744: What has happened to social democratic thought...?

The period 1920 - 1929 was a booming time. Mass production and assembly line production created work and wealth.

   

However, according to Marx's theory, capitalism would be destroyed by its own contradictions. 

   

The First World War and the subsequent famine, unemployment and running inflation formed, according to countless people, proof of that theory. 

   

But it soon became clear that communism did not arise on the ruins, but fascism. 

      

Maybe it is the same process, but after the financial crisis of 2008 we have seen the rise of nationalist, right-wing parties in Europe.

  

We also see a collapse of social democratic parties and a move towards conservatism, where the US is the present  textbook example.

   

Some Marxists were in those days so disillusioned about it that they lost their faith in theory. 

     

Others held on to it despite everything. There were also people who chose a third way. 

    

They wanted to remain faithful to Marxism, but saw that the theory needed to be adapted to remain credible. 

   

This group gathered in the "Institut für Sozialforschung"  (Institute for Social Research) in Frankfurt in the late 1920s 

   

and became known as the Frankfurter Schule (School). Because of the rise of Nazism, the institute was short-lived, but the name remained.

   

The great names of the Frankfurter Schule were Theodor Adorno (1903 -1969), Max Horkheimer (1895 - 1973), Herbert Marcuse (1898 - 1979) and Jürgen Habermas (1929 - ).

   

When I was a student in the early 70's those were big names for us. You HAD to read their books. And of course I have Marcuse's "One dimensional man"  here on my desk.

    

But what happened to social democratic ideals? In stead of a collapsing capitalism, communism collapsed. Pretty ironic, I'd say.

    

When you look at the socialist party in the Netherlands, its history is dramatic. In 1977 it had 53 seats in parliament 

    

In 2012 it was reduced to 38 and in the latest elections they only got 9 seats! Just nine!

    

You begin to wonder, what is going on in the world, at least in Europe and the US.

    

Why have we lost our motivation to support the less fortunate in our society? Why don't we want to organize healthcare for everyone?

     

What did we inherit in this context from the 20th century? In the US a full grown fear for terms like communism and socialism.

     

In Europe, at least in the 60's and 70's, social solidarity was a leading principle in politics. Today you are on your own in a neo-liberal way and depending on self-reliance.

    

Why don't I see references to Adorno, Horkheimer or Marcuse anymore in political debates?

    

Time to have a closer look at their view on society......and maybe save some of our inheritance.

     

Thank you for your attention again :-)

      

The Discussion

     

[13:13] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:14] herman Bergson: So, where have all social democratic values gone?

[13:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe the internet has a great influence on it?

[13:15] herman Bergson: In what way, Beertje?

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don't know is strange

[13:15] CB Axel: If you ask Americans if they like "Obama Care" most will say yes. If you ask if they want social security, they say yes. But if you ask them if they're socialist, they'll say no, of course not.

[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): everybody has a meaning

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a different one

[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well something have happened for sure and in the wrong direction

[13:16] herman Bergson: Americans are kind of allergic to words like socialism....it seems :-)

[13:16] CB Axel nods

[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why?

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is true

[13:16] CB Axel: They equate socialism with communism.

[13:16] CB Axel: And communists are evil. °͜°

[13:16] herman Bergson: I have no idea, Beertje

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): believe that communism is socialism yes

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that comes from the 20's too

[13:16] herman Bergson: pretty silly :-)

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): communism party was active back in the early 2oth century in usa

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nothing much but active

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): into the 40's

[13:17] herman Bergson: Ahh...and then you got McCarthy...

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): then Joseph McCarthy!!!!!!

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a monster if there was one

[13:17] herman Bergson: Total disaster

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): destroyed lives

[13:18] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): especially celebrities

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ow

[13:18] CB Axel: It's always seemed to me that communism is the Soviet Union failed because the people in charge got greedy.

[13:18] herman Bergson: But look at the NETHERLANDS....

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and you know that one of his assistants is active in the trump administrataion today???

[13:18] CB Axel: It was like in Animal Farm: All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

[13:19] herman Bergson: Yes CB

[13:19] herman Bergson: But I wonder why the Soviet Union collapsed.....

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thinks there were many reasons

[13:19] CB Axel: I'm not sure. I don't know much about economics, really.

[13:20] herman Bergson: The fall of the Berlin wall was actually due to miscommunication, if I am correct

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Pope John Paul out of Poland

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and what would he say of the Poland of today

[13:21] herman Bergson: But the fact is...Marx was wrong....communism collapsed...not capitalism

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:21] CB Axel: It's my feeling that communism collapsed for the same reason capitalism seems to be collapsing. People are greedy bastards and don't care about anyone but themselves.

