Tuesday, January 31, 2017

641: A way out of Nihilism.......?

If by nihilism one means a disbelief in the possibility of justifying moral judgments in some rational way 
   
and if philosophers reflect the intellectual climate of the times in which they live, then our age is truly nihilistic. 
   
At no period in Western history, with the possible exception of the Hellenistic age, have so many philosophers regarded moral statements as somehow arbitrary.
   
This is what you can read in the MacMillan Encyclopaedia of Philosophy, but I find the expression “somewhat arbitrary” questionable.
   
It interprets the human being as an organism of which its main control is its rationality and 
    
that moral standards if not rationally and logically deduced from whatever premisses, are somewhat arbitrary.
   
Here we get a kind of reasoning like, when life has no meaning or purpose, you never can know what to do.
   
You therefore have no standards for right and wrong. We have no stepping stones in our rationality, which show us the path.
  
To put it in a decent way, I strongly disagree with this view of man. After all project themes we have discussed here,
   
it might be clear that there is another interpretation possible.
  
To begin with, homo sapiens is not a rational being. That is, his existence, his life is NOT guided and controlled by his rationality.
   
Rationality is one of the assets in his behavioural repertoire, but there are many more elements.
  
At least one group of philosophers had  some understanding of this fact.
  
For many Continental philosophers, especially the atheistic existentialists, moral values are products of choices we make.
   
The most notable statement of this view is in “Being and Nothingness”  (1943) by Jean-Paul Sartre. 
  
We have no criteria to discern good choices from bad choices, but in our choices we establish our moral responsibility. 
  
This moral responsibility we create ourselves and is not based on external or supernatural sources.
   
Sartre explains it thus: Take a letter opener. It is created with a special purpose in mind. That is the meaning of this object.
   
In contrast, take a sharp object like a shard of flint, just a flint even though it could be used to cut. People discovered by accident, that it could be used for that purpose.
   
Sartre's point is that we assume that we are like letter openers and not like stone shards.
   
We believed, that we have some purpose serving an essential nature because God created us with a specific goal in mind.
  
But if God does not exist and the naturalistic interpretation of our existence is true, then the picture is not correct. 
  
We are like stone shards, which just are and nothing more. We may use ourselves for certain goals 
  
to the benefit of  ourselves and each other, but these goals can not be deduced from what we are in essence.
  
This all is reasoning in what I would call narrow minded philosophy. Narrow minded because it all focuses on our rationality as our essence only.
  
Next lecture I might offer you some alternative….
  
