Wednesday, June 14, 2017

669: Ok...Does Life have a Meaning or not.... ????

“My life has no purpose, no direction, no destination, no sense and yet I'm happy. I do not understand. What am I doing right?”
    
These are the words of the cartoonist, Charles Schulz, creator of Snoopy.
   
Albert Camus (1913 -1960) chooses another approach. Confronted with the meaninglessness of life he asks himself: 
   
why don’t we commit suicide? He points out, however, that there is no more meaning in death than there is in life, 
  
and that it simply evades the problem yet again. Camus concludes that we must instead "entertain" both death and the absurd, while never agreeing to their terms.
  
Meaning is used in these contexts as referring to something outside  or beyond our actual life.
   
In previous lectures we have seen, that neither in the past, not in our  future we can find the meaning of our existence.
  
Almost all those who deny that life seems to be meaningful, actually seem to reject the idea that it has a specific kind of meaning: 
  
a meaning that is determined by forces, goals and principles that are in some way outside of this World.  
     
What is lacking is the recognition that life can be meaningful, if we find it worthwhile to live as such, without the need of other goals or destinations.   
   
Whatever you think of Descartes, he made perfectly clear where human life begins: in the awareness that we EXIST.
   
And we exist in time and history. It means that the question “Has life a meaning?” is totally different from the same question in, say 1890.
   
Social and historical factors play a role. For example, when thinkers such as Nietzsche expressed the idea of the death of God for the first time, 
  
it was against the background of an all-embraced assumption, that the existence of God was needed as the basis for the meaning of life and morality. 
  
After the confrontation with the so-called realization that the universe has no purpose and just is there, feelings of displacement and existential panic did not come unexpectedly. 
  
If you assume that the universe has a purpose, then  a completely undermining of that assumption must create a feeling of fear.
   
I, myself, am repeatedly surprised, however, by such remarks as that realizing that life has no meaning HAS TO BE frightening,
   
can drive people to despair, make you feel lost and unhappy. On the one hand philosophically I have no clue why, 
  
on the other hand from a neurobiological perspective I would suggest it is caused by fear, created by what some people (want to) believe in.
   
My point is, that language can fool us. Every grammatical correct sentence is not by definition a meaningful sentence.
      
This is expressed in the characteristic response of A.J. Ayer on a critical note made during a television debate by Hugh Montefiore, the then bishop of Birmingham.
   
Ayer had said that only people could give meaning to life. When the bishop objected,
  
saying that if this were true, life could not have an ultimate meaning, Ayer replied, "I do not know what ultimate meaning means!"
   
What has meaning are our actions. This means, that we do things with a purpose which lays beyond the action.
   
So the question “Why do you do this?” could be translated into the question “What is the meaning of the existence of your action?”
   
From that point of view you can see that the question “What is the meaning of the existence of earth, or life?” looks meaningful but is not.
  
If you are looking for a meaning of life, then look at your actions and ask yourself why you do what you do.
  
And in addition, if you also are willing to accept the observation that homo sapiens is a social animal, which only can survive by cooperation,
   
then the meaning of life is obvious. The fact, that we put children in this world, implies that we think, life is worth living
   
and we need generations  to continue our actions to make this world a better place for everyone to live.
   
Not the slogan “America first” should be on our banners but “Earth first”. I guess that is enough for finding some meaning of life.
       
This concludes my project and this semester. Time for a good vacation. I wish you all the best for this summertime
  
and love to see you again September 6. Thank you all again for this wonderful time together ….

[ s u m m e r b r e a k   t i l l   S e p t e m b e r    5 ]

