Monday, October 24, 2022

1023: The Ethical Stance of Materialism

Having explained our philosophical position on materialism in the previous lecture, I could continue with the question why this materialist view evokes so much opposition.

     

I am almost inclined to say: POWER. Some people in our society just want to be in power over the others. 

   

Why? Beats me, personal interests or moral motivations? At least they say they are the ones who know what is good for us and society.

   

Most of the times such people are dogmatic or plain lairs driven by self-interest. We are witnessing this in real time these days.

  

Wait...there is one category of people that says: there has to be some order and organization in society, that is according to your wishes. Let me honestly do the job for you.

  

What is the position of the materialist in this situation? Materialists deny any objective grounding for morality and the notions of Good.

   

Typically, morality is viewed as the codified rules that facilitate social stability. These codified rules are no dogmas nor revelations from some other source of knowledge.

   

Materialism as such can only offer a critique to the suggestion that the code is grounded in an objective legitimacy, the source of which is often a supernatural figure or an authoritative sacred text.

    

Although materialism is an ontology and does not directly imply an ethical perspective, yet there is some close companion throughout history.

   

Until the twentieth century materialists were most of the  time outcasts, even persecuted. They were at the margins of society and often barely tolerated.

   

The reason was clear. The adherents of materialism were seen as outsiders, opponents of established norms. Most of the time that is, dogmatic norms based on the bible.

   

With the Enlightenment materialism is gradually seen as an acceptable ontological position and here we see it clearly adopting an ethical stance of freedom of thought.

  

So it can be said that materialism's ethical companion is toleration. Allow any opinion as long it is based on logic and empirically testable evidence.

  

Materialist epistemology requires that the outline of the heart of materialism, as I described it in the previous lecture, is not read as a statement of dogmas.

   

The materialist asks for evidence for any statement about the nature of the world, but it should not, in true scientific spirit, claim 100% certainty about anything.

  

The theory, that there are no gods, is a theory about nature of which the materialist acknowledges the possibility, that this belief can be false.

    

However, materialists believe that there is neither credible evidence nor powerful argument for the existence of a god,

   

so that there is a negligible probability of theism being a true theory. And that is an unpleasant point of view for those in power, that control the masses by any kind of dogmatism.

  

Just let your thoughts wander through China, the Arabic World, India, Europe, the United States and test them on dogmatism and compare it with the materialist view.

  

Thank you for your attention...

  


 Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)


TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  


  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965


The Discussion   

  

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:24] herman Bergson: I warned that it wouldn't be an easy lecture

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (still compiling)

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): done

[13:25] herman Bergson: The point is that often one of the objections against materialism is, that it has no base for ethics

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): seems so

[13:25] herman Bergson: Like religion has  (in its dogmatic points of view)

[13:26] herman Bergson: But Idisagree

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): how would you base it then

[13:27] herman Bergson: if you take freedom of thought and the obligation to prove  with empirical testable evidence what you claim, then there is a social base for cooperation among humans

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok

[13:28] herman Bergson: You claim power over others based on what others can't verify....what is that?????

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): voluntary cooperation

[13:28] herman Bergson: Take that silly abortion debate in the US

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): poor woman

[13:29] herman Bergson: When does human life in the sense of, being a person begin?

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i just wish they would call it freedom of  choice

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is the problem

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): when does it

[13:30] herman Bergson: simple...it is us that define the beginning of e person.....

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the religious consider it at conception

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah oola

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hihi

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes, but that is biologically nonsense

[13:31] herman Bergson: Hi oola :-)

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but then when

[13:31] herman Bergson: so, from a materialist point of view....you need to find a biological treshold.....

[13:32] herman Bergson: The first one I can think of is...the moment a foetus can survive independent of the mother

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well

[13:32] herman Bergson: But then the medics kick in....we can save too early born babies

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many really really early births take place

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:33] herman Bergson: in fact it doesn't change the standard

[13:33] herman Bergson: it only changes the circumstances of the possibility of survival of the newborn

[13:34] herman Bergson: Anyway..this is in my opinion a realistic way of dealing with the question.....

