Monday, January 30, 2023

1043: Lucretius...

It is really amazing, how a materialist ontology upsets people. For some inexplicable reason it provokes aggression and animosity. Ok, I know it is because of its approach to religion.
   
But explain to me why religious ideas are good and opposite ideas are bad. Take Epikuros for instance. Regarding his idea about the goal of life, he says nothing else but what every organism on this planet does: avoid pain, seek pleasure.
    
And what do opponents with this basic biological conclusion about behavior of almost all organisms on this planet? They inflate this observation and claim that Epikuros sees the extreme pursuit of lust and pleasure as the highest good. In other words, do your best to describe the person you disagree with as badly as possible.
    
Nowadays we call it polarization. Current politics in the US are a good example: decent politicians are depicted as marxists, socialists, communists, pedophiles, baby murderers, blood thirsty satanists. You name it, we've got it.
   
We think that this is a bad aberration of our time. Forget it. It is of all times. Epikuros was described as a despicable, immoral voluptuary, who propagated immoral behavior and the pursuit of all lusts.
   
Yet the materialism of Epikuros lived on for centuries and found a brilliant spokesman and poet in Lucretius, who lived from 99 to 55 BCE. That is about a 200 years after Epikuros! It means that the writings of Epikuros may still have been around in those days.
   
What Lucretius has made immortal is his poem "De Rerum Natura" - "On the Nature of Things". He, however, is , like Epikuros, honoured by the existence of outrageous attacks from his opponents.
    
One of his fiercest opponents was Saint Jerome (347 - 420), a Christian priest, confessor, theologian, and historian. He is best known for his translation of the Bible into Latin, the translation that became known as the Vulgate, and his commentaries on the whole Bible.
 
Make a note: that is more than 300 years after Lucretius. That means, materialism was still around in those days probably.
 
And here it becomes interesting if you look at the years. It may have been the case that this Jerome knew about "De Rerum Natura". Maybe he even had read it. But then it disappeared from the public domain for more than a thousand years.
    
Maybe you remember that we talked about the Renaissance and its interest in the Ancient texts in our project "A World full of Patterns". Then I told you that people started to dig for old manuscripts in the libraries of the old monasteries. And one man, Poggio Bracciolini, discovered in an obscure German monastery in 1417 a copy of "De Rerum Natura".
    
The holy man, Saint Jerome, got upset by Lucretius. That Lucretius was indeed an enemy of the 'holy' is undeniable. In his poem, his hostility to religion is evident.
 
Throughout it he mocks supernatural explanations and endeavors to find naturalistic accounts of many naturally occurring phenomena. He rejects religious accounts both of the origins of the universe and of inherent mind or purpose in nature.
    
In "De Rerum Natura" he describes the atomic theory of Epikuros, in which the universe is conceived as consisting of atoms and the void. He identifies the soul as composed of atoms and describes its dissolution on the death of the body.
    
He talks about epistemological issues, the origin of the world and the dawn of civilization and finally he discusses various natural phenomena, including lightning, volcanoes, earthquakes and magnets.
   
Lucretius was a devoted admirer of Epicurus and therefore despised by the catholic church. Let me finish this lecture with Lucretius' own words, in which he describes Epikuros.
      
When human life lay foul for all to see
upon the earth, crushed by the burden of religion,
religion which from heaven’s firmament
displayed its face, its ghastly countenance,
    
lowering above mankind, the first who dared
raise mortal eyes against it, first to take
his stand against it, WAS A MAN OF GREECE.
   
He was not cowed by fables of the gods
or thunderbolts or heaven’s threatening roar,
but they the more spurred on his ardent soul
   
Yearning to be the first to break apart
The bolts of nature’s gates and throw them open.
   
Thank you for your attention....
 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)


TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  


  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965



The Discussion      



[13:16] Jane Fossett: :-)
[[13:17] Al Michigan: but...
[13:17] herman Bergson: And from then on....1417 materialism was back on the stage....
[13:18] Jane Fossett: John Travolta was... "A MAN OF GREASE"
[13:18] herman Bergson: We find it  in the ideas of Leibniz with his monads for instance
[13:18] Al Michigan: Life was hard, God promised relief, noGod no relief, no counterbalance for suffering
[13:18] herman Bergson smiles at Jane
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:19] Al Michigan: what is a monad?
[13:19] herman Bergson: like an atom
[13:19] Dings (dings.digital): Lucretius claims the opposite: relief without gods
[13:19] herman Bergson: He does indeed
[13:19] Al Michigan: I guess he was not worried about what would be on the tafel, in the evening to eat.....
[13:20] Al Michigan: tafel = table
[13:20] herman Bergson: What got me was the observation that from Epikuros till Lucretius the materialist world view persisted through time.
[13:21] Al Michigan: But if over half off your kids had died, and youwife as well, being left with 3 kids you started toi love,.... and then not have food,.....
[13:21] herman Bergson: And that is was surpressed by the catholic church for a thousand years
[13:21] Dings (dings.digital): that was a fate very well known in antiquity
[13:22] Al Michigan: Yes but see...
[13:22] Jane Fossett: Science and Math are the continuation
[13:22] herman Bergson: You mean of the materialist worldview, Jane?
[13:22] Dings (dings.digital): Maybe Lucretius would have had more in common with Jesus than with Jerome
[13:23] herman Bergson: This view was picked up in the Renaissance indeed
[13:23] Jane Fossett: yes; Religion was the antithesis\
[13:23] Al Michigan: like 500 years ago, ppl build churches with immensely thick walls so generation after generation, they would speak about the promise off God,: if you work hard, over time, the it would welcome better, ... and thatwas true! So no Gods,  i guees our children would still , mostly die  as aninfant.
[13:23] herman Bergson: What makes me wonder is how religions often try to block and obstruct the development and growth of knowledge
[13:24] Jane Fossett: and vote Republican :-)
[13:24] Al Michigan: inmyhumble opnion, science is there because off the church.
[13:24] Jane Fossett: I disagree with that view
[13:25] herman Bergson: of course....
[13:25] Al Michigan: and I do not see what republicans have to do with it.
[13:25] herman Bergson: Let me give you another example.....
[13:25] Jane Fossett: (nothing to do with it :-) )
[13:25] herman Bergson: till about 1100 the Arabs ware the masters in mathematics and astronomy
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): science is here because we want facts, organisations like NASA CERN and Fermilab would have popped up still even without the church
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause we want to know
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how things truly work
[13:26] herman Bergson: With the advent of Islam from 700 on all science3s was killed and surpressed....
[13:26] Jane Fossett: fewer people would be burned at the stake
[13:26] herman Bergson: after this moment in history the arabs didn't achieve anything significant in scienc3 anymore
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and now it happens again in say afghanistan, back to stoneage esp for women
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): really sad :(
[13:27] herman Bergson: Here again a religion obstructs the growth of knowledge
[13:27] Al Michigan: yeah, adolf hitler was so  religious, hew killed 6  million jews. right?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): evil won+
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): despite all efforts
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:27] herman Bergson: Like the catholic church tried to stifle Galileo and Kepler
[13:27] Al Michigan: but islamis different!
[13:28] Jane Fossett: Islam is different?
[13:28] Al Michigan: the islam says:
[13:28] herman Bergson: I disagree...you see the same historical process there are with other religions
[13:28] herman Bergson: Like Hinduism killed all materialism
[13:29] herman Bergson: An interesting battle though human history between belief and knowledge
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): problem with islam is all extremists, terrorists/sucide bombers
[13:29] Jane Fossett: yes that's it
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but the base islam has none of that as i get it
[13:29] Dings (dings.digital): Yeah, what happened to the church after 300 or so? suddenly strange dogmatics ruled, very different from what early christians believed
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its the extremists who destroy it
[13:29] Jane Fossett: Belief vs Knowledge
[13:30] Al Michigan: yeah islam sees the fulfillment off live not in productivity, but in becoming a good human being, that tries to honor God, so beautifully, that other gods, or..(?) would say to themselves: who-o-o-wlook what a wonderfull creations these creation is: Look how grateful he is to his Creator.
[13:30] herman Bergson: It shows how homo sapiens still is a simple minded individual that rather lives with clear answers and certainty than questions
[13:30] Dings (dings.digital): and with politics :)
[13:30] Jane Fossett: We don't know what the original christians knew
[13:30] Dings (dings.digital): they certainly did not believe what jerome and augustinus were saying
[13:31] herman Bergson: The problem is when a religion gets adopted by the ruling class
[13:31] Jane Fossett: nop idea
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes then we have real problems, like in iran since 1979 and mybee even before this
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and even in US
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): IN GOD WE TRUST!
[13:31] Jane Fossett: Constantine was the REAL FATHER OF CHRISTIANITY
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): politics + religion dont mix
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a disaster
[13:32] herman Bergson: When a religion becomes a state religion hell breaks loose for people with other convictions
[13:32] Jane Fossett: (sorry caps)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or politics + religion = oppression
[13:32] Al Michigan: yeah like with fascism!
[13:32] Al Michigan: or like the Antifa
[13:32] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a
[13:32] Dings (dings.digital): exactly. religion and morality are to subtle for politics
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a
[13:32] herman Bergson: repression is the consequence....
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly DIngs
[13:32] herman Bergson: Like it also was when communism became the state religion in eastern europe
[13:33] Al Michigan: yeah
[13:33] Jane Fossett: Antifa has little to do with this
[13:33] Al Michigan: it acts like the violent arm off the democrates, like the SA acted for hitlerin the pre 1934 area
[13:33] herman Bergson: crap, Al...
[13:34] Al Michigan: that has antifa to do with it.
[13:34] herman Bergson: real BS what you say....
[13:34] Al Michigan: hihihi
[13:34] Al Michigan: wish you was right mr Bergson
[13:34] Jane Fossett: I think that's an off-point issue
[13:35] herman Bergson: You better come with clear evidence for your statements first, Al....facts....your homework for next week
[13:35] herman Bergson: It is Jane
[13:35] Al Michigan: no problem,hihihi
[13:35] herman Bergson: Deal, Al
[13:35] Al Michigan: :-)
[13:35] Al Michigan: yeah it is a deal
[13:36] herman Bergson: What we have seen so far is the development of materialism through the ages tillthe Renaissance...
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I have no good insights in antifa, i mostly remember wheh i was a kid i saw a lot of tags around my area "Antifa smash facism"
[13:36] herman Bergson: it is a constant opposition of people against religious ideas and fairytales regarding reality....beginning 500 BCE in India
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): spraued here and there
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but not seeing these since 20 years maybee
[13:37] herman Bergson: and it always stayed in the philosophical siscourse through Democrites, epikuros, Lucratius
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): facism is bad so are they good or bad gous?
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): guys
[13:38] Jane Fossett: Isn't the development of logic and fact a product of the Enlightenment?
[13:38] herman Bergson: We'' see what the future will bring now that De rerum Natura has become public domain again :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: Eventually yes...
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:39] Jane Fossett: a late result of the Renaissance?
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:39] Dings (dings.digital): there was logic in western and indian antiquity, too
[13:39] herman Bergson: It already started in the Renaissance
[13:39] Jane Fossett: yes agree
[13:40] herman Bergson: But during the enlightment materials was mentione d explicitely again
[13:40] herman Bergson: and the grip of the church on science  weakend
[13:40] herman Bergson: But we'll get to that in coming lectures
[13:41] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:41] Rebecca (rebecca.rozen) is offline.
[13:41] herman Bergson: So, thank you allagain for your participation :_0
[13:41] Dings (dings.digital): thank you
[13:41] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank yiou Herman
[13:41] Jane Fossett: Thanks!
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:41] herman Bergson: I wish you all a pleasant weekend and nice weather :-)
[13:42] Dings (dings.digital): real ,material nice weather :)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:42] herman Bergson: Indeed Dings :-)
[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class
[13:42] Al Michigan: yeah it was a great lecture
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice as usual
[13:42] herman Bergson: I miss oola, btw...
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more interesting stuff
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): shes not here
[13:43] herman Bergson: no...
 