The Discussion

[13:19] CB Axel: This has been a good project. Very interesting.
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good one
[13:19] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you :-)
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:19] Laila Schuman: well said....
[13:20] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:20] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Thank you herman!!!!
[13:20] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:20] herman Bergson: You stil may have some questions or remarks :-)
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed it is our actions that are meaningful, for ex today i have celebrated our national day which use to include some nice spectacle at a place nearby, then some grilling and football just before now and now im on the balcony just having a nice time
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so this day have been really meaningful to me
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause i have done nice fun things
[13:22] herman Bergson: You really have an understanding of the meaning of life Bejiita :-)
[13:22] herman Bergson: You live it...
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): do what i like to do
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what meaning has a life if one can't do what they want to do?
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a drive we have
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a very important one
[13:24] herman Bergson: Good question Beertje.....
[13:24] Laila Schuman: going to Washington DC for about 5 days to join others in lobbying congress about climate change
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): for instance, all those people suffering
[13:24] CB Axel: Good for you, Laila. Good luck.
[13:25] herman Bergson: This is the world we live in indeed....and you already sense the injustice
[13:25] Laila Schuman: crossing fingers
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): smack trump on the head from me
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:25] Laila Schuman: smiles
[13:25] Laila Schuman: i wish
[13:25] herman Bergson: Dont spoil his hair laila!
[13:25] Laila Schuman: lol
[13:26] herman Bergson: So kick his ass :-)
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or blast him with coal fumes and lets see if he still think it is good for the environment
[13:26] Laila Schuman: lololol
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:26] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hihi
[13:26] Laila Schuman: i should take you guys along
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:26] herman Bergson: As you see...you all have your meaning of life at hand :-)
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): guess so
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:27] Laila Schuman: also preparing my class for this fall... and enjoying that very much
[13:27] herman Bergson: Me too Laila :-)
[13:27] Laila Schuman: smiles
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i stopped using showerfoam in a plastic bottle
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): only use soap in a paper
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that is what I can do for the earth
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): less plastic
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i use to refill mine, less plastics to make the refills
[13:28] Laila Schuman: good idea
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then i dont use that much either but on the other hand i often stand in the shower a bit long cause feels good
[13:29] Laila Schuman: mmmmmm it really does
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well..I guess we now all deserve a nice vacation....
[13:30] Ciska Riverstone APPLAUDS!!!
[13:31] Laila Schuman: what will you do for vacation, Herman
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) ♪♥♪APPLAUDS!!!♪♥♪
[13:31] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********
[13:31] herman Bergson: So ..thank you all and Class dismissed :-))
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone APPLAUDS!!!
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone APPLAUDS!!!
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): enjoy the meaning of life and grill and bbq a lot!
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:31] CB Axel: What will the next project be?
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): puh still stuffed with halloumi even after playing football
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: u too bejiita
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): love the stuff
[13:31] herman Bergson: Is on the poster outside CB :-)
[13:31] herman Bergson: Guess you missed it :-)))
[13:32] CB Axel: OK. I'll take a look.
[[13:32] herman Bergson: lol...sorry..I missed it to put it up :-)
[13:33] herman Bergson: thought I had already :-)
[13:33] CB Axel: I remember seeing that now.
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems u did , i see no poster
[13:33] CB Axel: I'll start looking for myself now and get a jump on it.
[13:33] herman Bergson: I showed it in a previous lecture though
[13:33] herman Bergson: It is outside ..on the wall of the lighthouse
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): looking for yourself?
[13:34] CB Axel: I may go down to the river again and see if myself is there.
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:34] CB Axel: I may have left it the last time I was down there.
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that seems interesting
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone must sneak out a bit - have a great summer folks
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you too
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:35] Laila Schuman: be well Ciska
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I wonder if we are all happy when we find ourself:))
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:35] CB Axel: I have a really cool picture of a girl holding a mirror that your poster reminds me of.
[13:36] CB Axel: I'll have to look for it before September. °͜°
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:36] herman Bergson: Well Beertje it also can be nice to finde someone else :-)
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I already have:))
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not sure i have to look for myself really
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:37] CB Axel: I'll see you all in the autumn then. Bye, bye.
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu sb
[13:37] Laila Schuman: baiee CB
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cb
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tc CB
[13:37] herman Bergson: ok CB..:-)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and everyone else
[13:37] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye class:-)) see you
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have a nice summer
[13:37] Laila Schuman: be well Bergfrau
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bergie:)
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye bye
[13:38] bergfrau Apfelbaum: beertje :-) see you soon

668: The Self is an Illusion......

Make an attempt at introspection and become conscious of your Self. According to Hume you will not succeed. 
  
You will be aware of certain thoughts and feelings, but not of any Self, having those thoughts or feelings.
   
Is  this a weird idea…no Self? Was Hume just a philosophical weirdo? Fortunately the answer is NO.
   