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes capitalism still rules strong

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): too strong

[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: (o there is a nice "pre Mauerfall film right now which explains the atmosphere pretty good - title: Baloon)

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well look at Amazon

[13:21] herman Bergson: Yet I am very interested in the ideas of the Frankfurter Schule.....

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they re building a new base in NY and getting loads of tax breaks

[13:22] CB Axel: Doesn't capitalism rely on people producing a product that people want to buy? Now it seems that the people doing well don't do anything but move other people's money around.

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they should never get

[13:22] CB Axel: The bankers and the Wall Street types.

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): capitalism is alive and strong

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too strong i think

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:22] herman Bergson: there are two worlds...

[13:23] CB Axel: Captialists are too strong, not capitalism. °͜°

[13:23] herman Bergson: on the one hand you have the real economy where value is produced....

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and now some are beginning here to understand the last BIG tax break was for them

[13:23] herman Bergson: and on the other hand you have the financial market where money is pushed around to make money with money

[13:23] CB Axel: Right, Herman.

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I use to say, before banks were for us, today we are for the banks

[13:24] CB Axel nods

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to suck out

[13:25] CB Axel: But big companies like Amazon, although they do produce a product, are not much better than the financial people.

[13:25] herman Bergson: What do you mean with 'tax break' Gemma?

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we have looked at so many different 20th century warnings it looks like we have not really learned a lot

[13:25] herman Bergson: Trumps tax reduction?

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): trump passed it yes

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): break it was called

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all for the middle class

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:25] herman Bergson: ok

[13:25] CB Axel: Yes. Trumps tax break went to people who don't need a break.

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): exactly

[13:26] herman Bergson: But it increases the national debts immensely

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very very true

[13:26] herman Bergson: so eventually you gonna pay for it

[13:26] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.

[13:26] Ciska Riverstone: the problem is that value and money are no longer connected on the financial markets

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and then the democrats will HAVE tp raise taxes to adjust it and will get blame

[13:26] CB Axel: Don't worry, Herman. The government will fix that by taking more money from the people who work at real jobs and need the tax break.

[13:26] herman Bergson: what do you mean by that Ciska?

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:27] CB Axel: True, Ciska.

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Macron spoke well of the ills of our country here

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): last week

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: If you have a corporation which acts wolrdwide -this one will either overpay or underpay serices  - depending on where they need a deficit or a profit to be not taxed

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): without mentioning it

[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: its an easy book-keeper trick

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: sometimes you only have bills without the exchange of goods

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: just to make the figures right

[13:28] herman Bergson: I see

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: and that is almost untraceable

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: you just run enough "daughter companies"

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: who pretend to offer the good for cheaper or for more

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: and play the figures how you want to have them

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its basically money laundering

[13:29] herman Bergson: The Netherlands is famous for such PO Box offices

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: the big corporations push money around where they need it

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: for example

[13:29] herman Bergson: Indeed

[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: to get fundings from the Netherlands

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: for a special scientific project

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: which then fails

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: and basically is done in the usa

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: to make a deficit there

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: which brings down the taxes there

[13:30] Ciska Riverstone: in an European country they however get paid for the same projet

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: pretending they do the research there

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: stuff like that

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: there are many "declarations" like that

[13:31] CB Axel nods

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: same thing with value of buildings

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: as long as you do not go on the market with them

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: they might overvalued

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: or undervalued

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: but they still make a big part of your books

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: which determine if you pay tax or not

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: and if you are a big corporation

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: you just push it back and forth

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: if you need a higher value

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: and right now the market is good

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: you announce to maybe sell it

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: get offers

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: and push that into your balance

[13:32] herman Bergson: That is why Trump does want to have his tax papers public

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i just wonder when or if this attitude all over the world will swing in the opposite direction

[13:32] CB Axel: Exactly

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: yes of course

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or if it will come to war

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: because value and money is totally unconnected any longer

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: same thing when you work somewhere

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats by al means true

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the new House of Reps will be investigating manyu many things about trump

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): one good thing

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: no one can tell you what your performance is really worth

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and may be ask for tax records

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: my prognose is

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: that at the end of the day.. .latest in 100 years

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: we start to realize that math is a relational thing ... and that figures while being useful to describe reality

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: are not really working in describing value  for humans in general

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bergies sends regards... has another event

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: there is  second factor

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): rezz day for friend

[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: and we need to get that one in

[13:35] herman Bergson: Interesting point of view Ciska

[13:36] herman Bergson: Has been mentioned here several times by me.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: the mystical relation between reality and math.....the wondering why it works

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: well it can be used to describe object reality

[13:37] herman Bergson: Our reality is quantifiable....

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: but not subject reality

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): math = language of the nature

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: and not subject-object reality

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): basically

[13:37] herman Bergson: indeed...

[13:37] CB Axel: "Reality, what a concept." - Robin Williams

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for ex we see fractals in things like leafs and seashells

[13:37] Ciska Riverstone: the difference between a subject and an object is

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: an object  - as far as we know - has no experience

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: we try to give it one

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: computers

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: artificial intelligence

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: but we do not succeed so far.

[13:38] herman Bergson: artificial intelligence is so limited

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its because of this fact that math is the language of nature that computers are able to describe things like images sound ect

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: becaue experience is missing yes

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause everything can be made into numbers

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): feelings are missing

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: Bejiita - math just describes relational stuff between objects

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm well thats true

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: thats thrilling

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: because we can do a lot with it

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: like forming objects in different ways

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: but it cannot describe experience.

[13:40] herman Bergson: But it doesnt apply to hamen beings

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but u cant represent feelings with numbers, its chemistry

[13:40] herman Bergson: We are not quantifiable.....or only in a crude way by statuistics

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the difference i think,

[13:40] CB Axel: I'm going to have to think about experience and what that means.

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: well u can reduce us to our object status- thats whats happening a lot these days

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: but thats not all humans are.

[13:41] CB Axel: I felt like an object at my job. So I know what you mean.

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed often we are reduced to human = some number = a cost

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sadly

[13:41] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita

[13:41] herman Bergson: and that brings us back to the core question of today....

[13:42] herman Bergson: where are all those social democratic values gone to?

[13:42] CB Axel: $

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: the reaction to the reduction to objects is  fear, destructiveness and agression.

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): down the black hole of cash i guess

[13:42] herman Bergson: Why is neoliberalism and self-reliance so dominant these day?

[13:43] CB Axel: Because we can't count on others to help us out.

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: well from my point of view partly due to emancipation

[13:43] herman Bergson: extreme individualism?

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: (feminism)

[13:43] CB Axel: Although, the people affected by the fires in California are learning that there are people who will help them.

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: yes cb - in truth we do react socially when things get worse

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: hats why after a war people do no longer ask which party you are on

[13:44] herman Bergson: We really need to look into what Adorno, Horkheimer and Marcuse had to tell us......

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: its cynical but thats the sad truth

[13:44] CB Axel: Having women being able to take care of themselves without relying on a man who may dump them at any time without warning ruined socialism?

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: not ruind CB

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: it broke the male hierarchy

[13:45] CB Axel: Yay!

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:45] CB Axel: Down with the male hierarchy!!

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: heheh I agree

[13:45] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: it was nescessary

[13:45] herman Bergson: Ladies...ladies...please :-)))

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: still its difficult

[13:45] CB Axel: I couldn't agree more.

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heheheh

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)

[13:45] herman Bergson: My goodness...a revolution in class even!

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: it plays a role in whats happening now

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: heheheh

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: noo

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nto the first time

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed that is true, why should we dominate

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: nothing new here

[13:46] CB Axel: I'm sorry, Herman, but men have to learn how to deal with women who don't need them any more.

[13:46] CB Axel: You seem like you're able to handle it, though.

[13:46] herman Bergson: We can ignore them CB :-)

[13:46] CB Axel: You, too, Bejiita. °͜°

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: well lots of men are happy

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: they are just more silent

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): just hope this does not swing too far the other way

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: then the ones who are unhappy about this

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: but basically.... my argument is different there...

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: its about values too

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it should be equal

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: emancipation was successful because even if not all women "get " the scholars

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: women did share a reality

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): payments for a job are still not equal Bejiita

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: where they experienced

[13:47] CB Axel: There is a song from the first Mary Poppins movie called Sister Suffragettes with the the line, "Although we adore men individually, we agree that as a group they're rather stupid." It sums up my feelings exactly. :D

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: that social service is devalued

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we saw many strong women expressed in the women philosophers project

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes there are a lot of those

[13:48] herman Bergson: True GEmma :-))

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: but the broad success of feminism is really based on experience

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:49] CB Axel: A zombie keeps trying to get in. I guess he smelled brains here. LOL

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: and on the devaluation of  all things social

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: eheheh

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he is in

[13:49] herman Bergson: Indeed CB :-)

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): on top of me

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:50] herman Bergson: Well...dinner time :-)

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: hehehe

[13:50] CB Axel: Feminism devalued social issues?

