952: Ratio and irrationality....

The Renaissance in Italy is maybe one of the most influential periods in the history and development of knowledge.

  

Scientists began to use the empirical cycle. Theories and hypotheses were tested by means of observations.

We first have to see it before we believe it. Does it mean that homo sapiens has become a more rational being since the renaissance?

  

To be honest, despite all science and scientific knowledge, homo sapiens is as irrational today as he was in the past.

  

He is still willing to believe and act upon such beliefs which lack a thread of empirical proof. Apart from century-old religions, the most up-to-date proof is probably The Big Lie in the US.

   

But yet in the period 13-50 to 1450 big changes in thinking take place. Empirical evidence becomes the material, that decides in matters of science,

   

In Visual Art the painter tries to copy the three-dimensional reality on the two-dimensional surface of his painting.

  

I already mentioned Batista Alberti who published his "De Pictura" on linear perspective in 1435, and not in 1415 what I mistakenly said in my previous lecture.

   

It was a mathematical approach of perspective with mathematical laws. However, just like Pythagoras mathematical theory on intervals was contradicted by empirical facts,

   

in the same way, the strictly mathematical approach of perspective didn't fit reality 100%. The man who revealed this was Leonardo da Vinci himself (1452 -1519).

   

He describes it in "Trattato della Pictura", which was published after his death. He experimented with colors and shadings to make the perspective less artificial and more realistic.

  

An interesting detail is that Albrecht Dürer visited Italy in 1506 and there learned of linear perspective.

  

With his book "Unterweysung der Messung"  of 1525 he brought the theory to the northern part of Europe.

  

Like da Vinci Dürer experimented with all kinds of instruments and constructions to get the right perspective on the canvas.

  

Most interesting is also the musicological activities in those days. The Humanists had their starting point in the theory of harmonics of Pythagoras.

  

but using only the ratio and math came in conflict with the ears and properly tuning string instruments.

  

The metaphysical background played an important role in the musicological debate on consonant intervals and harmonics.

  

Interesting detail: It was Vincenzo Galilei (1520 - 1591), the father of Galileo,  who divided the octave into 12 equal parts. Still our scale in music.

  

Furthermore, almost all 17th-century natural scientists, from Galileo, Kepler, Descartes to Huygens, have worked on the theoretical and empirical justification of consonant intervals.

  

What is the state of the empirical cycle in the early modern humanities? In all the disciplines discussed here, philology, chronology, linguistics, art theory and musicology, 

  

the empirical cycle is applied from the fifteenth or sixteenth century onwards, but not in all regions.         

   

Outside of Europe we only have any evidence for the empirical cycle in philology in China, and possibly also in history and musicology. 

   

The use of the empirical cycle in the humanities, therefore, seems to take place mainly in Europe, where the aim to revive antiquity was stronger than elsewhere. 

  

In their zeal, however, the humanists went well beyond the classics they admired: they developed new text reconstruction methods,

  

 they improved historical dating, analyzed the linear and empirical perspective, 

  

and they discovered new string laws, all based on the cyclical interaction between theory and empiricism.

  

This means, that we eventually could conclude that the main source of science and scientific methodology finds its origin in the European Renaissance.

   

Thank you for your attention.....

   

http://www.herman-bergson.nl

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Rens Bod: "Een Wereld vol Patronen".  2019

 The Discussion

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:18] herman Bergson: If you have any remarks or questions....go ahead ㋡

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:18] Somedirtycat Saule: Thanks for the lecture

[13:18] herman Bergson: For me the most interesting observation is..

[13:18] oola Neruda: Leonardo used (for perspective) scale, values, overlapping and atmospheric perspective

[13:18] herman Bergson: that the scientific method did not originate from the natural sciences....

[13:19] herman Bergson: He did more than only mathematics indeed oola

[13:20] oola Neruda: color intensity and use of compliments vs. similar colors... did not show up consciously at that time

[13:20] herman Bergson: and what I find also interesting is that it hasn't made us more rational beings

[13:21] Somedirtycat Saule: We are not humans. We are exceptional apes.