[13:34] CONNIE Eichel is online.

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:34] herman Bergson: while the dogmatic way is unjust

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the question remains

[13:35] herman Bergson: The biggest problem for materialists is dogmatism

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): when

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and vice versa i guess

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes Gemma and we don't escape the fact that we have to choose

[13:36] herman Bergson: In many situation we can choose based on scientific evidence....but in a lot of cases we can't

[13:37] herman Bergson: and then the question is...if not oon scientifivc evidence...on what then?

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the materialist view of war?

[13:37] herman Bergson: Well...to begin with human rights

[13:38] herman Bergson: the autonomy of a country and its borders

[13:38] herman Bergson: we have to respect those, to begin with

[13:39] herman Bergson: all things homo sapiens invented to organize his existence

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i guess that would all come under cooperation

[13:39] herman Bergson: but of course the situation is a zillion times more complex....

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it often is

[13:40] herman Bergson: there is greed, personal interests , national interests, etc.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: there are not just simply human rights

[13:41] herman Bergson: Take that christian dogma: Thou shall not kill....

[13:41] herman Bergson: ok..big deal....but we invented the word UNLESS

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): which came  out of the Hebrew

[13:41] herman Bergson: like the Crusaders did too in the Middle Ages

[13:41] herman Bergson: for instance

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:42] herman Bergson: so...all is not simply black or white...that is the human condition

[13:42] herman Bergson: and we have to deal with that

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm yes

[13:43] herman Bergson: and the way we deal with  is how the world looks like today, for instance

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a mess

[13:43] herman Bergson: Well...half full or half empty :-)

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:43] herman Bergson: take your pick :-)

[13:44] herman Bergson: If you look at medic care and education worldwide...you see an enormous improvement since a 100 years ago

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): definitely

[13:45] herman Bergson: and there are other subjects....access to knowledge for instance, transportation....

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): now does the materialist believe all are basically good?

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I wonder

[13:46] herman Bergson: hmmm...

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:46] herman Bergson: I'd say the basic good of homo sapiens is survival

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not very good

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): after all the time we spent deciding that all are basically good

[13:47] herman Bergson: our chance of survival you mean Gemma?

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the basic goodness of persons

[13:47] herman Bergson: you mean...yes?

[13:47] herman Bergson: ohh

[13:48] herman Bergson: the basic goodness of the person is his capability to live in peace and pleasure and cooperation together with his fellowmen

[13:48] herman Bergson: which enhances the survival of all

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): makes sense then

[13:49] herman Bergson: this is completely independent of his material circumstances

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:50] herman Bergson: it applies to the Neanderthaler as much as to homo sapiens or modern man

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): makes sense

[13:51] herman Bergson: Thank you, Gemma :-)

[13:51] herman Bergson: Did it make sense today at least , this class :-)

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so far

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:52] herman Bergson: indeed

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:52] herman Bergson: Then it makes sense to give our brains some rest and digest all of this the coming days :-)

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:53] herman Bergson: In other words...thank you all again...you were inspirational again...

[13:53] herman Bergson: inspiring is the word, I guess

[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm interesting. complex indeed but interesting

[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to make it Tuesday

[13:53] herman Bergson: We'll wait for you Gemma :-))

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

 

Sunday, October 23, 2022

1022: The Heart of Materialism...

 The heart of materialism is the withholding of belief in the existence of certain kinds of entities and certain kinds of phenomena. 

  There are, is the claim, no gods and devils, no ghosts, no spirits. There is no such thing as Providence, or Luck or Fate. 

  

Reality consists of material things and things that are wholly dependent for their existence on material things. 

  

Their existence is controlled by laws of nature that are independent of Will. The development of the world is not directed by any pre-established pan.

   

There is no predetermined End, good or bad, to which change is directed. 

  

Materialism believes the vital psychological phenomena of our human and animal existence are wholly dependent on the material nature of our bodies. 

  

Though it remains obscure to human understanding, they emerge, in some way or another, from our material being. 