We find a similar view in a totally different culture and it developed there independent of ours. There is no influence here.
   
Buddhists assume that the individual person is composed of five Khandas (aggregate, group).
  
It refers to the five aggregates concept that asserts five elements constitute and completely explain a sentient being’s mental and physical existence. 
   
The five aggregates or heaps are: form (or matter or body) (rupa), sensations (or feelings, received from form) (vedana), 
   
perceptions (samjna), mental activity or formations (sankhara), and consciousness (vijnana)
  
What we observe here is that in different places and times people come to the same conclusion. But does this mean that the Self is an illusion?
   
It is an issue we already have encountered before. When you take your watch apart, you can name all individual parts, but none is named “watch”. So, where is it?
   
The fact that the watch is no more than the whole of the parts does not mean that it is an illusion. 
  
It means that as long as the watch is the whole of the parts, and as long as this whole of the parts exists, the watch must exist. 
  
The only "illusion" would be if we would have a rather strange idea that a watch is something different than an appropriately assembled amount of parts.
  
In the same way, the only meaning in which Self is an illusion, is when we see it as a distinctive thing 
  
that can be determined independently of a particular body, thoughts, and certain feelings.   
   
This seems to be the only sensible conclusion we can make when accepting the Buddhist doctrine or the arguments of David Hume.
   
Thence you could come to the conclusion, that all those theories and philosophies, which claim that dissolving the Ego or Self, 
  
will offer you insight in the meaning of life are claiming something like “Take your watch apart and experience thus the real watch”
   
I’d rather say that the opposite may be true. Part of the meaning of life is exactly that, a focus on your inner self,
   
which mean a focus on getting all composing parts work together in balance and harmony. 
   
In other words, all these theories, philosophies and beliefs, that preach us to free us from our Ego or Self
   
are in fact not helpful at all to find a meaning of life.
   
Thank you for your attention again… ^_^




The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Take your time to digest this ^_^
[13:20] Dag (daggash.bayn): the most convincing view I hit on was from Krishnamurti , he stated that the self is equal to the content or actually IS the content , would that make sense ?
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Well its just like any machine or object made up of several different part, all of them is required to make up the machine/object
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same for us
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think since you mentioned buddhism the dalai lama probably has the best understanding of self than anyone i have heard or read
[13:21] herman Bergson: Think so yes.....
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the individual parts are not named same as the entire object
[13:22] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): simplest explanation i can get to
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i think that is why so many people practice yoga so long
[13:22] CB Axel: So the meaning of life can be found by getting all these parts to work well together to make a well-functioning self?
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): concentration on the self
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:22] herman Bergson: Nothing wrong with yoga Gemma...
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think so
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:22] herman Bergson: But it doesnt show you the meaning of life...
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe no
[13:23] herman Bergson: It leads to subjective and personal experiences, and people feel good about those
[13:23] herman Bergson: any physical excise is healthy..:-)
[13:24] herman Bergson: Take Bejiita...in top shape becaus eof break dancing :-)
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you get a workout and get happy at same time
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): esp with these awesome dudes im with
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:25] herman Bergson: I like the idea that the meaning of life is related to getting all inner processes in balance and harmony
[13:26] Dag (daggash.bayn): well in meditation/yoga  one can experience "no meaning" , wich is quite therapeutic and useful
[13:26] herman Bergson: Bejiita..you also have become an endorphines junky :-)))
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when I do something I like and get it good (at the moment this animation stuff) i feel good
[13:26] herman Bergson: and dopamine probably too :-)
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still looking for self tho
[13:27] CB Axel: Don't forget serotonin
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was out playing football before too with some friends, was fun but daaaamn windy it was wich did nit felt so nice even the game itself was fun
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did you eat beans?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so did i felt good and not good at same time there?
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:27] herman Bergson: and oxitocine :-)
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i guess it was 2 different sort of feelings
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the wind did not made me sad, just cold, although unpleasant not same type of feeling altough negative
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting idea
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): never thought of it like that
[13:29] herman Bergson: With the self we have this ontological problem....in what way does it exist...
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well also remember it is a word
[13:29] herman Bergson: as I said ...we ran into this issue before
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we did
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:29] herman Bergson: it is not just a word.....
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no but it can have synonyms we runn into
[13:30] herman Bergson: we can say sensible things about it which are true or false
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): different philosophers say different thing
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: we have talked about for years !!!!!
[13:31] herman Bergson smiles
[13:31] herman Bergson: This November we can celebrate the tenth anniversary of the Philosophy class :-))
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:31] CB Axel: Wow!
[13:31] herman Bergson: so yes....for some years indeed
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wow
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wow
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): time flies
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and i have not graduated  yet!!!!!
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...we grow old in the meantime too ^_^
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): me either Gemma :(
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the first year you kept talking about a test
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): never gave it
[13:33] herman Bergson: You made is to Assistent Professor nevertheless :-))
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I should have mentioned that in the interview
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was interviewed for our newspaper
[13:33] herman Bergson: You are too modest Gemma :-)
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): mentioned teh class too
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): http://slnewserpeople.blogspot.com/
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have read it
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i like the interview
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): she is good at interviewing
[13:34] herman Bergson: Oh wow..I missed that one Gemma !
[13:34] herman Bergson whispers: thnx!
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah read the paper
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): she left out a lot
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): left out the info about qwark we talked about
[13:35] CB Axel: I really should read that paper more often.
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tooo bad
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes cb
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i can give you a paper to put on your table or chair to click
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes..Qwark deserved to be mentioned....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh well
[13:37] herman Bergson: We are also getting close to our summer break :-)
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah when??
[13:37] herman Bergson: Will be two or three more lectures, I think to conclude this project
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cant believe it is June
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i lost over a month
[13:38] herman Bergson: Me neither Gemma....but it is...
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:38] herman Bergson: Welll let's dismiss class then...thank you all and mov eon to the next lecture ^_^
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so before summer we all will know what the meaning of life is:)
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:39] herman Bergson: Oh yes Beertje :-)
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:39] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all fun things we are going to do
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats the meaning of life
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman and class :-)
[13:39] herman Bergson: You come close Bejiita :-))
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats as close i can get
[13:41] CB Axel: I'll see you all Thursday.
[13:41] CB Axel: Bye
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu then
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tuesday

