After our latest lecture, Jane mentioned it already in the discussion, morality antedates religion. Contrary to the customary blood-soaked view of nature,
Animals are not devoid of tendencies that we morally approve of, which suggests that morality is not as much of a human innovation as we like to think.
Just take the feeling of empathy, the ability to share feelings. That is not a homo sapiens prerogative. There are so many examples of this behavior among animals too.
A typical example is how chimpanzees console distressed parties, hugging and kissing them, which is so predictable that we have documented literally thousands of cases. Mammals are sensitive to each other’s emotions and react to those in need.
Why do you have a dog or a cat in the house and not a lizard or a turtle? Because you have the feeling that this pet "understands" you. responds to your feelings.
They give affection, they want affection, and they respond to our emotions the way we do to theirs.
The turtle digs a hole in the sand above the tide line, deposits her eggs and covers them, packing the sand tight with her rear flippers, and then leaves the nest behind.
The hatchlings emerge a few months later to rush to the ocean under the moonlight. They never get to know their mother.
Empathy requires awareness of the other and sensitivity to the other’s needs. It probably started with parental care, like that found in mammals, but there is also evidence for bird empathy.
One of the surest signs of a caring attitude, according to Paul MacLean, the American neuroscientist who named the limbic system the seat of emotions, is the “lost call” of young animals.
This specific relation to the parent is not a general characteristic of all organisms. Most reptiles, such as snakes, lizards, and turtles don't have it.
The bonobo, however, is another story. They are more gracefully built and have longer legs than any other ape. The species was put in the same genus, Pan, as the chimpanzee.
But the great difference is that chimps are really more prone to aggression and violence than bonobos.
We live in a time of increasing acceptance of our kinship with the apes. True, humanity never runs out of claims of what sets it apart, but it is a rare uniqueness claim that holds up for over a decade.
If we consider our species without letting ourselves be blinded by the technical advances of the last few millennia, we see a creature of flesh and blood with a brain
that, albeit three times larger than a chimpanzee’s, doesn’t contain any new parts.
Even our vaunted prefrontal cortex turns out to be of rather typical size compared with that of other primates.
No one doubts the superiority of our intellect, but we have no basic wants or needs that are not also present in our close relatives.
Just like us, monkeys and apes strive for power, enjoy sex, want security and affection, kill over territory, and value trust and cooperation.
Yes, we have computers and airplanes, but our psychological makeup remains that of a social primate.
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - Th Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
The Discussion
[13:14] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman.
[13:15] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): many similarities indeed
[13:15] herman Bergson: In other words,, some primates have the same feelings as we have
[13:15] Max Chatnoir: I had a friend visiting me once. While she was there she got a phone call to inform her of the death of her mother. My cat, who had totally ignored her up to that time jumped up and got into her lap.
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ow!
[13:16] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): cats do try to help i time of crisis
[13:16] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa
[13:16] Max Chatnoir: I was pretty impressed!
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so we still have so much in commonwith the animal world
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a neighbor had a dog and as soon he was me he ran over to me for a cuddle.
[13:17] herman Bergson: We are part of that world Gemma :-)
[13:17] herman Bergson: Naked apes we are
[13:17] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:18] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still miss that doggie, and also the neighbours, we went out and played golf some times
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): only a step ahead in thinking too
[13:18] herman Bergson: that is the difference indeed
[13:18] herman Bergson: where and how we got that ability is a mystery still
[13:18] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:19] herman Bergson: But we have to deal with it
[13:19] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:20] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and I don't think space exploration will give us an answer to that
[13:20] herman Bergson: For me at the moment is how mankind handles death
[13:20] herman Bergson: no animal knows about death or dieing....we do...
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Elephants do
[13:21] herman Bergson: and we have developed all kinds of rituals to deny deayh
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): some birds are very close to knowing also
[13:21] herman Bergson: She is in heaven....she is still there..and so on
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bugt they do believe that
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): strongly
[13:21] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not just as ritual
[13:21] herman Bergson: True Beertje...elephants have a really special mind
[13:22] herman Bergson: This makes the question about the source of morality only more interesting
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: contributes to the survival of the group?
[13:23] herman Bergson: Especially when you take into account that morality really MUST have preceded religion
[13:23] herman Bergson: sure Max
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as instinct maybe???
[13:24] herman Bergson: This is why I love atheism.....
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: Yes, I think social traditions must have been incorporated into religion as they developed.
[13:24] herman Bergson: it is such a bunch of nonsense :-))
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): agree Max
[13:25] herman Bergson: Atheism is only a debate withina culture that has adopted some kind of religion...in our case Christianity
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa same here
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: But I've heard people say that if they didn't think that God (kind of like Santa Claus) was monitoring their behavior, they would feel not need to behave well.
[13:26] herman Bergson: But morality was there before christianity....so
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes MAx.....
[13:26] herman Bergson: as I said in the previous lecture....
[13:27] herman Bergson: It is really strange that there has to be sone God between me and bestial behavior
[13:27] herman Bergson: absurd...
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: Yes, that is discouraging.
[13:28] herman Bergson: It means, you need some OUTSIDE force to behave decently....isnt that ridiculous
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to me religion is 2 things, 1: a way to oppress basic and pleasant things like sex and happiness by labeling them as sins and 2. a reason to go to war against other religions and blow each other to pieces
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): not a good thing if you ask me
[13:28] herman Bergson: lol...you are good Bejiita :-))
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im an atheist and also a nice guy
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and i believe in science
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and facts
[13:29] Max Chatnoir: Yay, Bejiita!
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and friendship
[13:29] herman Bergson: I am not even an atheist....
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:29] herman Bergson: for calling yourself an atheist means that you assume there is some theistic metaphysics
[13:29] herman Bergson: I am just me :-))
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same here
[13:30] herman Bergson: And the rest of the world may think as they like :_)
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well by defining as a materialist the same
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): is the same
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): just from a different direction
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or definition
[13:31] herman Bergson: Defining yourself as a materialist/physicalist has its implications indeed Gemma
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:31] herman Bergson: But it does not imply that the word god or the like is part of your vocubulary
[13:32] herman Bergson: That word is invented by others
[13:32] herman Bergson: And I have to deal wit it and its cultural consequences
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I wonder how the bonobo females keep all in order
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i hear they are in charge
[13:34] herman Bergson: They are the ones who do, Gemma....matriarchal dominance
[13:35] Max Chatnoir: They seem to be. I think the son of the alpha female is the closest they get to an alpha male.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Among chimps it is a patriarchal dominance....interesting difference
[13:35] Max Chatnoir: I often wonder if we had branched off the bonobos instead of off the chimps, how we would be different.
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and of course the bonobos are more gentle
[13:35] herman Bergson: We are a kind of mix of the two species, it seems
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: It's kind of like we evolved too soon!
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but their dna is 90 percent of ours Max
[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes they are....solve conflicts with sex :-)
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: More than that.
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): think they are closer to our ancestors
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:36] herman Bergson: I'd say so too :-)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): mybee
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): somehow men of our species got ahead of us
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tsk
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in most cultures that is
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: chimpy!
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:37] herman Bergson: I agree...men are apes in their behavior :-))
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and teh teen years are so so important
[13:38] herman Bergson: OK....not all men :-)
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and that is why
[13:39] herman Bergson: Well...guess we dealt with everything again....
[13:39] herman Bergson: we all may go back to our zoo :-)
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:40] herman Bergson: Thank you all gain
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: We do try to use our minds to make some decisions. :-)
[[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed......
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): interesting again:))
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have a good weekend all
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes you too!
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman!
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): happy weekend yes
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
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