Thank you again for your attention… ^_^




The Discussion

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will wait for the alternative
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not a nihilist
[13:27] herman Bergson: Neither am I , I think, Gemma :-))
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): think?
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not really sure I am either
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I think I have a purpose in some way at least
[13:27] herman Bergson: That's what philosopher do....think :-)
[13:27] CB Axel: It sounds to me that people use God as an excuse to not choose a goal or purpose in life.
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh wow
[13:28] CB Axel: God has made that decision, so the individual doesn't have to make a choice.
[13:28] herman Bergson: That is too much, CB…..
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is really cynical
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): really even
[13:28] herman Bergson: Lots of people are educated within a religious environment....
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:29] CB Axel: Yeah, well, I've very cynical.
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha
[13:29] CB Axel: *I'm
[13:29] herman Bergson: YEt you have a point CB....
[13:29] herman Bergson: It has been a serious debate....
[13:30] herman Bergson: if god knows EVERYTHING....then he knows what I will do next....
[13:30] herman Bergson: where is my free will in this???
[13:30] herman Bergson: And in islamic culture you so often hear the words...IF ALLAH wants it...
[13:31] herman Bergson: This IS a serious issue in human behavior
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, we let something that does not exist decide what we should do
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's easy to say that Allah wants things..blame it allon Allah
[13:31] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...
[13:31] herman Bergson: the biggest point is....
[13:32] herman Bergson: that this SOMETHING that never has told us that it KNOWS everything is referred to as the one who knows everything
[13:32] herman Bergson: it is humans who say that this is the case....
[13:33] herman Bergson: very weird situation actually
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a bit indeed
[13:33] herman Bergson: So..nihilism is still FUN ^_^
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its an interesting subject anyway
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:34] herman Bergson: it is nihil Bejiita ^_^
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good thing there are so many other philosophies to look at and like
[13:35] herman Bergson: But  the one issue is that is that when there is no external source humans can have no moral standards
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that makes no sense either
[13:36] herman Bergson: the second thing is, that consequently moral standards are arbitrary.....
[13:36] herman Bergson: To me..both statements are nonsense....
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is a little easier to understand tho if you look at different cultures
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): having different standards
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): understand not like
[13:37] CB Axel: Moral standards evolved like we did.
[13:37] herman Bergson: to kill your friend will be a crime in any culture, I guess Gemma
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not sure about that!!!!!
[13:38] herman Bergson: To steal your neighbours pots and pans too
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: been to Samoa herman? ;)
[13:39] herman Bergson: I agree Gemma..when your friend has an affair with your wife....well...you might change your mind about it ^_^
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct
[13:39] herman Bergson: but if he does so he was not your friend GEmma
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who knew
[13:39] herman Bergson: so you kill an ****
[13:40] herman Bergson: What is in Samoa Ciska?
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: they used to have no concept for owning
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): an island with a culture that is very different
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sharing is part of life
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: not sure if thats still the case
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: but in the late 90ties it still was
[13:40] herman Bergson: If they haven’t then there can not be theft either...so problem solved
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: yes
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: exactly
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so if i buy myself a new car its ok for someone else to just take it and drive away
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not sure id be very happy then
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: I met one of them in australia living with my sister-in-laws sister
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope not bej
[13:41] herman Bergson: no no Bejiita....
[13:41] CB Axel: That wouldn't work in a capitalist society.
[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: he really did live it still there hahah
[13:41] herman Bergson: Premise ONE is....
[13:42] herman Bergson: There exists a concept of private property
[13:42] herman Bergson: only then you can have theft
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): unless its ok for me to take another car and so, like sharing in general
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the important thing is i have one so i can get around
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but never heard about a such culture
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: yes  that is practised in Australia’s outback too
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: when you leave the car in the outback you leave the keys in
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): car sharing i know about though
[13:43] herman Bergson: there could be a society where dozens of cars are standing around and where anyone can take one and use it, yes
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: in case someone is in need to get a doc
[13:43] CB Axel: Some cities do that with bicycles.
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): NY city has bikes anyone can ride
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:43] herman Bergson: YEs CB...
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats another thing indeed, a good thing
[13:43] herman Bergson: also with cars
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and leave at a bike station
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: munich too but u have to pay for it
[13:43] herman Bergson: We have Green Cars here....
[13:44] herman Bergson: You can rent them when you need them....and then leave them
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): heard of that too
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: we use that here in Munich too
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: we own no car any longer
[13:45] herman Bergson: We have this system with bikes and cars...in Amsterdam
[13:45] herman Bergson: an dwith women too...:-)
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh
[13:45] herman Bergson: oops...sorry
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahha
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: heheeh old school  - women are objects and can be owned ,)
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
[13:45] herman Bergson: no Ciska....just rented
[13:46] herman Bergson: you have to pay for it :-)
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: well if you want to rent then the one u rent from must own
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): just rent them for a short period of time Ciska..on the the "Wallen"red light district
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: otherweise the whole concept does not work
[13:46] herman Bergson: System existed already before Green Cars :-)
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and here it is against the law
[13:47] herman Bergson: to rent a car, Gemma????
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): except in one state
[13:47] CB Axel: lol
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   ,.·^*'´|'\            ,.·^*'´¯¯¯'`*^·,  ,/ |'`*^·-, 
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |  \       ,·'       ,.·:*:·,        '`i      | 
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |   |      ;          ':,:::,:·         ;      | 
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |   :i - ·;i'`:,         ¯¯         ·´|  '   | 
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):  '|         '´         '|'i   `*:~· - ~^*'´    |   |       '`*·-, 
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   '|          ,.-:^:':'\:'`:;                   :;·:i  /`':^·.,     `'i 
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   '|..,.:'´              '\| '`*^~·:-:·~^*'´'|/            '`::.., | 
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):   '´:           ;:-·^*'´                              `'*^·:;-     :;·' 
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate):       `·;:·'´                                                 '`^·:;·´ 
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): woman
[13:48] herman Bergson: What state are you talking about Gemma?
[13:48] CB Axel: OMG! I've rented cars. I feel so dirty now. LOL
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nevada
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: lol cb
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are brothels
[13:48] herman Bergson: interesting...
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): renting cars in red light district?
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): controlled by state law
[13:48] herman Bergson: but against the law???
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loool
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now I’m confused
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in all othr states yes
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): women bej
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): forget teh cars
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you can rent a car in the red light district Bejiita, but it's ofte too crowded to drive there:)))
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the police spend a lot of time arresting the renters and the rentees
[13:49] herman Bergson: Ok...enough...lol
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: hahahah beertje
[13:49] herman Bergson: let us conclude for today...
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:49] herman Bergson: that nihilism is fun
[13:50] CB Axel: Well, that discussion took an odd turn today.
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:50] herman Bergson: because renting a car can be a sexy business :-)
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but was fun
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was thinking that too
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it is supposed to do that
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles
[13:50] CB Axel: LOL, Herman.
[13:50] herman Bergson: especially in Nevada :-)
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:50] herman Bergson: SO let's all go to Nevada renting a car....who knows...
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to be here Tuesday but is sort of hard
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu next time then
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha ok
[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation...^_^
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:51] CB Axel: OK. See you all Tuesday. °͜°
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)
[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: thank you hermann
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): will see if tuesday i maybee have dinner with work, kickoff event
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not sure what day it was
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:51] herman Bergson: ok Bejiita :-)
[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman & Class!
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu all
[13:52] Alina Gabilondo: thanks :)) good night !!
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Sleep well
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten beertje
[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: gute nacht beertje .-))
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten Ciska en Gute Nacht Bergie
[13:53] herman Bergson: Bussi Bergie :-)


