Thursday, May 28, 2020

854: Where did evil begin.....?

As a college professor I told my students about the Stanford Prison Experiment and about the electric shock machine of Milgram.
   
And all this to show how easy it is to turn good people into evil people, to show that evil in man is so close under the surface.
    
In fact I myself believed in the Veneer Theory, the Hobbesian look at life. Civilization is just a thin layer. Underneath we are brute and selfish beings.
   
However, since the archives are opened we have to conclude that the scientists had manipulated the test persons and the data to get the results THEY wanted to get.
    
So, we are actually fooled by people like Zimbardo and Milgram. In the previous lectures we have shown proof, that actually most people are OK.
    
In stead of the Bystander Effect we have seen that most people are willing to help in serious situations.
    
Kitty Genovese was not attacked three times, but two times and it was not true, that she died on the stairs of the apartment building all alone.
    
She died in the arms of her friend and neighbour, who unfortunately couldn't help her anymore, but that info would have ruined the exciting story in the newspaper.
       
Most people are OK and want to help their fellowman. If there is one group that fails in this regard, then it is those at the top:
   
the manipulating scientists, a chief editor, a police commissioner, politicians. Time and again they are caught lying or manipulating data to save their position.
    
To claim that most people are OK doesn't mean that we close our eyes for the evil, that man is capable of.
   
On the contrary, but this evil inflicted by men is not explained by a Milgram or a Veneer Theory.
        
We have seen that evil is often disguised as good. The test persons in the electric shock experiment, for instance, believed that they we HELPING science.
   
They were not drooling sadists that loved to torture their "student", neither are we trigger happy bellicose people despite two World Wars or Vietnam.
   
We have to find a plausible explanation for the evil in us. What we know is, that it hasn't been there since day one.
   
Prehistoric people were nomads, hunter / gatherers, as we have seen. They didn't fight each other.
   
The first archeological finds, that can be interpreted as proof of warfare date back some ten thousand years.
   
It was in the era that man began to settle, started agriculture and "invented" private property.
     
Could it be, that man wasn't prepared for such a way of life, mentally and physically?
     
Evolutionary psychologists sometimes refer to it as an "evolutionary mismatch":
     
Evolutionary psychology considers human cognition, emotion, and behavior to be products of psychological mechanisms that evolved to solve recurrent survival and reproduction challenges in ancestral environments. 
   
Humans, however, have begun living in environments diverging vastly from those in which they evolved. 
  
In evolutionarily novel contexts, key aspects of psychological mechanisms may no longer be linked to the environment in the same way. 
   
Take for instance obesitas. Hunters and gatherers were slim and fit, but now there are more overweight people worldwide than hungry ones.
   
Why do we keep eating all this sugar and fat? Simple, our DNA still assumes that we run through the jungle.
   
In prehistoric times it was smart to stuff yourself, if you happened to find a nice fruit tree or something like that. 
  
Some extra fat for leaner times wasn't a bad thing in those days. It is probably in our DNA, but now we live in a world of abundance and we keep on eating.
   
Natural selection adapts organisms to their past environments and has no ability to foresee the future. 
  
When the environment changes, adaptations to past environments can misfire in the current environment, 
  
producing a mismatch that can only be solved by subsequent evolution or by modifying the current environment. 
   
Suppose the hunter / gatherer nature is still deep in our DNA, could claiming a territory or claiming private property or living in cities be such an evolutionary mismatch?
      
Thank you for your attention again.....   



Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
Rutger Bregman, "De meeste mensen deugen",, 2019


The Discussion

[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:15] herman Bergson: In the coming lectures I'll investigate that question
[13:16] herman Bergson: What I find interesting today is the observation that evolution prepares for the past....can't look into the future...
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (stuffing myself with Daim bites)
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:16] Jack Lust (jacklust): evolution has no end goal or purpose other than to survive
[13:16] herman Bergson: And we are changing our environment  rapidly these days
[13:17] oola Neruda: too rapidly and for the worse
[13:17] herman Bergson: Survival is the goal, I assume, yes
[13:17] oola Neruda: survival of the richest
[13:17] Jack Lust (jacklust): we kind of shot ourselves in the foot by disconnecting from nature
[13:18] herman Bergson: But we aren't evolving as fast as we change our environment, I'd say
[13:18] herman Bergson: Crossed my mind, Jack.....
[13:18] herman Bergson: Shouldn't we have stayed hunter/gatherers :-)
[13:19] herman Bergson: But agriculture produces the food in your backyard.....
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we can't go back in time
[13:19] herman Bergson: and we love to be lazy :-)
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now we are mostly coders staring into Visual studio and munching candy/drinking beer and cola all day
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and yes I guilty to that but I don't do it all day but
[13:20] herman Bergson: We still love sugars Bejiita...like a lot of organisms....
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it tastes good
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats why
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with eating too much salt
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also tasty
[13:21] herman Bergson: Might have prehistoric roots in our DNA
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): chips, dip strips and fast food in general
[13:22] herman Bergson: But the coming theme is that we have to find an explanation of evil in man
[13:22] oola Neruda: people do not understand the land anymore... just the farmers.... and it is going to make things harder as global warming ramps up...there will not be enough water nor understanding of crop rotations etc. to take care of everyone
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): missmanagement
[13:22] CB Axel: We can google all that information, oola. :)
[13:23] Jack Lust (jacklust): territory I understand.  if that space gives you what you need to live, you don't want someone else coming in and depleting your food, for instrance
[13:23] herman Bergson: yes...sure, Jack...
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:23] herman Bergson: The hunter/gatherer shared all his food with the others....
[13:23] Jack Lust (jacklust): and you will go to great lengths to protect that, but I don't know if that would be considered "evil"
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like mom comes and eats all my choco in the cupboard
[13:24] herman Bergson: The farmer however keeps it for himself....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): shared it with others you said, but how many others?
[13:24] CB Axel: I still have trouble believing that hunter/gathers didn't fight over territory.
[13:24] herman Bergson: No, but it is the basis of conflicts....
[13:24] oola Neruda: but we don't...we put money before all else and are destroying what we currently gave,,,,, and a lot of it is not reversible....like draining the Midwestern aquifer..... and a lot of other practices
[13:24] Jack Lust (jacklust): well, keeps what he needs and sells the rest.  capitalism is one of many evils in the wrong hands
[13:25] CB Axel: If there was shortages for any reason, they would have fought for the best places.
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u should nt keep more then u need thats true
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes CB, there certainly may have been conflicts and confrontations in those times, I guess
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how much do we really need Bejiita?
[13:26] herman Bergson: But that is something different from organized warfare
[13:26] Jack Lust (jacklust): and if it was just about food that would be easy to justify.  But we need money in this society, without it, you won't go far
[13:27] oola Neruda: not taking care of the bees..... or the monarchs.... most people do not know why that matters....
[13:27] herman Bergson: Sell the rest.....sure....but what when you haven't the money to buy that rest and starve?
[13:27] Jack Lust (jacklust): money certainly complicates things
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we need as much as to keep stuffed
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not going hungry
[13:28] oola Neruda: you cannot google people into acting responsibly with weed killers and seeds that are genetically created to outdo your neighbor...
[13:29] herman Bergson: If you keep thinking, you might get the feeling that we have organized our society in the wrong way
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (admits to have killed weed and ants with roundup today at our factories spring/summer cleanup)
[13:29] herman Bergson: the money, the private property.......isn't there an alternative?
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but they were under our golf greens at the backside
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was all bumpy
[13:30] oola Neruda: our dept of agriculture busted up the experts they had by  closing the office and if they wanted to keep their jobs they would have to move to arouond kansas city...
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): inddeed the greed problem have to be solved
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in general, not just the food
[13:30] oola Neruda: closing the office
[13:31] herman Bergson: I heard about that....oola
[13:31] oola Neruda: serious mistake
[13:31] herman Bergson: deliberate politics
