455: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 20

At this point, of course , I could continue with showing you all kinds of examples and scientific results regarding our desire to feel good as a basic of human nature.

But I think it is more to the point to show you, that already from the beginning of its philosophical adulthood man knew about what now is offered as new insights derived from biology and neurosciences.

In other words, there is nothing new under the sun, except that we now have all kinds of empirical evidence from a number of sciences, that tell that those from the past were on the right track regarding understanding human nature.

Who were they? Democritus (c.460 - c.370 BC), Aristippus (c. 435 – c. 356 BC), Epicurus (c. 341–c. 270 BC) representing hedonism and Aristotle (384 BC – 322 BC) as a representative of eudiamonism.

Hedonism assumes that man naturally seeks pleasure, which in Greek  is called "hedone" , hence the name. 

This commitment is reflected negatively in avoiding pain and positively in the pursuit of all that can generate a feeling of wellbeing. 

Hedonism recognizes not only the psychological fact, but also assumes that indeed enjoying is the most valuable or the highest good for man, and that he therefore does well when he seeks pleasure. 

A person is acting good who lets his behavior be determined by the question, how he himself can obtain the most pleasure, in this way he not only lives according to his nature, but he also fulfills his destiny.

The word is derived from the Greek word "eudaimonia" which Iiterally means a good demon or spirit, that means being fortunate or lucky. 

Originally it so relates in the first place to the external conditions. Later, the emphasis shifted to the inner state and therefore the meaning of happiness in the sense of happiness or bliss. 

It indicates a feeling of well-being, resulting from knowing a harmony both with himself and with his environment. 

The man, who has reached the eudemonia, enjoys a sense of complete satisfaction, not only physically but also mentally. 

The latter distinguishes eudemonisme from hedonism. It is however clear that the boundaries between the two systems are fluid.

Although the word is in different cases is shallow, we still can best translated eudemonia by "feeling good". 

Eudemonism now wants like hedonism  start from experience and believes that it teaches that man naturally seeks for "feeling good", while it adds, that this is morally good. 

The aim of human activity, according to the eudemonism is always "feeling good". It thus regards "feeling good" as the greatest good. It is now up to the people to learn, to find true "feeling good". Thus eudemonisme  therefore is a life doctrine.

Then it is fascinaitng to notice, that interest in the concept of eudaimonia and ancient ethical theory more generally enjoyed a revival in the twentieth century.

 Elizabeth Anscombe, one of our female philosophers, in her article "Modern Moral Philosophy" (1958) argued that duty based conceptions of morality are conceptually incoherent for they are based on the idea of a "law without a lawgiver". 

She claims a system of morality conceived along the lines of the Ten Commandments depends on someone having made these rules.

Anscombe recommends a return to the eudaimonistic ethical theories of the ancients, particularly Aristotle, 

which ground morality in the interests and well being of human moral agents, and can do so without appealing to any such lawgiver.

As you see, what is now presented to us as insights derived from evolutionary psychology, biology and neurosciences, have been known to the homo sapiens for centuries.

And now I also have an announcement to make ..^_^

Next class will be on February 19, because in between I gonna spend my time on the Dutch island Schiermonnikoog. Use Google Earth to wave at me ^_^

The Discussion

[13:24] Britta Exonar: yes quite fascinating

[13:24] herman Bergson: thank you..:-))

[13:25] herman Bergson: The floor is yours...:-)

[13:25] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): cool :)

[13:25] herman Bergson: Have a seat Muan :-)

[13:25] Muon Yiyuan: Giving up smoking while you are there, Herman?

[13:25] Debbie DJ (framdor): Eudaiimonism - what a lovely concept - maximising the feeling of well being.

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:25] Debbie DJ (framdor): fits in with your holiday herman

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: right now I'm trying to do all kind of stuff that make me feel good, right now try a lot of dance styles and similar

[13:26] Debbie DJ (framdor): I read a set of ten atheist commandments earlier today...

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: awesome fun amd make me feel great

[13:26] herman Bergson: it struck me that all what the neuroscientist say today was already said by the Greek

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well those ancients were well informed on philosophy and religion

[13:27] herman Bergson: That is why I presented you today with classic hedonism and eudaimonism

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: already the old greeks

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: a classic saying

[13:28] herman Bergson: I would say they were well informed on human nature Merlin...

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Religion was about the only thing they had to think about all day

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes, that too Herman

[13:28] herman Bergson: They already understood what it was all about...

[13:28] Britta Exonar considering teh fact that relatively ancient times being less complex than our times which in fact should require even more to ponder over issues fo feeling good

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: seems so

[13:28] Britta Exonar our times being more complex relatively

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Britta....

[13:29] herman Bergson: and they didn't have any scientific insights we have now...!

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: a bit fascinating for sure

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): scientific distractions

[13:29] Britta Exonar that's why is so fascinating....they had developed abstract thinking to the utmost then

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: but i guess its because feeling good is a such basic drive

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Britta....

[13:30] Britta Exonar: ı agree Bejita

[13:30] herman Bergson: Like their atomism....