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

Wednesday, May 31, 2017

667: I think, but do "I" exist?

Reading my newspaper yesterday I found an article on the 48th Poetry International Festival in Rotterdam, which started May 29.
   
What attracted my attention was the theme of the festival. Poets from all over the world were invited to write an “I” poem
   
“I”/“me” should be the theme of the poem. So, this “I”, like recently was “the brain” is the leading theme of the day, it seems.
    
In that I am floating along with the main stream myself, for the theme of my next project will the this “I” too.
   
An other more philosophical word is “the Self”, which belongs to the chapter of the subject of “Personal Identity”.
    
In our search for the meaning of life last Thursday we considered the option of letting go of the Self, of a uniting with the universe as a kind of meaning of life
    
Then Descartes showed up and proved, that such an idea is nonsense. The quintessence of reality is “I”, or to be more specific “I think, therefor I am”.
   
And did Descartes thus win the debate? Although his philosophy has had a great influence in our culture, his “Cogito” is questionable.
  
The problem with Descartes thesis is, that we can understand this thinking, but where does this “I” come from. For Descartes it was a clear and distinct idea.
    
But David Hume (1711 -1776) commented on this in 1739 in “A Treatise of Human Nature” . Book 1, Ch.4, sect. 6. —> QUOTE
  
It must be some one impression, that gives rise to every real idea. But self or person is not any one impression, 
   
but that to which our several impressions and ideas are supposed to have a reference. 
  
If any impression gives rise to the idea of self, that impression must continue invariably the same, 
  
through the whole course of our lives; since self is supposed to exist after that manner. But there is no impression constant and invariable. 
  
Pain and pleasure, grief and joy, passions and sensations succeed each other, and never all exist at the same time. 
  
It cannot, therefore, be from any of these impressions, or from any other, that the idea of self is derived; and consequently there is no such idea.
  
(…) For my part, when I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure.
   
I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe any thing but the perception. 
   
