of kings and queens and princes. A whole family but with no real purpose

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): other then showing in media

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ooooo they got a little prince! look how cute he is!

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that prince can never live a normal life

[13:30] herman Bergson grins

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes they  procreate :-)

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's normal to them bejiita

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): live in a castle YES. Live like them NO

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or well i dont know but they seem so isolated

[13:31] theo Velde is online.

[13:31] herman Bergson: But politically...if we re-focus on the concept of freedom we  have reached some kind of general consensus around 1840...

[13:32] herman Bergson: The concept of "civil freedom" had done its job

[13:32] herman Bergson: tell the people that they can do whatever they like as long as they obey the law...

[13:32] oola Neruda: except in the US where Native Americans were BULLIED and the KKK ran so much of the action

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)

[13:33] herman Bergson: We, the elite, will discuss among ourselves what laws are good for you....don't worry

[13:33] oola Neruda: hmmmm right

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's a sign to worry a lot

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:34] oola Neruda: $$$$$$$

[13:34] herman Bergson: oola...the story of the real owners of North Amerika is  one of the biggest horror stories and collection of war crimes and genocide ever

[13:34] oola Neruda: YES!!!!

[13:35] herman Bergson: But our math-books may not contain any reference to that....so...no drawings of natives or the like

[13:35] herman Bergson: Viva Florida :-)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true true and romanticized by wild west stories

[13:36] oola Neruda: nods

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cowboys against indians

[13:36] herman Bergson: Long live freedom and the first Amendment :-)

[13:36] oola Neruda: and the right to carry guns

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): along with saloon fights train robberies and duelling

[13:37] herman Bergson: Historicaaly we live ina very interesting time.....

[13:37] oola Neruda: may you live in interesting times... is a curse

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:37] oola Neruda: that is how it is meant

[13:37] herman Bergson: The European democracies suffer of growing right wing groups....which however politicsally still do not achieve much...

[13:38] herman Bergson: Democracy still stands

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ys

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hopefully

[13:39] herman Bergson: In the country that has claimed for decades to be THE leader of democracy a former president really has tried to organize a coup d'etat to end democracy

[13:39] oola Neruda: sigh

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm crazy indeed

[13:39] herman Bergson: interesting test of that democracy...will it still stand....?

[13:39] oola Neruda: ???

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I hope so for sure

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes me too

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now we have Putin trying to kill it with nukes

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is it still a democracy?

[13:40] oola Neruda: they are working on it.... but WHO is working on it

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders even more)

[13:40] oola Neruda: FOX news.... for one

[13:40] herman Bergson: I'd say yes Beertje....still

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Fox news......it's undermining democracy

[13:41] oola Neruda: exactly

[13:41] herman Bergson: But what becomes clearer by the day is that there really was a organized group of Americans who wanted to convert their country in an autocracy under Trump

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:42] oola Neruda: nods

[13:42] herman Bergson: amazing.....but the more we learn about it the more shocking it becomes

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): think of autocrat Trump...what benefit would the people have by that man?

[13:42] oola Neruda: a lot of manipulation behind it

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Trump standing there like Hitler and revving up the mob

[13:43] herman Bergson: Like Putin Bejiita....that was his great example and idol

[13:43] oola Neruda: they promised no abortions... and all kinds of fundamentalist christians bought the bait   

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like Putin as well

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): these things should not happen today, its like we are going backwards in time back to the dark age

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed thats what they want also

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Marie le Pen is a friend of Putin too

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can be dangerous for europe

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...very scaring

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like opening a portal to a raging  WW2 and releasing the demons into opur time

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): our

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Hitler Stalin ect

[13:45] CONNIE Eichel is online.

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i wonder if LHC can close that portal, probably not unfortunatley

[13:45] herman Bergson: around 1850 we started the construction of the democratic parliamentary system we have today....

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and zap the demons back to their era where they belong

[13:46] herman Bergson: but ahen you look around.....you almost get the impression that we have come to the end of this process and lost  it

[13:46] oola Neruda: nods

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly yes

[13:46] oola Neruda: indeed

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): evil is once again taking over

[13:47] oola Neruda: greed

[13:47] herman Bergson: One of the problems is that people lack an ideology....

[13:47] herman Bergson: a social ideology....

[13:47] herman Bergson: could be their religion, their social ideals

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:48] herman Bergson: we now only are consumers and the national religion is Economy and the road to heaven is economic growth

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MORE MORE MORE

[13:48] theo Velde is offline.

[13:48] oola Neruda: if only they would listen in church.... the basics for human compassion are supposed to be there..... but....?????

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well due to the war prices of most have shot up like crazy for ex aluminium is now more then TWICE the price it was before!

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes oola....

[13:49] herman Bergson: But maybe there is another source of hope....

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i noticed that when ordering material for our workshop yesterday

[13:49] herman Bergson: Earth strikes back....

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hm indeed we can only hope for that

[13:50] herman Bergson: the environment, the climate.....