  

There is no soul independent of our bodies, let alone one that could survive the destruction of our bodies. 

   

There is no afterlife. A human life is a temporary phenomenon, normally encompassing a timespan of less than 100 years. 

  

Epistemologically only through scientific endeavor, we can come to reliable and testable knowledge. 

   

Although there may not be a limit to what knowledge we can acquire, also for materialists psychology in general and consciousness in particular, remain a big mystery. 

   

The fact that we don't yet know everything, doe not disprove our stand. That would imply that eventually, we'll reach a true Theory of Everything, not a reasonable belief.

  

This philosophical position of course leads to all kinds of questions and objections, which we will deal with in future lectures.

    

One classic objection is this: laws of nature describe necessary causalities which never change. So, A causes B all the time.

  

If you assume that the human body is 100% matter, it must be subjected to the laws of nature for 100%,

  

in other words, all processes in the human body and in relation to that in the mind too must be the result of these causal sequences, controlled by laws of nature.

   

Here comes the catch: when everything is 100% casually related, isn't the belief in free Will just some product of our imagination?

  

If we take it one step further, you even could ask the question: how, on earth, can you ever hold someone accountable 

  

for his actions, if they are the result of causal sequences controlled by laws of nature?

   

Let's not try to solve this issue in our discussion today. This problem of Free Will is so complex, definitely in relation to materialism, it could be worth a project on its own.


We could even dig into our own past here, as we did the project "Existentialism and Free Will, starting 2 Sept 2015 .

   

Well, this was a whole load of info on where materialism stands. Still, a long way to go.......

    

Thank you for your attention again.....


 Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)


TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  


  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965


The Discussion   

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good review

[13:25] herman Bergson: thank you Gemma

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): since i missed a few classes

[13:25] herman Bergson: yes...this is all you missed

[13:25] CONNIE Eichel: yes, good one

[13:25] herman Bergson: There comes something to my mind...this free will issue

[13:26] herman Bergson: this causality argument.....

[13:26] oola Neruda: I can't get over the number of things we know because of mathematicians and physicists.... things we can think but cannot necessarily "see"

[13:26] herman Bergson: in a way understandable....

[13:26] herman Bergson: but free will is a feature of our consciousness....

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): speaking of luck how is it that one is always in the right place at the right time and misses bad thigs

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): happenings

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and others are stricken with misfortunes

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all the time

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it seems

[13:27] herman Bergson: In relation to that Gemma...

[13:27] oola Neruda: concepts of things we cannot see with the naked eye

[13:27] herman Bergson: We really don't KNOW how the brain generates consciousness......but it does....

[13:28] herman Bergson: and if you look at the conscious behavior of animals...

[13:28] herman Bergson: our consciousness transcends that level of behavior

[13:28] herman Bergson: so...

[13:29] herman Bergson: on the one hand this causality argument...but on the other hand....this transcending quality of human consciousness and thence free will

[13:29] herman Bergson: just a thought that just came up in me....

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:30] oola Neruda: do animals have free will

[13:30] oola Neruda: they kill other animals

[13:30] herman Bergson: Which simply means that we don't live in an absolute deterministic universe

[13:31] herman Bergson: I disagree oola...animals kill based on instinct and will to survive

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): instinct yes'

[13:31] herman Bergson: animals dontmake conscious choices about  should I kill or should I not....

[13:32] herman Bergson: we do...as homo sapiens

[13:33] herman Bergson: interesting as such :-)

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i would love to look into Putin's mind

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): speaking of choices

[13:34] herman Bergson: The problem with his mind is that it seems to live in another era of history

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes he wants back to the dark ages of WW2 and KGB era

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even his army lives in the past

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or he would like them to

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): brainwashed

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the KGB way

[13:35] herman Bergson: He seems to believe isn historical facts that aren't historical facts (anymore)

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its unbelievable

[13:35] herman Bergson: His army is the most amazing....using oldWW2 military tactics ...and loses

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I wonder how he connects it all when he is said to be in the church there

[13:36] herman Bergson: But we are digressing here :-)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and he have planned this for 20 years, slowly brainwashed everyone before striking and no one have been able to see the signs. Well nothing also gets out from russia so

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is i t?