When my perceptions are removed for any time, as by sound sleep; so long am I insensible of myself, and may truly be said not to exist.
<—END QUOTE
  
This quote may have been a bit tough on you, but it boils down to this. To say “I know for certain…” what should we primarily trust: our ratio or our senses?
   
It is the eternal controversy. And Hume shows us, that Descartes pulls this “I” like a rabbit out of a high head.
   
This puts us up with the question, what to do with the idea of losing the ego, losing the grip we have on our own self  
  
to make way for a kind of surrender to a more comprehensive reality, when we have to conclude  that there does not exist such a thing like the “I” ?

Thank you for your attention again… ^_^


The Discussion

[13:21] .: Thank you for your attention again… ^_^
[13:21] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ditto
[13:21] herman Bergson: To answer the remark:  do you think he was arguing in the sense that self comes from our brain vs an eternal soul
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) whispers: not losing my ego
[13:22] herman Bergson: In a sense Hume relates the existence of a self with the brain in that he relies only on the sensory  experience
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i go for senses
[13:23] herman Bergson: I agree Gemma :-)
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:24] herman Bergson: The problem with Descartes is that he never explains where he had found that "I" in his "I think"
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i just hope that this I does not lead us back to ayn rand
[13:25] herman Bergson: I see no relation there Gemma :-)
[13:25] Delicatia: i feel like i'm missing a bunch of inside jokes
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well the I was the main item in her philosophy
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I is the topic right now in the USA
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no delicatia
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's not a joke Delicatia
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Ayn rand, the mother of egoism and greed
[13:25] herman Bergson: No Delicata you just missed a lot of lectures here :-))
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:26] Delicatia: see i didn’t read ann rand like that at all
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you will see the issues
[13:26] Delicatia: i jsut read all her books last year
[13:26] herman Bergson: And what was your concluslon Delicata?
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i don’t like her and I see the present administration here as all her afficinados
[13:27] Delicatia: in a nutshell, it was the politicians that were greedy
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but she approved of it all
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): watch her videos on youtube
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes, thinking greed and selfishness is something good
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I is most importat
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wich it is NOT
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me myself andI
[13:27] Delicatia: i didnt get that out of atlas shrugs
[13:28] herman Bergson: No the I Descartes and Hume are looking for is the Self....
[13:28] herman Bergson: the question of personal identity
[13:28] Delicatia: well isnt personal identity the reality of whoever is thinking it
[13:29] herman Bergson: the question...am I the same person now as as was when  I was 10 years old, for inststance...
[13:30] herman Bergson: The main question was
[13:30] Laila Schuman: when you do not see a child for years... and then meet them again... they are different
[13:31] herman Bergson: that finding the meaning of life was related to let the EGO go....like in meditation
[13:31] herman Bergson: where the meaning of life should be the experience of oneness with the universe or so
[13:32] Delicatia: that last statement is that your belief or what we are to ponder?
[13:32] herman Bergson: and the philosophical question related to this is....do we have such an EGO....a Self?
[13:33] herman Bergson: Descartes came up with one and Hume showed that he can't find it :-)
[13:34] herman Bergson: So what to do with all these philosophuies which tell us to leave our EGO / SELF behind ...and meditate
[13:35] herman Bergson: and promis us tthat in that we'll discover the meaning of life
[13:35] CB Axel: That should have been easy for Hume. He didn't have a self to leave. °͜°
[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed CB....he couldn't find it :-)
[13:36] herman Bergson: H ecould find all his personal impressions...of pain and pleasure and so on....but that impression of this Self eluded him
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I'm Sorry! i was called to rl
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): back
[13:37] herman Bergson: While Descartes made it  his basic priciple of existence
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wb Gemma
[13:37] CB Axel: We are our experiences?
[13:37] herman Bergson: I'd say so, yes
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I guess so
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I think so cb but
[13:37] Delicatia: well those at two peoples experience and they wrote about it; it doesnt define the truth either way unless you choose to believe it
[13:38] Laila Schuman: what part of us "believes" things
[13:38] Delicatia: at-are
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): maybe thinking about it so much is a problem
[13:38] herman Bergson: I wouldnt say that Delicata....
[13:39] herman Bergson: it is not a matter of believing this or that....
[13:39] Delicatia: why isnt each of our experience just as valid as we search for "self"
[13:39] herman Bergson: it is a matter of arguments
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is why we discuss :)
[13:40] Delicatia: because after what i've just recently learned about freud and hysteria, i dont think i want any male to define what my experience or truth is