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:31] oola Neruda: yes
[13:32] herman Bergson: Ok...coming lectures we'll try to explain evil
[13:32] oola Neruda: greed
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): evil = harming others and the planet deliberately
[13:33] herman Bergson: Maybe greed is also such an atavistic trait....
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): short explanation
[13:33] herman Bergson: the urge to gather for leaner times....in our DNA?
[13:34] oola Neruda: hope so
[13:35] herman Bergson: I have a question about that "deliberately", Bejiita....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what
[13:35] herman Bergson: It implies a goal.....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa yes
[13:35] herman Bergson: so the evil isnt in the action itself but in pursuing this goal.....what is your intention with your action
[13:36] herman Bergson: where does the intention come from.....?
[13:36] Jack Lust (jacklust): now you're starting into freewill
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like "kill all jews" or "environment concerns are BS BURN THE AMAZON"
[13:37] CB Axel: They intentionally ruin the environment to make more money for themselves.
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats evil
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least to me
[13:37] theo Velde is offline.
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also taking everything without care for others
[13:37] herman Bergson: But where comes the need from to gather so much money.....
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): pride, status
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): being better then "the rest town there that I piss on"
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): fear I think
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): down
[13:38] herman Bergson: It is a fact...the rich get richer and the rest gets poorer....Pickety....and others
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje.....
[13:38] herman Bergson: one of our most primordiaal emotions
[13:39] herman Bergson: Based in the so called reptilian brain.....the basic part of our brain
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hard to control that emotion
[13:40] CB Axel: But fear of what?
[13:40] herman Bergson: In fact you hear all kinds of answers already with respect of changing our world and behavior
[13:40] herman Bergson: irrational fear, CB
[13:40] herman Bergson: Like fear of spiders, for instance
[13:40] CB Axel: So fear for the sake of being afraid.
[13:41] herman Bergson: but it is a real existential fear
[13:41] CB Axel: Oh! Spiders are evil. Just look at them!
[13:41] Jack Lust (jacklust): fear is used in politics all the time
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): spiders are beautiful cb
[13:41] herman Bergson: Basicly of course fear which helps  you to survive ultimately
[13:41] CB Axel: You sound like my sister, Beertje.
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes fear is a good manipulative tool
[13:42] oola Neruda: at the moment we have a lot to fear from leaders with greed and an agenda that they really do not have scientific understanding of the affects
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): spiders are cute, I like those hairy tarantula ones, thae are cool and colorful
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they
[13:42] CB Axel: My sister has a pet tarantula. :(
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and what is an old attic without spiders and spiderweb
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and some ghosts )
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:44] CONNIE Eichel: pity,i have to run... thanks for all Herman, hugs for all :)
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu then Connie
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:44] herman Bergson: Ok....have a look at the subject "Evolutionary mismatch"....a new theme in science....
[13:44] CONNIE Eichel: see you!
[13:44] herman Bergson: OK Connie...:-_)
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Connie
[13:44] herman Bergson: A good moment to conclude this discussion...:-)
[13:45] herman Bergson whispers: Do your homework and thank you all gain for participating :-)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ....
[13:45] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini):               (`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
[13:45] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini):  ♫ ´·.¸¸.♫   A*P*P*L*A*U*S*E  ♫.¸¸.·`♫
[13:45] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini):               (¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)  
[13:45] .??(`' en>de: (`'
[13:45] .????.???   A*P*P*L*A*U*S*E  ???.????. en>de: ♫ ´
[13:45] '??(??. en>de: (¸.
[13:45] Jack Lust (jacklust): thanks Herman
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:45] oola Neruda: thank you Herman'
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye bejiita
[13:46] herman Bergson: thank you all....good discussion...
[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Thank you Herman and class
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa BTW I recently read about those tonga boys in the local news
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the real lord of the flies case
[13:46] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman and everyone. See you Thursday. :)
[13:46]  Łîly Łŭsŧ (lily11223355): Great class,  all and Herman
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....they are going to make a movie about the boys adventure
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye CB:)
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa ok
[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you Lily
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu soon
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye all
[13:47] herman Bergson: The ultimate refutation of "Lord of Flies"
[13:47]  Łîly Łŭsŧ (lily11223355): Take good care everyone :) adios for now
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Lily
[13:47] Jack Lust (jacklust): take care everyone
[13:47] herman Bergson: You too Lily...

