568: The proof of the existence of god

Since the early days of homo sapiens we find examples of culture. The Oxford Dictionaries define the concept like this:

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“The arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively” and

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“The ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society”

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Take music. All humans create it. We have serious debates about the concept of “beauty” 

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and what makes something a work of Art. The artists are sometimes adored as idols.

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This is how our brain works, but you could ask the question “Why do we do that?” I have only one explanation: our brain is a stimuli addict.

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When you deprive the brain and central nervous system of stimuli, we go crazy. If you offer constantly the same stimuli we get bored and eventually crazy again.

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This might be an explanation why the organism, called homo sapiens, creates culture. And one of his creations is religion.

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However, the arts and religion are not treated in the same way. We sometimes have the feeling that an artist seems to be in touch with a transcendental something called Beauty, which he brings back to earth level.

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The priest and imams appear to have a similar role in the cultural phenomenon, called religion. They bring god to earth level.

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Here the philosophical issues start. We love to talk about beauty, but in fact, when we see a beautiful painting,

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what we say is that beauty is a property of this painting and we try to define this property. But in case of religion we get a completely different debate.

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Religion claims the existence of something, it calls god. Like we are easily inclined to imagine that it is Beauty, that touches the painting or the music,

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likewise we seem to be inclined to believe that we are “touched”, “guided” by this god. When you look at the figures behind me, they show that a lot of people believe this.

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Does beauty exist? Oh yes! Of course we may seriously disagree whether compositions of Stockhausen are beautiful or not, but we we all believe it exists.

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Does god exist? I am sorry, the believers say, that is not debatable. He (She/It) exists. I can listen to music and experience beauty. It just happens.

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But what should I do to have a similar experience regarding this god idea. I guess one answer would be…just look at the beauty of nature. Someone  MUST have created it.

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And here we enter the fist battle zone: necessity. It is commonly accepted that there are two sorts of existent entities: those that exist but could have failed to exist, 

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and those that could not have failed to exist. Entities of the first sort are contingent beings; entities of the second sort are necessary beings.

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There are various entities which, if they exist, would be candidates for necessary beings: God, propositions, relations, properties, states of affairs, possible worlds, and numbers, among others. 

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Note that the first entity in this list is a concrete entity, while the rest are abstract entities.

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Many interesting philosophical questions arise when one inquires about necessary beings: What makes it the case that they exist necessarily? Is there a grounding for their necessary existence? 

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To say that this god is just a coincidence…no way! It would make the whole universe just a coincidence and it seems that this observation destroys the meaning of life.

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So he has to be necessary and without a beginning or end. Don’t ask me what this means. It is our brain that invents these ideas.

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Not mine, but other people’s brains and they are even willing to murder for it…….

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Thank you for your attention…the floor is yours..^_^

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The Discussion

Max Chatnoir: So why is God concrete and not abstract?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no one says that

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i don’t think

Bejiita Imako: because he is describes as a being of some sort i guess

herman Bergson: no no....god can not be abstract like a number is abstract

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but not concrete

Bejiita Imako: or a property

herman Bergson: if that were so he would be only a product of our brain

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Mmmm a deity can be abstract, or a collection of ideas that form a religion

herman Bergson: That idea of god as a property is interesting Bejiita....

Loo Zeta-Ah  mumbles something about Spinoza

Max Chatnoir: or contingent?

herman Bergson: Spinoza thought about it in that way

Bejiita Imako: hmm might be

Bejiita Imako: ok

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): lol

herman Bergson: you are right Loo :-))

Barby Seda: the existence of god is based on faith and believe

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Did we say Spinoza simultaneously?

Bejiita Imako: interesting concept indeed

herman Bergson: But what does this property add to reality....

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Sorry  have him up to the ear balls, my son is writing him for a thesis

herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll discuss 'existence'

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): spinoza??

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): yep

Bejiita Imako: ok

herman Bergson: and the question...is existence a property...

Max Chatnoir: That will be interesting, especially here!

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): mmm metaphysical or virtual or projected identity of self?

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): the question is, what is existence?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it always was

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ;-)

herman Bergson: indeed Daruma....

Max Chatnoir: To be or not to be, that is the question.

herman Bergson: what do I say more in the tomato is red.....and

herman Bergson: the tomato is red and exists

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Not after it is eaten

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there are other colors of tomatoes

herman Bergson: Teh tomato willl still be red Loo

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): It then becomes us

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): where does it exist? when I read also science magacines I get totally confused about where I am - what I am - and why I am.

Bejiita Imako: the tomato is concrete and an object, red is abstract and a property that is linked to the concrete tomato

Bejiita Imako: to make it look red

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): perhaps I am a tomato...

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Yuck very indigestable concrete tomatoes

Bejiita Imako: taste is another property

Max Chatnoir: If you take away all of the properties, don't you take a way the tomato?

Bejiita Imako: hahaha concrete as in an object

Bejiita Imako: not building material

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): 。◕‿÷ 。

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: The point is that 'red' IS a property of the tomato....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we are ripping at the next topic

herman Bergson: but what is 'exist'?

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): so sorry

Bejiita Imako: but without the tomato the property would not exixt

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja herman. Things can exist in many ways

herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita

Max Chatnoir: Ah, so the redness is contingent on the tomato.

Bejiita Imako: ah

Max Chatnoir: at least the tomato's redness.

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): Virtual, physical, only in our minds....

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): It was once green

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): soem are yellow too

Bejiita Imako: yes

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): yep

Bejiita Imako: and both ate still tomatoes

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does god have a color?

Bejiita Imako: are

bergfrau Apfelbaum: i think that one of God, or something else, believe because it helps if we have troubles.... it can help a glass of wine... or good sex, or any god in our head

bergfrau Apfelbaum: i think did one of God, or something else, believe: because it helps if we have troubles .... it can help a glass of wine ... or good sex, or any god in our head

bergfrau Apfelbaum:  ☆*¨¨**''* Cheers *''**¨¨*☆

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): spirit don’t usually have color

Barby Seda: the tomato derives from seeds

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): god must have any colour cos he is a believe of nearly anyone in the world.

herman Bergson: That is the big problem Beertje...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no color

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Mmm spirit can be coloured

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): And I mean in this way god as a word for any believe

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah so there is belief in spirits

herman Bergson: Is it an object that can have properties...

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): <---- alternative="" going="" here="" p="">

Bejiita Imako: yes but the spirit itself is always colorless

Bejiita Imako: the ethanol itself

herman Bergson: the theologians believe so....

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ok bejita

Bejiita Imako: the color come from other substances mixed with it

herman Bergson: he is benevolent, omnipotent eternal and so on...

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Reflection of something on it?