Monday, January 30, 2017

640: The joy of nihilism...

As we noticed last week the naturalist explanation of our existence offers little material, which could help use answer the question why we are here.
   
This could lead to the conclusion, that life as we know it in this universe is just a meaningless coincidence.
   
Some people feel rather uncomfortable to know that we are just survival machines, as Richard Dawkins calls the living organisms in het book “The Selfish Gen”.
   
The fact that organisms survive does not imply any purpose. There is no final goal or direction which we are heading for.
   
From this point of view human life is only an objectless insignificant accident.
  
My goodness…..if this is all there is ?! A lot of people don’t like this observation at all. They even do not wish to have it true.
   
The first word, which may come to mind in this context is the word “NIHILISM”. What everybody at least knows is that this word has a negative connotation.
  
The term nihilism  appears to have been coined in Russia sometime in the second quarter of the nineteenth century around  1860.
  
Use of the term spread rapidly throughout Europe and the Americas. As it did, the term lost most 
  
of its anarchistic and revolutionary flavour, ceasing to evoke the image of a political program or even an intellectual movement.
  
On the one hand, the term is widely used to denote the doctrine that moral norms or standards cannot be justified by rational argument. 
  
On the other hand, it is widely used to denote a mood of despair over the emptiness or triviality of human existence. 
  
This double meaning appears to derive from the fact that the term was often employed in the nineteenth century by the religiously oriented 
  
as a club against atheists, atheists being regarded as ipso facto nihilists in both senses.     
   
The atheist, it was held, would not feel bound by moral norms; consequently, he would tend to be callous or selfish, even criminal.
  
There are many literary prototypes of the atheist-nihilist. The most famous are Ivan in F√ędor Dostoevsky’s Brothers Karamazov  and Kirilov in Dostoevsky’s The Possessed.  
  
It was into Ivan’s mouth that Dostoevsky put the words, “If God does not exist, everything is permitted.”
  
You still hear such statements and I still do not see the logical relation between the existence of a god and the absence or presence of moral standards, especially when you look at the work of Frans de Waal with primates.

And I am not the only one.  Friedrich Nietzsche was the first great philosopher  and still the only one to make extensive use of the term nihilism.
   
He was also one of the first atheists to dispute the existence of a necessary link between atheism and nihilism.
  
The tendency to associate nihilism with atheism continues to the present.  During the course of the twentieth century, however, 
  
the image of the nihilist changed, with a corresponding change in the analysis of nihilism’s causes and consequences.
   
In a more contemporary view  nihilism is caused not so much by atheism as by industrialization and social pressures, 
  
and its typical consequences are not selfishness or suicide but indifference, ironical detachment, or sheer bafflement.
   