[13:37] herman Bergson: Hello Al

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we were talking about materialism

[13:37] Al Michigan: hi sorry for me just  sitting in...

[13:37] CONNIE Eichel whispers: welcome dear

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi Al

[13:37] herman Bergson: Well GEmma to some extend you have a point....

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): human consciousness and free will

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): seems to be connected

[13:38] herman Bergson: There is a part of materialism that is called historical materialism...leads us to Marx's theories....and Putin is a child of that history

[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes

[13:38] herman Bergson: but that is another chapter of this project...

[13:39] herman Bergson: for now we are dealing with the ontological theory of materialism

[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shall hold the thought

[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:39] herman Bergson: We'll get back to it

[13:40] herman Bergson: Ever been exposed to materialism, Al??? :-)

[13:40] herman Bergson: Any idea what it means and what the consequences are?

[13:41] Al Michigan: ido not  know, what is the definition?

[13:41] herman Bergson: Interesting....

[13:41] herman Bergson: ok

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is very strange subject Al

[13:41] herman Bergson: it means that we as human beings are just matter and that there exists nothing else than matter

[13:41] Al Michigan: matyerialism?

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we are still figuring it all out

[13:42] herman Bergson: it is a challenge indeed Gemma :-)

[13:42] Al Michigan: oh, but how can you tell?

[13:42] oola Neruda: I must go... no choice.... see you all next time

[13:42] herman Bergson: How can I tell?

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok oola

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki oola

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu

[13:42] herman Bergson: Simple...just by using my senses....

[13:42] Al Michigan: ?me waves

[13:43] Al Michigan: Is a sense a matter?

[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the lecture  you missed is good to explain what we have been dealing with

[13:43] herman Bergson: Sense organs are material things yes....eyes, eardrums, tasting tongs...

[[13:43] Al Michigan: ah,.. i did not know...

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Herman can give it to you

[13:44] herman Bergson: Discussing it with Al...makes a lot of sense.....

[13:44] Al Michigan: pls dogiveitto me,proffesor?

[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: http://thephilosophyclass.blogspot.com/

[13:45] Al Michigan: ok

[13:45] herman Bergson: Solo hablo español, no hablo italian

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is English put together

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): do give it to me

[13:46] herman Bergson: lol

[13:46] herman Bergson: ok

[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): took a minute to see

[13:46] herman Bergson: funny :-))

[13:47] herman Bergson: But let's continue in a socratic way with AL....

[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:47] Al Michigan: ok

[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): would love to Aristotle in a discussion with a materialist

[13:48] herman Bergson: MAterialism means thence, that there are no gods, spirits, ghosts, fate, luck, destiny....

[13:48] herman Bergson: Hottest debate issue with materialists is always atheism.....

[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes

[13:49] herman Bergson: IN a next lecture I'll tell you my stand on that....spoiler....I find it a nonsense debate :-))

[13:49] Al Michigan: oh, yeah, atheists are soo agressive in their debating..., you just start to wonder why...

[13:50] herman Bergson: INDEED, Al....hit the nail right on the top

[13:50] herman Bergson: so ridiculous and a waste of time

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): because they believe as strongly as the Pope does in their beliefs

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:50] herman Bergson: But there is an explanation for this behavior....

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true

[13:51] herman Bergson: ok....one thought to take home for today....

[13:52] herman Bergson: if there is atheism.......why isn't there amartianisme too???

[13:52] CONNIE Eichel: :)

[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it was very interesting as always Thank you Herman and class

[13:52] herman Bergson: See you on Thurstday again :-)

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): homework

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Think

[13:52] CONNIE Eichel: good, hope i can join again, missed being here

[13:52] Al Michigan: a martianism? what is that?