Barby Seda: the colors and other attributes derive from the seeds

herman Bergson: only existing entities can have properties

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Or 'She'

Bejiita Imako: true

herman Bergson: Yes Loo....another problem..HE She or It

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): why would sex be involved

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but when he or she has a color then god must exist

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): at all

herman Bergson: but what sense does it make for a god in the Judaic tradition to be a he or a she...?

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Exactly... God 'IS'

herman Bergson: If he is a he...can he have a wife too?

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): no sexual identity

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe he has:)))

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Well is there sex in heaven?

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i hope so Loo:))))

herman Bergson: would be heavenly sex :-))

Bejiita Imako: indeed

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): overpopulation could be a problem in eternity

Bejiita Imako: good sex is nice thats true

herman Bergson: But I don’t need god for that Bejiita ^_^

herman Bergson: only a goddess :-)))

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): lol

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

Bejiita Imako: no but i guess its all about getting stimuli of some sort weather ses or believe in god even they are totally different

Bejiita Imako: the brain chases stimuli

herman Bergson: To get back to the issue here....

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Unless you are a Buddhist and you seek nothingness

herman Bergson: I really do not understand why people conclude that god necessarily has to exist...

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): me neither

bergfrau Apfelbaum: -II-

herman Bergson: That is whatI love about buhddism...it is totally uninterested in any god at all

Bejiita Imako: its mind boggling indeed especially for me who don’t believe in any god

Bejiita Imako: want some proof first

Bejiita Imako: before i believe

herman Bergson: yes Bejiita....I understand

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): a long story, but the christians needed something to keep the people small.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and those who do believe cannot imagine why those who dont .. dont

Bejiita Imako: true

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I asked God for proof once...... ermm that is another story some other time

Bejiita Imako: heheh

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): but thats another< story

herman Bergson: that is the point Gemma...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): So in asking God for proof, I was acknowledging existence

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): looks at bangladesh in amazement

Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): less than 1% don t believe

Bejiita Imako: almost all believe in god

herman Bergson: But I still do not understand where this idea of a supernatural being comes from...unless it is a by product of our mental development since childhood

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Otherwise I would be talking to .....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I think it has to do with control

Bejiita Imako: thats the only logical thing, people who have not stopped believing in santa claus already somewhat

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): That we cannot control we put down to another being in control

herman Bergson: oh yes Loo....the god idea has been used to control whole nations....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): stil is

herman Bergson: look at IS!

Bejiita Imako: nowadays seems mostly a means to control and opress people

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think we need someone to blame for disasters

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and to blame god is easy

Bejiita Imako: religion = power = bad thing

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta) nods

Bejiita Imako: bad combination

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Not always it is how it is managed

Barby Seda: However, look at Deistic beliefs

herman Bergson: No Beeertje.....for that is really the big question....

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Islam = peace

herman Bergson: Take an earthquake...

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Christian philosophy is peace

herman Bergson: if god did that he is the biggest asshole ever

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): yep

herman Bergson: so...here we have the problem of evil in this world....

Bejiita Imako: religion might be a good thing as start bt then the big leaders manipulate it just to gain control

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): take IS..who is the god that say shop the heads off?

Bejiita Imako: brainwashing

Bejiita Imako: for evil purposes

Bejiita Imako: thats whats happening now with is

Bejiita Imako: ans boko haram

Bejiita Imako: and

Barby Seda: Christians also killed people

herman Bergson: Well...one remark...a bit off topic....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is a huge distortion of the writings in the Koran

Bejiita Imako: true, but that was in the mid ages, but these guys STILL live in the mid ages even its 2015

Max Chatnoir: Sorry, I had to answer the door!

Bejiita Imako: sort of

herman Bergson: Why do we NEVER hear or read in the news who is supplying this IS movement....????

Max Chatnoir: and then chase the dog.  Reading the chat...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly because they are NOT educated

Bejiita Imako: true

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Ermmm they are often

Bejiita Imako: ok

Bejiita Imako: hmm

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): The person whom lived where i was born in Leeds and blew up the underground was a teacher

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): 07/07

herman Bergson: there are two Qurans....

Bejiita Imako: ee ok

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): They recruit disaffected individuals frustrated with their lot

Max Chatnoir: REally, two?

Barby Seda: just like there are 2 Christian Bibles

Bejiita Imako: ah

Max Chatnoir: Two bibles or two translations?

herman Bergson: one written in the period 612 -622....which is like christian evangelium...and one written in the period 622 -632

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or romantic enough to want to be in in a movement

herman Bergson: which is writtten by the Warrior Mohammed

Barby Seda: one who people choose to read, and the other which is ignored

Bejiita Imako: aaa now i get what u mean

Bejiita Imako: by 2 bibles, old and new testament

herman Bergson: so one half is human and mild...the second half is barbaric like IS

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): and like the dead sea scrolls called gnostic texts

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and the other gospels also

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not included in the bible

Bejiita Imako: aa

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I have been called a cyber gnostic by a well known theologian.... bring it on!!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Bejiita Imako: hhaahaha

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: wow...cyber gnostic....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): interesting

herman Bergson: what in the world might that be? :-)

Bejiita Imako: no ides

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Well it was NT Wright at a digital symposium in Durham Uni

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): he is stuck on gnosticism

Bejiita Imako: is that like Necronomicon?

Max Chatnoir: So which one is more commonly used?  Or were they combined?

Bejiita Imako: Chtullu and similar

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): and well thinks because I meet with people on line.. in preference ot local church

herman Bergson: I wonder what I should call myself....

herman Bergson: I see religion as a cultural product like music and art....

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): The interaction was shared on youtube, if anybody interested I will share the link

Bejiita Imako: ok

herman Bergson: you mean your birth as cyber gnostic Loo? :-)

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): Religion is a good tool to keep people under control.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): of course so is the military

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): It contains fear, hopes and the believe of healing

herman Bergson: Yes it is, Daruma...but that applies to any ideology...communism was too

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): true

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): religion makes no different^^^

Ciska Riverstone: economic systems as well

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): sorry

Barby Seda: or applied to capitalism

herman Bergson: VERY TRUE, Ciska!

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): its not more holy than other tools

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

Bejiita Imako: i guess so

Ciska Riverstone: not less either ;)

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): u must know the target group

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): thats all

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): others work for money

herman Bergson: well...I think....enough to think about for two days again :-))

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): other work for "holiness"

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): but in the end its money

herman Bergson: SO....thank you all again for your participation :-))

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): dank je well herman

herman Bergson whispers: Time to cool down our brains agian :-)

Bejiita Imako: nice Herman

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman, enough to think about again:)

Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Thanks

Bejiita Imako: hehe indeed

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): / me claps

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): as usual

herman Bergson: Class dismissed .....^_^

Bejiita Imako: cu thursday

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

567: The Watchmaker...

What always has fascinated me, is the photo of some prehistoric pottery, maybe a 10.000 or more years old.