Tuesday, May 26, 2020

853: The Bystander Effect Revisited....

It is February 9, 2016, Amsterdam.  It is a quarter to four in the afternoon. A woman parks her car on the quay next to a canal.
    
In the back sits her toddler. As she gets out of the car it begins to roll towards the canal. She managed to get in the car again but can't stop the car.
  
It falls into the canal. Quite a number of people witness what is happening and in no time four men jump into the icy water 
  
and succeed in getting the woman and her child out of the car, that went under seconds later. The whole rescue hadn't taken more than two minutes.
  
This contradicts the conclusion of Latané and Darley. They concluded, based on experiments with university students, 
   
that when someone believes that he is the only one who hear a cry for help, he will come into action asap,
  
but when there are more people present, who also hear the cry for help, there is a (long) delay in coming into action.
   
When we (subconsciously) believe that it is true, man is selfish and indifferent when it comes to it, you might respond:
  
your story it is an exception, or there is a difference between Dutch and American culture.
   
Recall the "I didn't want to get involved" remark in the Kitty Genovese case. Keep in mind, it was 1964 in the US and the man who said these words, that went viral, was homosexual.
  
He was scared that this would come out, when he got involved. He would lose his job, for homosexuality was then in those days illegal.
   
And this Abe Rosenthal, chief of the New York Times, was a notorious homophobe. He allowed headlines like "Growth of Overt Homosexuality in the City Provokes a Wide Concern".
  
This aside, now back to the question: was the rescue an exception? According to Latané and Darley the answer would be YES.
  
However, the real answer is NO.

Like the Milgram and Zimbardo experiments the Bystander Effect is still in many textbooks with their negative conclusions about man. 
   
But in 2011 a meta-analysis appeared that sheds a completely different light on the behavior of bystanders. 
  
Meta-analyzes are research studies in which multiple studies are analyzed. In this case, not only that first experiment by Latané and Darley was included, 
  
which I referred to in the previous lecture, but the 105 best studies on the bystander effect of the past fifty years. 
  
The scientists drew two conclusions.  ONE: the bystander effect really exists. 
  
Sometimes we think we don't have to do anything in emergencies because others can also take responsibility. 
  
Sometimes we are afraid to do the wrong thing and do nothing for fear of the judgment of others. 
   
And sometimes we think that there is nothing is wrong, because we see others do nothing as well, 
  
but then the SECOND conclusion: if there is a life-threatening situation, for instance someone is drowning or someone is attacked  
  
and if the bystanders can communicate with each other, there is an inverse bystander effect, with a larger number of bystanders leading to more instead of less help.
  
Richard Philpot is a psychologist at the  Department of Psychology of the Lancaster University, in the United Kingdom.
  
He and others  examined in 2019 over 200 sets of real-life surveillance video recordings from the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, and South Africa 
  
to answer "the most pressing question for actual public victims": whether help would be forthcoming at all. 
  
They found that intervention was the norm, and in over 90% of conflicts one or more bystanders intervened to provide help. 
   
Increased bystander presence can increase the likelihood that someone would intervene, even if the chance of each individual bystander responding is reduced.
   
Conclusion: most people are OK....
    
Thank you for your attention again ....
  



Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
Rutger Bregman, "De meeste mensen deugen",, 2019



The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: I can add some more detail
[13:20] CB Axel: I think it might take just one person doing something to encourage others who may have hesitated to jump in and help.
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it seems to happen all the time that people jump in to help
[13:21] herman Bergson: I the NYT the story went that Kitty Genovese was attacked three times and died alone on the stairs...
[13:21] herman Bergson: not true....
[13:21] CB Axel: Fake news?
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there has been a lot of newer evidence that showed that the original story was flawed
[13:21] herman Bergson: she was attacked twice and Sophie Farrar a friend of hers came to help...Kitty died in her arms...
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have read several more accounts about that yes
[13:22] CB Axel: On 11 Sept 2001, people did help others in lower Manhattan.
[13:22] herman Bergson: When the journalist was asked, why he hadn' t mention it his answer was
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg yes
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:22] herman Bergson: It would have ruined the story
[13:22] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini): lol! sounds about right
[13:23] herman Bergson: This drive to see homo sapiens as such a horrible creature....while the facts show the opposite...
[13:23] CB Axel: I would have demanded that reporter be fired. And his editor, if the editor new the real story and printed it anyway.
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): agree
[13:24] CB Axel: *knew
[13:24] herman Bergson: His editor was this Abe Rosenthal and Kitty Genovese was lesbian
[13:24] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini): if that happened, we would have no reporters or editors, which would be nice
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nono
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we need th news more than ever
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and they are getting laid off too quickly
[13:24] herman Bergson: I dont agree Inkaku...
[13:24] CB Axel: Reporters are the only people pointing out corruption.
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at leat here and now
[13:24] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini): accurate news is very rare
[13:24] herman Bergson: I love Chris Cuomo and Rachel Maddow
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i disagree on that inkaku
[13:25] CB Axel: We need a free press to maintain what's left of democracy.
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there is some
[13:25] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini): yes, some but not so much in the main stream
[13:25] herman Bergson: We really do, CB
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): layoff today at the Atlantic
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sad
[13:25] herman Bergson: what do you mean GEmma?
[13:26] Jack Lust (jacklust): unfortunately, many people get "news" from facebook
[13:26] CB Axel: The Atlantic is laying off reporters?
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the atlantic magazine laid off 68
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/reviews/the-atlantic-lays-off-68-employees-or-17percent-of-staff-cuts-pay-for-executives/ar-BB14qa76?OCID=ansmsnnews11
[13:26] CB Axel: Sadly, Jack, I get mine from late night comedians. LOL
[13:26] herman Bergson: The lay of means "to fire people", I assume
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:26] Jack Lust (jacklust): which is more accurate by far Herman
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nto really fire
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but let go
[13:27] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini): except that technically a lay off is not being fired, same result  though, sort of
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so they can collect unemployment
[13:27] herman Bergson: I guess the journalists in case are free-lancers
[13:27] CB Axel: Well, I guess it's good that they cut executive pay, too.
[13:28] herman Bergson: which you don't need to fire but can put them to the garbage
[13:28] CB Axel: I trust Trevor Noah over anything I read on Facebook.
[13:28] herman Bergson: But why this lay off?
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): listening to a free lancer investigative journalist last week on npr   was veyr worried that they are disappearing and need pay to continue doing their work tho
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): money
[13:28] herman Bergson: Love Trevor :-))
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): less people are subscribing to news
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in  magazines
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): onn line
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): newspapers
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): especially local ones
[13:29] CB Axel: I subscribe to the NYT online.
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i get it on line too
[13:30] CB Axel: I get local news from a local TV station online stream.
[13:30] herman Bergson: But we were talking about the Bystander Effect ^_^
[13:30] CB Axel: It comes on right after Jeopardy. :)
[13:30] CB Axel: Right.
[13:30] CB Axel: Sorry.
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes
[13:30] herman Bergson: No problem CB...
[13:30] herman Bergson: The situation is clear....
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thre have been many many examples of that in the near past
[13:31] herman Bergson: We are allowed to conclude that we are not cold,  indifferent and egocentric.....we need each other  and in distress the norm is that we help each other
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): MOst of us
[13:32] herman Bergson: right Gemma....MOST of us are OK
[13:32] herman Bergson: Never said ...we all are OK
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nope
[13:32] herman Bergson: And with respect to being OK.....
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone is online.
[13:33] herman Bergson: what shocked me was a tiny remark of Rachel Maddow.....
[13:33] herman Bergson: She was talking about her country.....this great, PREVIOUSLY respected country.......she said....
[13:34] herman Bergson: that shocked me....
[13:34] herman Bergson: My goodness , I thought
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nt me
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is sad