[13:40] herman Bergson: As Hume said...I experience a lot..can name all experiences..but there is none I can call "self"
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right on delicatia
[13:41] herman Bergson: Freud was a fraud :-)
[13:41] herman Bergson: His name was misspelled :-)
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what a mess he made of womanhood
[13:41] Delicatia: yet we still talk ego & id
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:41] herman Bergson: Not here Delicata
[13:41] Delicatia: i'm going through my own search for what i call my authentic self
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we all are
[13:41] herman Bergson: the ego/id story is plane nonsense
[13:42] Delicatia: because the majority of my ideas were implanted before i have free thought to say NO,
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no matter how old you get we still continue to do that
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the id in ego/id?
[13:42] herman Bergson: Then I love to advertise my next project for you Delicalta :-))))
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that was freud beertje
[13:42] herman Bergson: Don't mind Beertje....long story :-)
[13:42] Delicatia: id is the animal right?
[13:43] Delicatia: brain
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right dont get into it
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): afkorting waarvan?
[13:43] Laila Schuman: that would be Jung
[13:43] Delicatia: i cant remember now, its been a long time
[13:43] Delicatia: but no one sent me the memo it has all been debunked
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): youc an check him out n the web
[13:43] herman Bergson: id is the Latin and means IT
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but the in his time he was new in psychology
[13:44] herman Bergson: quidquid id est....whatever IT is...
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so got a lot of attetion
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): attention even
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): distractions
[13:44] herman Bergson: Like Descartes Freud sent us in the wrong direction, is my opinion
[13:45] Delicatia: i have to sl has been instrumental in my getting my own voice.. its a great place to visit new idea and step up w/o too much danger
[13:45] herman Bergson: but within their context of history it is understandable
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the symposium ovre the weekend showed that a lot
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): at virtual ability
[13:45] herman Bergson: No danger here Delicata...all problems are handled here in a delicate way
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have been trying to graduate for over 9 years
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): something new always comes up ...more questions
[13:47] herman Bergson: LIke the new project Gemma...:-)
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:47] Delicatia: lol, gemma, i got my BA 25 years after my AA
[13:47] herman Bergson: But we are not yet done with the present one
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think we should do some field trips
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in the next one
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:48] Delicatia: so is this a wrap up of a lesson
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:48] Delicatia: ah
[13:48] herman Bergson: I am thinking of combining philosophy and psychology in the next project...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thursday we will be back
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): do you have the blog website ?
[13:48] Delicatia: thursdays i have a dbt class
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear
[13:48] Delicatia: so i'm not always on
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well missing you can check on the web
[13:49] CB Axel: We've been discussing the meaning of life for weeks, but we haven't found it yet. °͜°
[13:49] Delicatia: lol
[13:49] herman Bergson: But you are always welcome Delicata
[13:49] Delicatia: i hope to make it part of tues
[13:49] Delicatia: each week
[13:49] herman Bergson: I disagree CB!
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thursdays as well
[13:50] Delicatia: for me, i have to make meaning each minute.. learning has big meaning and gets me excited
[13:50] CB Axel: Well, I haven't found it yet.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tuesday and thursday same time each week
[13:51] herman Bergson: Hope we'll find it somehow CB...:-)
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: cb - experiencing?
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): come back delicata
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oops
[13:51] Delicatia: yes, as often as i can
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): delicatia
[13:51] Delicatia: deli is fine too
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is wht i do
[13:51] Delicatia: its easier
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh good ol
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:52] herman Bergson: Well...that is all settled then :-)
[13:52] herman Bergson: Time to thank you all again for your participation :-)
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): PUUUH now i found a meaning of life finally
[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....^_^
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bej
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: Thank you herman and all
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we aare more mixed up than ever
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i finally managed to create constant speed rotation in blender with no jerking when loop restarts
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true Gemma:)
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have had this issue forever
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats one goal in life done for me
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:53] herman Bergson: Congrats Bejiita :-))
[13:53] CB Axel: LOL, Bejiita.