 

   

   

   

Thursday, January 26, 2023

1042: Epikuros....

 The bitter and groundless ad hominem (against the person and not the issue) attacks on the great materialist thinkers  is a recurrent theme. We can't nor won't deny it, that atheism is a logical consequence of materialism.  
   
So, now and then it inevitably will be part of our discourse here and with reason. As the principal theoretical challenge to theistic doctrine and religious practice, materialist are seen not only as philosophical opponents but as ethically degenerate is various ways.
   
If attacks by enemies are the measure of a materialist philosopher's significance, Epikuros ( 341 - 270 BCE) is very important indeed. He is said to have written 300 books, but all that is left are some maxims and three letters on the philosophy of nature and morality.
   
 Diogenes LaĆ«rtius, who lived around the first half of the 3rd century in Anatolia and wrote "Vitae Philosophorum" ,generally reports philosophical teachings without attempting to reinterpret or expand on them, which means his accounts are often closer to the primary sources.
       
Due to the loss of so many of the primary sources on which Diogenes relied, his work has become the foremost surviving source on the history of Greek philosophy.The letters and one set of maxims can be found in his book "Vitae Philosophorum" .
   
He begins the account on Epikuros after some biographical details with a list of authors who have bitterly attacked Epikuros and accused him of all kinds of base behavior.
 
The reason for these bitter attacks was, that Epikuros argued that the goal of life was the pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain. From a biological point of view the most obvious observation.
   
But Epikuros met the same fate as the adherents of Carvakas materialism. Their conceptions of the purpose of existence were exaggerated to make it seem immoral, of course according to the views of the religiouslsssy motivated critics.
   
He was an atomist like Demokritos, but not an atheist. The people in India were explicitly criticizing the dominant religion. Epikuros had another interpretation of the soul and gods.
   