All together nihilism is an interesting answer to the question of the meaning of life. It seems to be not a popular one, but yet a challenging one…
    
Thank you… ^_^


Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html
Julian Baggini, What's It All About? Philosophy and the Meaning of Life (2004)  
Richard David Precht, Wer bin ich, und wenn ja, wie viele? (2007)



The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: nihil questions or remarks are expected :-))
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Hmm no nihilism expert but i know somewhat what it defines
[13:24] Starr (lynstarr): i don't see how nilihism answer the question on the meaning of life
[13:24] herman Bergson: well for us..most interesting one is "a mood of despair over the emptiness or triviality of human existence. "
[13:24] CB Axel: I'm still thinking.
[13:25] CB Axel: That's about how I feel.
[13:25] herman Bergson: What fascinates me it the fact that a lot of people have problems with the idea that life has no meaning or purpose at al...but just is
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: mh- whats the psychological approach on that?
[13:26] herman Bergson: A need for certainty and security, Ciska?
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the definition of nihilism would suggest they are bloodthirsty murderers and robbers since they done believe in any moral and thus it doesnt matter what they do
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): damn cant type today, too much pythin coding before
[13:27] herman Bergson: no no Bejiita.....
[13:27] herman Bergson: They just claim that we can not formulate absolute moral standards based on our rationality
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or do they just think everything is meaninglss, nihilism as i get it is at least no happy view in general
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but as said no expert
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just know the term vaguely
[13:28] herman Bergson: YEs BEjiita a lot of us do...
[13:28] herman Bergson: we only know that it has a negative connotation :-)
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of
[13:28] herman Bergson: which is quite interesting....
[13:29] herman Bergson: the other interesting feature is that it is often associated with atheism....
[13:29] Starr (lynstarr): that sounds logical
[13:30] herman Bergson: understandable....
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no god no moral ?
[13:30] CB Axel: I think that what worries people about nihilism is your first definition of the word. "moral norms or standards cannot be justified by rational argument."
[13:30] herman Bergson: it is only logical if you assume the premise that only a religion can offer us moral standards.....which is nonsense in my opinion
[13:31] CB Axel: They are afraid that if moral norms cannot be justified then anarchy will ensue.
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes indeed CB...
[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: but atheism itself has no moral standards - has it?
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, i dont believe in god but moral and reason are very important things to me, without it would be chaos
[13:31] herman Bergson: early nihilists were also anarchists
[13:31] Starr (lynstarr): if there is no, idk, ultimate morality, then there is none
[13:31] CB Axel: Let me share a picture with you, Herman, since I can't rez a prim here...
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we would do terrible things to each other all time
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like beasts
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or i dont know
[13:32] herman Bergson: there you are mistaken Bejiita.....
[13:32] herman Bergson: The social behavior of many animals is often more civilized than human behavior
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least we have some sort of built in empathy and such so maybe not that bad, also our individual personality play a role
[13:33] Starr (lynstarr): and more times not
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its a very complex subject
[13:33] herman Bergson: a lot of animals have this built in empathy too
[13:33] CB Axel: Ciska, the moral standards people attribute to a god are, through experiments with babies and (other) apes show that they occur naturally.
[13:34] herman Bergson: atheism isnt a philosophy on ethics....
[13:34] Starr (lynstarr): what standards?
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example i don’t think i could ever become a murderer even if moral and such did not existed, i cant see me do a such terrible thing, have alays ben a nice social guy since littl
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): little
[13:34] herman Bergson: it is an ontological philosophy about what exists and what does not exist...
[13:34] Starr (lynstarr): that is because the society has had moral standards
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: atheism itself does not say anything about moral to my knowledge ... so if someon identifies as an atheist it does not say anything about his moral standarts at all
[13:35] CB Axel: Moral standards that we are born with.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Ciska...
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think so too
[13:35] Starr (lynstarr): what moral standards are we born with?
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its in us and we need no god for that
[13:36] CB Axel: I was called a "good Christian" not too long ago, because I had done something nice. It was really hard to not laugh out loud.
[13:36] Starr (lynstarr): where do you get that?
[13:36] herman Bergson: As I said....unless you uphold the premise that moral standards are only possible under supernatural rulership by a god
[13:36] CB Axel: Herman, where are the links to those two experiments you showed us weeks ago? I think Starr needs to see them.
[13:36] Starr (lynstarr): you were influenced by the standards of morality you grew up in
[13:37] CB Axel: Infants show empathy. Apes show empathy.
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very true
[13:37] herman Bergson: here is one....
[13:37] CB Axel: You don't need to be taught what's right and what's wrong. Studies have shown this.
[13:37] herman Bergson: cant find the other
[13:38] Starr (lynstarr): where is this sense of right and wrong? who is to say what is right and what is wrong?
[13:38] CB Axel: Watch the video.
[13:38] herman Bergson: nature, Starr...
[13:38] herman Bergson: our social brain...
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think so too
[13:39] herman Bergson: Here is the other
[13:39] Starr (lynstarr): then if i am having a moment of natural anger am i justified to act out as i feel?
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa those 2 videos
[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Starr.....
[13:40] herman Bergson: But that doesn’t mean that your feelings are just uncontroled random events
[13:41] CB Axel: Starr, you can act like that, but you will know (and others will let you know) that you were wrong to do so.