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe she's right
[13:34] Jack Lust (jacklust): it's not untrue
[13:34] CB Axel: I respect the US less than I used to.
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): t is a shame
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am embarrassed sometimes
[13:35] herman Bergson: No...it isn't untrue at all....
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: to say I am and
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): American
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sad
[13:35] CB Axel: Of course, I was raised learning a white version of history, too.
[13:35] herman Bergson: I think so myself today....
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so embarrassed  another may drop out of this treaty r that
[13:35] CB Axel: I'm not sure the US has ever been all that great.
[13:35] herman Bergson: but to hear it an American say about her own country....
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:35] CB Axel: We're just bigger than most other countries.
[13:36] CB Axel: We're a big bully.
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it certainly has been
[13:36] CB Axel: And now we have a president that personifies that.
[13:36] herman Bergson: Not anymore CB....
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): gave so much aid to many many countries
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that needed it
[13:36] iמʞαʞů (inkaku.capalini): lol...ugh
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Worked with the United Nations so well
[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes GEmma....the US always took the lead.....
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no Marshall plan where would Europe BE????
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still
[13:37] herman Bergson: and in this COVID crisis the US is the biggest victim
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): after so many years
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): blames this administration for being so so slow
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh it will be nothing
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will go away
[13:38] herman Bergson: What is the Bystander Effect here...? :-)
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:38] herman Bergson: All other countries are bystanders and not a single one offers help
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thre are those still fighting the good fight
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh we did get some help
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): from other countries
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not free help
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but got it
[13:39] herman Bergson: Just have a look here... https://www.endcoronavirus.org/countries#action
[13:39] herman Bergson: It shows you the international situation
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): butThose need to take action in themselves
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): look at Brazil
[13:40] herman Bergson: Another idiot at the top
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is a disgrace ...same kind of leader yes
[13:40] CB Axel rolls her eyes at Brazil
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tsk
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cousin of Trump
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think
[13:40] CB Axel: Brothers from another mother? LOL
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:41] herman Bergson: of course :-)
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am begining to think they are all children of Mendel
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): spelling
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): remember the experiments???
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who knows
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not mendal
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wht was his name??
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): during the WW
[13:42] herman Bergson: That German doctor..?
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: in Germany?
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ys!!!
[13:42] herman Bergson: Mendel...
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok ol
[13:42] CB Axel: Mengolas or something like that?
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:42] herman Bergson: It is a sad thing to see, that most people are OK, but some in high places aren't and cause the death of many
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:43] CB Axel: Mengele?
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Mengele
[13:43] herman Bergson: thats the name CB
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Joseph
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there we go
[13:43] herman Bergson: Mengele...yes
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:43] herman Bergson: Mendel was that monk who discovered genetic relations
[13:44] CB Axel: Yes. With pea plants.
[13:44] herman Bergson: Right :-)
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well and Mengele was fooling around with it
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still sees so many with good intentions and actions
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so people are ok
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): mostly
[13:45] roos Gartner is offline.
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma I agree....
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: looks at beetje in dress down
[13:45] herman Bergson whispers: Wondered too who she was mourning
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the wedding maybe
[13:46] herman Bergson: Well folks...cheer up.....
[13:47] herman Bergson: We have proof now that most people are OK in distress situation....so no worries and stay healthy :-)
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): trying
[13:47] herman Bergson: Unless you have that final question......
[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): really need a haircut tho
[13:47] CB Axel: I need a haircut, too. :(
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:47] herman Bergson: Me too :-)))
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you ??
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whistles for their horse.
[13:48] herman Bergson grins
[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I am past boris johnson now
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Herman grows taller than his hair
[13:48] CB Axel: LOL