[13:21] oola Neruda: even the use of soft and hard lines...thick or thin... undulating... etc... all feed into perspective

[13:22] herman Bergson: I agree... In the 70s there was that book "The Naked Ape"... nice title

[13:22] Somedirtycat Saule: ^^

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:22] herman Bergson: Morris was the author if I am not mistaken

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes, Desmond Morris

[13:23] herman Bergson: A zoological study of the Human Animal

[13:24] herman Bergson: Free to download here https://archive.org/details/TheNakedApeMorrisDesmond

[13:24] Somedirtycat Saule: Ooh. Ty.

[13:24] herman Bergson: I never reacd it in those days

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): gotta check

[13:26] herman Bergson: 1967... I was too young then.....

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i never have read it

[13:27] herman Bergson: But it caused a lot of publicity in those days

[13:27] Somedirtycat Saule: I just threw that human ape oneliner out as Im rethinking my standpoint in human rights.

[13:27] herman Bergson: add to that animal rights Saule

[13:28] Somedirtycat Saule: Yes. Animal rights should includ us. ><

[13:29] herman Bergson: Anyway, in the Renaissance we see exceptional cognitive behavior of the naked ape :-)

[13:29] herman Bergson: And I yet must conclude that science as we know it is mainly the product of the white version

[13:30] herman Bergson: living in Europe

[13:30] Somedirtycat Saule: That times scientists, was not lazy.

[13:31] herman Bergson: the works they produced are impressive indeed

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:31] herman Bergson: But we still too have our Nobel prize winners today Saule :-)

[13:32] oola Neruda: I apologize for the earlier interruption... thought you were finished

[13:32] Somedirtycat Saule: Yes.

[13:32] herman Bergson: you didn't interrupt oola :-)

[13:33] herman Bergson: da Vinci did a lot of what you said indeed

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he was a genius

[13:33] oola Neruda: and more.... i just hit the high points

[13:33] oola Neruda: scale is a really elusive topic

[13:34] herman Bergson: He was a unique individual... a kind of Einstein avant la lettre

[13:34] oola Neruda: subtle

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he did a lot including invent the helicopter although he never managed to build a working machine but the concept was his

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes if you see his notebooks..... really impressive material

[13:35] oola Neruda: i mean... understanding the way the mind interprets various ways of seeing... that are subtle and we don't even think about it

[13:36] oola Neruda: Albers was chasing that down also

[13:36] herman Bergson: Indeed oola...he also did research on the working of the eye

[13:36] oola Neruda: yes

[13:36] herman Bergson: what did he not do....:-)   ?

[13:37] oola Neruda: he had problems with oil paint...because of the kind of reciepes they had at the time

[13:37] herman Bergson: For your information......

[[13:37] herman Bergson: next week there will be no class. I'll be on a short vacation

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa ok

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is the isle calling:)

[13:38] herman Bergson: Last class coming Thursday

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:38] herman Bergson: it is Beertje

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay

[13:38] herman Bergson: We had to cancel three times due to covid

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): be careful, covid is coming back

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now finally time

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): covid

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmm i really hope we have seen the worst of it now

[13:39] oola Neruda: will you have trees/fall colors there?

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes Oola

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes oola

[13:39] oola Neruda: good

[13:40] Somedirtycat Saule: I really hope a new better vaccine comes out

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or a medicin to cure

[13:40] oola Neruda: booster....

[13:40] herman Bergson: a pill would be handier. I'd say

[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ahh!! yayyy Nice!! finally back on the isle:-)

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): great

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you can bike to the isle Bergie..it's only 1100 km to bike

[13:41] herman Bergson: I guess we may conclude our conversation of today unless you still have questions....

[13:41] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol yes sure i can

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): don't forget to TURF there Herman ? i forgot to check if there are any zones

[13:42] herman Bergson: ok...thank you all again for your presence :-)

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): when is it wintertime?