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It was a simple pot and the maker had decorated it with a tiny  regular pattern around the upper edge.

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Why in the world would someone waste his time on doing that? It must be a by-product of our brain, the desire to make something more than just a pot.

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Like writing and reading is a by-product of our ability to use language and music is a by-product of our ability to recognize pitch and rhythm.

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Like our ability to imagine other minds can be a by-product of our self awareness and our empathic abilities.

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This might very well be the evolution of the brain in action finally resulting in our ability to imagine things.

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And as soon as we begin to contribute real existence to things we imagine, it is a small step to believing in supernatural existences.

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The first traces of ritualistic and religious behavior date back to more than 26.000 years ago and it has never left our culture since.

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Through the ages many gods have come and go,  but our imagination stayed as one of the abilities of the brain.

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And when you say that what you imagine really exists, we in our age of science want to see hard evidence for it.

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When we find this hard evidence, the case is closed and what we imagined (actually a hypothesis) becomes a fact.

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Now here comes this peculiar logic: when you find in nature something complex, it MUST have a maker, a designer.

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This inclination to attribute things we do not understand to an intelligence, that does understand the matter, is not new.

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You may remember that I quoted  Cicero (106 - 43 BC) in one of my previous lecture: “When you see a sundail or a waterclock, you see that it tells the time by design and not by chance. 

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How then can you imagine, that the universe as a whole is devoid of purpose and intelligence?” -end quote-

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So, the desire to find direct or indirect evidence for the existence of something supernatural, is as old as Rome itself.

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A more recent attempt was The Watchmaker Analogy. It was given by William Paley in his 1802 book “Natural Theology or Evidences of the Existence and Attributes of the Deity”:

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1.The complex inner workings of a watch necessitate an intelligent designer.

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2. As with a watch, the complexity of X (a particular organ or organism, the structure of the solar system, life, the universe, anything complex) necessitates a designer.

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Why do we necessarily have to conclude that there is a designer, when something is complex? I still do not understand this logic.

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In the 60s creationists revived the Watchmaker analogy and related to that a new concept emerged: Intelligent Design (ID).

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For ID the most notable disputes concern the evolution of living organisms, the idea of common descent, the geological history of the Earth, the formation of the solar system and the origin of the universe.

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The interesting thing about ID is that it hijacks science and uses it as arguments for its stance. Dozens of lawsuits there were in the US…and in the US only.

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Christian organizations tried to force public schools to teach Intelligent Design theory as alternative for Darwinian evolution theory.

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All cases were lost nevertheless. Educators, philosophers, and the scientific community have demonstrated that ID is a religious argument, 

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a form of creationism which lacks empirical support and offers no testable or tenable hypotheses. 

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Proponents argue that it is "an evidence-based scientific theory about life's origins" that challenges the methodological naturalism 

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inherent in modern science, while conceding that they have yet to produce a scientific theory and that is probably because they are not evidence-based but beliefs-based.

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Main questions stays: WHY want people so eagerly this creator story about our reality? By the way….who created the creator, where does he/she/it come from?

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Anyway, enough to think about…and you will have plenty of time for that. This Thursday I’ll leave for a vacation on Schiermonnikoog, the island, and I won’t be back before February 21 ^_^

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The floor is yours…:-))

The Discussion

herman Bergson: Thank you :-)

herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...feel free...

CB Axel: I can't help thinking that we do a very bad job in the US of teaching science.

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): I think

Corona Anatine: okies not totally on topic but the pattern on pots might be an aim to copy rope

CB Axel: It allows people to think that a book is evidence.

Door Deluxe Plus: Tarokaka Resident has just entered your land !

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Wait, lost my train of thought

herman Bergson: Well CB...that is a problem indeed....

herman Bergson: I wasn’t there 28.000 years ago when the early men started rituals...

herman Bergson: so how can I believe that....

Corona Anatine: on ID idea - the need to have id in complex thing is because t we learn that complex things tend to have intelligence

herman Bergson: I read a book indeed...but its authority was based on earcheological evidence

Max Chatnoir: Nice point, Corona.

Corona Anatine: it is a product of child development

Max Chatnoir: So something inanimate that looks complex had to have been formed by an intelligent creature.

Corona Anatine: that things with a will of their own are intelligent

Corona Anatine: yes

Max Chatnoir: A bird's nest or a termite mound.

herman Bergson: yes...for I don’t see any relation between complexity and intelligence....conscious intelligence corona

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Uh, to totally dismiss the validity of written record is to undermine the basis of all sorts of things

Corona Anatine: true btu you have wisdom beyond that of a child - many adult dont progress as far as you

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): While something being written down doesn't immediately give it a pass

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): It also doesn't mean that it's entirely without value

CB Axel: True, but the written record has to be based on evidence.

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Why?

herman Bergson: Oh no Kei-chan...

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Why does something have to be true for us to learn from it?

herman Bergson: on the contrary....

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): That's a flawed method of thinking

CB Axel: We can learn from myths. But that's not the problem.

Max Chatnoir: What a good question.

herman Bergson: Tons of scientific researches are stored in written documents....

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): The origins of man are a matter for science, not philosophy, to prove, disprove, or otherwise explain

herman Bergson: to begin with what Galileo, Kepler and Newton and einstein wrote for instance

herman Bergson: Philosophy is not concerned about the origin of man at all...

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Then why lecture on creationism, the clockmaker theory, and intelligent design?

herman Bergson: It is concerned with the validity of the theories that are formulated about this origin

Corona Anatine: [and if there was science in an ancient civilization - it could well be that we would not recognize it as such due to word meaning shifts

herman Bergson: Because this is an educational project Kei-chan.....

herman Bergson: to teach people about what theories are around....

herman Bergson: and to discuss their validity...

CB Axel: And about why some people believe one thing and why some believe something else?

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): The problem with those theories though is their attempt to explain through inference

herman Bergson: Indeed CB.....and the justification of such beliefs

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): They're creating a house of cards, theories upon theories, "Well if this, and this, and this, then this must be true"

Max Chatnoir: the curse of the scientific method.  :-)

herman Bergson: Oh yes Kei-chan...

Max Chatnoir: But the power of that method comes from the ability to make predictions that would falsify your hypothesis.

herman Bergson: Put two philosophers in a room to discuss the existence of god and you wont get no answer :-))

Mickorod Renard: and some are natural convincing people, but not nessesarily correct

herman Bergson: Take the Smart /Haldane discussion for instance...

Corona Anatine: wouild three of them acheive it ?

herman Bergson: They might end with voting, Corona ^_^

Corona Anatine: so the existence of god is a democratic concept then herman?

herman Bergson: But Kei-chan has a point that a lot of the debates are just verbal and use logic...

