After all the information on Karl Marx, socialism, and corporations like Mondragon, you would almost forget that there is still a completely other world of economic theory.
I realised this when I started reading "Theory of Political Economy", published in 1871 by William Stanley Jevons, born in Liverpool, UK. (1835 - 1882)
His early education was in mathematics and chemistry, but his return to England saw him broaden his studies to include logic and economics.
He was a contemporary of Karl Marx and all the revolutionary turmoil in Europe, but he is telling a completely different story.
His words: -Quote -"The science of Political Economy rests upon a few notions of an apparently simple character.
Utility, wealth, value, commodity, labour, land, capital, are the elements of the subject; (...)
Repeated reflection and inquiry have led me to the somewhat novel opinion that value depends entirely upon utility.
Prevailing opinions make labour rather than utility the origin of value; and there are even those who distinctly assert that labour is the cause of value. " - End quote -
I found this a remarkable point of view, as we learned from Marx, that labour is the agent that creates value. Let's continue listening to Jevons
- Quote -"I show, on the contrary, that we have only to trace out carefully the natural laws of the variation of utility,
as depending upon the quantity of commodity in our possession, in order to arrive at a satisfactory theory of exchange, of which the ordinary laws of supply and demand are a necessary consequence.
This theory is in harmony with facts, and, whenever there is any apparent reason for the belief that labour is the cause of value, we obtain an explanation of the reason.
Labour is often found to determine value, but only in an indirect manner, by varying the degree of utility of the commodity through an increase or limitation of the supply." - End quote
Jevons wants to build upon Bentham’s calculus of pleasure and pain and to center this “new” economics on the principle of marginal utility, called “final degree of utility” by Jevons.
Imagine you’re thirsty. The first glass of water has high utility; the fifth glass has much less. That’s marginal utility, and that, for Jevons, determines value, not the labor to fetch the water.
And there is more. According to Jevons: "Economics, if it is to be a science at all, must be a mathematical science.
There exists much prejudice against attempts to introduce the methods and language of mathematics into any branch of the moral sciences.
Many persons seem to think that the physical sciences form the proper sphere of mathematical method, and that the moral sciences demand some other method..."
This last remark is really interesting: Economics should be mathematical and thus different from the moral sciences.
Does turning economics into a mathematical science remove moral judgment? Jevons didn’t say yes, but later economists would draw that conclusion.
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
of Economic Thought (2012)
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
The Discussion
[13:16] Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Herman.
[13:17] herman Bergson: This was perhaps a somewhat difficult lecture....
[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:17] Max Chatnoir: I think that the moral side of math arises because the value assigned is a consequence of human behavior.
[13:17] herman Bergson: But the main points are.... not labour but utility creates value
[13:17] Stranger Nightfire: I think we need to delve much deeper into the definitions of both value and utility
[13:18] Max Chatnoir: Of economics, not of math per se.
[13:18] Stranger Nightfire: I am thinking about things like what makes a painting that can be proven to have come from the brush of Pablo Picasso valuable
[13:18] herman Bergson: I will in the next lecture Stranger...Jevons follows Bentham's ideas
[13:18] Stranger Nightfire: or what makes a Cabbage Patch doll or a Pet Rock valuable
[13:19] Stranger Nightfire: What makes Shania Twain the extremely wealthy woman that she is
[13:19] herman Bergson: I see...Stranger...that has always been a mysterry to me...
[13:19] herman Bergson: Isn't she a singer?
[13:20] Stranger Nightfire: Yes she is
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:20] Stranger Nightfire: The most commercially successful one around these days
[13:20] herman Bergson: There is indeed a difference between the value of a produced commodity and the value of a painting of a performance
[13:21] herman Bergson: I think that the concept of value in these cases is a culturally defined one
[13:21] Max Chatnoir: Yes. One of them might keep you alive, and the other is a cultural value.
[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha
[13:22] herman Bergson: Production of commodities is an economic matter...a Picasso painting isn't
[13:22] Stranger Nightfire: What gives hydrogen bombs their value?