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in the US

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but Holland is a popular place , id wanna do a TURF project there

[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank YOU Herman and class :-)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm yes soon indeed time change soon

[13:42] herman Bergson: I had expected it this weekend Beertje but it didn't happen

[13:43] oola Neruda: we often get snow around thanksgiving

[13:43] herman Bergson: So I guess next weekend

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok:)

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but US is before rest of world so

[13:43] oola Neruda: but not always and whether you are in the north or south

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): should be any time now the time chaos

[13:43] herman Bergson: Not now, it seems Bejiita...

[13:43] herman Bergson: So.....class dismissed.....^_^

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman:)

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:44] herman Bergson: And we'll wait for times to come :-))

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): good times i hope

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for sure

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:44] herman Bergson: Next week for sure, Bejiita :-))

 

951: From Metaphysics to Empiricism...

 We are following the history of knowledge. How has Homo sapiens achieved, what we now call knowledge and science?

  

We have talked about the first steps: the discovery of patterns in the world around him. The next step: discovering principles that governed those patterns.

  

This created knowledge, which means, based on these principles Homo sapiens was even able to predict the future state of affairs and events.

  

On the other hand, there was a lot he didn't know, could not explain. To deal with that part of his existence and reality he created metaphysics, gods, rituals and religions.

  

This led to situations, in which homo sapiens deduced from his metaphysical beliefs, how something should or had to be in reality.

  

A striking example is Pythagoras (c. 570 – c. 495 BC). He had some metaphysical theory about the harmony in the universe, which was reflected in mathematical relations.

  

This could in its turn be expressed by the relations between tones.

For that reason he experimented with strings and intervals. When you have two strings of different lengths and you pull those strings, each string will sound a different tone.

  

One tone will be higher or lower than the other. That difference is called an interval in musicology. Tones have names and intervals have names. I guess you all learned this in kindergarten: do(1), re mi, fa sol, la ti, do(2).

  

When you divide a string do(1) in two equal halves those two strings will both sound equally do(2). Sounding do(1) and do(2) together sounds good.

  

But what I want to make clear is, that when you use Pythagoras' math for dividing the string, things go wrong with the intervals. They will not all sound good.

   

If you tune a harp based on Pythagoras' principles the instrument will sound horrible. Aristoxenus (c. 375, fl. 335 BC) proved this and therefore decided

  

that not the theory, but the human ear should decide, the length of the strings that is to say when an interval does sound "perfect".

   

This was a first step in the human knowledge process where the empirical experience was used as the decisive test of a theory. This meant that Pythagoras' theory about harmonics was incorrect.

  

It took almost some1500 years for the human brain achieved to tip the balance between metaphysics / religion and empiricism in favor of empiricism.

  

The development and use of the empirical cycle is one of the greatest achievements in human knowledge and the Renaissance, especially Italy, is its place of birth.

  

It also played an important role in Visual Artes. Batista Alberti (1404 - 1472) published in 1435 his "De Pictura", the first book on the theory of art since Antiquity.

  

What is good art? According to Alberti should a picture of reality be so constructed that it looks as if you look through a window. 

  

To achieve this you need linear perspective and in his "De Pictura" he gives an extensive explanation, what the use of linear perspective means.

  

Linear perspective is a method of creating an illusion of depth on a flat surface. All parallel lines,  orthogonals, in a painting or drawing using this method converge in a single vanishing point on the composition's horizon line.

  

We'll talk some more about this in the next lecture, but what we can observe in the development of knowledge is,

  

that the awareness of empiricism being prior to theory was already present in Aristoxenus approach of intervals,

  

that it got its full shape in the work of the philologists and also found its way to musicology and visual arts in the Renaissance.

   

And what we can observe today is that in a relatively very short period of time this has caused an immense growth of knowledge.

   

In less than 600 years since then, man set foot on the moon....

    

Thank you for your attention....