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): It's a construct

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): God exists in the same way that Odin or Zeus existed

herman Bergson: In that case Yes, Corona....but then too still a belief...not a fact

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Or any other deity

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): It exists to answer the questions without answers

Corona Anatine: for sure

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Because we need answers

herman Bergson: Yes Kei-chan....I can agree with that :-)

Corona Anatine: often tho they come up with the answers and then find quaetions to fit

Max Chatnoir: And maybe justification for answers that we cannot otherwise support.

herman Bergson: The only thing I'd like to question is this NEED for answers...

Scarre (scarre1648): but if we use a god as the answer to all our unsolved questions, how do we progress?

Corona Anatine: well the creationists answer that - they see life as pointless without a god to give their lives meaning

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): It's the human condition

herman Bergson: Yes Scarre indeed...we don’t need to because we ahve the answers...

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Humans need meaning

herman Bergson: but on the other hand...PROGRESS...to what?

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): And not everyone is strong enough to find it for themselves

Daniel Luchador: to a more complete understanding of the world

Corona Anatine: nor is there progress where religion is ascendant - history shows that

Max Chatnoir: rather the opposite.

herman Bergson: Yes I agree...but why can't we accept the facyt that our brain some things just can not know!

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Pretty judgmental to look down upon a culture for not making "progress"

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): So long as a culture is surviving, it's succeeding

Mickorod Renard: I think the human brain does indeed need answers..and that perhaps is due to storing experiences and knowledge..without knowing what it is it cannot be resolved and stays in a loop

herman Bergson: YEs Mickorod...

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Modern culture is so increasingly aimless and frivolous that we tend to forget that the challenge for humanity is simply to survive

herman Bergson: but take the simple question of the origin of the universe...:-)

Mickorod Renard: yes, far easier to say God created it

herman Bergson: It is our brain that perceives reality in time and space....

Corona Anatine: not sure your word 'increasingly ' is correct there kei

herman Bergson: but when we apply this to the universe we have to come up with a big bang story

herman Bergson: Well, Kei-chan....in the Arab world, in Ukraine....they know....there they try to survive

Corona Anatine: not totally true herman the 'big bang was the product of observation - a theoiry to fit the obersved data

herman Bergson: no Corona...it was the result of an inference based on observations

herman Bergson: it was deduced from observations

Corona Anatine: okies accepted -your definition is more accurate

Mickorod Renard: and it is still not conclusive

herman Bergson: no it isnt at all to me...

herman Bergson: pragmatically it may explain a lot withinits context...

herman Bergson: but as an answer to the question about the origin of the universe it is nada...nothing...no answer at all

Corona Anatine: oh its fairly conclusive -what tends to be disputed is whtehr it will expand forever or collapse back down again

Mickorod Renard: I also believe we allow ourselves to be convinced because we are limited in our ability to challenge

Corona Anatine: before the next expansion occurs

herman Bergson: So we need the Intelligent Designer, some people think

Max Chatnoir: Or maybe it just expands locally.

Max Chatnoir: But I don't see how a Designer helps.

herman Bergson: this expansion story is also weird....

herman Bergson: for all expands AWAY from EARTH,...

herman Bergson: in other words...

CB Axel: Well, I haven't heard anyone say what they think happened before the big bang. Was it a god?

herman Bergson: it looks like earth is the center of the universe

Max Chatnoir: Wouldn't it look the same from Mars?

herman Bergson: That is our brain CB....we think in time.....

Max Chatnoir: Or Alpha centauri?

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): CB, the theory is that the universe is expanding towards a point

Mickorod Renard: and maybe its just us getting smaller?

herman Bergson: so..what happened BEFORE the big bang indeed

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): after which it will begin to compress

herman Bergson: it looks like a rational question

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): If you're to go off that, then before the big bang, there was another universe

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): And after ours is gone, there'll be another

herman Bergson: Mickorod...are we shrinking???:-)

CB Axel: I thought the universe was expanding faster and faster.

Mickorod Renard: he he could be Herman

Sovot: Asking what happened "before" the Big Bang is a moot point in itself though, since if the Big Bang was truly the beginning of everything, that would also mean time

Sovot: You cannot have "before" if time does not exist

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): That's

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): dumb

herman Bergson: That only shifts the question to those other universes Kei-chan

Sovot: You're

Sovot: Dumb

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): No you

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Well, nobody can answer those questions

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Because they don't exist anymore

herman Bergson: Time exists in our minds...

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): And neither would any evidence

herman Bergson: we can not escape it

Corona Anatine: it would mean time and space for this expansion - but it might not have been the first ever

Sovot: The Big Bang came from one of the most densest singularities ever calculated and it is still not as dense as you kei

Corona Anatine: previous expansions are possible

Daniel Luchador: haha

Corona Anatine: but only as mathematical constructs

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Most densest

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): durr

Mickorod Renard: but to many folk,,when one had to work the fields for food etc..deep questions re the universe were best put in God

Corona Anatine: do we need ad hominem arguments Sovot

herman Bergson: Well at least beyond your personal responsability, Mickorod...yes

herman Bergson: I noticed Corona...

Sovot: All I'm saying is scientists could just observe Kei if they wanted to perform theoretical experiments on incredibly dense objects

herman Bergson: I'll let is pass as a humoristic remark Sovot...

Mickorod Renard: there is the thing re the falling tree in the forrest..I was thinking that perhaps the beginning was the beginning of human dna

Scarre (scarre1648): Sovot, come on now

Daniel Luchador: there was no beginning of human dna

Daniel Luchador: it's the same type of dna that monkeys have with a few extra bits

herman Bergson: I have no idea about that Daniel

herman Bergson: yes....it is

Mickorod Renard: nor me daniel..but I was making a sort of idea up

Corona Anatine: well in truth there was a beginning of human dNA- the mutation that cause the fusion of chromosome 2

Max Chatnoir: human DNA goes all the way back to the prokaryotes.

Mickorod Renard: ie..did the universe only become relevant due to our existence

Corona Anatine: no

herman Bergson: so far we are the only beings aware of the existence of the universe Mickorod

Corona Anatine: the universe has relevance to itself

Corona Anatine: it does not need or care we exist

Mickorod Renard: how do you know Corona?

herman Bergson: the universe just IS....nothing more, I would say

Daniel Luchador: how do you know that we are the only beings aware of the existence of the universe

Corona Anatine: because the universe exosted long before humans existed

herman Bergson: We don’t know Daniel....

Corona Anatine: and will long after we are extinct

Daniel Luchador: you wouldn't say a dog or a cat is aware of the universe?

herman Bergson: but we have no prove of any other self aware bing in the universe sofar...

Mickorod Renard: we are all made of star dust

herman Bergson: being

Max Chatnoir: You know the study about dogs facing north when they poop?   I don't know if that qualifies as awareness of the universe, but they are certainly sensing features of the earth.

