Just listen to this: it is 1871, and the world is becoming industrialised, more rational and scientific. The belief had grown that reality in all its aspects is quantifiable
and science is based on working with quantities and calculating them. This may not have been the general view at that time, but in several sciences it was.
To be complete, Jevons, whom I introduced in the previous lecture, based his ideas on those of Jeremy Bentham (1748 -1832), but I have lectured on him before.
So let's focus on Jevons's reasoning. He says about economics: "To me it seems that our science must be mathematical, simply because it deals with quantities.
Wherever the things treated are capable of being greater or less, there the laws and relations must be mathematical in nature.
The ordinary laws of supply and demand treat entirely of quantities of commodity demanded or supplied,
and express the manner in which the quantities vary in connection with the price. In consequence of this fact, the laws are mathematical."
In the next lecture, I'll show you how he relates these ideas to his theory of marginal utility, which I mentioned in the previous lecture.
Keep in mind that we are still trying to understand current capitalism and, therefore, the way our governments, but also we as consumers, interpret the "laws" of economics.
And I really get the feeling that it is here in this way of thinking that current capitalism is becoming mature,
which means that capitalism seems as predictable as physics. Prices, wages, and even happiness became numbers to be optimized.
This simple quote of Jevons from his "The Theory of Political Economy" (1871) is creating the foundation of how we treat economics these days.
He simply claims that economics deals with quantities and therefore MUST be mathematical, and that is it. Simple as that: a matter of supply and demand.
He takes it one step further and says, "Pleasure and pain are undoubtedly the ultimate objects of the Calculus of Economics."
And why? Simple, because pain and pleasure can be quantified, according to Bentham and Jevons. In the next lecture, I'll explain how to do that.
Thank you for your attention... the floor is yours
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
of Economic Thought (2012)
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
The Discussion
[13:20] Max Chatnoir: Thank you Herman.
[13:20] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:20] cat (sapphira.franizzi): thankies herman
[13:20] herman Bergson: " sounds like nonsense to me." I had to fight that feeling too, Cat :-)
[13:20] cat (sapphira.franizzi): is this where we share our thoughts?
[13:20] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aha
[13:20] Max Chatnoir: Is the pain and pleasure that of the consumer only? Or is production also factored in?
[13:21] herman Bergson: But it happened...these ideas got a scientific public
[13:21] cat (sapphira.franizzi): i hate the idea that (some people think) everything can be reduced to math
[13:21] Stranger Nightfire: There are some mathematicians who make the claim that the universe IS math
[13:21] cat (sapphira.franizzi): or explained by it
[13:21] Stranger Nightfire: That the entire nature of reality is mathematical
[13:22] herman Bergson: @Max...the concepts of pain and pleasure are interpreted in a general way...
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: But economics has a significant social aspect, so you can't just treat it as a natural science.
[13:22] cat (sapphira.franizzi): but in reality, that just gets stolen by businessmen who treat people as numbers and data points
[13:22] herman Bergson: Well, you hit one of the greatest mysteries to me.....
[13:22] cat (sapphira.franizzi): Kant - people are the end, never the means to one
[13:23] herman Bergson: the fact that there is a relation between the product of our brain, Math, and reality...I still don't understand it
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Well, math is the language of nature I also say
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because EVERYTHING more or less can be described with it
[13:23] cat (sapphira.franizzi): and how on earth can pain and pleasure be quantified, I need to read up on it
[13:23] herman Bergson: Interesting point Cat, but I guess today it is the other way around in economics
[13:24] cat (sapphira.franizzi): meoowwww~
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): emothions i say can be one of these things that are hard to put numbers and formulas on
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: But is there a "right" equation for determining the price of a product or for calculating fair wages?
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): emotions
[13:24] herman Bergson: we as individuals are a source of income for corporations and state, or we are a cost for them
[13:24] cat (sapphira.franizzi): "People are meant to be loved and objects to be used. The world is screwed up because we got it backwards."
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm that is true
[13:25] cat (sapphira.franizzi): I also read something which I thought was very meaningful
[13:25] herman Bergson: Difficult question Max....
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): now we use people and love objects
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:25] cat (sapphira.franizzi): in the past, life was cheap and luxuries were expensive. Today, luxuries are cheap but life is expensive
[13:25] herman Bergson: because we have to define FAIRNESS first to answer it
[13:26] cat (sapphira.franizzi): in the past, a computer was several thousand dollars, in 1980s money
[13:26] Max Chatnoir: fairness may need to be negotiated.
