For me, the essence of philosophical materialism is the fact that it expresses man's resistance to believing in things that do not exist. ,
Of course, this statement is begging the question because that is precisely what it is all about: the statement that certain things
in which people believe and let their lives be guided by, do not really exist. That statement must first be proved.
The only means by which we can do this, is our reason, in other words, logic and arguments.
I have a list somewhere of over 3000 gods that people have believed in throughout history. Instead of searching for this one,
I let Google search for "list of all gods and goddesses in the world": about 9,860,000 results.
1. List of Gods per cultural sphere - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_deities_by_cultural_sphere
2. List of Gods by classification: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities_by_classification
Suddenly I become aware of a somewhat strange incongruity. Materialism is the philosophical view that all that exists is matter.
This, in turn, is closely related to the premise that the source of knowledge about what exists is the senses.
Considering this, the following question prompted me. For example, when a microbiologist claims that his invention provides a very effective vaccine against infectious disease,
not everyone immediately shouts "Great", because his invention can have a major social impact. Just think of, for example, the invention of the contraceptive pill or abortion pill.
So, on the contrary, his working method is analyzed and tested.
The vaccine is first extensively tested in all sorts of ways and after a positive result, his invention is eventually accepted as reliable knowledge.
His way of acquiring knowledge is repeatable, based on empirical observations and logical deduction.
That is quite remarkable when you compare how other "knowledge" is obtained and allowed to come about. Let's call it theological knowledge.
First of all, here we have lists of thousands of gods. How did homo sapiens come to know about their existence?
Another question is, which of those thousands of gods is the true god if there is such a thing at all? After all, what method should you use to determine the true god?
Another remarkable fact is the method of knowledge acquisition. The scientist is put on the epistemological rack, as it were before his theory or hypothesis is accepted.
How does the acquisition of knowledge with regard to gods proceed?
That knowledge is considered by many people to be as reliable, if not more reliable than scientific knowledge.
Why is the method of acquiring knowledge about gods considered very reliable? What other method of obtaining knowledge than using your senses is there?
After all, here too, we must conclude that this knowledge can have an enormous social impact.
It is at least interesting to note that homo sapiens (with the exception of the materialist, of course) considers this double standard in knowledge acquisition and its consequences as quite normal, justified and acceptable.
And the disagreement on this, as far as documented in human history, is current for over 2500 years.
Thank you for your attention again.....
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
The Discussion
[13:28] herman Bergson: Silence......... :-)
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): mulling it over
[13:28] oola Neruda: why do we assume that the "god" is even conscious of us... or.. for that matter, something that can think' or care
[13:28] oola Neruda: for me, here is where high energy physics comes in
[13:29] herman Bergson: I don't know oola
[13:29] herman Bergson: The funny thing is...
[13:29] oola Neruda: especially as explaining the origin of the universe
[13:29] herman Bergson: Epicurus assumed that there were gods indeed...but they lived far way in the interstellar space not interested in human beings at all :-)
[13:30] oola Neruda: are they even thinking beings?
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a charismatic person comes and uses persuasion
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and followers believe
[13:30] oola Neruda: do we just want them to be aware of us... and have a plan
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how did Epicurus know there was an interstellar space?
[13:30] herman Bergson: oh yes Gemma.....just look at all those TV reverends in the US....
[13:31] herman Bergson: No idea...Beertje :-)
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or anywhere in the world
[13:31] herman Bergson: I guess he assumed this idea because most people assumed the existence of gods....what he meant was that they aren't related to human existence
[13:32] oola Neruda: we want answers that, frankly, are not there... so we personify them
[13:32] herman Bergson: Oh yes Gemma ....we had a few of those too :-)
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true oola
[13:32] herman Bergson: Lou de Palingboer, Jomanda....etc :-)
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol, Jomanda
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): looks up jomanda
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Girl in blue dress
[13:33] herman Bergson: The issue here is knowledge....
[13:33] oola Neruda: yes
[13:33] herman Bergson: How do we obtain knowledge in science and to what extend and under what conditions do we "believe" the outcome of such knowledge
[13:34] herman Bergson: Same question counts for knowledge of gods....
[13:34] herman Bergson: How do we obtain it and why do we accept it as factual
[13:34] oola Neruda: science on this level is above the average capability to grasp
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but if we want to understand science there are results to see
[13:35] herman Bergson: The weird thing is that a scientist has to prove and justify everything he claims to be true....there are procedures and test methods to verify and check his claims....then we are happy
[13:36] oola Neruda: average ,,,,,
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: But when it comes to the knowledge of the existence of gods......??????????
[13:36] oola Neruda: emotions
[13:36] herman Bergson: what then?
[13:36] oola Neruda: need
[13:36] oola Neruda: hope
[13:36] herman Bergson: We come complete idiots :-)
[13:36] oola Neruda: fear
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes yes oola...but that are needs.....
[13:37] oola Neruda: exactly
[13:37] herman Bergson: so you claim that we believe in things as factual because it satisfies our needs...
[13:37] oola Neruda: yes
[13:37] oola Neruda: what happens after death
[13:37] herman Bergson: That is really the scenario of The Big Lie in the US for instance :-)
[13:38] oola Neruda: we want to be comforted about it... fear reigns
[13:38] herman Bergson: We need power so we lie
[13:38] oola Neruda: not everyone.... just the trumpers
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they hold fast
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is amazing
[13:39] oola Neruda: being comforted is more potent than power
[13:39] herman Bergson: yes and they are taken down piece by piece by Garland...^_^
[13:39] oola Neruda: so you go to heaven when you die
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no htey are mstreated and all will get pardoned when he is re elected
[13:40] oola Neruda: and all your frienss are there waiting for you
[13:40] herman Bergson: I hope not....:-)
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): god forbid
[13:40] herman Bergson: My goodness...what should I do there?
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a saying
[13:40] herman Bergson: very functional Gemma :-))
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well it is going to be really really crowded in heaven
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the numbers are uncountable
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): with all those gods around:)
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): al the people
[13:41] herman Bergson: Severe competition there Beertje
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh yes:)
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sigh
[13:41] herman Bergson: So...oner the one hand we have scientific knowledge...
[13:42] herman Bergson: a materialist can live with that perfectly....
[13:42] herman Bergson: on the other hand we have that "special" knowledge based on books and revelations and devine insightsa....which also play a big role in society...
[13:43] herman Bergson: and more important....
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:43] oola Neruda: you can keep people in line by threatening hell fire
[13:43] herman Bergson: those in power do not adopt the results of scientific knwledge....but gather the flock on the basis of this special knowledge...
[13:44] herman Bergson: You should be a christian....then you know what to do with procreation and related issues
[13:45] herman Bergson: In stead of....you are a reasonable person, with knowledge of psychology, personal development, anxieties etc and thus know how to deal with procreational issues
[13:45] oola Neruda: or you appease the god who frightens you...
[13:45] herman Bergson: that is no longer current fashion oola
[13:46] herman Bergson: att least not in the West :-)
[13:46] oola Neruda: been out of the west... where a lot of things are.... hummmm
[13:46] herman Bergson: yes yes..this behavior still exists
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well
[13:47] herman Bergson: but not among my relatives for instance :-))
[[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: grins
[13:48] herman Bergson: What I wanted to show you is what materialism is questioning through the centuries....
[13:48] herman Bergson: and the fact that it alsways has lost the debate
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): long before in some places i bet
[13:49] herman Bergson: That is what I had wanted to talk about today, but this idea came up of this lecture
[13:50] herman Bergson: Might give you some material to think about :-)
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:50] oola Neruda: I stick with the physicists
[13:51] herman Bergson: good strategy oola :-))
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i guess some need aa god in their lives, because they don't have anything else
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is a need i think beertje
[13:51] herman Bergson: there are tons of theories about the WHY Beertje...but what does it help....
[13:51] oola Neruda: yes
[13:51] herman Bergson: we are stuck with this inclination of homo sapiens
[13:52] herman Bergson: and this inclination shapes our culture and politics....
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is all because we can think
[13:52] oola Neruda: it serves a purpose...... helps to keep people "in line"... or else
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): lots of different lines tho
[13:53] oola Neruda: puts POWER behind the rules
[13:53] herman Bergson: as I said oola....tons of explanations...but that doesn't get us rid of this behavior and psychological need of the individual
[13:54] oola Neruda: I guess i am also saying that same thing...in my own way
[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yes Gemma:-) otherwise we would only breed and eat
[13:54] oola Neruda: "tell them what they want/need to hear"
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): h
[13:54] herman Bergson: Well...let me say this...
[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: cheers:-) i believe in this great class!
[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: clap clap
[13:55] herman Bergson: I'll become a true believer if someone can show me the empirical method and result of how to determine which is the real god
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well not much chance
[13:56] herman Bergson: I offer the chance, Gemma...
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tho many atheists do change their idea
[13:56] oola Neruda: high energy physics... it is all atoms and molecules
[13:56] herman Bergson: to convert me :-))
[13:56] herman Bergson: In what sense Gemma?
[13:56] oola Neruda: and we put words in it's mouth
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): many philosophers do believe in a god
[13:57] oola Neruda: to calm people down
[13:57] herman Bergson: Historically, yes
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and accept without proof
[13:57] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): material proof
[13:58] herman Bergson: true..if they didn't they would have been prosecuted...like Descartes fled to the Netherlands to stay safe
[13:58] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i remember that
[13:58] herman Bergson: But Sartre didnt believe in a god
[13:58] herman Bergson: Nor dir Betrand Russell
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): de chardin did
[13:59] herman Bergson: He was a catholic priest
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but a philosopher
[13:59] herman Bergson: and a fraudulent scientist, as far as I know
[13:59] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmm
[14:00] herman Bergson: Manipulating historical finds or something like that
[14:01] herman Bergson: Theillard de Chardin is not really regarded to be a philosopher. At least seen from my education
[14:01] herman Bergson: I know him as a priest who wrote a book about man's history
[14:01] oola Neruda: would the god here be the same as on a different planet... especially in a different range of time
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): might check farther
[14:02] herman Bergson: That is asked too much oola...to many pre-assumptions:-)
[14:02] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting thought oola
[14:03] oola Neruda: I am looking at the "clockwork" of the universe
[14:03] oola Neruda: not the question of "if"
[14:03] herman Bergson: yes Gemma...I'll do too...I had his book on my bookshelf when I was young...something like Le phenomen human ...or so
[14:03] herman Bergson: interesting to dig up such old stuff
[14:04] herman Bergson: But oola...just imagine the difficulties....
[14:04] herman Bergson: God created Adam and Eve HERE...on this earth....!
[14:04] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): time to run see you tuesday i hope
[14:04] herman Bergson: Did he have a side show too????
[14:05] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) is offline.
[14:05] herman Bergson: ok Gemma :-)
[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma
[14:05] herman Bergson: Thank you for coming
[14:05] oola Neruda: if he is really God... he could have many side shows
[14:05] herman Bergson: sure but then he cheated on us.....we think we are unique....
[14:05] oola Neruda: there are other planets....
[14:06] oola Neruda: THINK is the key word
[14:06] herman Bergson: haha...
[14:06] herman Bergson: yes..we are such silly creatures...you are right oola :-)
[14:07] oola Neruda: pitiful, really
[14:07] oola Neruda: want to control how other people behave
[14:07] herman Bergson: From a scientific point of few however.....
[14:07] herman Bergson: the chance that there has developed life on an other planet just like it happened on earth.....
[14:08] oola Neruda: yes... with variations
[14:08] herman Bergson: well....if you understand Darwin, you would say.......0.000000000000000000000000000001 % or less
[14:09] oola Neruda: Darwin can't hold a candle to God... . or to philosophers
[14:09] herman Bergson: At least , that is my opinion
[14:09] oola Neruda: in the end, we are all sub-atomic particle standing in our proper places
[14:10] herman Bergson: What does that expression mean oola....to hold a candle to.....
[14:10] oola Neruda: does not create the depth of the item being compared to
[14:10] oola Neruda: they are not equal lights
[14:11] oola Neruda: candle vs sunlight
[14:11] herman Bergson: No Darwin is the bigger light indeed :-)
[14:11] oola Neruda: or sun.... for that matter
[14:11] oola Neruda: over the scientists?
[14:11] oola Neruda: he is one
[14:12] oola Neruda: and evolution is likely... all over the place
[14:12] herman Bergson: Confused...idiomatic expression I do not understand :-)
[14:12] herman Bergson: Time to ease our brains.......
[14:13] oola Neruda: how bright is a candle to read by... vs. the light from a headlight or circus
[14:13] herman Bergson: Thank you all again....was a pleasure again debating matters with you
[14:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[14:13] herman Bergson: I just blow the candle oola...:-)
[14:14] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class
[14:14] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^
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