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: bon appetite

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed brains working hard in here

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: no cb

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but now also indeed time to get something much

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: feminism gave devaluated women a way out

[13:50] CB Axel: Ah, I see.

[13:50] CB Axel: we're still devalued by some.

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: so they could leave the devaluation behind

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then continue with my windows app  project

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:50] herman Bergson: I don't think feminism took down social democratic ideals

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and some more

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: but now we can skip it

[13:51] CB Axel: Like Trump and his kind.

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): next week

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: at least on a personal level  ;)

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): reminder

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Thursday is USA holiday

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Thanksgiving

[13:51] CB Axel: Yeah. Time to go. See you all Thursday. °͜°

[13:51] herman Bergson: Well...guess I better dismiss class before we attract more zombies

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok yes

[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: take care everyone

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:51] CB Axel: Not this Thursday.

[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heh

[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu thursday then

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): has no name or ava visible

[13:51] CB Axel: Thanksgiving is on the 22nd.

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but is here

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten allemaal

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): weird

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then we will all smell like chicken so no detectable brain smell how hard we might think

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten Beertje ㋡

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or turkey it is

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but taste almost the same

[13:52] CB Axel: Welterusten, ya'll.

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:52] Wisdomseeker (lissena) is online.

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye for now

[13:52] CB Axel: See you Thursday

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: cu tooo ㋡

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: laters

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten herman ㋡

[13:53] herman Bergson: very weird...there is a zombie present ...I see it on the radar, but no physical appearance here

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: o

[13:54] herman Bergson: oh....it left

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thats one of these hiding scripts

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: I know those ;)

[13:54] herman Bergson: ahh

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: I think I have one somewhere

[13:54] herman Bergson: interesting

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: well...

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: you know folks in here

743: Our escape from Paternalism.....

A few weeks ago there was this message in the news: "For the first time, a majority of the Dutch population does not belong to a religious group.

   

In 2017, less than half (49 percent) of the population aged 15 or older indicated that they belonged to a religious group. 

   

A year earlier that was half and in 2012 more than half (54 percent) belonged to a religious group." - end message -

   

This again can only be the legacy of the 20th century. There we have to look for the causes.

   

Philosophically it relates to the question: how do we explain and understand the world we live in? Many people answer today: it is explained by science.

  

For centuries the default answer has been, that we can explain everything in terms of God's will and how he deals with his creation.

    

However, time ago the Christian leaders started to panic, both in Catholic and Protestant regions. During the eighteenth and nineteenth century 

   

they used frantic efforts to throw a dam against all that scientific curiosity. But it did not help, because the ghost was out of the bottle. 

  

The war between religion and science actually ended in 1859, with the publication of Darwin's "On the Origin of Species." 

   

Not only did Darwin demonstrate the descent of the species, which was entirely contrary to the Christian creation story, 

  

but he came with astonishing insights, the implications of which were so dangerous and far-reaching that they only slowly trickled down: there could be design without a designer.

  

The first quarter of the 20th century brought an avalanche of new scientific insights, theories and discoveries and technological inventions.

   

In the 1920s printed media were still the main source of information, although radio became increasingly popular.

  

An infantry sergeant, DeWittt Walace (1889 - 1981)  spent during World War One four months in a French hospital recovering from his injuries, passing the time by reading American magazines.

  

He found the articles far too long and long-winded. That could be shorter, was his conclusion. People are too busy to read all those long articles.

  

Thence in February 5,1922 the first issue of "Reader's Digest" was published. Reader's Digest soon became one of the most widely circulated periodicals in the world.

Each issue of the magazine contained, as the cover of the first issue says: "Thirty-one articles each month from leading magazines * each article of enduring value an interest in condensed and compact form"   

  

It was in those years that the word "middlebrow" was coined. A middlebrow is a person who is capable of or enjoys only a moderate degree of intellectual effort.

  

Due to the introduction of compulsory education in the period 1850 -1900 in many countries literacy had increased considerably.

   

The elite, the ruling class, began to worry about the increase of what it regarded as semi-intellectualism. A well known paternalistic attitude.

  

You can see it in the early developments of radio, a terrific means to spread information and educational stuff.

  

David Sarnoff from RCA in the US wanted a public system, which would also have the purpose of developing the public.

   

But as CB remarked last Tuesday in the discussion: " The religion of the US: Capitalism.". 

  

In other words, radio in the US was dominated by business and advertisements.

   

The fear for a "wrongly" informed radio audience in the UK resulted in the BBC, controlled by the state 

   

and in the Netherlands too emerged a system in which every group could defend its own religious or humanistic convictions.

    

Just wonder, what is left of this paternalism (of religion), when you look at radio and TV today and in particular at the Internet and what we did with our inheritance.

     

Thank you for your attention again...

The Discussion

[13:40] herman Bergson: If you have any remarks or questions...feel free...

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman

[13:40] Arabian Knight (arabianknight01): I do have a contribution Sir!

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): huge changes

[13:41] herman Bergson: The main issue here is that the world changed from an educated elite to a broadly educated population

[13:41] herman Bergson: Go ahead Arabian :-)

[13:42] Arabian Knight (arabianknight01): It is wrong to assume that Darwin was the first proposer of the theory of evolutioniental scholar of the East were way ahead of him in exploring this!

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is true

[13:42] Arabian Knight (arabianknight01): The oriental scholars of the East*

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we did discuss that at one time

[13:42] herman Bergson: Oh yes quite possible

[13:42] Arabian Knight (arabianknight01): I have a document here at hand that touches on this topic.

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but for the western world

[13:42] Arabian Knight (arabianknight01): http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/uoc/PDF-FILES/(11) Dr. Sultan Shah_86_2.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0VgvVzRhmPUSJ6gR0yiYcf0pWuJyNfonYHXCF5WsVeZ1SXoItgqKhc2jU

[13:43] herman Bergson: always interesting

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): darwin came along at the right time

[13:43] herman Bergson: But I didn't say he was the first with his theory

[13:43] Arabian Knight (arabianknight01): Yes, for the West, it was Darwin that took it upon him to spread the idea to the masses and gave it scientific terminology!

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bookmarked to look at later for sure

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes I'll check it out too Gemma

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:44] herman Bergson: interesting...

[13:44] CB Axel: In the US, those in power are trying to under educate the people by watering down science education with religion and changing views of our history by only showing what puts white men in a good light.

[13:44] herman Bergson: But that is the same with logic....

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i find it interesting that nowadays here they have changed the meaning of elite

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the US

[13:44] herman Bergson: was invented long before Aristotle came up with it

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): elite used to be the rich and porweful

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now had morphed into an insulting name for the educated

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): democrats

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ll

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:45] herman Bergson: In europe the elite were the highly educated...who were becuse of that often rich too

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:46] herman Bergson: But what I find the major change and step forward is the availability of knowledge and information today

[13:47] CB Axel: Yes, but, imo, the point is that the rich and powerful are trying to make the people stupid and uneducated again.

[13:47] herman Bergson: And that eventually the US created Sesame Street :-))

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: how cb?

[13:48] CB Axel: By ruining our educational system and giving us garbage on TV and radio.

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sort of true cb

[13:48] CB Axel: Not to mention garbage "newspapers" and magazines.

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: ah ok - we have the economy running the news ys

[13:48] CB Axel: Liberals made Sesame Street. °͜°

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: thats hell

[13:48] herman Bergson: and garbage websites

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: should not be the case anywhere

[13:48] CB Axel nods

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: but just the same with science

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: so.. basically u need a devision between that and economy somehow again

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is so difficult to meld it all into sense

[13:49] herman Bergson: That is an important point indeed Ciska

[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: information system cannot depend on  economic intrest

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:50] herman Bergson: So what did we do with our heritage from the 20th century regarding radio and TV?

[13:51] CB Axel: Eat the rich?

[13:51] herman Bergson: Did we made good use of it or...?

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): recognize it for what it is

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think the BBC uses the tv very well

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i love  listening to bbc at night

[13:51] CB Axel: There is good radio and TV out there. We just have to convince people that they should look for it.

[13:52] herman Bergson: It is known for it indeed Beertje

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: yes true beertje - arte is  still doing good too

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and have grown to love npr here

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes I often watch Arte

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): arte?

[13:52] CB Axel: NPR is the only radio I listen to.

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure how to get tat

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: arte is an European station gemma

[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes an art station in Europe

[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: tv

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe on line?

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: they do lots of documentaries arts and such

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shall look for it

[13:53] CB Axel: Me, too.

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: https://www.arte.tv/de/

[13:53] herman Bergson: Wel...it is like it always is....we invent something and we do good things with it....and bad things....

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: https://www.arte.tv/en/ (english version)

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): found it thanks

[13:54] herman Bergson: We just have to decide whether the good or the bad things prevail

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thats inevitable as it seems yes herman - whenever it becomes a power game things go bonkers

[13:54] herman Bergson: Very good, Ciska!

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):I have to run off to do my job now

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): next week see you

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma:)

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] herman Bergson: Happy Fishing, Gemma :-)

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye then Gemma

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:55] CB Axel: Bye, Gemma.

[13:55] herman Bergson: Well, maybe a good moment to end our discussion and give you time to think everything over :-)

[13:56] Arabian Knight (arabianknight01): Professor Noam Chomsky is great at explaining how power is being abused by the governments of the world in their attempt for greater control over  populations and resources.

[13:56] herman Bergson: Unless...there is that final question....

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu around

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:56] CB Axel: Chomsky is a genius. Unfortunately, not enough people listen to him.

[13:56] herman Bergson: Indeed Arabian...

[13:57] CB Axel: See ya, Bejiita. Have a fun weekend!

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you too

[13:57] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:57] Arabian Knight (arabianknight01): Well, it is always great to know there are people like you who actually pay attention to worth scholars.

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bejiita

[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time

[13:57] herman Bergson: Yes CB...but he doesnt fit into the present landscape....too polarized

[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: take care bejiita

[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: oops off he goes

[13:57] CB Axel: Ah, but he's polarized in the right direction. LOL

[13:57] CB Axel: IMHO

[13:57] herman Bergson: I agree...

[13:58] herman Bergson: The way  people in the US deal with what they call "liberal" ideas is really ....well to be frankly...ridiculous....

[13:58] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman

[13:59] herman Bergson: Ideas that are as common as water in Europe....some americans are horrified by them....

[13:59] CB Axel nods

[13:59] herman Bergson: public education....general healthcare...name  it

[13:59] Arabian Knight (arabianknight01): Guys, it has been a pleasure being here. Thanks for giving me the chance to listen and contribute. I shall now disappear into the wilderness!

[13:59] Ciska Riverstone: have a great time arabian ㋡

[13:59] CB Axel: It was nice to meet you, sir knight.

[13:59] herman Bergson: Take care of your horse Arabian...it needs you :-)

[13:59] Arabian Knight (arabianknight01): Thank you all, take care.

[14:00] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[14:00] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[14:00] herman Bergson: thank you all :-))

742; What is on the Radio.......?

We take it all for granted these days: radio, television, computers, internet and we know that these media play an important role in our life.

   

The media are a terrific way to spread ideas, information, music and entertainment, but what we easily forget is how new this way of communication is.

   

It is the legacy of the 20th century and in the 40.000 years before that century this communication process was only based on verbal, written or pictorial sources.

   

Nowadays electronic media, in particular television, but also radio, are generally considered to be more influential than the writing press. 

   

That was different in the 1920s. The principles of the radio were known since 1873, when the Scot James Clerk Maxwell and the German Heinrich Hertz did their first experiments. 

   

The first radio broadcast was provided by Pittsburgh in 1906 by Reginald Fessenden. It was on Christmas Eve and the broadcast was received by ships at sea.

  

Of course everyone saw the potential of radio with respect to news programs and educational programs.

  

And then it is interesting to see how this medium develops in different countries.

    

After World War One, the medium was so developed that it seemed to be able to conquer the United States - as the ideal medium to unite the vast country. 

   

The director of the Radio Corporation of America (RCA), David Sarnoff, argued for a broadcasting system that would not only fill the pockets of the owners. 

  

In fact, he wanted a public system that, in addition to providing entertainment, would also have the purpose of developing the public.

   

Unfortunately, America's only business was business. The 'radio boom' assumed such a volume that 1105 radio stations already existed in 1924. 

  

Most were tiny and over half did not make it, with the result that the radio was dominated by advertisements and the interests of the advertisers from the start.

   

The development of the radio broadcasting in Great Britain shows a real fear of the bad influence the radio could have on the provision of information and taste. 

  

The 'establishment' therefore considered central regulation to be of the utmost importance. 'Chaos in the ether' had to be prevented at all cost. 

  

To start with, a few large companies got licenses for experimental broadcasts. Shortly afterwards, in 1922, manufacturers of radio sets formed a syndicate, the British Broadcasting Company.

   

The company was financed by the Post Office, which received a small amount of radio listener money from everyone who bought a radio. 

   

No advertisements should be broadcast, because this would be 'vulgar and intrusive'.

  

Four years later, the syndicate was transformed into the British Broadcasting Corporation, the BBC, a public institution that was free from political interference under a Royal Charter. 

   

A very special radio broadcasting system developed in the Netherlands. A first broadcast was November 6, 1919.

   

In contrast to countries such as the United States, where many commercial broadcasters arose at an early stage, 

  

and countries such as the United Kingdom, where state radio came into being, 

  

a system with independent broadcasters emerged in the Netherlands, which shared the channels. 

  

Soon there were two channels. On one, the catholic KRO and reformed NCRV, on the other, the "general/humanistic" AVRO and the socialist VARA. 

   

The broadcasting time of the liberal Protestant VPRO was divided between both channels. Advertisements were not allowed.

   

It is interesting to see how the philosophies and political views on how to organize a society can be understood per country, based on how radio developed.

  

We could ask ourselves, what has become of these philosophies and political views in relation to the media.

   

Thank you for your attention again....

 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
Peter Watson: A Terrible Beauty (2000)

The Discussion

  

[13:15] herman Bergson: The floor is yours...^_^

[13:15] Ciska Riverstone: thank you Herman

[13:16] CB Axel: So, one of the channels in the Netherlands is run by religious institutions?

[13:16] herman Bergson: What struck me was, that the developments so clearly mirror its society...

[13:17] herman Bergson: Let me get to that in a minute CB...

[13:17] herman Bergson: The US is totally commercial...business as usual...

[13:17] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman

[13:17] CB Axel: Yes. The religion of the US: Capitalism.

[13:18] herman Bergson: The UK is a class society....the ere is a distance between the Upper class and the rest and they decided about the state radio

[13:18] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): A note: the Canadian Broadcasting Company was formed in 1936 in 2 languages. It is a Crown Corporation subsidized by the Canadian government and has no commercials on the radio.tho it does on TV.

[13:18] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands all religious groups organized themselves in societies....

[13:19] druth Vlodovic: the concept of a "right way of doing things" not dependent on what people like, but what they should like, if they were sophisticated

[13:19] herman Bergson: Kind of British way, it seems Aph...

[13:19] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes- intent on promoting "Canadianness"

[13:19] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): like our National Film Board

[13:20] bergfrau Apfelbaum: to much Spam is still vulgar and intrusive, .. in the postbox, mailbox, SL, and so ...

[13:20] druth Vlodovic: there was an episode of "Yes Minister" called "patron of the arts" on this attitude   :-P

[13:20] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It is a nationalistic institution

[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes...in the UK and in the Netherlands this "educational" dogma was the leading priciple

[13:20] CB Axel: I should watch that again. I loved "Yes, Minister."

[13:20] druth Vlodovic: serving the needs of society, rather than that of broadcasters

[13:20] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Canadian programming for Canadains

[13:21] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): there are still rules about what percentage of the content must be Canadian

[13:21] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands all religious groups wanted to bring their message....

[13:21] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): were there many?

[13:22] herman Bergson: five...

[13:22] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): that's enough to keep the radio humming!

[13:22] herman Bergson: catholic, reformed, liberal protestant, and humanistic

[13:22] druth Vlodovic: if they all shared a radio station they can't have been that much at odds

[13:22] Aph (aphrodite.macbain) ponders humanistic

[13:23] herman Bergson: The did share studios....

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so radio was more or less created for propaganda, like a trojan horde

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): horse

[13:23] druth Vlodovic: I actually like humanism being referred to as a religion, since it is an ideology

[13:23] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): (I rather like horse)

[13:23] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): horde

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not for good use but to manipulate people

[13:23] herman Bergson: It was not that bad Bejiita :-)

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i was not around when radio was born so

[13:24] druth Vlodovic: unfortunately people have gotten better at propaganda since then

[13:24] druth Vlodovic: or so it seems

[13:24] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Can we help that? Almost any message can manipulate

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:25] herman Bergson: Well   we have to keep history in mind....

[13:25] herman Bergson: In the early days the big question was....

[13:25] herman Bergson: Now we can reach a lot of people by radio, wherever they are in the country....WHAT should that radio message to the people....

[13:26] herman Bergson: The US choose for business....advertisements....

[13:26] herman Bergson: and I talk about 1926 or so...

[13:26] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): before ww2

[13:26] herman Bergson: the UK choose for an upper class culturally elevating appraoch...

[13:26] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): the feeling of nationalism was high then

[13:27] herman Bergson: and the Dutch were split up along religious/ideological lines......and we find a compromise...

[13:27] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods - compromise was the best solution

[13:28] herman Bergson: every group his own broadcastings...equally shared or depending on the number of members of your broadcasting society

[13:28] herman Bergson: Now it is interesting to see what changed after WW2

[13:28] druth Vlodovic: it was also an age of ideologies, fascism, socialism, communism, do you think mass media had a hand in making this come about, or did it just ride on top of it?

[13:29] herman Bergson: For instance....Dutch radio and TV have commercials now

[13:29] Gina (georgina.acker): that didn't come easy

[13:30] herman Bergson: In the early 20 radio was booming, but the written media were definitely still more influentual till WW2

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i suppose every country have almost now

[13:30] Aph (aphrodite.macbain) thinks about the way radio broadcasts were used to undermine the enemy of give the British fighters hope

[13:30] herman Bergson: To mention one....Reader's Digest...

[13:30] herman Bergson: In WW 1 all parties used radio for propaganda

[13:31] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods

[13:31] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): a fair amount of 'fake news' was distributed from all sides

[13:31] CB Axel: Radio waves don't respect national frontiers. They can spread propaganda very easily. °͜°

[13:32] herman Bergson: But as you see.... the rise of radio tells us a lot about political views of countries

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: like the www , cb?

[13:32] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods   especially if they were subsidized by the government

[13:32] druth Vlodovic: how did Germany organize theirs?

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: we got a regional system after ww2

[13:32] herman Bergson: After WW2 we had Radio Free Europe....mainly directed at the countries behind the Iron Curtain

[13:33] herman Bergson: Also interesting is to think about the question how Internet changes the position of radio and TV in the media landscape

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa that is true

[13:34] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): The internet seems chaotic

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: yes - communication in free fall

[13:34] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): more rules in radio and tv

[13:34] herman Bergson: It is all too much to discuss this here now...but I give you just a few thoughts to think about, look into it

[13:34] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): listens

[13:35] herman Bergson: I gave you a few thoughts , I meant Aph ^_^

[13:35] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): ah thanks :)

[13:36] herman Bergson: The main point is the philosophical stand of WONDERING about why things are as they are...

[13:36] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods

[13:36] herman Bergson: Like I wonder about what we inherited from the 20th century regarding radio

[13:37] druth Vlodovic: I wonder if mass media lent itself to the mass disillusionment of the 20th century or if that was already coming

[13:37] herman Bergson: For instance....I don't yet know how they managed to divide the broadcasting time in the Netherlands along religious and ideological lines....

[13:37] druth Vlodovic: if you look at surviving mediaeval literature a lot of it seems very cynical

[13:38] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I learned about classical music listening to the radio -- it wasn't available to me otherwise...

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: I bet the fact - checking in medieval times was pretty difficult

[13:39] herman Bergson: As you see...this subject creates a lot of questions

[13:39] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): lol Ciska

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[13:39] herman Bergson: That is why the Middle Ages were so full of superstition, and witches for instance, Ciska

[13:39] Gina (georgina.acker): we have choice stress now

[13:40] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): :)

[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: we do gina - we do

[13:40] herman Bergson: I can imagine Gina :-)

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:40] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It implies we must know more in order to make these choices usefully

[13:40] herman Bergson: So, I think it is the right moment to find some relaxation....:-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Unless you want to add some more choices or questions :-)

[13:41] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): how do you mean?

[13:41] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): the right moment

[13:42] herman Bergson: I mean...to prevent getting to much stressed by to many choices now, it is a good moment to end our discussion and safe Gina :-)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well this was some interesting thought for sure

[13:42] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): ah

[13:42] CB Axel: It is interesting how different countries handled that new medium.

[13:42] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It would be interesting to discuss Marshall McLuhan sometime- he talks about all this

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: communication for sure alters the world somehow.. and any medium that adds up to that... seems to create change...

[13:42] herman Bergson: So, let me thank you for your good participation ...

[13:42] CB Axel: It's still happening. Like how some countries block the internet.

[13:43] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.

[13:43] herman Bergson: Ahh  interesting idea Aph....we might get to him indeed

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)

[13:43] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): great!

[13:43] herman Bergson: I'll make a note of it!

[13:43] Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Thank you!

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman - thanx everyone

[13:43] druth Vlodovic: protect people vs deal with the consequences vs let them deal with their own consequences

[13:43] druth Vlodovic: thanks Herman

[13:43] herman Bergson: Thank you all again....:-)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:44] Gina (georgina.acker): thank you Herman

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cu next time then