[13:26] cat (sapphira.franizzi): now luxuries like tech are affordable but mortgages, rent, healthcare etc kill people
[13:26] herman Bergson: They cost a fortune in those days
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aah
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:27] herman Bergson: Makes me think of last Tuesday....and the remark...did they take out morality out of economic thought...
[13:27] herman Bergson: and the answer today is YES in my opinion
[13:27] Stranger Nightfire: Wish I could remember or find the exact quote but in his novel Cat's Cradle Kurt Vonnegut was talking about a businessman who he described as being a rather nice guy pleasant and enjoyable to talk to instead, the only real problem with him was his complete conviction that the purpose of human life on earth was to make bicycles for him
[13:27] cat (sapphira.franizzi): they 100% effin did, is my instinct
[13:28] Stranger Nightfire: for his bicycle factory
[13:28] cat (sapphira.franizzi): what I said about Kant, whos means-end stuff really inspires me
[13:28] cat (sapphira.franizzi): People for whom only money is the end goal inspire a lot of revulsion in me
[13:28] herman Bergson: As you know, Stranger...the purpose of life is 42 ㋡
[13:28] cat (sapphira.franizzi): I have a friend who's like that. just a businessperson
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that sounds about how the rich ones think of people today also indeed, Strangeer
[13:29] cat (sapphira.franizzi): only interested in making money, whatever the means
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:29] herman Bergson: that is not exceptional these days Cat
[13:29] cat (sapphira.franizzi): for a normal person, you're a teacher or a policeman or an astronaut or whatever
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its insane
[13:30] cat (sapphira.franizzi): the end is for the betterment of mankind
[13:30] cat (sapphira.franizzi): and money is just the means
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as I said before in the USA especially your human value is based of your wallet size
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: Well, I guess we all want to get paid for our work, but how to calculate what is reasonable?
[13:30] herman Bergson: Back to the issue at hand....
[13:30] Max Chatnoir: ?
[13:30] herman Bergson: The idea that you can quantify pain and pleasure and
[13:30] cat (sapphira.franizzi): not just in USA, lots of places around the world
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Max
[13:30] herman Bergson: as Jevons added on utility
[13:31] Max Chatnoir: I mean, I really loved teaching, but I couldn't do it for free.
[13:31] cat (sapphira.franizzi): you could if you have millions and can live on investment dividends, for example
[13:31] herman Bergson: If you had done that you would have starved and not taught anymore, Max
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but very few can do that
[13:32] herman Bergson: I am teaching for free here :-)
[13:32] cat (sapphira.franizzi): meow~
[13:32] cat (sapphira.franizzi): herman is good to us
[13:32] herman Bergson: and I still have food on the table :-)
[13:32] Max Chatnoir: True, you are!
[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you get love from us:)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:32] cat (sapphira.franizzi): but you're not spending 8 hours a day teaching for free
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and bread in the oven!
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:33] herman Bergson: True, Beertje, and it tastes better than potatoes
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:34] herman Bergson: But really, I love to tell you about this (nonsensical) idea of quantifying pain and pleasure next Tuesday.
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: All right!
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa speaking of bread and potatoes, combine them = mashed potato in the dough, its yummy
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a tip
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:34] herman Bergson: I know that recipe, Bejiita :-)
[13:34] cat (sapphira.franizzi): *~* hiss *~*
[13:35] herman Bergson: add an egg too
[13:35] cat (sapphira.franizzi): let's see people try to reduce everything to math
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa ok ㋡
[13:35] cat (sapphira.franizzi): *miiiiiow~~*
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep
[13:35] cat (sapphira.franizzi): sounds a little like Spanish omelette
[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes, math is a mystery, like there are more....
[13:36] herman Bergson: then add some union and garlic too , Cat :-)
[13:36] cat (sapphira.franizzi): in one of Dan Brown's novels
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it works, the reason computers work and can do everything from graphics to sound to control in general is all it does can be described mathematically
[13:36] cat (sapphira.franizzi): A scientist was trying to mathematically prove that God exists
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): colors sound ect
[13:36] Max Chatnoir: There is a Math Club in SL. Right now we are reading "Humble Pi"
[13:37] cat (sapphira.franizzi): yes, but humanity isn't formulaic
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats true
[13:37] herman Bergson: no, we are here only accidentally
[13:38] herman Bergson: But I still like it ㋡
[13:38] cat (sapphira.franizzi): you know the reason why AI cannot create great art/music
[13:38] cat (sapphira.franizzi): because it tries to match human emotions
[13:38] Max Chatnoir: No imagination?