[13:52] herman Bergson: Loved to see you all again...especially my old friend CONNIE:-)

[[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): has been a while

[13:53] CONNIE Eichel: yes, been long time, Herman

[13:53] herman Bergson: Good question all....leads to the answer what is a theism?

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh another class

[13:53] herman Bergson: But we are still here CONNIE ^_^

[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): see you Thursday

[13:54] CONNIE Eichel: good :)

[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if not before

[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: clap clap

[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):


Thursday, October 13, 2022

1021: Materialism and Epistemology....

Metaphysical theories do not stand independent of epistemological theories. Epistemology is the branch of philosophy that concerns itself with knowledge and belief.

   

Anyone asserting an ontological theory needs to have something to say about epistemology. There has to be an answer to questions like....

   

How do you KNOW that what you say exists does, in fact, exist, or on what grounds do you believe that what you say exists, really exists?

   

You could say that by nature we want to know. We want to know what caused this or that. We want to know where this or that came from. We want to know what to do next and so on.

   

This is not just about knowledge.  It also has a psychological dimension: not knowing makes us feel anxious and uneasy.

   

The issue of whether or not a theory is true, whether or not it is genuine knowledge, is most of the time not our primary concern, We just want a peace of mind.

   

This brings us to the central question of epistemology: what method do we use to achieve real knowledge?

   

Most societies through history had some theory or story about the origine and nature of the world and natural phenomena.

   

Such stories play an important role in society. In the first place, when everyone believes the same story it strengthens the social cohesion.

   


A second property of such stories and theories is, that  they very often involve reference to gods and spirits in the accounts given of natural phenomena.

  

Such stories and theories depict the worldview of a society. The epistemological origine of such a worldview is often hidden.

   

Most of the time it is based on some kind of authority, be it priests or sacred scripture. You can imagine, as we have mentioned before, that materialists have been in dispute about such worldviews most of the time.

   

In virtually all instances before the twentieth century, whenever there was a more or less established worldview materialism was in opposition to it.

  

It is a remarkable fact that materialism almost always has been regarded as something negative and a threat to society.

  

Now, what may be the possible source of knowledge? As we have seen in many projects, traditionally, in philosophy,

   

two contrasting answers to this question are empiricism and rationalism. Simply said, empiricism finds the source of all knowledge in our perception of the world through our sense organs.

   

Rationalism finds the source of knowledge in our reason. However, this not and either - or situation,

True, human beings can not be imagined without sense organs,

  

we need perception to safely interact with our environment. But as the philosopher Immanuel Kant already noticed,

   

there can not exist pure sensory input. We have to apply some reason to this stream of data to bring some order in it.

  

In other words, knowledge can only come from an interplay of reason and perception. It is a balance of power, the materialist has to deal with.

   

What is the input of reason and what the input of perception that creates real knowledge.  Current materialist epistemology has evolved

   

to coincide with what can be identified as the epistemology of modern science. With this perspective, empirical evidence  is a necessary but not a sufficient element for knowledge.

   

Any assertion about the nature of reality may start from reasoned speculation, but must be subjected to test and critique and therefore, it may face potential rejection.

   

And theories that cannot be tested rule themselves out from scientific credibility. Maybe someone might want to dispute scientific credibility as a standard of true knowledge.....

   

Thank you for your attention again....


 Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995
 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm
R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)


TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  


  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965


The Discussion   


[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman

[13:15] herman Bergson: So you may conclude that the materialist is primarily an empiricist who accepts input from reason as long as it can be tested

[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very organized

[13:16] herman Bergson: yes :-)

[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I see

[13:16] oola Neruda: scientists are very good at being sure to meet that criteria... take bubble chambers and spark chambers for example

[13:17] herman Bergson: And scientific method is his way of obtaining true knowledge

[13:17] Dien (djdien.bailey) is offline.

[13:17] oola Neruda: yes

[13:17] oola Neruda: evidence

[13:18] herman Bergson: Yes...higgs particles were predicted by reasoning, but never "seen" until they showed up in test results

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and I have seen them live

[13:18] herman Bergson: Same with quantum physics.....