Daniel Luchador: simply navigating your physical environment is being aware of the universe

herman Bergson: they may like many other animals sense the magnetivc field of the earth Max

Corona Anatine: even an ameoba is aware of the existence of the physical universe -in whater eevr level of awareness is applicable to amaoba

CB Axel: Are they aware or are they just reacting to the magnetic field or something?

herman Bergson: we have to be careful here....

Max Chatnoir: Well, that's the question.

Mickorod Renard: aware yes, but does it question for an answer?

Corona Anatine: no more or less than humans are

Max Chatnoir: what is "awareness"

herman Bergson: responding to input is not the same as being aware of something...

Corona Anatine: which is why i added the rider at the end

herman Bergson: the needle of my compass turns to the north....but that doesnt mean it is aware of the north

CB Axel: Are you sure? Have you asked it?

Corona Anatine: okies : ))

CB Axel: LOL

Max Chatnoir: But aren't we also responding to input when we try to look beyond what we can immediately see?

herman Bergson: Yes Max....we are responding to impulses from our brain, I would say

Daniel Luchador: actually i think you could say the compass is aware of the north, it doesn't have a brain but it has a mechanism to take input and come up with a correct output, which is what the brain does on a more complicated scale

Corona Anatine: a maget that is part of an organism is aware of the north

herman Bergson: why it creates these impulses is another story

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Oh man, that's

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): I don't know

Max Chatnoir: And we have these big brains that can imagine things, and remember things, and anticipate things.

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): I don't know about people making comparisons between the brain and machines

herman Bergson: That is a very broad definition of awareness Danial...makes it almost trivial

Gerael: there's programs already that are far better at mental tasks than people, like understanding legal text

Gerael: so it's not that much of a stretch to say the mind is a more complicated machine

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): There's a huge, HUGE gap of complexity between the human brain and a computer, for example

Mickorod Renard: what was the question again Herman?

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): And what's more, we're so unsure as to its exact functions

Corona Anatine: [currently]

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): How can we even say that machine thought and organic thought would operate on the same level

Daniel Luchador: yes but at the fundamental level it's just hooking up a network that calculates answers

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Maybe they come to conclusions in entirely different ways?

herman Bergson: Mickorod "responding to input is not the same as being aware of something..."

Max Chatnoir: machines can't grow new connections as they experience the world.

Max Chatnoir: At least I don't think they can.

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): And that's not to push the whole reason versus emotion argument, I mean on a functional level

Corona Anatine: that is a thing of current research

Mickorod Renard: :) thanks, although i was thinking of the first question after your lesson

herman Bergson: I guess we have to return to the topic of this lecture...:-)

herman Bergson looks at his watch

Corona Anatine: the difference between human and machine awareness is only really a difference in programming

herman Bergson: A lot of good remarks and observations has been presented by you tooday...

Corona Anatine: organism are preset to learn and respond to the outside world

herman Bergson: Enough to keep your mind working on it for a week I hope :-))

Corona Anatine: while IT is preset to calculate

Daniel Luchador: thank you for the class

herman Bergson: SO..thank you all for your participation...

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Ok, I'm out

Kei-chan (hanako.alchemi): Later, chumps

herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

Mickorod Renard: have a nice break Herman

CB Axel: Thank you, herman. Have a nice holiday.

Max Chatnoir: Yes, thanks, Herman.  It's always interesting.

herman Bergson: Thank you Mickorod

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Fijne vakantie Herman

Max Chatnoir: And have a good break.

Scarre (scarre1648): thank you for having us, Herman

herman Bergson: My pleasure Scarre

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can I carry your suitcase?

Max Chatnoir: :-)

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): want to go to Schier too:)

CB Axel: Good bye, everyone. See you next week.

Corona Anatine: no axel

Gerael: farewell

Max Chatnoir: I must get back to my fruit flies.

herman Bergson: Bye CB :-)

Corona Anatine: nohting happens next wek

Max Chatnoir: We're meeting thursday?  Or not.

Corona Anatine: this thursday yes

Max Chatnoir: But not next Tuesday until after the 21st?

Max Chatnoir: I'll adjust my calendar.  And my door.  :-)

Corona Anatine: was sure herman said thursday and then holiday till 21st but cant find it on scrolling up

herman Bergson: Yes corona...I'll be back the 21st...

Max Chatnoir: Oh, that's perfect.  I have to take my husband to the dentist on the 17th.  :-)

Corona Anatine: hmm hsame means i will gave to find something to fill the emptiness of tuesday and thursday nexty week

Max Chatnoir: Well, I will see you all Thursday.

Max Chatnoir: Bye for now.

herman Bergson: You have your day off Max...granted :-))

Corona Anatine: good session Herman

Corona Anatine: and you learn a lot about kei and sovot

herman Bergson: thank you corona :-))

herman Bergson: For you too!

herman Bergson: a pity....

herman Bergson: It was only one remark.....

herman Bergson: next time he wont get away with it...not in my class

Corona Anatine: wel the name sovot - does suggests folk from the soviet university

herman Bergson: I have no idea what that group of weird looking people was

Corona Anatine: a hub of griefing is found at the soviet university

Corona Anatine: was banned by LLK a few years back

Corona Anatine: there appearance was suggestive

herman Bergson: Sovot is Japanese

Corona Anatine: okies i saw that in the profile

herman Bergson: Kei-chan too

Corona Anatine: or at least the claim to be

herman Bergson: yes...

herman Bergson: for Sovot says "I do not understand the English conversation."

herman Bergson: but he knows to play with the word 'dense"

Corona Anatine: indeed

herman Bergson: which is quit idiomatic use

herman Bergson: American Japanese....perhaps

Corona Anatine: after a few years in sL one learns to spot the hallmark o f greifers - there chat topics also showed this

Corona Anatine: have encountered a lot worse

herman Bergson: they looked like some battlegroup indeed ^_^

Corona Anatine: but it might pay to have a tactic ready if you are being targeted

herman Bergson: I was a little worried indeed to be honest....

herman Bergson: why shoudl I...

Corona Anatine: because ti would amuse them to distrupt you lessons

herman Bergson: first of all I SIT here...so they cant do anything

herman Bergson: I give a shit about that...:-)

Corona Anatine: : )

herman Bergson: oh...funny coincidence....

herman Bergson: I scripted my lecturen just recently .....and I SIT here....

Corona Anatine: : )

herman Bergson: bad luck for griefers

Corona Anatine: oh btw herman - a link for you=http://www.secularconference.com/videos/

herman Bergson: ok...I'll check it out

Corona Anatine: : )

.

566: Everything has a cause.....

In our process of looking atheism we have reached an interesting stage: we have found clear evidence

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 that the developing mind between 2 and 7 years contains all presets necessary to religious thinking. 

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Educationally it is also the period during which many of us have learnt that going to church on Sunday is part of life and the rest.