[13:39] herman Bergson: It has no originality
[13:39] cat (sapphira.franizzi): as well as doesn't have what it takes to create something new
[13:39] cat (sapphira.franizzi): but yeah it basically assigns values to what it thinks humans prize highly
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): because AI cant create, it is like a kitchen blender, it only mashes together what is put into it = everything we have made before AI scraped of the entire internet into the AI
[13:39] Max Chatnoir: Yes. The database it's trained in is stuff that is already here.
[13:39] herman Bergson: Oh...I'll ask AI how to quantify pain and pleasure....that must be fun!
[13:39] cat (sapphira.franizzi): i wanna take that as an argument that you can't math human emotions.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): add when AI start to feed on its own creation, the result is total garbage
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: That sounds reasonable, Cat.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true cat
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): emotions cant be described that way
[13:41] cat (sapphira.franizzi): it's like someone who claims they know their partner 100% well
[13:41] cat (sapphira.franizzi): do you really.
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well, at least I have one emotion now...
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): add this is one of the reasons why a computer can not and will never ever be able to feel
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its just a machine
[13:41] herman Bergson: we are off topic :-)))
[13:41] cat (sapphira.franizzi): you may think she likes something but maybe she's just putting up with you
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): as usual:)
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: Everybody hears or thinks music from their own experience.
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it can simulate feelings maybe but thats all
[13:42] Herman Bergson: Yes, Beertje.... ㋡
[13:42] cat (sapphira.franizzi): are we off topic though? aren't we talking about mathing pain and pleasure?
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: A bit off :-)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as it shouldd be
[13:42] herman Bergson whispers: ok...back to the future :-)
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:42] cat (sapphira.franizzi): meow~
[13:43] herman Bergson: Anyway... next Tuesday I hope to show you how Jevons thought to quantify emotions of pain and pleasure
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: That should be interesting!
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaah ㋡
[13:43] cat (sapphira.franizzi): what time next tues?
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: 1 PM SLT
[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes, Max and I'll do some reading on it
[13:44] herman Bergson: always 1 PM SL time
[13:44] herman Bergson: every Tuesday and Thursday
[13:44] cat (sapphira.franizzi): Ooh...
[13:44] herman Bergson: since 2007
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: Oh, there is a blog, too.
[13:45] herman Bergson: yes
[13:45] herman Bergson: Check my profile for a link
[13:46] herman Bergson: I thank you all for this amusing discussion and wish you a pleasant and painless weekend
[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaaa ys
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:46] Max Chatnoir: http://thephilosophyclass.blogspot.com
[13:46] cat (sapphira.franizzi): meow~
[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Happy weekend! ty Herman and class
[13:46] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:46] herman Bergson: I'll bring it up to date tomorrow, Max
[13:46] cat (sapphira.franizzi): thankies for the class and discussion =3
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: Thanks for putting it in your profile, Herman. See you all next week!
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we do
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:47] herman Bergson: Ohh...and now the light problem...
[13:47] Max Chatnoir: Have you solved it?
[13:48] herman Bergson: No, just working on it
[13:48] cat (sapphira.franizzi): putting things as full bright doesn't create a light source
[13:48] cat (sapphira.franizzi): so full bright walls and floor still have dark chairs and hoomans
[13:49] cat (sapphira.franizzi): and the fake hoomans look full bright too
[13:49] herman Bergson: I found something....
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lighting in SL?
[13:49] herman Bergson: It may be the Sky setting in the QUick Preferences in the Firestorm viewer
[13:50] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ahh! ty for the info
[13:50] cat (sapphira.franizzi): anyways, off for naps
[13:50] cat (sapphira.franizzi): cya around =3
[13:50] herman Bergson: Midday 1 is an improvement
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu Cat
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:51] herman Bergson: See you, Cat ㋡
[13:51] cat (sapphira.franizzi): puRrrRrRrrrrRrr
[13:51] Max Chatnoir: See you all soon.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): u to MMax
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i need to go, thank you for the lecture
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki Beertje
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): happy weekend on u
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): houdoe wonnie
[13:52] Lukkie Sands: Was fun today :-)
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs ㋡
[13:52] Lukkie Sands: Bye all
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes a good one
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hugs Lukkie
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: and now cards or turtles?
[13:53] bergfrau Apfelbaum: :-)
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im on for that
[13:54] herman Bergson: Ok...follow me
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