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many times

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes

[13:18] herman Bergson: Einstein didn't believe in it....but yet it has been proven to be real

[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is a strange field

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very

[13:19] herman Bergson: it ids indeed Bejiita

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with relativity, how can time slow down as speed increase until it completley stops at the speed of light

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still this have been confirmed, clocks at high speed go slower then other stationary clocks

[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): have been tested and confirmed

[13:20] herman Bergson: I have no idea, Bejiita....I am only a simple philosopher ^_^

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): out in  space too

[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is true

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its one of few physical laws i dont get

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but still its there,

[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a true brain spinner

[13:20] oola Neruda: altitude also affects the clock experiments

[13:20] oola Neruda: strangely enough

[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in LHC u also can see it, if u look at the RF frequency it just ramps up in the beginning and then its more or less constant yet the energy of the beams still increase, they become heavier instead of going faster

[13:21] herman Bergson: What is more important in relation to materialism is, that there don't exist transcendent or non physical entities

[13:22] herman Bergson: That consequence of materialism has made it so unpopular

[13:22] herman Bergson: People love their ghosts, and gods

[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I can see why

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Herman

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i also like ghosts this time of year

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mr halloween creepy cozy man

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im in that mood now

[13:23] herman Bergson: Maybe materialism makes people feel uneasy......

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): creepy places Gemma?

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): tnx

[13:24] herman Bergson: Because it doesnt give that many answers

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it must have since so many dont like it

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes bej

[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lovely tho

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm yes i guess

[13:24] herman Bergson: Man's greatest fear is death,  I guess.....

[13:25] herman Bergson: Since we think in terms of time, we have problems with an observation that one's time is up at a given moment :-)

[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:25] herman Bergson: We want to live on

[13:25] herman Bergson: want

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): watching these families who lose people in Ukraine is terrible

[13:26] herman Bergson: So we create stories that ease our mind and fear

[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a mother who lost an 11 year old child

[13:26] oola Neruda: the days grow short when you meet september

[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[[13:26] herman Bergson: It is terrible indeed Gemma

[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): over 100  were taken by the storm in Florida

[13:28] herman Bergson: Seems you are a bunch of materialists :-)

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we just may be

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:28] herman Bergson: No one wants to dight about religion for instance :-)

[13:28] herman Bergson: fight

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): let every one believe what he or she wants to

[13:29] herman Bergson: The next step in materialism is to discuss its relation with atheism and agnosticism

[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nope  we have tried to avoid that in this class for 15 years

[13:30] herman Bergson: From my point of view there is little to avoid Gemma :-)

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah but the basic rule of the class was always avoid religious discussion

[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as much as possible

[13:31] herman Bergson: The hot issue in relation to that subject is the matter of how do you obtain reliable knowledge

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes...we don't deal in theology here :-))

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): unless we have to

[13:32] oola Neruda: depends on the subject under discussion

[13:32] herman Bergson: indeed

[13:32] oola Neruda: good samaritan.... woman at the well... etc

[13:32] oola Neruda: do unto others as you would have them do unto you

[13:32] herman Bergson: My point has always been that theologists begin with answers, while philosophers begin with questions

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i wish cb was still here

[13:33] herman Bergson: Still a riddle why she left SL

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i know

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaaa yes, I miss CB

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i spoke to friends of hers who do not know

[13:33] herman Bergson: She is active on a Facebook page

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): she announced I am going and went

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah give her our regards and say we miss her!!!!!!

[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:34] herman Bergson: I'll try

[13:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yes!

[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): she always had good insights from different view

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes ...and we here seem to agree with each other almost completely today :-)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to go back and read the last week class

[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i was too busy 

[13:36] herman Bergson: A peaceful class :-)

[13:37] herman Bergson: Let me thank you for all this peace :-)

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yw

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):

[13:37] herman Bergson: Class dismissed and go in peace ^_^

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): t

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): runs to get back into my ranger outfit

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's not an easy lecture, that is why we are so quiet I guess

[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and get to work!