  

http://www.herman-bergson.nl

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Rens Bod: "Een Wereld vol Patronen".  2019

  

The Discussion

 

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:17] herman Bergson: If you have any remarks or questions...feel free...

[13:17] oola Neruda: B got his perspective looking at the work of the Romans...

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): It is amazing how time just speeds up with more knowledge

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:18] herman Bergson: It is like the explosive development of IT

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Batista Alberti (1404 - 1472) published in 1435   this boy was only 11 years old when he publiced a book?

[13:18] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): De Pictura was published when he was 11? =)

[13:18] herman Bergson: Yes oola also Alberti looked at the work of Plinius for instance

[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:19] herman Bergson: sorry....1435

[13:19] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano) chuckles

[13:19] oola Neruda: nods

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): genuis type i guess

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): genius

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:20] herman Bergson: What I find astonishing is the tremendous speed of growth of knowledge if you see the developments of homo sapiens over the past 40.000 years

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:20] herman Bergson: Those people in those days were geniuses indeed Gemma

[13:21] herman Bergson: Very intelligent people

[13:21] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): It has been speculated that man became self-aware relatively recently.

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): must have been

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not just those days tho

[13:21] herman Bergson: a 100.000 years ago, if I am not mistaken Sousi

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we have many around toay

[13:21] Sousi (sousinne.ceriano): Without self-awareness, it's difficult to think in the abstract

[13:22] herman Bergson: Maybe 2.8 million years ago...homo habilis...

[13:22] herman Bergson: the use of fire....1.2 million years ago

[13:22] herman Bergson: It certainly is Sousi

[13:23] herman Bergson: But prehistoric  homonoids were social animals...

[13:24] herman Bergson: The use of tools and fire ....I don't know when full self awareness emerged...

[13:24] herman Bergson: at least it must have been a slow evolutionary process

[13:25] herman Bergson: And not only self awareness....also awareness of time is essential

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:25] herman Bergson: Chimps, elephants and some other animals possess a level of self-awareness

[13:27] herman Bergson: Guess so, Beertje :-)

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes she is not on line so i think crash

[13:28] herman Bergson: Anyway....at least we can conclude that the human brain is a peculiar instrument of which we still don't know its full capacities

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true i think

[13:29] herman Bergson: It can absorb a lot of information etc and produce knowledge in no time

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): still evolving

[13:29] herman Bergson: amazing actually

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think we are just at the beginning of knowledge

[13:30] herman Bergson: Feel actually honored to have such a brain :-)

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes beertje

[13:30] herman Bergson: Not bad in fact :-)

[13:31] herman Bergson: The future of knowledge will be a theme of a lecture indeed Beertje

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yay

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nice

[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:32] herman Bergson: ok...sans sousi maintenant :-)

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[[13:33] herman Bergson: Any questions or remarks left?

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not today

[13:33] herman Bergson: ok ^_^

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it seemed quite logical everything, still amazing though

[13:33] oola Neruda: thinking of the engineering feats in the Rennaisance

[13:33] herman Bergson: A+ for you all :-))

[13:33] oola Neruda: that matched the other advances

[13:33] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you for sharing your knowledge with us :-) Herman!

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone is online.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Same feeling here, Bejiita

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what does A+ mean?

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it stitched it together everything

[13:34] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.

[13:34] herman Bergson: 10 met een griffel :-)

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): better than A

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): een bank vooruit en een zoen van de meester?

[13:34] herman Bergson: Vooral dat laatste Beertje ^_^

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we don't count by a b c Gemma

[13:35] herman Bergson: oops...that was Dutch :-)

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lacht

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we do for marks for papers

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): teachers use

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): A for excellent

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): A+ is even better

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and Z

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ?

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): only goes to F

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): failure

[13:35] herman Bergson: US used A to F for marks....the Dutch do from 10 to 0

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and indeeed, u cant tune a piano with math, this is actually a thing me and a friend tried to do with a piano, not sure we used pythagoras formula but well that piano did not sound right either afterwards the few notes we tried it woth (we obviously did not had time to do the entire piano)

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but was a fun test

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): math can do much but not all

[13:36] herman Bergson: Bejiita...you can not tune a piano based on mathematical relations...

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i once had an 11 on my report....

[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:36] herman Bergson: You have to manipulate at least the quint

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is A+

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats what we were testing

[13:37] herman Bergson: There is little to test....

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so im very familiar with that process

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): .)

[13:37] herman Bergson: it is a fact for centuries already

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): people still experiment with known failures

[13:38] herman Bergson: I have built and tunes a harpsichord in the 1980s....

[13:38] herman Bergson: 108 strings....

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ahha

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scart

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats some

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scary

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): takes a while

[13:38] herman Bergson: it is a fascinating  thing to do

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like threading a loom

[13:38] herman Bergson: yes

[13:38] herman Bergson: Now I use my ears for my cello ^_^

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Nice!

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats a thing

[13:39] herman Bergson: I love to play in tune

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nice

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): always a good thing doing

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:39] herman Bergson: and to hear when I am out of tune a little

[13:39] herman Bergson: it is just fascinating

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you need bigger shoes

[13:40] herman Bergson: The fact that you can do that by hearing....

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): to play out of tune

[13:40] herman Bergson: I am standing next to them Beertje ^_^

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i thought so already :))))))

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I have a good ear for things in tune

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes it is a nice thing to have

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and when out of tune it instantly sounds like me at work before today wielding an angle grinder, WEEIIIOIOOOOEEEEIIIOOOOOOOOO!

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yikrd

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its strange that a small difference can sound so bad

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ouvh

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yrd

[13:41] herman Bergson: Nice instrument Bejiita :-)

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): regarding noted

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i would not call that an instrument but its fun to irritate the pacaging department nearby with noise

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:42] herman Bergson grins

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also the boss need to notice im working

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not slacking

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): haha

[13:42] herman Bergson: lol

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): running off now

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki gemma

[13:42] oola Neruda: good to see you Gemma

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you soon

[13:42] herman Bergson: Glad you are back Gemma

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): glad i'm not in your neighborhood

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yeah

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:43] herman Bergson: ok...thank you all again...

[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:43] oola Neruda: me too... they are discussing steve banon... in congress

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Nice!

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well in here its only classical music from the stream so my neighbours should be happy now

[13:43] oola Neruda: baiee

[13:43] herman Bergson: Enjoy oola

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu oola

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Oola

950: China...

 An analytical and skeptical study of classical texts also started in China, especially during the Ming dynasty (1368-1644). 

Gu Yanwu (1613-1682) was a philologist. He studied the Chinese classics. According to Gu Yanwu, such a study had to be preceded by philological, linguistic and historical research. 

  

He is therefore regarded as the founder of the School of Textual Criticism, the Kaaju Xue, also known as the 'Empirical School'.”' 

  

Gu Yanwu argued that a philologist and historian had to use both internal and external evidence to verify the authenticity of a text. 

  

Based on comparisons with as many sources as possible, the most probable judgment had to be made. 

  

Knowledge had to be derived from facts and independent observations. So here we also see the first steps towards a scientific method. 

  

One did not have to limit oneself to manuscripts, but texts could also be compared with epigraphic remains such as inscriptions in stone and bronze.

   

 While we have no direct evidence of an empirical cycle in Gu Yanwu's work, it is clear that he promotes a strongly empirical approach. 

  

It is difficult to determine to what extent this approach also has a backlash on the philological theory, but it certainly seems probable. 

  

The Empirical School of Textual Criticism has made impressive philological discoveries. Cui Dongbi (1740-1816) analyzed the extent to which Confucius was actually the author of works attributed to him, such as Spring and Autumn Annals and the Book of Songs. 

  

Doubt ensued, and today the attribution to Confucius is considered presumably inauthentic. 

  

Active work was also done on the reconstruction of old texts, among others by Jiang Yong (1681-1762). Like the ancient Greek and Roman texts were rediscovered in Europe, so we see the same process in China with its own classics. 

  

An explanation for the rather sudden emergence of this empirical philological school during the late Chinese empire is sought in the economic prosperity in the Yangzi Delta at the end of the sixteenth century. 

  

Merchants and intellectuals searched for ancient works of art, early manuscripts and rare editions. They paid huge sums of money for a single manuscript. 

   

This encouraged imitations and forgeries, which in turn furthered the study of the authenticity of manuscripts. There was also a renewed interest in the reprinting of classical works, which found their way in large numbers to Vietnam, Korea and Japan.

  

 It could be that Chinese empirical philology was given an extra boost by the arrival of the European Jesuits, who introduced Western science to China from the sixteenth century. 

  

The Jesuits were obsessed with the dream of establishing a Chinese-Christian civilization comparable to Roman-Christian Civilization, 

   

Although they did not succeed in spreading the Catholic faith, the Jesuits contributed to scientific and cultural exchange between China and Europe.

   

 Although only a very small percentage of Chinese intellectuals converted to Christianity, the Jesuit influence on the practice of science in China is considered substantial, as will be seen from their influence on Chinese astronomy 

  

Whatever the precise contribution of the Jesuits, the Chinese philological tradition is surprisingly similar to the European tradition: 

  

the rediscovery of classical works, their reconstruction, but also the forgeries and their refutation can be found in both regions. 

  

Besides this striking similarity, there is a significant difference in the reception of philology: textual criticism does not seem to have brought about 

  

radical social changes in late imperial China as it did in early modern Europe, where philological historiography has introduced a new secular worldview.  

  

Thank you for your attention....

   

http://www.herman-bergson.nl

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

Rens Bod: "Een Wereld vol Patronen".  2019

The Discussion

  

[13:19] herman Bergson: This last point is probably the most important observation....

[13:20] herman Bergson: the scientific method changed Europe

[13:20] herman Bergson: and that didn't happen in China

[13:21] herman Bergson: Ok...there may be an explanation :-)

[13:22] herman Bergson: After the Ming period there came a long period of intellectual suppression in China.....books were burned and so on

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they still do that today

[13:23] oola Neruda: thinking of the Bonfire of the Vanities

[13:23] herman Bergson: The problem was...if you had some criticism as a aphilologist on texts that implied the Emperor....you could get into danger.....and where to run to in that huge country?

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes it happens still.....

[13:23] herman Bergson: The difference with Europe was unique....

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, the Chinese government is as shitty and power hungry as back in the old days

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): suppressing all different thinking

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and will of change

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): criticism is noallowed

[13:24] herman Bergson: When you criticized the bible here

[13:24] herman Bergson: being a protestant in a catholic country.....

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): censoring the internet, murdering the uigurs calling them terrirists

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): things like that

[13:25] herman Bergson: In Europe you could run to the protestant Netherlands....

[13:25] herman Bergson: or another country

[13:25] herman Bergson: in other words....the development was not stopped

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): escaping China is much more difficult

[13:26] herman Bergson: There always  was a country where you were not considered a heretic

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and the Chinese government has long arms

[13:26] herman Bergson: indeed Beertje

[13:27] herman Bergson: Since a lot of books were exported to Korea and Japan, maybe that is how Chinise classic survived history

[13:27] oola Neruda: I remember how careful we had to be in China... about what we said... ditto in Russia... even the people we were with and trusted could not say many things in either countrty

[13:27] oola Neruda: their fear showed

[13:28] herman Bergson: Must be a strange experience.....to watch out for every word you say in public

[13:28] oola Neruda: indeed

[13:28] oola Neruda: you do not forget it

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or as i use to say, chinese government holds 1/5th ow the ehtire worlds population (over 1 billion people) hostage

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): awful

[13:29] oola Neruda: have to be careful whom you speak with

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that nothing have managed to change

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but well

[13:29] bergfrau Apfelbaum: dreadful

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:30] herman Bergson: Long time ago we had a Chinese person here in class

[13:30] herman Bergson: an apprentice in a European contry

[13:31] herman Bergson: that person asked me to remove that perso's remarks from our discussions

[13:31] oola Neruda: nods... makes a lot of sence

[13:31] herman Bergson: Someone could listen in.....