According to him. like everything else, the soul consists of atoms, differing from other atoms only in being smaller and subtler. These atoms are dispersed at death and the soul ceases to perceive. Maybe Epikuros saw the mind and the soul as one and the same thing.
   
The gods too are built of atoms, but they live in a less turbulent region, immune for dissolution. They live happy lives, untroubled by concern for human beings.
   
For that reason belief in providence is superstition and religious rituals a waste of time. The gods neither impose necessity nor interfere with our choices.
 
So, the gods live their happy lives and are not al all interested in the lives of humans. And here we go again, of course... The religious find his conception of the gods as material entities
   
and the idea of their being indifferent to mankind  and completely uninvolved in the world of humans, utterly unacceptable. To have them written out of the story makes the assertion of their existence, in the eyes of the religious, utterly hollow.
 
Epikuros thought that religion was responsible for the fear of death that troubles so many people. In particular the threat of hell, or the wrath of god or gods displeased with man's efforts in life, makes men tremble.
 
As with the teachings of Carvakas/Lokayata, Epikuros believed the senses could be reliable as sources of information, but as Demokritos recognized, false judgements may arise from observations. Reason must play its part in the process of gaining knowledge from perception
   
The pattern is clear: from India to the Roman Empire at least some people had come to the conclusion that all there is, is what they experience with their senses, something you can, see, feel, taste, smell or hear.
   
Furthermore using common sense is a big help to organize these experiences which lead to the conclusion that we live in a material world. That's it.
   
On the other hand there is this fear in homo sapiens of not knowing, having no answer to what he experiences. That goes two ways, on the one hand he makes up all kinds of stories
 
that reduce the fear of the unknown and on the other hand he hates people who say that those stories are based on nothing. History shows that those who believe in the stories have always been the dominant group. Let's see how this dominance develops...
    
Thank you for your attention again...
 

 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)


TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  


  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965



The Discussion      



[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thankyou Herman'
[13:18] herman Bergson: I find epikuros really funny regarding his ideas about the gods
[13:19] herman Bergson: They are there but not at all interested in us :-))
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): just "living "their lives elsewhere
[13:19] herman Bergson: yes...
[13:20] herman Bergson: I really don't understand his reasoning....
[13:20] herman Bergson: no place to go....
[13:20] herman Bergson: for on the other hand...for him there is no afterlife for the soul
[13:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the reasoning is human, the only living creature that has fantasy
[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes....maybe he thought like this....
[13:22] herman Bergson: I haven't seen a single result or effect of any ritual or prayer...
[13:22] herman Bergson: but people like and believe in gods....so let them have them as they are...uninterested...
[13:23] herman Bergson: and thus I am politically correct :-)
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and cursing at the welding machine cause i did get stuck all time helped nada also
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it was just me to tired for proper control
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im sluggish
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not the machines fault, its just a power supply
[13:24] herman Bergson: Ahh Bejiita...that are atavistic behaviors related to our inclination to animism
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:24] herman Bergson: Ascribe life to lifeless things
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i just got a bit mad cause i wanted FLOW, then TIG welding is like meditation
[13:24] herman Bergson: We do it all the time
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like the manufacturer of the machine i use, KEMPPI states in their slogan "The joy of welding"
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well when all works its a joy
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for sure
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:26] herman Bergson: ANyway...the scene of materialist thinking has been set by the Old Indian people and continued till the Roman era....
[13:26] herman Bergson: It never gained popularity
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:27] herman Bergson: Maybe next time :-))
[13:27] herman Bergson: So let's get ready for Thursday :-)
[13:27] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....

Tuesday, January 24, 2023

1041: Demokritos

When you look at Carvaka / Lokayata materialism and you recall the verse I quoted in the previous lecture, it made me think about cultural differences. Let me repeat that verse first:
 
"Nothing else is the offerings to the forefathers than a source of gain for the Brahmin priests. They who devised the three Vedas. They are hypocrites, rogues, buffoons. . . "  -end-
 
You get the impression, that the denial of the Otherworld, which automatically leads to a materialist point of view, and suppression of free thought by a Bhramanin priest caste, was one of the main causes behind this materialism.
 
There are striking similarities between Carvakas and ancient Greek philosophy. One is the belief that everything was made of four elements, air, water, fire and earth. The second is that the only thing that exists is matter.
   
Yet there is a huge difference. An ancient Greek materialist philosopher we know, is Demokritos (c. 460 - 370 BCE). There is one resemblance with the Indian situation.
   
Little of his work has survived through history just like all Lokayata works have disappeared.What we know is mainly from quotations by other philosophers. Aristotle was an admirer of Demokritos philosophy, so he quotes him.
   