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In that period we learn to believe in ghosts and in the dualist idea, that we are a body and a mind and that there can be other minds without a body.

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The third element, I did not yet mention, is the belief of a child, that everything has a purpose. It is that developmental phase where a child begins to ask “Why is this…” and “Why is that…”

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The trick with my son was always to trap him in a circular argument. “Dad, why are bananas bend?”. “That is so you can bend them right again, son”.

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“Why should I bend the bananas right, dad?” “Because they are bend, son” and thus I had a quiet afternoon again.

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That is how we grow up…. thinking that everything has a purpose, a reason of being or an intention.

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This morning I was reading an interview with some important astronomer. It was about the Big Bang. He said, that where ever we look into space

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galaxies, stars and so on are moving away from us, which means that the universe is expanding. And then comes that logic….

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Because everything is moving away from us, there HAS to have been a moment when that movement started. In other words, we have to assume, that there was a Big Bang.

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It is a nice model, but regarding questions like: Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know. 

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Yet we have this innate need to find a reason for everything. For the 2 to 7 year old children, that is no problem at all.

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Everything is there for a reason. Why are there mountains. Simple, they are there to climb. Why are there leaves on the trees. To get shadow in summer….

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In other words, nothing is just there. Behind its existence there has to be an intention, a design. And where there is a design, there has to be some designer, of course.

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For children this idea of a design of reality is an almost natural belief. And the next step, to learn to believe in a Designer isn’t that difficult then.

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You can take this proces one step further. When you believe in dualism and add to that the belief in a Designer,

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the next step could be a belief in the possibility to get to know this designer or even more…to get in touch with this designer.

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As you see, our brain looks almost predisposed to belief in such a way. But I immediately run into trouble already. This idea of a designer…..

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If you look at the complexity from micro- to macro-cosmos, I’d say that this can only be done by a team of designers.

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Where does that logic come from, that you only have one designer? And then this designer him or herself.

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We run into the same questions as with the Big Bang theory: Where did he come from? We don't know. Why did he appear? We don't know. Why do we always talk of a “HE” and not a “SHE”, “IT” perhaps?

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The problem we face here is the problem of evidence. The older we get the more realistic and demanding we become regarding the empirical quality of evidence.

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The subject we have run into here is called creationism and in other contexts named Intelligent Design.

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In the US there is a lot of money behind this idea. If you want Richard Dawkins on Red Alert!, then tell him that you as a scientist are funded by the Templeton Foundation of John Templeton.

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Declaring that relatively little is known about the divine through scripture and present-day theology, he predicted that "scientific revelations may be a gold mine for revitalizing religion in the 21st century." 

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To his mind, "All of nature reveals something of the creator. And god is revealing himself more and more to human inquiry, 

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not always through prophetic visions or scriptures but through the astonishingly productive research of modern scientists."

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Isn’t that something! We have to take a closer look at Intelligent Design and creationism and analyse the evidence, that is brought up to support such ideas.

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Thank you for your attention…the floor is yours…^_^

The Discussion

CB Axel: Having a philosopher for a father must be hell. :D

Roger Amdahl: Sorry Herman, I totally disagree on the part there is a reason for everything. The second part I disagree is the designer theory, what a bad designer she must be ! Please give me some proof of a designer ?

CB Axel thinks of Herman's son trying to unbend a banana.

Corona Anatine notes that Herman’s son was traumatised by having a smartarse dad

herman Bergson smiles

herman Bergson: Let me first make one thing clear...

Max Chatnoir: Once a woman who lived in my neighborhood said to me.  "Isn't it wonderful that shade appears only when the sun is out and you need shade."

Corona Anatine: intelligent design -hmm the intelligent has to be that of  the proponents of the 'theory'

CB Axel: I don't think that there is necessarily a reason for something, but everything must come from something.

Roger Amdahl: Why not tell your sun light makes things grow slower .. that is why the sun side of the banana is shorter, hence it is bend .. then he learned something

herman Bergson: I do not express always my perosnal opinion ...just report what is going on....

Max Chatnoir: That would look like divine providence if you didn't know about shadows.

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Corona Anatine: no Roger -becuase in the banana bunches the inner side i faces inwards

herman Bergson: In the first place...that reason for everything....

Corona Anatine: so is in b dark

Roger Amdahl: pfff,,, is that what your dad told you Corona ??

herman Bergson: Hold on please....

Corona Anatine: my dad was not a great conversationalist

herman Bergson: Let's stick to Roger's initial remark....

Corona Anatine: yeh

Roger Amdahl: a banana bench is band in same direction everywhere, not just outwards... observe !

herman Bergson: Corona..?! :-))

herman Bergson: the idea of a reason for everything....

herman Bergson: We love the idea....

Ciska Riverstone: well isn't that how we perceive the world as kids?

Corona Anatine: in what sense do you mean 'not a reason for everything'

Roger Amdahl: yes... it is just in our minds there should be a reason for things..

herman Bergson: But indeed it is at least a questionable stance

Ciska Riverstone: adults tell us all the time the reasons for things we have to do etc pp

Ciska Riverstone: so it is an experience for kids

Bejiita Imako: indeed

herman Bergson: yes Ciska...we are brought up with this belief

Corona Anatine: cos there are two different possible meanings to the word reason for' here

Bejiita Imako: does it have to be a reason for everything?

Ciska Riverstone: its important for us to find our way in societies in the first place as kids

herman Bergson: Yes Corona....there can be an intention behind the event or a cause...

Corona Anatine: the first is prior causuality the second has element of 'intended for' [by a designer]

herman Bergson: There Corona...we mean the same thing :-))

Roger Amdahl: you teach children with a reason , so they can g along in this society .. but that means nothing about the reason why we all here

Corona Anatine: : D

herman Bergson: I have no clue at all why we are al here Roger....

Roger Amdahl: I think there is no clue

herman Bergson: only seen from within a context I understand....

Ciska Riverstone: even the intent is learned by kids through parents... it is just learning by picking behaviour up

Corona Anatine: why we are here has no meaning

herman Bergson: I am in SL and so on....

Max Chatnoir: So the earth got hit by Theia (sp?) because their orbits crossed VS because Somebody thought we needed a moon?

Corona Anatine: other than the one we choose to have ourselves

herman Bergson: Interesting theory Max :-)

Bejiita Imako: yes'

herman Bergson: One remark about 'meaning"

herman Bergson: We create meaning withion contexts....

Roger Amdahl: We need the moon for mor stable earth, Stable climate and so .. That is why life could develop here .. just accidents adding up, no reason in it

Corona Anatine: but does 'god' even need to do more than just cause the initial expansion - after that the qauntum universe follws the laws of gravity etc

herman Bergson: Without a context it just doesn’t work...

Max Chatnoir: I wonder why it is harder to accept that we have to find our own meaning than that our life plan has been scripted for us?

herman Bergson: That implies a rather deterministic view on life Max...