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i feel sad for these people. watched 24/7 wherever they are and one misstep and ur either dead or n torture prison for life

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)

[13:32] oola Neruda: we get visiting scientists here at the lab... and send some of ours over there.... it is interesting to be around them in conversations

[13:32] herman Bergson: We can not imagine how that feels

[13:33] herman Bergson: But it happened countrywide in China already in the 18th century

[13:33] herman Bergson: I'll have to check for accurate dating

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i saw a thing about white rooms, lit with bright lights 24/7, white chothes, white food, no shadows no sounds and no contact with anyone for years once ur inside there

[13:33] oola Neruda: and still happens

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u for one thing cant sleep under those conditions

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and u don't know what time of day it is

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): total torture

[13:34] herman Bergson: Deprivation of sensory input drives a person crazy

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i would not manage an hour like that

[13:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: china is a big prison

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): scary stuff happens, and i so wish for a change

[13:35] herman Bergson: that is to black and white Bergie....

[13:35] oola Neruda: you learn to make your way through it...

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess

[13:35] oola Neruda: it becomes normal...

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still

[13:35] oola Neruda: habbit

[13:35] herman Bergson: Take into acoount that at least 30% of Americans believe in the Big Lie.....they are happy with it...

[13:35] oola Neruda: you don't really know much different

[13:36] herman Bergson: In China millions of people are happy with their situation

[13:36] herman Bergson: whether it is a lie or not....

[13:36] oola Neruda: they are careful

[13:36] Anuska (anuska.loon) is online.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well as an outsider u don't have the entire picture

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats one thing

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well

[13:37] herman Bergson: Don't forget that almost a billion people are freed from poverty in the past decades in China

[13:37] oola Neruda: and in Russia as well.... although they way they consume alcohol and then behave...it is a wonder they survive

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha indeed oola

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): glug glug

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): russian genes

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): another would die from alcohol poisoning long before

[13:37] herman Bergson: I love to watch Russian traffic movies on Youtube ^_^

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha indeed

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): omg

[13:38] oola Neruda: watched a group at a table next to us... and one man vomited all over the table... they were loud and... ehhhhsgggga;lkagjg

[13:38] herman Bergson: The most insane and absurd car accidents....they must be loaded permanantly

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true Herman

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 'VODKA VIDKA!

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i saw them too, driving way too hard !

[13:39] oola Neruda: the waitress was not surprised.... said they hated having Russians in their establishment

[13:39] oola Neruda: that was in Hungary

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sure i drink quite a bit of such stuff but not constantly or in those amounts

[13:39] herman Bergson: Expensive hobby in Sweden Bejiita ^_^

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the Russians say the same about themselves bejiita

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well, but a bottle lasts very long for me but i always make sure i have a bottle or 2 at lest

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wodka?

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): those guys down a vodka bottle like i empty a milk cartoon

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:41] herman Bergson: :-)))

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i take a sip on weekends mostly

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Strohrum

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))

[13:41] herman Bergson: Heavy....

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): SHUDDERS

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): 80 percent

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): never tasted it but 80 %

[13:41] herman Bergson: I  think it is time for a drink and end our discussion :-))

[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol strohrum

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have a drink and trhow some plupps around!

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ineed to taste that stuff though sometime

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just see how horrible it really is

[13:42] herman Bergson: So....thank you all again and prosit, cheer, bottoms up :-)

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:42] bergfrau Apfelbaum: tyyy Herman and class:-) and cheers

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i might like it

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:42] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Proost:)))