[13:22] Stranger Nightfire: Or I might say their utility?
[13:23] herman Bergson: What are they used for....their utility gives them their value?
[13:23] herman Bergson: You mean nuclear bombs, Stranger?
[13:23] Stranger Nightfire: They're very useful for annihilating millions of people in an instant if that is a valuable thing to do
[13:23] Max Chatnoir: Destructive objects are in an odd category.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or bombs and missiles in general, i read somewhere that one single one of these death machines costs like 100 million dollars ad they rain them like confetti over places like Iran now
[13:24] Stranger Nightfire: Yes nuclear weapons
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because whe it comes to killing people there is o limit cost wise it seems :(
[13:24] Stranger Nightfire: Our civilization seems to value them very highly
[13:25] Stranger Nightfire: I for one find their utility rather questionable
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but what gives stuff value in general?
[13:25] herman Bergson: Their value is in the power of killing as many people as possible, and nuclear bombs derive their power from deterrence
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmmm its quite weird
[13:25] Max Chatnoir: Because their destruction doesn't end with the explosion.
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a paradox or what u would call it
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): paradox
[13:26] herman Bergson: Human culture likes power
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it seems so
[13:26] herman Bergson: We still live in a WE / THEM world and we want power over THEM
[13:26] Stranger Nightfire: I'm not sure who invented the concept but I learned it from Robert Anton Wilson that we need and our vocabulary another word to go alongside wealth, That word would be illth
[13:27] Stranger Nightfire: Much of what we produce and value does not actually contribute to the well being of humans but to their destruction
[13:27] herman Bergson: illth?
[13:27] Max Chatnoir: you mean ill-gotten gains?
[13:27] Stranger Nightfire: yes illth
[13:28] Stranger Nightfire: well-th versus ill-th
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i see
[13:28] herman Bergson: hmmm...but we are still living in a tribal world...
[13:28] herman Bergson: That is why we like destruction.....OF THE OTHERS
[13:28] Stranger Nightfire: Things like atomic bombs a dangerous pesticides and the like should not be considered wealth
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed true, junk food, fast fashion, stuff filled with toxins aimed for mass consumption and then thrown in the trash heaps
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): things like that
[13:29] herman Bergson: I don't think bombs are considered to be wealth...but power
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all for corporate profit
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): corporates profit from making bombs also
[13:30] Stranger Nightfire: We were talking about economic value and bombs certainly sell at a very high profit
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): different market, same goal
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all for profit
[13:30] herman Bergson: yes, because a government orders them because of their utility in combat
[13:31] herman Bergson: So that creates wealth for the producer
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:32] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i dont like destruction.....OF THE OTHERS
[13:32] herman Bergson: and power for the government
[13:32] herman Bergson: It is even in the ten commandments Bergie..thou shalt not kill
[13:33] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ok
[13:33] herman Bergson: However, we humans have invented the word UNLESS
[13:33] herman Bergson: whether you like it or not
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: Hey, I didn't kill the victim, I just sold the killer a gun....
[13:33] Stranger Nightfire: Right now Trump and the Pope arguing over what makes a just war
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): always exceptions
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ssss
[13:34] herman Bergson: I stopped spending time on news about Trump
[13:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: with or without God and his commandments... i hate wars
[13:34] herman Bergson: I simply wait till he is gone
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: going to be a long wait...
[13:35] herman Bergson: I guess we all do Bergie...but what to do when you have to defend yourself?
[13:35] herman Bergson: I know Max :-(
[13:35] bergfrau Apfelbaum: wow Herman congratulations!! @ Trump-info-break
[13:35] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[13:35] bergfrau Apfelbaum: he is an idiot .
[13:35] Max Chatnoir: Yes, that's a tough one.
[13:36] herman Bergson: But the main point of today is that value is created by the utility of a commodity and not, as Marx claim, by the labour to produce it
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm im also tired of it all, and I can't do anything about it so, I spent the afternoon building on my cool MYST game instead of doomscrolling
[13:37] Max Chatnoir: But the labor shouldn't be devalued.
[13:37] herman Bergson: I find it an interesting idea...worth another lecture
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): add it felt better indeed eve i know nothing has changed but at least im ot forc feedding my system with it
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): add I accomplished something nice instead even if it's just for myself at the moment
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: Yes, lots of room yet for discussion.
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): always
[13:39] Stranger Nightfire: I guess our current tech oligarchs would like what they set out to eliminate labor, completely human labor anyway
[13:39] herman Bergson: And a second thing is that Jevons claims that economics is mathematical....
[13:39] Stranger Nightfire: would like jevons that is
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:40] herman Bergson: But that makes no sense Stranger....eliminating all human labor from production processes....
[13:41] herman Bergson: What is the purpose of such a thing.....just profits in money for the owners of the means of production
[13:41] Max Chatnoir: Economics certainly has a mathematical component, but that doesn't remove it from the moral realm.
[13:41] herman Bergson: I agree, Max
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the CEOs don't think that way, they see employees just as a cost that needs to be eliminated with AI, they dont think further it seems, short-term profit
[13:42] herman Bergson: With the mathematics economics wants to look like physics with its absolute laws of nature....this is misleading
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at last it feels that way
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Yes, economics is not one of the "natural" sciences.
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): luckily i also see signs that it might not work, like fire every programmer and replace them with vibe coding - bugs bugs everywhere
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we can't know for now but i feel i know what the CEOS add shareholders are thinking
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): weell seee
[13:45] herman Bergson: If you go back to the hunter-gatherer culture the main function of homo sapiens is to provide food for the tribe...
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): all we can do is wait i guess
[13:45] bergfrau Apfelbaum: The AI cannot build a stained glass window 🙃
[13:45] herman Bergson: and in fact this is still the case...by working for a wage we obtain the means to gather food for our family....
[13:46] Stranger Nightfire: I remember the capitalist businessman in Kurt Vonnegut's novel Cats Cradle about whom Vonnegut said In many ways, he was a sensible and decent man the only real problem with him was his firm belief that the purpose of man on earth was to make bicycles for him
[13:46] herman Bergson: so...in what way makes it sense to eliminate human labor?
[13:46] Stranger Nightfire: He had a bicycle factory
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: And last time I looked robots weren't free.
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it dont make sense but I say the CEOS havee no sense, they only see dollar signs as soon AI is mentioned believing they can get rid of all their workforce ad replace them with machines
[13:47] Stranger Nightfire: Indeed I think the anti-human philosophy of the oligarchs is ultimately self-defeating
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they dont think longer
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are bean counters
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): counters
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): short-term profit above everything
[13:49] Stranger Nightfire: Some of them will even openly say that they will be happy most of the Earth's population has been eliminated
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then they vaish with the money when it all goes to hell
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): vanish
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like Thiel
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (shudders)
[13:49] herman Bergson: Wealth makes arrogant
[13:49] herman Bergson: and non-empathic
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): seems so for sure, they believe everyone else not as rich as them to be worthless scum , thats the scary thig
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): whe they have so much power
[13:51] bergfrau Apfelbaum: where will they disappear to with their money? when there are no people left.... There will be no more four-star hotels
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): destroying wellfare ect for everyone else so they can cash in
[13:51] herman Bergson: Well..let this be all for today and see in the next lecture how utility creates value and economics becomes mathematical
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its stealing
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and worse
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it is what it is but...
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i wish it was different
[13:52] herman Bergson: So, unless you have to have that final say or remark.....
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you for the lecture Herman, very interesting
[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Thank you Herman and class!!
[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all again ....again we almost saved the world :-)
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: Good discussion!
[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Beergie, well i dont kow how they think
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or they dont realize it
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: See you all Thursday....
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok Max
[13:53] herman Bergson: You will, Max ㋡
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