[13:41] Starr (lynstarr): i'm wondering if we are talking about the same thing
[13:41] herman Bergson: they will be in line with your social context and behavior
[13:41] herman Bergson: just watch these two videos, Starr....
[13:42] herman Bergson: they even make a nihilist happy ^_^
[13:42] CB Axel: Watch the videos. Monkeys and babies understand right and wrong and fairness.
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:42] Starr (lynstarr): okay, let's say we are born with some sort of sense of good and bad... why?
[13:42] herman Bergson: survival, Starr
[13:42] CB Axel nods
[13:43] herman Bergson: only social behavior makes it possible to survive in and as a group
[13:43] Starr (lynstarr): i understand what you are saying
[13:43] herman Bergson: But our theme is ...WHy should we ever want to survive...what is the meaning of it...? :-)
[13:44] Starr (lynstarr): but i don't think i am expressing myself well
[13:44] CB Axel: Those who couldn't understand that were shunned by the group and couldn't survive on their own.
[13:44] herman Bergson: Dont worry Starr...we got all the time of the world here.....
[13:44] Starr (lynstarr): yes, Mr. Bergson, that is a good question.. why do we want to survive
[13:44] herman Bergson: many lectures to come still :-)
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:45] CB Axel: This doesn't explain why we should want to survive. That's true, Herman.
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): many questions as well:)
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Starr...indeed a challenging question
[13:46] CB Axel: Curiosity about what's going to happen next?
[13:46] herman Bergson: I think you should look at it from the other side.....
[13:46] CB Axel: Is that a reason?
[13:46] herman Bergson: there is no "wanting" to survive....
[13:46] herman Bergson: we exists...like all other organisms....
[13:47] herman Bergson: never seen a tree drop dead willingly :-)
[13:47] herman Bergson: Like Dawkins says....the gen just strives to exist...period
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why?
[13:47] Starr (lynstarr): how do we know if a tree committed suicide or not?  LOL
[13:47] herman Bergson: because it exists Beertje.....
[13:48] herman Bergson: it is innate in the system
[13:48] CB Axel is trying to picture how a tree would commit suicide.
[13:48] herman Bergson smiles
[13:49] CB Axel pictures a tree hanging itself from the next tree over.
[13:49] herman Bergson: indeed an intriguing issue
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): only humans can do that I suppose
[13:49] Starr (lynstarr): maybe that's it, CB... tree can't... even if it wanted to
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: whales maybe?
[13:49] herman Bergson: as such it is an interesting matter......
[13:49] herman Bergson: by choice ending your life....
[13:50] herman Bergson: can only humans do that?
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also plants are alive but can they feel? they neither move or talk
[13:50] CB Axel: Perhaps some creatures can just lose the will to live and fail to thrive.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): except for the Venus fly trap that is
[13:50] Starr (lynstarr): yeh
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): venus
[13:51] herman Bergson: I just in my newspaper that that even isnt true anymore Bejiita....
[13:51] CB Axel: Venus fly traps talk?
[13:51] herman Bergson: plants purposefully interact with their environment...
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no but they move
[13:51] CB Axel: All plants, at least green ones, move.
[13:51] CB Axel: Like toward the sun.
[13:51] Starr (lynstarr): they speak venusian
[13:51] CB Axel: Look at a field of sunflowers in the summer. °͜°
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i had one once and when it  died i felt sad for it
[13:51] CB Axel: LOL, Starr.
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, trees warn each other when there is a sickness ]
[13:51] Starr (lynstarr): :)
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but id probably do that for some other ones too, i have an orchid here thats been with me entire time i have lived here
[13:52] herman Bergson: yes Beertje..things like that...
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it s become a bit like a fiend
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): friend
[13:52] CB Axel: That's right, Beertje. I forgot about that!
[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (I live in near the forest)..
[13:53] herman Bergson: It doesn’t mean that plants are conscious beings.....
[13:53] herman Bergson: but they are more than just green things
[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in a way they are
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:54] herman Bergson: Talk to your orchid Bejiita and it will kiss you :-))
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:55] herman Bergson: All in all...I get the feeling that Nihilism yet is fun :-)
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no flowers on it at the moment but it just looms agai and again and have tone so for around 10 years
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): blooms
[13:55] herman Bergson: wow....
[13:55] CB Axel: I'm not sure that nihilism is fun, but it certainly is interesting.
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes another interesting subject among others
[13:55] herman Bergson: Ok CB...there is little fun in nihil ^_^
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: inrwewaarinf ia  a special kind of fun ;)
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: oops
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: interessting
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: darn.. typo day here too
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaa coded python as well?
[13:56] CB Axel: I may have to make a "Nihilism is FUN" shirt. LOL
[13:56] herman Bergson: We all speak our languages here Ciska :-)
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): don’t think its that though
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: heheh no - just my brain liking the rearrangement of the letters game ;)
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): working on yet another game featuring surralism and will make it with python
[13:57] CB Axel: Your keyboard has adopted a nihilistic philosophy.
[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: that would be great cb - count me in as a buyer hahah
[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: I bet
[13:57] herman Bergson: Guess that is it CB :-)
[13:58] herman Bergson: Well....guess we had our talk again today.....
[13:58] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation....
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: (may I ask a stupid question ? does the ghost town hud dissolve by itself? does anyone here know?
[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): great again Herman
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: )
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-)
[13:58] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: thanx all