Furthermore we see, that the writings of Aristotle and also his teacher Plato have been preserved in large amounts. Guess why.... Simply because the growing catholic church in the first 500 years BC liked Plato and Aristotle. Thence, their works were diligently copied and copied and distributed.
   
But what struck me was, that I realized that although this Indian materialism may certainly have been a kind of revolt against the dominating religion, this is not the case with the philosophy of Demokritos.
    
I get the feeling that his attitude was primarily a 'scientific' attitude, a real interest to analyze and explain reality.
   
This approach of reality, what we now would call 'physics' has always remained the leading principle in Western thought despite of a religion that has tried to suppress this attitude for centuries and yet materialism has never disappeared.
   
According to Demokritos, the universe at its fundamental level consisted of indivisible atoms in constant motion in an infinite void. The word atom is derived from the Greek word 'atomos', which means individsible.
   
Material objects are temporary compositions of these atoms. They arise when the atoms come together and are destroyed when they scatter under the influence of natural forces, while the atoms themselves are eternal and indestructible.
 
Atoms, while they could be shared geometrically, only matter containing spaces, literally parts of the void between the atoms, can be shared physically.
 
An atom itself cannot be physically divided because it is wholly solid, the void is completely excluded, and thus an atom is not divisible.
 
Let's play a bit with a mind-boggling problem, which the Greeks also realized as a consequence of this atomism. Nice to think about on the weekend. The atoms are in constant motion according to Demokritos.
   
They need empty space for that. But what if you remove all those atoms from that space? It is clear that those atoms exist. They have expansiveness, but absolutely empty space? Can it exist? What IS if there is nothing?
   
Another consequence of this materialism is that all motion is caused, so everything is cause and effect.
 
This introduces the problem of determinism and, further down the horizon, the problem of free will, but I'll get to that later. These are just some initial ideas to think about.
   
Thank you for your attention again....

 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)


TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  


  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965



The Discussion       

     
[13:18] Al Michigan: but how did he  know?
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well you CAN spit atoms. With a particle accelerator
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or radioactive decay333
[13:18] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita, but that is what we know now
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however then the element will turn into something else so an atom is still the smallest part of any element
[13:19] Al Michigan: how did he ever came up with this idea off atoms, moving and all
[13:19] Jane Fossett: And now most think 'empty' space is full of emerging particles
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed they did not have LHC or nuclear reactors back then
[13:19] herman Bergson: I love the ontological problem of empty space :-)
[13:19] Jane Fossett: haha\
[13:19] Al Michigan: what you mean with that mr bergson?
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who would remove all the atoms??????
[13:20] herman Bergson: But Leibniz and later einstein defined it away....
[13:20] herman Bergson: empty space is the relation between objects....it is ontologically not a "thing"
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what is interesting is that the practice of alchemy was however not too far off but they just did not know how to pull it off. with these machines we have today we however CAN turn lead into gold just not in very large quentities. its called transmutation
[13:20] Al Michigan: but why is it then a problem?
[13:21] herman Bergson: What problem do you mean Al?
[13:21] Jane Fossett: the Greeks had a antikythera particle accelerator mechanism
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats not a particle accelerator however it IS as i get it a VERY early computer
[13:22] Al Michigan: I love the ontological problem of empty space :-) ... i do notunderstandthis
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i would say so
[13:22] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:22] herman Bergson: Ok...let me explain.....
[13:22] herman Bergson: as a materialist you say that you know what exists.....
[13:22] herman Bergson: matter...
[13:23] Al Michigan: ok
[13:23] herman Bergson: that is...things that take space
[13:23] Al Michigan: ah...
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:23] herman Bergson: they are expanded....
[13:23] herman Bergson: but these expanded objects have to be somewhere.....
[13:23] Al Michigan: in that definition , empty space has no matter, so how can it exist?
[13:24] herman Bergson: As Demokritos already realized..they need room to move around....
[13:24] Jane Fossett: if I diet and lose 10 pund am I still fat?
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they fill my entire home. computers 3d printers, junk ect, my mom says it looks like a factory at my place!
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:24] herman Bergson: But this room to move around in....does that exist....???
[13:24] Al Michigan: yeah!
[13:24] Al Michigan: indeed
[13:25] Al Michigan: i understand now
[13:25] Al Michigan: it isno matter
[13:25] herman Bergson: it is the same question as....Where does the universe exist?
[13:25] Al Michigan: so it does not excist,...yet...
[13:25] herman Bergson: In what space?
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:25] herman Bergson: It is what JAne said....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its riding on the back of a turtle!
[13:25] herman Bergson: and what Parmenides said....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): classic
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:26] herman Bergson: There is no empty space....
[13:26] herman Bergson: that is why they search for this dark matter in the universe
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well they have to find why galaxies don't fall apart as they spin
[13:26] herman Bergson: but in fact....our way of thinking isn't capable of answering this question....
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that was the start of dark matter theory
[13:27] herman Bergson: we are primates living in a closed world of space and time and causality....
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but both CERN and NASA are getting skeptical. dark matter is like a place holder to get the math correct
[13:27] Jane Fossett: without time there is no causality
[13:27] herman Bergson: and that arent the tools to deal with such weird problems
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but it eats everything near it
[13:28] Al Michigan: but only if it exists...
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it might be something completely different at play that will need to take the place of the darkmatter placeholder
[13:28] Jane Fossett: math is what unites it all
[13:28] herman Bergson: oh sorry...Jane...forgot to mention time :-)
[13:28] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:28] Al Michigan: it is i  thingk just as with the big bang, that no  seems to have never happened  in the first place!!
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): LHC have not seen it. no other accelerator say for ex RHIC neither and no space telescope
[13:29] herman Bergson: That statement isn't a big bang to me Al :-)))
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i still ask who would be the entity that does away with all teh atoms
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have been able to detect dark matter (it would manifest itself as matter missing in a particle detector since it cant be directly beasured but no missing mass have been seen so far)
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and leaves nothing
[13:29] herman Bergson: Ahh...In a vaccuum, Gemma
[13:29] Al Michigan: indeed, mr bergson, it was in all the papers!!!
[13:30] herman Bergson: there is an empty space...but ontologically....IS there SOMETHING
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): radiation
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats not matter
[13:30] herman Bergson: there is....emptyness ...we have a word for it
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and vacuum = nothing
[13:30] Jane Fossett: yes, there is no 'empty' space
[13:31] herman Bergson: If you take into account all those particles that come from the sun and fly through us all day....
[13:31] Jane Fossett: the void is frothing with particles in-and-out of being
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well there are atoms of gas ect scattered around but distance between is very far so space is almost at least an absolute vacuum mostly
[13:32] Al Michigan: but,... if everything is energy, atoms are we formally energy, since at 0 degrees Kelvin everything falls apart,.. meaning that empty space actually does not excist, unless it is 0 dgree Kelvin,and thatis no  where, so there is no  empty space,if you look at this from this point off few,because the  moment you can meassure kelvin temperature, there is mass.
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with stars planets and meteorites here and there
[13:32] herman Bergson: That remains a  question Bejiita....the DISTANCE between atoms....what do we find there????
[13:32] herman Bergson: emptyness?
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how much matter density there is
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or whatever
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): james webb could measure it or ISS
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if they have a such instrument
[13:33] herman Bergson: Well...I can't answer all this questions and solve all these problems....
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that measure would only be just where they are located
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): measure
[13:33] Jane Fossett: and for nearly all matter there is antimatter?
[13:33] herman Bergson: but it is good to see that it is not all simply black and white, also not when you assume materialism is the right ontology
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i wish i had paid better attention to Physics when i studied it
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but antimatter don't exist other then in accelerators, man made, entire universe is made of matter otherwise we would see massive anhillation explosions in space
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats what LHCb is trying to find out why matter prevails
[13:34] herman Bergson: I wish I had paid better attention to maths Gemma :-)
[13:34] Al Michigan: yeah, causality is no  causation, it do not see it proven dark matter even exists
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause there should in theory have been equal amounts at big bang
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus NOTHING should really exist after big bang but matter won
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus we exist and the universe
[13:35] Al Michigan: but there was no big bang!
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well or whatever started it all
[13:35] Jane Fossett: yes it does look like matter won :-)
[13:35] herman Bergson: There is a cartoon on the wall
[13:35] herman Bergson: to my left...
[13:35] herman Bergson: one is about nothingness.....
[13:36] herman Bergson: but then...REAL nothingness :-))
[13:36] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: So..I guess you have enough to think of now :-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: Unless you have still a question...?
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh no
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): too many already
[13:37] herman Bergson: Good :-))
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:37] herman Bergson: Thank you all again......
[13:37] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[1[13:37] Al Michigan: why do ppl think there has to be empty space between objects or particles?
[13:37] Jane Fossett: enough to consider.  Thank you!
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): again really nice
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good weekend all
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa happy weekend
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:38] herman Bergson: if there wasn't, Al the world would be one big solid rock in space
[13:38] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki and now?
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡



 

1040: Cavakas / Lokayata......

 The history of India is amazing. Its philosophy originated a thousand years earlier that the philosophy of the ancient Greeks, but intellectually it was of the same level. Homo sapiens is mature.
   
What is so amazing is, that due to the invention of script and writing cultures posses books. With that I mean, thoughts and ideas no longer are transferred orally from generation to generation.
   