[13:50] oola Neruda: and why does earth strike back.... it has been misused

[13:50] herman Bergson: the natural resources

[13:50] herman Bergson: the water

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true

[13:50] oola Neruda: but money is more important

[13:50] herman Bergson: the endless pollution....

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): virusses

[13:50] herman Bergson: not to forget indeed Beertje

[13:50] oola Neruda: right

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed everything for money, just look at Bolsonaro, and he is also cheering the massacre in Ukraine

[13:51] herman Bergson: Take for instance chicken flue....

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wile plowing the Amazonas down

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, that becomes a great issue

[13:51] herman Bergson: it emerged in the chicken farms.....

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa

[13:52] Laz Dresler is online.

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that one yes

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a very dangerous virus that could kill even humans

[13:52] herman Bergson: from there it contaminated and infected wild birds like geese and ducks....

[13:52] herman Bergson: and now it is out of control....

[13:52] herman Bergson: In that sense Earth strikes back...

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:53] oola Neruda: there is a bird virus going around now... and we are advised to remove our bird feeders

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but nothing compares with Covid, all these things have one thing in common and that is we should not poke around in nature and grab wind animals here and there we shall let them be

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it compares with covid Bejiita, it's even worse

[13:54] oola Neruda: or wear our masks.... having just returned from a visit to the South.... masks are a sign of being stupid.... we looked stupid to them

[13:54] herman Bergson: But we do Bejiitam, because economy is our religion and economic growth our road to heaven

[13:54] oola Neruda: yes

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Covid was 100% caused by these chinese animal markets where they grab animals from way out in strange places and sell on the streets and they have viruses we never have came into contact with, u could say it was natures punishment on us for not letting these animals be

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): poking around where we should not

[13:54] Laz Dresler is offline.

[13:55] Laz Dresler is online.

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what about thos mega farms with millions of chickens?

[13:55] herman Bergson: Well....again a lot of uplifting and joyful thoughts for the weekend....

[13:55] oola Neruda: hmmm

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also a source, also something we should not do

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we can only do so much our little group

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but we can at least try

[13:56] herman Bergson: Yes unfortunately....but our stories and debates are in the blog....and someone else on this globe might read it and think.........

[13:56] oola Neruda: think what?

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): "WHAT A BUNCH OF IDIOTS!?"

[13:56] herman Bergson: Reason enough to hold on and continue

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or hopefully the opposite

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that we are so stupid to have ,illions of chickens on a farm

[13:57] oola Neruda: yes

[13:57] herman Bergson: That I can't predict oola....they may agree or disagree...but then at least they think

[13:57] oola Neruda: it is a start

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well and I still make me guilty of going to KFC now and then

[13:58] herman Bergson: It is....

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we have to think together, as one in the world

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed

[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so true

[13:58] oola Neruda: nods

[13:58] herman Bergson: Thank you all again....:-)

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:58] oola Neruda: ME... vs. the rest of the owrld

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....

[13:58] oola Neruda: or ME and the WORLD

[13:59] herman Bergson: Yes oola....and don't give up...

[13:59] herman Bergson: Neither do I

[13:59] herman Bergson: I leave the world to the grand children....

[13:59] oola Neruda: it feels so heavy and impossible sometimes

[13:59] herman Bergson: joyful kids of 6 and 8....just imagine

[14:00] oola Neruda: IF

[14:00] oola Neruda: our legacy

[14:00] herman Bergson: They'll manage....I am convinced....

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a butterfly in Australia can be the cause of an earthquake in the Us

[[14:01] oola Neruda: smiles.....

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): little things help a lot

[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[14:02] herman Bergson: Just keep in mind....we HAVE a Green Peace, an Amnesty International, a Fair Trade organization and dozes more of these institutes....

[14:02] herman Bergson: We are  not just silent consumers who die of overweight

[14:02] oola Neruda: we also have Fox news and stupidity galore

[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman

[14:03] herman Bergson: and a lot of other news channels oola

[14:03] oola Neruda: fox listeners are free to be indoctrinated by money based info.... and lies

[14:04] oola Neruda: and the education down there is not in great shape

[14:04] herman Bergson: A lot what is happenign in the US in a positive sense is caused by journalists, newsmedia that reveal criminal activities of politicians

[14:04] oola Neruda: yes...

[14:04] herman Bergson: Democracy still stands in the US

[14:04] oola Neruda: but I know people who listen only to fox

[14:05] oola Neruda: ONLY

[14:05] herman Bergson: The big Loser lost again

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like the trumpists

[14:05] oola Neruda: he ain't done yet

[14:05] herman Bergson: The shock will come oola...

[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least Mr Ts social media platform seems not to gain any moment luckily

[14:05] oola Neruda: pardon my "aint"

[14:05] oola Neruda: but it fits the mentality

[14:05] herman Bergson: When T will go to his tailor for an orange jump suit

[14:06] oola Neruda: can't wait

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[14:06] oola Neruda: looking df

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the gigant baby strikes again!

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[14:06] oola Neruda: forward to it

[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hhe

[14:06] herman Bergson: So...let's smile at the future :-)

[14:07] herman Bergson: Thank you again :-))