639: A first attempt......

To get some hold on the meaning of life we can ask ourselves, where did it come from and where does it lead to.
  
Like a road, which originated  from the wish to be able to travel from A to B, which lead to the traffic from A to B.
  
Origin and purpose coincide here, which makes it quite understandable, but applied to the origin and purpose of life, it is quite different.
   
What I wish to add too, is, that those of you who have attended a number of projects of The Philosophy Class will notice, that aspects of these projects will reappear in this project. 
  
This is of course due to the fact that we assumed that the question we are dealing with now, is in fact a container of many questions.
   
If you assume, for instance, that the meaning of life is defined by our actions, then it will be related to historical, economical, social, ethical and psychological actions.
     
And in the previous projects we already have discussed a lot of these issues here.
   
So let’s return to our question of today: does our origin sheds light on the question why we are here?
  
All together you could discern two sets of theories, which boil down to what we might call creationism and naturalism.
   
Creationist theories claim that the origin of man is found in some supernatural power, which has a purpose in mind with its creation.
   
Naturalist theories state that human life emerged as the result of some blind and random physical process.
   
A philosopher like Spinoza takes a kind of position in the middle here, when he refers to God and Nature as being one and the same.
   
Let’s have a look at the naturalist theory. When you look at our diagram behind me, you see that evidence is an important ingredient of any proper discussion.
  
In that sense there is an overwhelming amount of evidence, which supports naturalist theories of the origin of mankind.
   
From the Big Bang theory up to “On the Origin of Species” by Darwin. You may believe in the Big Bang theory, 
  
but nowhere in this theory is an explanation of what caused this Big Bang, except historically 
   
that the theory was invented by Georges Lemaitre (1894 – 1966) , a Belgian Roman-Catholic priest, astronomer and professor of physics at the Catholic University of Leuven.
    
I even found a book with the title “The Universe Before the Big Bang: Cosmology and String Theory”  (2008) by Maurizio Gasperini.
   
This inexplicable first moment lead eventually to the emergence of life, another inexplicable event.
  
Let me quote Richard David Precht (1964 - ) here, the popular German philosopher:
   
Some philosophers in the early-nineteenth-century Romantic era insisted on regarding man as nature's crowning achievement ,
   
as the creature created to understand the world and to make nature aware of itself. 
  
In reality, of course, there is no reason to believe that man and his actions are the goal of evolution, and indeed even the concept of a 'goal' itself is dubious. 
  
Goals represent a very human approach to thinking (do salamanders have goals?) and are associated with typically human notions of time, as are the terms 'progress' and 'meaning.' 
  
But nature is physical, chemical, and biological, and  'meaning' is on an entirely different plane from, say, the the term 'protein.'
   
Apparently, digging into this cause of why we are here, leaves us rather empty handed for the time being……
   
Thank you … ^_^
   

Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html
Julian Baggini, What's It All About? Philosophy and the Meaning of Life (2004)  
Richard David Precht, Wer bin ich, und wenn ja, wie viele? (2007)

The Discussion

[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not helpful so far
[13:15] CB Axel: I think a salamander's goals would be to stay warm, eat, and procreate.
[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and get across the road
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:16] CB Axel: Two out of three of those are my goals, too, come to think of it.
[13:16] herman Bergson: alive :-)
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): without me driving over it
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i usually stop and let them pass but hard to spot
[13:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but what is the meaning of the salamanders life?
[13:17] herman Bergson: But these characteristics of an organism, are they called goals?
[13:17] CB Axel: Same as ours, Beertje.
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no salamanders here though where i live
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well staying alive is a goal
[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why Gemma?
[13:17] CB Axel: No salamanders? Then it must be easy to avoid them on the road.
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think all creatures want to avoid death
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes, but there can be some birds innstead sometimes
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the end
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unless something changes their minds
[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is death the end?
[13:18] herman Bergson: depends on the definition of goal, I'd say
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is another question!
[13:18] CB Axel: Staying alive might be a goal, but is there meaning in it?
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is going in a circle
[13:19] herman Bergson: If you say that a goal is chosen...that it is a premeditated choice, then salamanders have no goals
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok did we say they were chosen?
[13:20] herman Bergson: They function by the rules organisms function
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): my goal is basically, live, feel good, be with others, do all things i like, these things included
[13:20] herman Bergson: biological principles
[13:20] CB Axel: A salamander my have a choice at any given moment to either eat or have sex. So, they have to pick their goal.
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i see goal is dubious in definition
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear
[13:20] herman Bergson: you sound like a salamander Bejiita ^_^
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): loooool
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): do I?
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:21] herman Bergson: I'd say...goals you choose
[13:21] herman Bergson: like you can choose to end your life...
[13:21] CB Axel: But is a salamander happy? That's what separates Bejiita from the salamander. °͜°
[13:22] herman Bergson: a salamander cannot do that
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I hope they can feel happiness too
[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: can a crow?
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in some way
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dogs and cats can so why not them?
[13:22] CB Axel: How do we know if a salamander can or cannot choose to ends its life?
[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dWw9GLcOeA
[13:22] herman Bergson: BAsed on the principle of avoiding pain and seeking pleasure any organism can feel "happy"
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is the meaning of life ..to be happy?
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh
[13:23] CB Axel: Maybe a salamander hit by Bejiita's car has chosen to throw itself under the tires?
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one of the meanings sure is for me
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i say some think so
[13:23] herman Bergson: No Beertje..that is too vague...
[13:23] herman Bergson: I meant "happy" in the sense of a state of biological welbeiing
[13:24] herman Bergson: any organism strives to such a state
[13:24] CB Axel: Watching those crows convinces me that they know how to be happy.
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): pff my english..excuses for that
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): crows do
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: me to cb
[13:25] herman Bergson: I think they certainly know to increase their physical wellbeing, CB
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and play
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think we are going to have a lot of definition discussions in the topic
[13:25] herman Bergson: but that doesn’t gives meaning to their existence
[13:25] CB Axel: But isn't physical wellbeing more a goal and not life's meaning?
[13:26] CB Axel: Yes.
[13:26] Starr (lynstarr): i don't think we can find a meaning of life without thinking that we must be part of something greater than us... even the salamanders must be
[13:26] herman Bergson: I'd say that physical wellbeing is just a ffeature of how the system works
[13:26] Starr (lynstarr): idk if i am saying that right
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you are starr
[13:27] CB Axel: I know what you mean, Starr.
[13:27] herman Bergson: We'll certainly will get to that issue Starr
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:27] CB Axel: But what is that greater thing?
[13:28] herman Bergson: We'll get to that,, CB
[13:28] CB Axel: I have no evidence of a higher being than people wishing for one to give their lives meaning.
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: is meaning connected to evaluation?
[13:29] herman Bergson: My first observation is that what caused us into existence seems to have been a rather random process
[13:29] CB Axel: Yes. Random.
[13:29] herman Bergson: That is...when you take the naturalist point of view as starting point
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: (random from our point of view)
[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Ciska....
[13:30] CB Axel: So, according to that book, what did happen before the Big Bang?
[13:30] herman Bergson: as soon as you tend to think in terms of creationism the apparent randomness disappears
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:30] herman Bergson: I am sorry CB.....I just ran into that book title on an Amazon.com page
[13:31] herman Bergson: I found it a funny title....
[13:31] CB Axel: I may have to look at it, too.
[13:31] herman Bergson: I still have trouble with the Big Bang theory.....
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its tricky indeed
[13:32] herman Bergson: It is deduced from the movements of objects in space it seems....
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many scientists are not convinced of the big bang
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still looking at other theories
[13:32] herman Bergson: They are said to be moving away from som point.....
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was there really a such explosion and how did it happen, cant be an explosion out of nothing just like that
[13:32] herman Bergson: the expanding universe....
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...
[13:33] herman Bergson: SO this Belgian priest reversed the reasoning....
[13:33] herman Bergson: moving away form something must imply coming from some point....
[13:34] herman Bergson: and there was the big bang , I guess
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are those who think there are millions of universes
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): one after the other
[13:34] herman Bergson: Must have been a BANG because all objects in space are moving....
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): like bubbels in a pont:)
[13:35] CB Axel: Many, many years ago I read a book called "The First Three Minutes," by Steven Weinberg. It told the story of the origins of the universe, but Weinberg couldn't say what happened right when the Big Bang happened.
[13:35] herman Bergson: So...our very starting point is already such a mystery....
[13:35] CB Axel: Gemman, but how did all those universes start? That's the question.
[13:36] CB Axel: *Gemma
[13:36] Starr (lynstarr): i'm thinking... naturist... evolution... that's the way things go... like it's a process.. idk if that means things began by random accident
[13:36] herman Bergson: Nor could he tell what was happinging BEFORE the big bang, I guess
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i know
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the ALICE experiment at LHC try recreate so calle qurk gluon plasma that would had formed right in that moment and i have seen lot of data showing it really being created in that machine
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a state of matter befor all particles formed
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but does that proove the big bang?
[13:37] herman Bergson: Up to now it looks like randomness to me, Starr
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): before the big bang there had to matter
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): to be
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it just says that if you smash heavy stuff together you get a very interesting state of matter for me
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but indeed in universe there are much greater forces then we can create even with these machines so
[13:37] CB Axel: Not necessarily, Beertje. There could have been nothing but energy.
[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): energy is matter too?
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): with all these data the big bang theory just give me more questions
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): energy
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:38] herman Bergson: No idea what energy is...:-)
[13:38] CB Axel: I suppose you could say that, Beertje. Matter is energy and energy is matter.
[13:38] Starr (lynstarr): yeh isn't energy just another form of matter?
[13:39] CB Axel: Or so said Einstein.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one example is if you collide electrons or whatever at high energy they can form muons wich is a more massive type ov electron
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): energy transform into matter
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also te accelerated particles get heavier as they approach light speed
[13:39] herman Bergson: Well we aren't astrophysicists...true....but this very start doesn't give a clue about the meaning of life so far, I'd say
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so far  nope
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe there is no meaning
[13:40] herman Bergson: That was my only point for today ^_^
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we got it then!
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: its a bit like god ;) - so far wie know that fire hurts and comes from the heavens - until we know more ;)
[13:40] herman Bergson: We're not yet done with the project Beertje ^_^
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we hardly started
[13:41] Starr (lynstarr): i say we make up a definition of what the meaning of life means... then we can make whatever answer we want
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then we find out that its not fire but electricity and that it CAN start fire bit is not fire itself
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess its thunderstorms you relate to
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then we learn to harness this power
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and the fire as well
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and today we use fire to make electricity
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: @ starr - 42
[13:42] herman Bergson: As I said in a previous lecture....Asking for the meaning of life is not a question of the type that can be answered with a single answer
[13:42] herman Bergson: But indeed...so far it is 42
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true indeed
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: yes bejiita - its just getting into it deeply and as we go along before we know the details we call it god - or science or whatsoever
[13:43] herman Bergson: unless we find a better answer
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: its a working title production
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:43] CB Axel: °͜°
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: like - we must work with something
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and so far we know a b c
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and if we know aa
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: then we might reconsider to do b a bit different
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: and so on
[13:43] herman Bergson: So forgive me if I send you home a bit empty handed today....next time more luck perhaps :-)))
[13:44] Starr (lynstarr): i don't feel empty handed... a lot to think about
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): empty handed??? we have a lot to think about again
[13:44] CB Axel: This has just made me curious about what we'll discuss next. °͜°
[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation :-))
[13:44] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: thank you ehrman - thanx everyone
[13:44] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): another nice lecture
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu net time
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten beertje
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): next
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope so
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welterusten Ciska:)
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: and a great day for everyone
[13:45] CB Axel: See you all Tuesday.
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all:)
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: or night
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: of course
[13:45] Starr (lynstarr): bye... and thanks everyone

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now