The thoughts, the stories, as we may say the mythology is committed to paper and in India this played a major role. The period of 1500 to 500 BCE is called the Vedas era, named after the sacred books with that name.
   
By this is meant not one book, but an entire literature, produced in very different times and by many unknown authors, but the recording of which mainly falls within the period mentioned.
 
However, they contain mythical and religious ideas that are much older. "Veda" means "knowing," that is, religious, theological knowing,
 
which in the most ancient times may be equated with the sum total of all knowledge found fit for recording. The size of the Veda is six times that of the Bible.
    
The situation in India is very interesting, not just historically but also in the light of its present situation and this dominant reign of Hinduism, for that goes back more than 3000 years.
   
By the way, it never may have occurred to you - not to me anyway - but this morning I heard in the news that the moment is imminent, that India will overtake China as the most populated country om earth.
   
Back to history. Imagine a culture that is dominated and controlled for almost a thousand years by a religion and  its priests, there comes a moment some say enough is enough.
 
And that moment came around 600 BCE, with the rise of Cārvākas, also called Lokayata. Whether the name Cārvākas comes from the eponymous founder of this movement, or has a different origin, is uncertain.
   
Under this name is summed up a school of thinkers who attack not only Brahmanical religion, Hinduism, but religion as such, and who espouse a marked materialism,
 
that is, who start from the view that matter is the only thing that exists and that the spiritual activities can be reduced to material ones.
 
They scoff at religion and priests and reject as metaphysical nonsense any philosophical or religious speculation that goes beyond the material.
 
We no longer possess the original works of the champions of this Cārvākas doctrine themselves.
   
Their opinions, however, can be clearly known from numerous quotations in other works. Thus from Brhaspati, the most famous representative of this school of thought, the following verse is related:
 
"Nothing else is the offerings to the forefathers than a source of gain for the Brahmin priests. They who devised the three Vedas. They are hypocrites, rogues, buffoons. . . "  -end-
   
The teachings of Atman are mere deceit to him. There is no soul. Only matter exists, in the form of the four elements, earth, water, fire and air. The rejection of metaphysics thus forms a sharp contrast to previous Indian thought.
 
Equally, the ethics of these naysayers also deviate from the prevailing view. Rather, they have no ethics at all, they deny every moral order of the world, and see in the lust of the senses the sole and highest end of man.
   
At least this is what a number of critics of the 12th century usually say, but there is evidence, that Cārvākas, also named Lokoyata, was not just an absolute hedonism.
   
It is striking how modern these ancient thinkers can sound. While the science is primitive, and the logic and philosophy can seem limited, on the basis of the scant evidence to us,
   
nevertheless Cārvākas / Lokayata seems to have embraced the essential of the materialist perspective, which is the ontological theory
   
that presupposes an intuitive concept of space, and the primary claim of materialism is that the only things that exist are those that occupy space.
 
And to this day articles are still being published about this materialism from India.
    
The uncompromising attitude to the creator God/gods, immortality of the soul, rebirth and karmic retribution which is only found in India,
and similar notions are found in the works of many writers. The struggle between reason and faith has been a standing feature in the history of world philosophy.
Thank you for your attention again...

 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)


TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  


  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965



The Discussion                  



[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:23] oola Neruda: excellent
[13:23] herman Bergson: Just imagine....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:24] herman Bergson: more than three thousand years ago some people were fed up with religion as Richard Dawkins is today....nothing has changed in that respect
[13:24] oola Neruda: yet, in India they did have gods... gave them names and roles.... did that happen simultaneously or separately
[13:25] herman Bergson: As far as I know the Hindu gods are all derived from mythological stories, like the Greek gods like Zeus and Athene were in their time
[13:25] herman Bergson: But I have no detailed knowledge of Hinduism....
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well there are a lot of gods for sure
[13:26] herman Bergson: Unless you are a cultural anthropologist I think studying it is a waist of time :-)
[13:26] oola Neruda: so, a symbol rather than a "thing"
[13:27] oola Neruda: .
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what i know is the word avatar comes from the name of their visualisations like for ex shiva with lots of arms, thats her avatar
[13:27] herman Bergson: what do you mean oola?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that have then moved into the VR space including in here
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): other then that im no hinduism expert really
[13:27] oola Neruda: ?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): know a bit here and there but
[13:28] herman Bergson: ah yes...that word avatar....comes from there
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when nu see a statue of shiva u see her avatar
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you
[13:28] herman Bergson: But what we see in this history is that eternal fight between reason and artionality on the one hand and faith and religion on the other hand
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how it works and thus it was the obvious word / term to use for our virtual representations
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same idea but in a more modern way
[13:29] oola Neruda: that the "god" was an explanation rather than something that requires praise and obedience?
[13:29] herman Bergson: We are all gods here :-)
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol well u can say that
[13:30] herman Bergson: If there is a religion there are rules of the religion you have to obey, I guess , oola
[13:30] herman Bergson: What rules Hinuism has...I don't know
[13:31] herman Bergson: Ohh...they may not slaughter those cows
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): HOLY COW!
[13:31] oola Neruda: but is it a religion.... or a convenient means of creating symbols for whatever
[13:31] herman Bergson: right Bejiita ^_^
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i guess THAT is what that expression comes from!
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its origin
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:32] herman Bergson: Hinduisme, oola? I assume it is regarded to be a religion...for it has thousands of gods to pray to
[13:32] oola Neruda: listens
[13:32] herman Bergson: Who knows, Bejiita :-))
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well no other place has holy cows so
[13:33] herman Bergson: check it out in Wikipedia, oola, there is more info about the subject than in my brain :-))
[13:33] oola Neruda: ok
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i remember i first heard it as a kid while watching that old batman and robin series from the 60s where all Robins different expressions are HOLY this and that!
[13:34] herman Bergson: The point here is that a culture is dominated by some religion and that the opposition to it are outspoken materialists....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:35] herman Bergson: The most interesting historical observation is that not a singel book exists written by a Carvakas author...all disappeared in the 12th Century CE
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ow :(
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:36] oola Neruda: what is Carvakas
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the materialist up-risers in India
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): never heard of them either before
[13:36] herman Bergson: Caravakas is the name of the Indian materialist philosophy...also known as Lokayata
[13:37] herman Bergson: I still found numerous articles on the subject written by current scholars, mainly from India
[13:38] herman Bergson: Materialism as an ontology still is a hot issue  today
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have to go, sorry, have a nice evening
[13:38] herman Bergson: Be well Beertje
[13:38] oola Neruda: vw qwll Vwwerjw
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))
[13:38] oola Neruda: be well Geertje
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont) is offline.
[13:39] oola Neruda: oh deatr
[13:39] oola Neruda: kldf;klfj;lkf;ks
[13:39] herman Bergson: you shifted one key to the left oola ^_^
[13:39] oola Neruda: i mean well
[13:40] herman Bergson: Is like on  the cello...you have to position your hand at the exact spot otherwise you are out of tune :-)
[13:40] herman Bergson: Happens :-)
[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: I am sure that Beertje knows who was meant. Oola :-)
[13:40] herman Bergson: Sure...
[13:40] oola Neruda: hope so
[13:41] herman Bergson: No worries about that
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or while programming in which case there will be bugs!
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:41] oola Neruda: It seems to me that there are many other religions in India...
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa they have a few as i get it even if hinduism is their largest
[13:41] herman Bergson: A minority is is islamic
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:41] herman Bergson: they are hated by the Hindi
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the sikhs are islam right?
[13:42] herman Bergson: In 1947 all muslims were chased out of India into what now is Pakistan
[13:42] herman Bergson: I don't know Bejiita
[13:42] oola Neruda: there is a lot of poetry rout there .... i used to know a number of the names of the Gods... .but am drawing a blank right now
[13:43] herman Bergson: Shiva seems to be the big one
[13:43] oola Neruda: Ramish.... might be one
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:44] herman Bergson: For a materialist...all fairytale figures :-)
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that i can make cool statues of in my 3d printer
[13:44] oola Neruda: and cannot recall the name of the woman who believed that she was to be the wife of... one of them... and who danced naked everywhere she went... in his honor
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have some blue transparent filament i think woulddo great on shiva
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): + add some LED lights
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:45] herman Bergson: Ohhh I'd like to know that name too oola ^_^
[13:45] oola Neruda: wrote songs and poems about him
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and viola a cool desktop lamp
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm ok
[13:45] herman Bergson: I only know the word Kamasutra ^_^
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa thats a classic although ud need to be quite acrobatic for many of those
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:46] herman Bergson: But that is another philosophy :-))
[13:46] oola Neruda: smiles....wink
[13:46] herman Bergson: Ok...guess we have answered all question...unless you stillhave one left
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i saw one position and i thought ok i might be able to have sex in that pose for... 5 seconds mayebee
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): crazy classics
[13:47] oola Neruda: wish I could remembe all that I forgot on this front
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki and now
[13:47] oola Neruda: used to know a lot of it
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:47] herman Bergson: It is all in Wikipedia oola....simple
[13:48] oola Neruda: Mirabai?
[13:48] herman Bergson: why stor it in your head while it is there for free? ^_^
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:48] oola Neruda: obviously, the storage is not working
[13:48] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:48] herman Bergson: thank you all again....
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed......