1051: The end of the All-MIghty....

It is around 1900 and materialism is now in the open. No longer a highly distrusted theory on the fringes of philosophy, but a solid justification of Marx's interpretation of the historical development of mankind.
   
It is the material world that shapes the consciousness of the people and this leads to a growing awareness of the social classes in society, their position, and their justified rights, based on the material relations in the state.
 
Of at least equal significance for the history of materialism is the impact of an advance in biology. It is difficult to overestimate the impact that the theory of evolution has had on our conception of the world, and difficult too to overestimate the scope of its acceptance in the scientific community.
   
It is inevitable, that we have to address the issue of atheism, for the non-existence of any transcendental or spiritual entity or force is inherent in the materialist point of view.
   
I'd rather avoid it because materialism is closely related to science and it is more interesting to discuss the consequences of a scientific worldview than to discuss beliefs and fantasies which have no relation with science at all.
 
Well, there have been attempts to create a kind of link with science by claiming that it can't be otherwise than that there has to exist a design and thence a designer behind all this, that we call our world.
   
Newton (1643 -1727) already wrote: " Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors. Can it be accident that birds, beasts, and men have their right side and left side alike shaped.........", (...)
   
Whence rises this uniformity in all their outward shapes but from the counsel and contrivance of an Author? (...) These and such like considerations always have
 
and ever will prevail with mankind to believe that there is a being who made all things and has all things in his power and is therefore feared." -end quote-
   
It is worth observing how Newton sneaks into the theist stance the need of the pious to be fearful. Religion has the aim of keeping men fearful. Epicurus and Lucretius seek the exact opposite.
   
While materialism and atheism aren't still in the open in those days, let alone, that you would write openly about it, David Hume (1711 -1776) had found a trick to push the issue and invented a "friend who loves skeptical paradoxes" in "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion" (1779).
   
As you see, it was published after his death and not without reason, for the key point delivered in this camouflaged way is that there is an illegitimate leap from the evidence of the existence of a craftsman, an "Author", to the assertion that that is also evidence for the existence of a god.
   
Just take this observation of Philo, this "friend who loves skeptical paradoxes": "If the cause be known only by the effect, we never ought to ascribe to it any qualities beyond what are precisely requisite to produce the effect....." -end quote- I'd say 'case closed'.
   
Philo offers further arguments, but we can conclude that this is a powerful reply to the argument of design for the existence of god, but it wasn't until the theory of evolution that it was dealt the final blow.
   
Evolution is understood as a random process in which the fittest survives, not the most perfect in whatever sense, but the one most adapted to its environment. We have all kinds of evidence for this thesis.
   
Believers in a god transgress the boundaries which are set by Philo's argument. However, when this designer is an all-knowing, all-loving, all-mighty, benevolent designer,
 
why, then did it/he/she create all these creatures on this planet that can feel pain, eat each other, get ill, get cancer, can be sadistic and murderous, and eventually if not by violence, simply die?
   
If that was by design.... OMG ...... ^_^
   
Thank you for your attention again...
   

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

The Discussion 

[13:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:14] herman Bergson: Silence.....
[13:14] herman Bergson: No smiles.....
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Its not a but, its a feature!!
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as programmers say
[13:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bug
[13:15] bergfrau Apfelbaum: I've often wondered that too.....why why why
[13:15] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the same questions still remain
[13:15] herman Bergson: that is the point, Bergie, there is no WHY in evolution, just randomness
[13:16] herman Bergson: We just happen to be conscious
[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hmmm
[13:16] oola Neruda: I'm with the evolution thought
[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good thing we just happen to have two hands and feet too
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is still all amazing
[13:17] bergfrau Apfelbaum: lol Gemma
[13:17] bergfrau Apfelbaum: hahaa
[13:17] herman Bergson: Yes. quite handy, Gemma :-)
[13:17] bergfrau Apfelbaum: we humans ONLY ask about things to which there are (still) no answers
[13:17] herman Bergson: It is, Gemma . absolutely....
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true Bergie
[13:18] herman Bergson: But let me give you an example of evolution
[13:18] oola Neruda: have been studying the universe, star by star... element by element...the rise of life (here) (there???).... how the gasses etc react to light , blah blah blah.... and so i go with the astronomers and scientists.... and evolution
[13:18] herman Bergson: The process.....
[13:18] herman Bergson: happens every day
[13:18] herman Bergson: I say a Youtube clip.....
[13:19] oola Neruda: a lot of high energy physics in the process...
[13:19] herman Bergson: A petri dish with a virus on it   and 'lanes of material containing antibiotics
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm,
[13:19] herman Bergson: lane one 10%, lane 2 20% up to a 1000% lane
[13:20] oola Neruda: evolution... even of the presence of things that are not alive... but are affected by their environments
[13:20] herman Bergson: the virus was put at the beginning of the lanes.....
[13:20] herman Bergson: in a few hours the virus had evolved to a virus that was able to survive the 1000% of antibiotics
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): scary research but necessary
[13:21] herman Bergson: pure evolution...survival of the fittest in a petri dish in a lab
[13:21] herman Bergson: there was no god or designer needed for that...it just happened
[13:22] herman Bergson: Which showes that a use of too much antibiotics creates resistant viruses
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they evolve
[13:23] herman Bergson: This was a lab test...small scale and in a short time.....
[13:23] oola Neruda: stars evolve... planets evolve... etc
[13:23] herman Bergson: but this process is developing for millions of years already
[13:23] oola Neruda: exactly
[13:24] oola Neruda: or billions
[13:24] herman Bergson: Keep in mind.....we, as human beings, are just observers, spectators.....
[13:24] oola Neruda: a happy accident
[13:24] herman Bergson: we have not a single clue about what why is happening in evolution
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well i think a lot of scientists do now have a clue
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): clues
[13:25] herman Bergson: as I said last Tuesday....we are the prisoners of the limitations of our minds, and brain
[13:25] oola Neruda: there IS a history of the universe... and it is mostly on an atomic level
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is so true
[13:25] herman Bergson: What clues are you thinking of Gemma?
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am not a scientist
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but i think those who are are always looking at evolution
[13:26] herman Bergson: In a sense of causality we KNOW what is happening and why indeeed
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and do see what is happening
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): especially in the micro world
[13:27] oola Neruda: and universe.... worlds
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:27] herman Bergson: evolution has no final direction or goal... Aristotle would have believed that
[13:28] herman Bergson: We understand the causal structure of matter...that makes science possible
[13:28] oola Neruda: nor the stars... sun... planets
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aa
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:28] herman Bergson: Just to give it a context
[13:29] herman Bergson: I watch a TED talk "Why We are Alone in the Galaxy"
[13:29] herman Bergson: very interesting......
[13:29] herman Bergson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nCOhrYV7eg
[13:29] herman Bergson: nice homework for the weekend :-))
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also seems strange. That this would be the only planet with life other then maybee small microbes
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will watch
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): there is a unsettling theory of the big filter, that all other intelligent organisms have already wiped itself out with nukes and pollution and now Putin will soon do the same with all of us
[13:31] herman Bergson: You know, Bejiita.... that idea, that  it is strange....that is also strange if you have watched this clip
[13:31] bergfrau Apfelbaum: to think we're the only ones is selfish
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i sure hope thats not the case
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:31] herman Bergson: Just think....
[13:31] oola Neruda: water is a factor... it is on some planets and not on others
[13:32] herman Bergson: if evolution is a random process....why would it follow the same route on other planets?
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and certain chemicals too oola
[13:32] oola Neruda: exactly
[13:32] herman Bergson: sure...
[13:32] herman Bergson: but the randomness of the process.....
[13:32] herman Bergson: Watch this man explaining it to you...really interesting
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well cause there has to be more planets like ours, earth cant be the only planet in the entire universe with the right conditions for intelligent life
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or idk
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): universe is HUUUUGE after all
[13:33] oola Neruda: one factor is orbit vs. mayhem
[13:33] herman Bergson: modesty has never been the most prevailing virtue of man:-))
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very very true
[13:34] herman Bergson: so..listen to this man:-)
[13:34] herman Bergson: is fun
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill check
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok will do
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i will
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bookmarked
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa same here
[13:35] herman Bergson: And in relation to materialism....I also ran into a TED talk about the decline of religiosity....
[13:35] herman Bergson: It confirmed my idea.....
[13:35] herman Bergson: materialism is related to science,  knowledge...
[13:35] herman Bergson: religiosity is just a cultural thing
[13:36] oola Neruda: agree
[13:36] herman Bergson: it will disappear eventually....
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:36] herman Bergson: The man showed interesting statistics
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think it should have since long already
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): only cause wars
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and suffering
[13:36] herman Bergson: Why there is no way back for religion in the West | David Voas | TEDxUniversityofEssex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtAR_OGzlcg
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): religion is a recipe for conflict mostly
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mostly
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): more homework!!!!!
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:37] herman Bergson: No agitated yelling like Harris or Dawkins would show...just simple presentation of facts
[13:38] herman Bergson: oops...yes sorry Gemma :-)
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): shall look at that too
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): long weekend
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ill check the stuff out also
[13:38] herman Bergson: Well...some homework after 1051 lectures....can't  be too much, I'd say
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok ill try and see of i can get to an event im invited to, its that surrealist place again
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just started
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no not after 1000 with none
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:39] herman Bergson: Ok Bejiita...but stay real :-))
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): after so many lectures we had a lot to think about
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i cant use Unreal at same time, too many people, eats all memory as is
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes beertje
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sim is often full
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): even without homework:)
[13:39] herman Bergson: heads have grown indeed Beertje :-)))
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if i cant get there i come to card place
[13:40] oola Neruda: think microscopic... for a LOT of the answers
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:40] oola Neruda: about the most HUGE things
[13:40] oola Neruda: and their temperatures or lack of
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): need huge things to look for the smallest stuff (LHC)
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)=
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): what happened to al michigan?
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): btw
[13:41] herman Bergson: What about Michigan Gemma?
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Al
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you miss him?
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he was coming to class so often
[13:41] herman Bergson: oh...Al :-))
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he had some original thoughts
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:41] herman Bergson: Last time he said he hadn't finished his homework...since then he hasn't shown up anymore
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh oh
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ow:))
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heheh ok,
[13:42] oola Neruda: was he an artificial inteligence bot
[13:42] herman Bergson: no....
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no oola
[13:42] oola Neruda: AI ?
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): naaa ChatGPT was not created yet then
[13:43] herman Bergson: oh..before I forget....:-))
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one of few ais hard to distinguish from a real person
[13:43] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:43] herman Bergson: otherwise you have to stay allthe time....
[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i cu over there is sim is full
[13:43] bergfrau Apfelbaum: clapclap
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh i just look at the date and he has not been on line since Feb 4
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:44] herman Bergson: Poor Al....guess this class was his playground
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you think?
[13:44] herman Bergson: oh yes....
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think he was really thinking
[13:44] herman Bergson: he was indeed
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and really wanted to participate
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but got off course once in a while
[13:45] herman Bergson: nicely said, Gemma ^_^
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ツ
[13:45] herman Bergson: But we didn't throw him out..on the contrary
[13:46] herman Bergson: Like that looney on that horse
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): OMG!!!
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): omg
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he was a real griefer i think
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): his livelihood
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:46] herman Bergson: I love them :-)
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the really good ones from years back have mostly retired
[13:47] herman Bergson: Makes me a griefer too then :-))
[13:47] herman Bergson: yes...isn't it a pitty....
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: grins
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): all old people here  :)))
[13:47] herman Bergson: self replicating prims...strange sound objects....I miss them
[13:47] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye Gemma:-)
 

   
 

1050: Nineteenth Century materialism.....

Within modern philosophy, there are sometimes taken to be two fundamental conceptions of idealism. Number one is the idea
 
that something mental, the mind, spirit, reason, will, is the ultimate foundation of all reality. This has been called “metaphysical” or “ontological idealism”.
   
Number two is the position that, although the existence of something independent of the mind is conceded, everything that we can know about this mind-independent “reality” is held
   
to be so permeated by the creative, formative, or constructive activities of the mind that all claims to knowledge must be considered, in some sense,
 
to be a form of self-knowledge. We only know what is in our head or brain. This has been called “formal” or “epistemological idealism”.
   
Berkely is an example of position one and the famous Immanuel Kant can be regarded as an example of position two. We'll leave the chapter on idealism here and continue the journey into materialism.
    
The scenery of materialism changes in the 19th century. Till then materialist philosophers had been rather cautious in preventing serious conflicts with the authorities. An important reason was of course, that atheism was a logical implication of materialism.
    
This changed when two men entered the arena, Karl Marx and Charles Darwin. To begin with Marx. We all know that we have to dislike him, even fear him, or at least his ideas, which lead to socialism, marxism, or even communism.
   
Let's put that aside for a moment and see what Marx thought about materialism and what he added to the materialist theory. Materialism is complimented by Marx for understanding the physical reality of the world,
   
but is criticized for ignoring the active role of the human subject in creating the world we perceive.
 
Idealism understands the active nature of the human subject but confines it to thought or contemplation. The world is created through the categories, like extensiveness or causality, we impose upon it.
   
Marx combines the insights of both traditions to propose a view in which human beings do indeed create, or at least transform, the world they find themselves in,
   
but this transformation happens not in thought but through actual material activity, not through the imposition of sublime concepts but through the sweat of their brow, with picks and shovels.
   
Material life determines, or at least “conditions” social life, and so the primary direction of social explanation is from material production to social forms, and thence to forms of consciousness.
   
Along these lines of thinking materialism became related to social action and what made materialism explicitly unpopular was Marx's conviction
 
that the people were alienated from the real and natural community it formed, and were misled by a false idea of community as expressed by religion.
   
To quote Marx himself: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and de soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people,
 
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness." -end quote-
   
Marx was influenced by the German philosopher Feuerbach (1804 - 1872). Feuerbach's contribution to the materialist tradition may be considered in two aspects: first a critique of idealism and second a critique of Christianity.
   
He turns idealism, which was popular in his time, on its head and argues that rather than thought, or spirit, being primary, it is matter that is primary and from which thought emerges secondary.
   
Correspondingly, he sees the Christian of god as a projection of human faculties. The predicates that religious believers apply to God are in fact predicates that properly apply to the human species-essence of which God is just an imaginary representation.
   
These were the shoulders Marx stood on and you can imagine that it made some authorities nervous. And what is more, it brought materialism and atheism in the open and on the stage of public and political debate.
   
We all know history and all that has happened under the banner of Marxism, socialism, and communism.
    
These aspects aren't the subject matter of this project, so we let them sleep for now. All we can say now is, that this history doesn't disqualify materialism as a feasible philosophy.
   
Thank you for your attention again....
 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

The Discussion 

[13:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:18] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ,:)
[13:19] herman Bergson: Well,  the beast is freed....atheism.....
[13:19] herman Bergson: Connected with a social economical theory
[13:20] herman Bergson: I am glad to see that it doesn't upset you that much :-))
[13:20] Jane Fossett: Doesnt knowledge of god imply materialism? God implies a material basis for the knowledge of his existence...
[13:20] Somedirtycat Saule: If religious ppl wa so worried there must been something they feared to lose. As God seems to not be easy to lose it must be some wordhly privileges
[13:21] Somedirtycat Saule: materialistic privileges lol
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:21] herman Bergson: My opinion is that religion is a matter of power and politics, control over the people.....
[13:21] Somedirtycat Saule: I hope i insinuated that
[13:22] herman Bergson: and secondly the arrogance of believing that they as religious people hold the holy grail of moral principles
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly, it was just brainwashing already back then and the church leaders did not really believed in god already back then, just a way to control the "dumb" masses
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one theory
[13:22] Jane Fossett: Well even in a more basic sense... the foundation of Logic implies some level of materialism
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and thus they knew they could possibly loose that control
[13:22] herman Bergson: Could you elaborate on that Jane?
[13:23] Jane Fossett: and now Quantum contradicts logic
[13:23] herman Bergson: Seems so, yes...:-)
[13:23] Jane Fossett: QED
[13:24] herman Bergson: Which shows that logic also is a product of our brain....
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): But quantum effects at least are proven and there are even working quantum computers now
[13:24] Somedirtycat Saule: Still Einstein thought it was bogus
[13:24] Jane Fossett: yes yes yes
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so thats no hocus pocus
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but its tricky to wrap head around it for sure
[13:24] oola Neruda: I see religioius ideas as a mother.... how can she protect her child?  She needs the child to behave but more than that, she needs people "our there" not to mislead, harm, or otherwise hurt her child
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:25] Somedirtycat Saule: Aw sorry afk for rest of discussion, dog emergency
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes oola, that is the psychological approach....the apparently human need to have a guide...
[13:25] herman Bergson: a parent....
[13:25] Jane Fossett: dog is just 'God' backwards
[13:26] herman Bergson: Never thought of that.... sounds cynical
[13:26] oola Neruda: also, there are ways to comfort people when bad things happen... especially when there is othing they can do about it... like funerals.... saying goodbye...
[13:26] Jane Fossett: I've never met a cynical dog
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaah
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): god maybe is a dog, idk
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least dogs can make u happy
[13:27] herman Bergson: If I am not mistaken cynical is derived from the greek woord dog... kune..not sure
[13:27] Jane Fossett: wonders: What does religion have to do with philosophy anyway...
[13:28] herman Bergson: As for me, nothing Jane....
[13:28] herman Bergson: But culturally and socially we can't deny the existence of religion....
[13:28] Jane Fossett: archaic explanations for physical reality
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we question stuff in philosophy so questioning religions to be or not to be is a valid subject i think
[13:28] Jane Fossett: ok true.
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just like everything else
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): why is this or that
[13:29] herman Bergson: Just look at the ceiling here  and see all thousands of gods homo sapiens has prayed to
[13:29] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:29] herman Bergson: My real problem is our brain.....they way we think....
[13:29] theo Velde is online.
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the neat little list, its almost as long as all the c++ variables I've put in Unreal Engine scripts today
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or not really
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed LOTS of gods
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): over the times
[13:30] herman Bergson: I mean...wwe see reality as we describe it...and here I call it the material world
[13:30] herman Bergson: all kinds of animals see a totally different reality
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[13:31] Jane Fossett: we are all animals
[13:31] herman Bergson: That is my issue with quantum physics or Big Bang theory....
[13:31] Jane Fossett: living in a material world
[13:31] herman Bergson: yes we are, Jane
[13:31] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:31] herman Bergson: Kant had that nice question......
[13:32] herman Bergson: As a student I had to read "Die Frage nach  dem Ding" by Heidergger
[13:32] oola Neruda: what about quantum physics or Big Bang?
[13:32] herman Bergson: It means...how do we know Das Ding an Sich....the object as such....
[13:33] herman Bergson: Like the empiricists say...knowledge is based on sensory input.....
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all we can do is analyze the data we can get from these phenomenons like James Webb and LHC
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and deduce from this
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): + math to make a theory to be proven with these tools
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and make the math work
[13:34] Jane Fossett: if i stop looking at the moon, does the moon go away? (einstein)
[13:34] herman Bergson: so we only have our senses....like all other animals have....and we all see a different world...the object as such we can nort see
[13:34] herman Bergson: That fascinates me,
[13:34] Jane Fossett: yes.
[13:34] herman Bergson: dor from a materialist point of view, this object must exist
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): It does in a game engine (It clears everything out of computer menory the player cant see) but in rl, no moon is still there
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also that question if are false and none is there does it still make a sound
[13:35] herman Bergson: In that sense Kant is interesting....
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:36] herman Bergson: he accept the existence of a real world independent of our sensory experiences....
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its not just in our minds?
[13:36] herman Bergson: but yet says...it is our brain that organizes our sensory input and thus shapes a reality
[13:36] Jane Fossett: well thart is true
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well id say that is correct
[13:36] oola Neruda: my husband and I have been taking a class... for weeks now... on the universe.... and the explanation of all kinds of matters re: origin, interactions, results... blah blah blah... with math besides.... the astronomers have good reasons for the conclusions they come to
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:37] Jane Fossett: :-)
[13:37] herman Bergson: I can't deny that indeed Jane
[13:37] Jane Fossett: we process a small amount of the reality around us
[13:37] oola Neruda: I just wish we could leave the math out of it... but we can't
[13:37] herman Bergson: This makes it interesting to see how the materialist of today who likes to be called a physicalist is going to solve my question :-)
[13:38] herman Bergson: Another weird matter , oola
[13:38] herman Bergson: The world seems to be mathematical
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): language of the universe
[13:39] oola Neruda: the discussion is mathematical...
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): language
[13:39] herman Bergson: That is...the language of mathematics appears to be a perfect way to describe reality
[13:39] Jane Fossett: math is logic
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this is also what makes it possible for computers to represent just EVERYTHING using only math
[13:39] herman Bergson: That is what Betrant russell tried to proof in his Principia Mathematica.....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): binary math even
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to show images, play sounds, simulate stuff ect
[13:40] herman Bergson: Bertrand :-)
[13:40] oola Neruda: physics... and math .... hand in hand ...have a lot to say
[13:40] Jane Fossett: and many of the eccentricities of math may be relevant to our view of reality
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:40] herman Bergson: I still haven't a complete insight in all these related issues...
[13:41] Jane Fossett: example: why does Plank-bar constant include Pi?
[13:41] oola Neruda: for the universe, you need to get down to the basic "particle"... and go from there
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:41] herman Bergson: When I was a student I had the idea about our brain that it is the ruler with which we try to measure the ruler we hold in our hand
[13:42] oola Neruda: good way of seeing it
[13:42] herman Bergson: I mean....we analyse the brain with the brain we have....
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:42] Jane Fossett: if you have a bigger brain you don't have a bigger ruler :-)
[13:42] herman Bergson: very odd situation which we can not transcend
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): recursion
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of
[13:42] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita
[13:43] herman Bergson: I still have no clear answer to such questions
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well recursion in programming is tricky enough, have tried that at least and made a total and undebuggable mess
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:43] herman Bergson: In that sense atheism is an easier subject in this context :-)
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its so hard to grasp in all forms
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least for me
[13:44] herman Bergson: yes recursion isn't easy
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed not
[13:45] Jane Fossett: perhaps we might start with atheism and then create a mathematic virtual universe that constructs God.
[13:45] herman Bergson: Now tou can ask it ChatGPT, Jane....
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (wonders if UE5 can do that, its quite good at simulating stuff as it is now)
[13:45] Jane Fossett: haha
[13:45] Jane Fossett: yes
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a god simulator
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im on
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:46] oola Neruda: I don't see it as mathematical... I see it more like Buddha... who says to be a decent person in this world... behaving with kindness etc
[13:46] herman Bergson: At least one that gives answers :-))
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we already have goat simulator also made with UE  so God simulator next maybe
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think they used UE for
[13:47] Jane Fossett: i can see the new god answering all questions with : "7"
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or 42
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:47] Jane Fossett: haha yes
[13:47] herman Bergson: no no Jane....ahs to be 42 :-))
[13:47] oola Neruda: yes 42
[13:47] Jane Fossett: and i get burned at the stake
[13:47] Jane Fossett: haha
[13:48] herman Bergson: Well...I guess enough to think about for today including the meaning of life :-)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 42 i can put into UE easily, its just an integer, but what to do with that number later to actually simulate the meaning if lfe, that can be some complex algorithms
[13:48] herman Bergson: Maybe you can save the next question for the lecture of Thursday :-))
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well im up for the task!
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): after i have finished modeling Giethoorn :9
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:49] herman Bergson: Any question left unanswered :-))) ?
[13:49] Jane Fossett: thank you Prof Herman!\
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): starting taking shape now , made some cool houses im gonna throw in
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well another good one indeed
[13:49] herman Bergson: Then, Thank you all again for our interesting conversation....
[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): always some interesting stuff
  

1049: What is Real.....?

When an object, for instance, a colorful toy, is hidden from sight, infants under the age of 8 to 9 months often become upset that the item has vanished, even when they saw you cover it in plain sight with a cloth.
   
They don't search under the cloth. The object is gone, no longer exist. This is because they are too young to understand that the object continues to exist even though it cannot be seen.
   
If you have ever played a game of "peek-a-boo" with a very young child, then you probably understand how this works.
   
It is called the cognitive insight of object permanence, which means knowing that an object still exists, even if it is hidden. It requires the ability to form a mental representation of the object.
 
You know what the toy looks like and you know that it is under the cloth and when you are gifted with the insight of object permanence, you lift the cloth, and bingo!
   
Babies aren't philosophers. They don't question reality. They are organisms that interact with their environment, learn and come to conclusions, which enable them to constantly improve their interaction with their environment.
    
In that continuous process of interaction one of their conclusions is, that, when you don't see an object, it still exists. So, as human beings, we grow up with the awareness of an external world, independent of us.
   
But then, when grown up, we become philosophers and start asking questions. And then we all of a sudden discover that we are trapped in our own heads. How do you mean.... an external world?
   
Yes, I have experiences of a world in which I live, but read my lips... EXPERIENCES. I only have sensory experiences in my mind. I see things and say they are real, but when I am dreaming of hallucinating, I say the same.
   
So, when I am asked, what do you know, what are you certain of, then I only can answer, that what is in my mind. For the rest, I can't give you any guarantee.
 
Maybe this already rings a bell. The philosopher who analyzed this to the bone was Descartes with his "Cogito, ergo sum". The only thing I can be 100% sure of is that I have thoughts, but even the content of these thoughts I can doubt.
   
It lead some philosopher, George Berkeley, even to believe that our reality was only constituted of our sensory input,
 
and that object permanence was guaranteed because everything was also in god's mind. Well, ok, he is excused, he was a bishop.
 
But what I am thinking about is the fact, that what you see in Berkeley's philosophy, is that it could very well be the case, that philosophers have a strong inclination to overrate the mind.
   
We do enormous things with this mind. I recently spent time watching all kinds of movies on Youtube, in which astronomers and astrophysicists explained tons of things about time, space, gravity,
   
how space-time is bending light, what happened at the moment of the Big Bang, what all our space telescopes see,
 
how we see things that happened billions of years ago, that the universe is some 13 billion years old...... stop!
    
All these ideas are originating from our mind, but they are also encased in the limitations of our mind, for whatever you may think, the real questions aren't answered by all these impressive astronomical theories.
    
For instance, if the universe has a duration, what was there before the beginning, is there any indication of an ending of this duration of the universe, and if not why not?
   
This makes me think of the Indian materialists of some 1000 years BC. Some of them were so strict, that they said, what we really know is what we experience, our sensory input.
 
All inferences based on sensory experience do not lead to reliable knowledge, unacceptable as truth.
 
If you take the Big Bang theory, it is knowledge based on inference. I know there is a link with astronomical observations,  but let's discuss that some other time.
   
I guess my line of thinking went to outer space today, but what it boils down to is the question, how do we position the phenomenon MIND in our debate about Idealism and Materialism? I think, good for another lecture....
    
Thank you all again for your attention....
 

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

The Discussion  

 

[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you, herman
[13:18] herman Bergson: The basic question today is regarding the reality and existence of an external world
[13:18] herman Bergson: because all we only have is what is in our heads.....sensory input
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed all we know is based upon inputs from the outside that we hear that this is how it is, like with the baby example in the beginning
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sound, sight feel, smell ect
[13:19] herman Bergson: indeed
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the we start making logical connections
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): then3
[13:19] herman Bergson: But here comes the catch......
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that then become our accepted reality
[13:20] herman Bergson: yes, Bejiita but watch this.....
[13:20] herman Bergson: we have sensory input.....
[13:20] herman Bergson: ok....we all agree on that....
[13:20] herman Bergson: but WHAT is this input?
[13:21] herman Bergson: How does it get organized so that we say...ahhh that is an apple
[13:21] herman Bergson: or yes, that is a circle
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its true that some other species for ex see colors differently, some can even see in IR or UV and they see colors different then we so what we see as say green or red might not be green or red for them
[13:22] herman Bergson: YEs...I am thinking about that sometimes myself....
[13:22] herman Bergson: How does reality look like for a dog for instance?
[13:22] herman Bergson: Doe s the dog 'think" we are dogs on two legs?
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:23] bergfrau Apfelbaum: parents teach us that this is an apple
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): in the evening when the sun goes down, i see the sky as violet, my husband says it's blue, totaly different color for me
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and also in reality without an eye that can see a spectrum of em there is only darkness, our breain creates the perception of light and color
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same with sound, vibration in air only
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): brain turn it into sound
[13:24] oola Neruda: some people teach.... prejudice
[13:24] herman Bergson: I once sat on a  terras next to lady who talked to her dog in German....and I wondered....how does she know the dog understands her German?
[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes we can learn a lot...but that doesn't say anything about the existence of an external world
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): same way as we understand english?
[13:26] herman Bergson: I saw the dog consulting a dictionary :-)))
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dogs can learn a language also even it cant speak it,
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so they learn to understand your language, at least parts of it common words ect
[13:27] herman Bergson: All jokes aside...dogs learn sounds and to combine them with behavior...they have no understanding of language
[13:27] oola Neruda: tone of voice?
[13:27] herman Bergson: yes
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): maybe they don't know the exact meaning but when a dog hear the word food for ex it knows there is something in the food bowl and goes there
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): learn things like this
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in your language
[13:28] herman Bergson: it has learnted to connect the sound with the appearance of food...Pavlov did it by ringing a bell...same effect
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes, a classic  Pavlov's bell
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the dog bell
[13:29] herman Bergson: But what it is about today is the question, what is in your mind?
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): classic experiment
[13:29] herman Bergson: IS what is in your mind the real thing, or is it the result of stimuli from an external world
[13:29] oola Neruda: for me, it is experiences...
[13:30] herman Bergson: and if so...how are we able to organize and understand all this input?
[13:30] oola Neruda: what happened last time this whatever came up...
[13:30] oola Neruda: context of experience
[13:31] herman Bergson: next lecture we'll pay a visit to Immanuel Kant...he had some bright ideas about the question
[13:32] oola Neruda: ,my mother would give us canned sardines as we lived FAR from where there were fish... they had tiny bones in them
[13:32] herman Bergson: In a previous project we already studied the ability of the mind to recognize patterns
[13:32] oola Neruda: so when I ate a watermelon and ran into the little white seeds... i thought they were bones...
[13:32] oola Neruda: context of experience
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): everything is fish
[13:32] herman Bergson: funny....the bones of a melon :-)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ir everything has tiny bones in them
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:33] herman Bergson: but understandable
[13:33] oola Neruda: pre school
[13:33] herman Bergson: yes..and a logical deduction at that age :-))
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa before u know the difference , u had that sardine can so u expect everything to have tiny bones in them
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if thats your first input from what u most often eat
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): things like that
[13:35] oola Neruda: no bones in the sandwiches...peanut butter. but no bones
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): canned tuna ect in tomato sauce was and still is a fav, love it on a piece of bread
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ate that a lot as little
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to breakfast
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and similar
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): damn now i want that!
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): forever since
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i had that
[13:36] herman Bergson: Better to end our discussion here before we begin to exchanges recipes of all sorts :-)
[13:36] oola Neruda: lol
[13:37] herman Bergson: So, thank you all again.....
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well preparing for the night snack later afterwards
[13:37] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.....
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :) or is it just me that have those?
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes just you
[13:37] herman Bergson: tuna sandwich it will be today Bejiita ^_^
[13:37] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you! Herman and class

1048: Idealism....

 Something isn't right, but I am not sure what it is. Imagine this planet without homo sapiens. What do we have? A perfect ecosystem, based on a never-changing food chain.
   
Life comes and goes with the seasons and it eating the other or being eaten by the other depending on your place in the ecosystem.
 
It would be one healthy planet. For two million years humanoid primates, til Australopithecus afarensis at least it all ran like clockwork.
   
Then some primates got smart and in another two million years we eventually got homo sapiens, the species that turned everything upside down.
 
To begin with, he put himself at the top of the food chain, while his ancestors had lived somewhere in the middle.
   
Look at this timetable, the ratios. Four million years of life on earth, projected in a year. We live in the final seconds of the year and the clock is five minutes to twelve.
   
In less than two hundred years, a second in relation to the time this planet exists, we have done more damage to the ecosystem than ever has happened in the previous millions of years.
   
And this is all due to some turn in evolution, that peculiar mutation in the DNA of some primates, which has resulted in self-awareness. Well, evolution has no plan except its basic rules of survival, procreation and survival of the fittest.
   
Ok, no plan, so here we are, a mind in a material body and we haven't the slightest idea how this material body brings consciousness to life.
 
The only thing we know is that there is an absolute relation between the functioning of the physical brain and the presence of self-awareness and consciousness.
   
This results in that we KNOW, that we exist. That means that we are aware of time, past, present, and future. We know that there are others who also know and we all know that we exist in some reality that isn't us, an outside (the mind) world.
   
Materialists are quite comfortable with this conclusion, but, of course, have to deal with a number of problems. If everything is matter and subjected to the causal laws of nature, how do we explain free will, for instance?
 
You also can accept a more soft materialism. Soft materialism agrees with hard materialism that the only substances are material objects but claims
 
that some of these objects, for instance, persons, have mental properties that are different from physical properties. Brain events certainly often cause mental events and vice versa.
      
But you also can leave the realm of materialism and claim that the only real thing for homo sapiens is the mental, the ideas and concepts that exist in the mind.   
 
George Berkeley (1685 – 1753), known as Bishop Berkeley was an Anglo-Irish philosopher whose primary achievement was the advancement of a theory he called "immaterialism", later referred to as "subjective idealism" by others.
   
This theory denies the existence of material substance and instead contends that familiar objects like tables and chairs are ideas perceived by the mind and, as a result, cannot exist without being perceived.
 
Berkeley is also known for his critique of abstraction, an important premise in his argument for immaterialism.
   
This typically means that only ideas exist, ideas in the subject's mind. Hence Bishop Berkeley's claim that all that exists is minds or spirits and their ideas.
    
Point to a so-called object in the external world, say a chair, and the answer from an idealist is likely to be that the chair is just a collection or complex of ideas :
 
we say it is brown, but that means just that we have a perception of brown. We say that it is solid, but that only means that we will experience the idea - a feeling - of resistance if we touch it.
   
Berkeley needs careful handling. On his account ideas cannot be the effects produced in us by objects in the external world.
 
Then how do they originate? Among the minds or spirits is God. God produces in us all our ideas.
   
What's more, God controls all minds or spirits simultaneously and creates the aggregates of ideas that we call chairs, the sun, and other constants and continuants in what we (or 'the vulgar') take to be the external world.
 
Some ideas exhibit a regularity in our experience which causes us to regard them as Laws of Nature. As you see, a rather extreme philosophy. However, it shows a few points I want to make.
   
Idealism is linked with the Christian tradition and above all, which is more important to me, it is an example of how homo sapiens likes to believe
    
that he is special, kind of above nature. There even is a country on this earth that means that it is exceptional.
   
We'll continue this line of thinking next Thursday..... thank you for your attention again.
   

Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

 http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.htm

R.G. Brown/J. Layman, "Materialism", Routledge (2019)

TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------  

  1 - 100 Philosophers                         9 May 2009  Start of

  2 - 25+ Women Philosophers                       10 May 2009  this blog

  3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking                       10 May 2009

  4 - Modern Theories of Ethics                       29 Oct  2009

  5 - The Ideal State                                               24 Febr 2010   /   234

  6 - The Mystery of the Brain                                  3 Sept 2010   /   266

  7 - The Utopia of the Free Market                       16 Febr 2012    /   383

  8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism                      5 Sept 2012   /   413

  9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist                             6 Nov  2012   /   426                        

10  - Non-Western Philosophy                               29 May 2013    /   477

11  -  Why Science is Right                                      2 Sept 2014   /   534      

12  - A Philosopher looks at Atheism                        1 Jan  2015   /   557

13  - EVIL, a philosophical investigation                 17 Apr  2015   /   580                

14  - Existentialism and Free Will                             2 Sept 2015   /   586         

15 - Spinoza                                                             2 Sept 2016   /   615

16 - The Meaning of Life                                        13 Febr 2017   /   637

17 - In Search of  my Self                                        6 Sept 2017   /   670

18 - The 20th Century Revisited                              3 Apr  2018    /   706

19 - The Pessimist                                                  11 Jan 2020    /   819

20 - The Optimist                                                     9 Febr 2020   /   824

21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream                8 Oct  2020   /   872

22 - A World Full of Patterns                                    1 Apr 2021    /   912

23 - The Concept of Freedom                                  8 Jan 2022    /   965

The Discussion     

[13:20] herman Bergson: By the way....
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Berkeley would have loved sl
[13:20] herman Bergson: maybe you already recognized some kind of Platonic thinking in Berkley's philosophy :-)
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i don't call objects that i stumble over and hurt myself if i walk into them like tripping over a chair just a perception of my mind
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that chair IS there and also the floor that broke my knees when i landed on them
[13:21] herman Bergson: He certainly would have loved the Oculus Quest 2 VR
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:22] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): phone
[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i guess
[13:22] herman Bergson: Well, Bejiita, that was once someone objecting to Berkeley in the same way...
[13:23] herman Bergson: But B would insist on telling you that these are the real ideas in your mind, I guess
[13:23] herman Bergson: And of course guaranteed by god
[13:23] herman Bergson: Berkely is extreme in his immaterialism
[13:24] herman Bergson: NO idea how he got there...maybe via Plato
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also not sure if God create high end gaming rigs like the computer im using, the machines at the factory where i work or the car i drive
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as bejita says
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or my 3d printer wither
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): either
[13:24] herman Bergson: But where I want to go is the observation how homo sapiens overrates his mind....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we create these things
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): how cab can it be overrated
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): can
[13:25] herman Bergson: On the one hand you could say we are an anomaly  in nature
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont) is online.
[13:26] herman Bergson: but on the other hand...if you take Darwin strictly...evolution has no plan
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the difference that we  make decisions
[13:26] herman Bergson: then we are just a consequence of evolution
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and not live by instinct
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): big difference
[13:26] herman Bergson: yes Gemma
[13:27] herman Bergson: but we yet are a result of evolution
[13:27] herman Bergson: there is Beertje :-)
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if materialists are all right
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes i saw
[13:27] Lecturehall: 2023-02-14  [23:27]  Beertje Beaumont
[13:27] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): beertje huhu
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa here is Beertje
[13:27] herman Bergson: Hello Beertje.....:-)
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hi .)
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sorry i'm late
[13:28] herman Bergson: did you overslept?
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ja zoiets:)
[13:28] herman Bergson: ^_^
[13:28] herman Bergson: Keeps you healthy :-)
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)))
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:29] herman Bergson: Next Thursday I'll dig some deeper into idealism.....
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok
[13:30] herman Bergson: The point is that idealism emphasizes the "reality" of ideas.....
[13:30] herman Bergson: for instance aesthetic ideas....art, literature....all the beautiful things man creates
[13:32] herman Bergson: but then on the other hand I always have to think of all the atrocities man can perform too....torture, murder, violence and so on....even total destruction of mankind
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we can do nasty things for sure
[13:32] herman Bergson: I am trying to understand these extremes
[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we all do all the time
[13:33] Second Life: Gemma Cleanslate gave you Isle of View Social Platform.
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): naaa then we would all be Putins
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and we are not
[13:33] herman Bergson: No, I try to understand it in a wider context....
[13:34] herman Bergson: we are a product of evolution...
[13:34] herman Bergson: we are capable of doing magnificent things.....
[13:34] herman Bergson: look at medicines for instance...
[13:35] herman Bergson: and on the other hand we can be extremely destructive....
[13:35] herman Bergson: I am working on it to understand it within a materialist ontology
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:36] herman Bergson: Working on it ^_^
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is there maybe a demon or evil gene that dudes like Hitler Putin Trump, Stalin ext got
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that made them into monsters
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one gotta wonder
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): how some get to be so extreme
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no  not if you do not believe in a god that takes one another direction
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): wont work
[13:37] herman Bergson: Individuals are important, Bejiita, but the people around these individuals are the facilitators
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess its more complex
[13:37] herman Bergson: it is...
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): the brain and all connections are still not quite understood i think
[13:38] herman Bergson: there wouldn't have been a Hitler if there hadn't been a Goering, Göbbels and Krupp steel etc
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:38] herman Bergson: no Gemma they aren't
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm one follow the other i guess
[13:39] herman Bergson: If you look at the structure of the brain....
[13:39] herman Bergson: The basis is called the reptilian brain...
[13:39] herman Bergson: it ocntains all functions and actions you find even in the reptile's brain...
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Greed for power makes people evil, brutal and inhuman
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Bergie
[13:40] herman Bergson: During evolution....for millions of years...some extra brain tissue was added....
[13:40] herman Bergson: the brain grew....
[13:40] herman Bergson: MAybey it has become a mess.....
[13:41] herman Bergson: Not all parts are perfectly in tune with each other
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah might be so
[13:41] herman Bergson: Like we see that rational thinking and emotional behavior are often conflicting
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:42] herman Bergson: And then we say....yes my brain says do this, but my heart says do that :-)
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): good thought for Valentine day
[13:42] herman Bergson: every dillema shows that our brain isn't a computer
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....:-)
[13:43] herman Bergson: My brain says...don't sent that card, but my heart....:-))
[13:44] herman Bergson: By the way...I didn't receive any cards today :-(
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): me either
[13:44] herman Bergson: awww....
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i got a new linden bear tho
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and a promise of two more
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): when they are made
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (jump hugs Herman and Gemma and everyone else) Hop Hop Hop!
[13:44] herman Bergson: even that I didn't get....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bears are always the best Gemma
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you can get one anytime from any linden or mole you see just by asking
[13:45] herman Bergson: So...we'd better end our conversation here, before more disappointments are revealed :-)))
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in im
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): going now to dunk one!!
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and hug another
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: When sending a love card, one should turn off the mind :-)
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed what now, go there?
[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you for being with me on Valintines day :-))
[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ....
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i sent you the landmark
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): isle of view
[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!