Roger Amdahl: I am happy we have to find our purpose in life ourselves, and it is not dictated by some devine celestial dictator ..

Corona Anatine: assuming 'god' actually needed humans [ why] then it follows that it did not particulary matter which systems was suitable for life - eventually one or more would be somewhere

Max Chatnoir: Yes, it would, but some people seem to find it easier to believe.

herman Bergson: But if people like that, Max, how about their free will?

herman Bergson: are the robots?

Max Chatnoir: That's a good question.

Bejiita Imako: interesting

CB Axel: It feels better to say that someone has a bad life because of god's will then to say we all should make our own and others' lives better.

herman Bergson: Roger also gets nervous about a celestial dictator :-))

Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Agrees with CB

Max Chatnoir: I guess the free will in that case comes from deciding whether or not to go with the "plan".

Roger Amdahl: Free wil is ok ... If you want to believe, please do. But leave the other people alone, and don't force your ideas upon them.. That is where Religion is making most mistakes

Corona Anatine: we only believe that life 'needs ' moon and stable factors ect because we have them

Corona Anatine: that is in many was an assumption

herman Bergson: Hold on plz....

herman Bergson: We should make a sharp distinction here...

herman Bergson: What CB says is a psychological observation...not a philosophical one...

Corona Anatine: what CB axel or anyone else 'feels' about reality has no meaning to the universe

herman Bergson: What we here try to do is to find philosophical arguments and evidence for how people justify their existence

Roger Amdahl: No Corona. If we had no moon, earth's rotation would be very unstable, the north/south pole axis would swing like hell ... that implies very unstable climate.. , very hard to form life without a moon

Corona Anatine: being alive should be justification enough

CB Axel: Exactly. What I mean is that people who believe in god's will don't want to take responsibility for the state of the world.

Corona Anatine: that is perhaps so - until we find a planet without those that has life

Roger Amdahl: God's will you have a bad life ???? get serious please

Max Chatnoir: Story of Job?

CB Axel: Roger, that's what some people believe. Not me.

CB Axel: I'm just saying...

Corona Anatine: for instance a planet with a thick /dense atmosphere would not have extreme climate changes over the year however extreme the axial tilt

Corona Anatine: aslo

herman Bergson: irrelevant Corona...

Roger Amdahl: Yes... I know ... But I can't accept that stupid thinking

herman Bergson: we are discussing philosophy here ...

CB Axel: I can't either.

Corona Anatine: if it were a moon with an ice crust and liquid ocean beneath

Corona Anatine: so there are many parameters that allow life

herman Bergson: could you please stick to the subject

Roger Amdahl: *smiles

Max Chatnoir: Herman, I think you need a banana.  :-)

CB Axel: LOL

herman Bergson: I think so too Max :-))

Roger Amdahl: Well, we are half a chromosome away from a chimpansee... banana's are nice

CB Axel: Maybe we should all step back for a banana break. LOL

herman Bergson: The second point roger mentioned was this Designer....

Corona Anatine: God's will you have a bad life - that assumes that you and 'god' share the same values as to what 'bad' is

Corona Anatine: which need not be

herman Bergson: This designer will be the focus of some oncoming lectures :-)

herman Bergson: As I said...there is a lot of money in the US behind that idea

Max Chatnoir: I have two bones to pick with the designer, and both of them are in my knees.

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): who designed the designer?

Bejiita Imako: now thats an interesting idea

herman Bergson: ANd what I also notice is that the ID theory is mainly discussed in the US only

Corona Anatine: why is it assumed the 'designer' was intelligent

Bejiita Imako: the old saying turtles all way down might come in handy

Max Chatnoir: Yes, the support for "Answers in Genesis" is about 100x what science education gets.

Roger Amdahl: And the US being a secular state ... giving money to teach rubbish about designer without any proof of it ?? I am flabbergasted

herman Bergson: Roger...

Corona Anatine: well they do consider the bible to be 'proof'

Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thats due to where the schoolbooks are printed Roger

herman Bergson: There have been up to now at least 25 trials in Court to get ID in the educational system

Corona Anatine: yeh such as caddis flies having fish hooks

herman Bergson: In the US they go to court for that

Max Chatnoir: Max, who lives in Texas, is chagrinned.

herman Bergson: really fascinating....

Roger Amdahl: sorry Herman ... that is bullshit too.. Bible holds no proof ... There was no Excodus .. Israeli archeologists came to that conclusion based on facts.. no Noah's arc ... No whatever .. just stories

Corona Anatine: that does nt matter to the exponents of iD

herman Bergson: Roger...stay philosophical in this matter....

Roger Amdahl: oops .. Not responding to herman .. was responding to Corona

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is id?

Max Chatnoir: Intelligent Design.

Corona Anatine: they are ID adovates or just ID  for short

CB Axel: I'm sure we all agree with that, Roger, but there are a lot of people here in the US who have never been taught how to think for themselves.

herman Bergson: I know what you mean...but we need clear arguments only....

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you

herman Bergson: Intelligent Design, Beertje

Corona Anatine: or anywhere else in the world come to that

Roger Amdahl: With so many proof of evolution, big bang ,... it troubles me to stay philosophical .. proof is overwhelming ..

Corona Anatine: few want to think for themselves - preferring long dead ancestors to think for them

CB Axel: Exactly, Corona.

herman Bergson smiles

herman Bergson: of course you are excused Roger ^_^

CB Axel: Thinkin' is hard. °͜°

Max Chatnoir: So we get stuck in the mindset we have when we are 7.

Max Chatnoir: Interesting.

Bejiita Imako: indeed, the right that all should have right to shoot each other all time in us having 20 guns per person is from some guys lived 300 years ago

herman Bergson: Yes Max....all"religious" ideas show up in the brain during that period....

Max Chatnoir: And ever so many people are ever so happy to take advantage of that.

Bejiita Imako: i dont get it

Bejiita Imako: in sweden only police and license hunters can have guns

Bejiita Imako: ins no right to have it

Bejiita Imako: its

herman Bergson: The belief in conscious objects, like trees, teddybears and so on...

Bejiita Imako: and also im alive today

CB Axel wishes she lived in Sweden.

herman Bergson: Like a young boy said....I need my body so I can run around

Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Its never too late CB

Max Chatnoir: Well, I get it.  I remember being totally fascinated by the tales of the end of the world that kid next door told me.  Kids love stories.

Corona Anatine: grass is alwas greener axel

Corona Anatine: Sweden has had rape incidents rise drastically in recent years

herman Bergson: And then the idea that everything has a reason....

CB Axel: My grass is covered by 13 inches of snow right now.

Max Chatnoir: God is testing you, CB.  :-)

Corona Anatine: that would not change much in sweden

CB Axel: °͜°

herman Bergson: Lol no corona....would be 26 inch there

Corona Anatine: but how would nayone know what the tests are?

Roger Amdahl: Your grass will grow faster now because it is in the dark CB :) .. banana - theory ... watch the proof when snow disappears :)

CB Axel: hehehe

Max Chatnoir: I think that idea that everything has a reason is very persistent.  I still get "What are cockroaches for" from my students.

CB Axel: I'm pretty sure I'm flunking god's test.

Corona Anatine: agfain how would you know

herman Bergson: Ahh yes Max....typical example...

Ciska Riverstone: without that drive - would we try to develop?

herman Bergson: No Ciska...it is the drive behind science....

Corona Anatine: cockroachs are for cockroaching

CB Axel: Max, tell them that the cockroaches aren't "for" anything, but this is how they fit into the life cycle.

herman Bergson: but here again we say: only EVIDENCE based....plz

Max Chatnoir: The thing that Haldane said about God = he must really have liked beetles.

Bejiita Imako: they just are

Bejiita Imako: like we all are

Bejiita Imako: i think at least

Corona Anatine: i thought it was hydrogen and empty space that 'god' liked

Max Chatnoir: I do, CB.  I'm not sure I make much of a dent.

Roger Amdahl: Ohh.. here is another religious key word ... end of world. How to scare the people .. exactly .. predict end of world, and only if you believed all rubbish in this book, you will live for ever ... saying thank you all day .. sometimes accompanied by musical instruments... well, that sounds like hell to me .

herman Bergson: Answer the question within the proper context Max...

herman Bergson: Within the context of the food chain for instance...

Max Chatnoir: Yum.

Max Chatnoir: But that is a good idea.

Corona Anatine: well im sure there are tribes/groups that eat cockroaches

Max Chatnoir: I'm sure SOMEBODY eats cockroaches.  Maybe rats.

herman Bergson: You could ask....why are you here for.....

Corona Anatine: bird would for one

herman Bergson: If you put is in a wide metaphysical perspective ti is anonsense question...

Max Chatnoir: I will have to look it up.  :-)

CB Axel: Chickens eat cockroaches and I eat chickens, so I indirectly eat cockroaches.

herman Bergson: but within the context of SL, personal interest in philosophy , it can be properly answered

Corona Anatine: or you could ask from a cockroach perspective 'what are humans for

herman Bergson: lol

Corona Anatine: it is as meaningful

CB Axel: I like that, Corona.

herman Bergson: here we have the pure animism again :-))

Max Chatnoir: Frogs, beetles, geckos iguanas, parasitic wasps.

Ciska Riverstone: true corona - very important question for a cockroach

Roger Amdahl: Humans are for feeding the cockroaches ..

Max Chatnoir: Who doesn't love a gecko.

Max Chatnoir: I'll pull that out next time.

CB Axel: But do cockroaches even ask, or do they just go about their cockroachy business without worrying about it?

herman Bergson: and our ability to put a mind in an inanimate being

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do coclroaches screem when they se us, like we screem as we see a cockroach?

Corona Anatine: a more siginificant example than cockraoches would be -what are tapeworms for

Corona Anatine: they just are

CB Axel: Maybe wondering why we are here is what separates us from the cockroaches.

herman Bergson: Corona gives here the example of how deep this kind of thinking is embedded in us

Corona Anatine: oh its very deeply embedded

herman Bergson: oh yes...

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Corona

Bejiita Imako: ahaa

Corona Anatine: to se the universe as being here for our benefit

herman Bergson: and the earth as our property...

Corona Anatine: 'god ' also is seen as being here for our benefit

Max Chatnoir: Yes.  We needed a moon for life to evolve so that WE could evolve.

Roger Amdahl: mm... how modest Corona .. the universe just for our benefit ?? LOL

herman Bergson: Roger...

herman Bergson: What else should we do with the universe?

Corona Anatine: wel that is how creationsist se eit

herman Bergson: As such it is a total waist of space, energy, matter....

herman Bergson: isnt it?

Roger Amdahl: mm.. what we do with cockroaches.? it is just there, because it happened..

Corona Anatine: to the ID folk the universe has the purpose of being here for our use

Chantal (nymf.hathaway): aren't we all the center?!

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why should we do something with the universe, we can't even make the earth healthy

herman Bergson: Well Chantal...that is the weird point....

Corona Anatine: and it follows that 'god' also is here for our purpose

Roger Amdahl: Well Herman , maybe to your surprise, the total sum of energy ( matter being a form of energy too) might be excactly ZERO !!

Roger Amdahl: no waist at all

herman Bergson: Whereever we look ...into space...it is moving away from US!

herman Bergson: that is very weird....

Corona Anatine: becsue despite having the whole of space and time to manage 'god' finds time to hear prayers

CB Axel: I don't blame space. It can't tolerate us.

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we eat too much garlic...

herman Bergson whispers: Nooooo! Beertje...I love it!

Roger Amdahl: well .. garlic keeps the vampires away :)

Max Chatnoir: Never!

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

Bejiita Imako: hahaha¨

herman Bergson: Yes Roger you are right!

Max Chatnoir: God made garlic for population control.

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahahah

Roger Amdahl: LOL

herman Bergson: SO I guess it is time for us all to get our garlic and end this class :-))

Bejiita Imako: when u eat it noone want to be near you

Bejiita Imako: lol

herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again ^_^

Bejiita Imako: at least afterwards

CB Axel reaches for another banana.

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not even universe Bejiita:)

herman Bergson: CLass dismissed.....

Bejiita Imako: this was good

CB Axel: Excellent discussion. Thank you, all.

Roger Amdahl: eat garlic too. you'll be fine with another garlic-lover :)

Corona Anatine: on the 8th day god made motorcycles

herman Bergson: And an A+ for the one of you who comes up with the best garlic recipe...

Bejiita Imako: i love garlic

Bejiita Imako: ok cu next time ㋡

Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you Herman and everyone else ㋡ Most interesting!

Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman - thanx folks

herman Bergson: I love to make Aioli....:-)

Corona Anatine: thanks Herman -good presentation

Roger Amdahl: Thanks Herman ... nice lecture, good discussion ..

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman :))

herman Bergson: My pleasure

Corona Anatine: so now we know why we are here-

Corona Anatine: to hear herman speak

Max Chatnoir: Good try, Herman!  You know humans are supposed to be pedomorphic.  Maybe that's why we keep the ideas we had when we were 7.

herman Bergson: Yes...

herman Bergson: homework...

CB Axel: I thought it was to feed bananas and garlic to cockroaches.

herman Bergson: The best Garlic dish recipe ..next Tuesday

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)

Bejiita Imako: good idea herman

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Bejiita Imako: c then

Door Deluxe Plus: harry Moonwing has just entered your land !

Bejiita Imako: cu

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all and sweet dreams about garlic:)

Bejiita Imako: hehe