[13:30] herman Bergson: the idea that reality is in fact constructed out of small identical particles...

[13:30] Laila Schuman: the common man worked extremely hard all day just to survive and died young

[13:30] herman Bergson: Why would you get such an idea living in ancient Greece???

[13:31] Muon Yiyuan: The Aristotle particle!

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I have heard something different Laila

[13:31] Britta Exonar: ah!

[13:31] Muon Yiyuan: a forerunner to the Higgs

[13:31] herman Bergson: Ye Laila philosophy was for the wealthy part of the population but never the less

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): It was the industrial revolution which caused people to have a heavy workload

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): We touched on this once before here

[13:32] Debbie DJ (framdor): Ha - found the link to ten commandments for atheists...It is a bit eudaemonistic

[13:32] Debbie DJ (framdor): http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/the-10-commandments-for-atheists-20130205-2dw83.html

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:32] Laila Schuman: not if you lived off the land, had raids coming and going and did all the work yourself... have you been to africa... they have similar situations yet today

[13:32] Britta Exonar but imaigne the construction fo heavy building all day carving stones and breaking them to shape and carry under teh hot sun of the mediterranean that was quite hard work ...

[13:32] herman Bergson: What I didn't mention is Buddhism....

[13:33] herman Bergson: I guess that is a life doctrine close to eudaimonism as well

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well they were poor Laila, but they had a lot of leisure time in the Elizabethan times etc

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): so I have heard anyway

[13:34] herman Bergson: So also in eastern philosophy this eudaimonist idea emerged

[13:34] Laila Schuman: hmm

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I thought eudemonism sounded Buddhist

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin....

[13:34] Debbie DJ (framdor): I am surprised we work so hard, if pleasure is our main drive. we should take more holidays....

[13:34] herman Bergson: that is what I was thinking of...

[13:34] herman Bergson: So I do Debbie ^_^

[13:34] Britta Exonar: /em but hard work can be pleasurable for some...

[13:35] herman Bergson: Next class February 19 :-))

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): When computers were being developed they predicted we would all have more leisure time

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: true but now we have money coming in our way for that

[13:35] Debbie DJ (framdor): So you do Herman!!!!

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): (and use less paper too hahaha)

[13:35] herman Bergson: lol...

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:35] Britta Exonar also for soem leisure activity can be work like..

[13:35] herman Bergson: and what did we get....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: or u use a tablet or smartphone instead of papers

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: so do i

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: i just loose papers

[13:36] herman Bergson: a constant mood of irritation because the bloody computer is screwing up again

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The software company I worked for would print everything four times over for people

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hahaha that happens to one of my work buddies all time

[13:36] Debbie DJ (framdor): I put a shredder onto the output of the high printer to promote a paperless office ;)

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: lool

[13:36] Britta Exonar loves shredders makes good confetti

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hahaha but then u still waste paper and for no use at all this time

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:37] Debbie DJ (framdor): and beds for hamsters

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:37] Britta Exonar: shredders work for fun

[13:37] herman Bergson: Well...I guess we are becoming all eudaimonistic now talking about our fun subjects :-)

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hahahaha yes

[13:37] Muon Yiyuan: I once heard the japanese had invented a reverse photocopier

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yeah we are off topic again... sorry

[13:37] Debbie DJ (framdor): Yes. How does second life rate on the eudaimonistic scale?

[13:37] herman Bergson: I wont put you all through the shredder but just thank you for your particiaption:-)

[13:37] Muon Yiyuan: a purely eudemonistic idea

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:37] Muon Yiyuan: you feed in the photo copies

[13:38] Muon Yiyuan: and the paper comes out blank

[13:38] Britta Exonar: thank you Herman..that was informative and quite entertaining...

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: for sure

[13:38] Britta Exonar: lol Muon

[13:38] Muon Yiyuan: just like my mind does with new ideas

[13:38] Debbie DJ (framdor): Great lecture thanks Prof Herman...

[13:38] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): thanks herman :)

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and was in a great mod from start ㋡

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well at least I hope you noticed that the ancient Greek already knew what we are trying to proof now by neuroscience and evolutionary psychology...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: time to continue with all this nice dancing i did before that got me into this nice state

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: this week will be great for sure

[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: afk :-/

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he Greek were very smart..

[13:39] herman Bergson: Plenty of time for dancing Bejiita :-)

[13:39] Debbie DJ (framdor): The greeks were very hedonistic it seems.

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes, im getting better and better too

[13:40] Debbie DJ (framdor): Their legend lives on

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes...emphasizing WERE :-)

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a nice vacation to Schiermonnikoog Herman

[13:40] herman Bergson: Well now they are smart in tax evasion :-)

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes have a good time there ㋡

[13:40] Britta Exonar yes enjoy your vacation please....thank you again .))

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ill look up what this place is

[13:41] herman Bergson: Thank you Beertje :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Thank you all

[13:41] Debbie DJ (framdor): Have a tan when you get back herman....

[13:41] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:41] Debbie DJ (framdor): and enjoy at least one pina collada on the beach

[13:41] Britta Exonar waves to her class mates...be well

[13:41] herman Bergson: I guess it wil be more like a frost Debbie

[13:41] Debbie DJ (framdor): bye britta

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: cu

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hugs all ㋡

[13:41] Britta Exonar: Byee

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: try to feel good now everyone

[13:41] herman Bergson: Bye Britta

[13:41] Oceane (oceane.madrigal) wishes everybody a nice and pleasant day... bye bye :)

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: I will

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:41] Britta Exonar: Bye prof.

[13:42] Muon Yiyuan: Always a pleasure and an education, Herman

[13:42] Debbie DJ (framdor): bye bye friends...

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): CU Debbie

[13:43] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Herman, and everyone still here

[13:43] herman Bergson: Bye Merlin :-)

454; The Art Not to Be an Egoist 19

There is a living organism on this planet that is far superior to all other creatures on this earth. It is fast, sharp, observing, analyzing.

Whatever it gets in focus, is analyzes, studies, evaluates, stores. Fully awake, tireless and inexhaustible it is operational day and night. And that weighing only 1.3 kg (2.9 lb): our brain!

In fact it is a rather lonely being. Sure, it looks like all other brains with neurons, synapses and so on, but as an individual brain it is unique in its wiring.

Nobody can access my brain. It is isolated and autonomous. This sounds pretty lonely, but brains don't like to be lonely.

We need other brains to survive ourselves. Deprived from any contact or communication we waste away, atrophy.

We need the faces, words and gestures of others. But who are these others. Why are we attracted to them or scared by them?

Evolution has found a sorting and evaluation system for this. Everybody uses the same system; the same but never identical: our psyche or mind.

Living creatures with such a complex mind like the homo sapiens has, behave in a special, difficult to understand way.

They can love and hate, looking for protection or behave independently, believe in things or be skeptic, be honest or dishonest, ambitious or lazy.

In other words, they are a vessel full of contradictions. Different from person to person and also within one person himself.

Tho scientists love laws and principles and love to reduce the complex to a simple law, it  is a misconception to try to reduce the homo sapiens to one basic principle, like egoism or selfish genes or things like that.

Our life is constituted of what we long for, like to have, like food, love, warmth, friendship, pleasure and of how we see ourselves: smart, kind, intelligent, friendly (maybe someone likes to look at himself as mean and tough too).

Western philosophy, strongly influenced by theology has tried to explain to us how to deal with this. On the one hand there is our longing for….which is in fact lust and on the other hand is how we ought to see ourselves.

This lust has always been regarded as a bad thing. The demonizing of lust, of wanting things is deeply rooted in our culture: be modest ! Behave, don't be an egoist !

To make this view of man not only a religious but also a scientific view you need Sigmund Freud (1856 - 1939), who invented the ES (id) and über-Ich (super-ego). 

And in line with the theologians Freud demonized the ES, the beastly lust and passions in man, where the über-ich the one who is in constant battle with this ES, to create the controlled psyche, the ego

But what is wrong with lust and passions? What is wrong with wanting food, love, shelter, friendship? But as I said we are a vessel full of contradictions.

Some people also are jealous, sadistic, ruthless. All this is apparently part of our biology.

Be true,  who wants to be called a sadist? That is not a general human desire. One of our most important desires is to feel GOOD, physically and morally.

We look at ourselves as a good person, or  long to be regarded as one at least. And that is why we are nice to each other (not always but often), because it makes us feel good.

Not because it serves our genetic interests, but it nurtures our psyche, our mind.

The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you ... ^_^

[13:19] herman Bergson: looks at Merlin....

[13:20] herman Bergson: To short...perhaps? :-))

[13:20] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman

[13:20] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Thanks

[13:20] Debbie Dee (framdor): In a nutshell. Well put. Bravo!

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: hmm interesting indeed

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: and true as well

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: a basic drive is to feel good indeed

[13:20] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...we move slowly into the direction of a biological view of man

[13:21] Debbie Dee (framdor): And to feel wanted and cherished by those we admire

[13:21] Catt (catt.gable): there is a classic episode of the Star Trek original series that illustrates your point about the brain needing interaction

[13:21] herman Bergson: Very TRUE Debbie...!

[13:21] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): To function effectively as a social animal we need a collective code.....

[13:21] herman Bergson: That wil be the next step

[13:21] herman Bergson: I guess we have such a code, like all social animal have Loo, I would say

[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:22] herman Bergson: But ours is probably more complex

[13:22] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): *nods* that is where the 'theology' bit comes in?

[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): Now, how did hell and heaven get involved in something so simple?

[13:22] herman Bergson: no..the biology bit and ethology bit, Loo

[13:23] herman Bergson: I guess today we know that we have a lot in common with other social animals

[13:23] herman Bergson: that is what ethology shows us...

[13:23] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): quote: [13:15] herman Bergson: Western philosophy, strongly influenced by theology has tried to explain to us how to deal with this. On the one hand there is our longing for….which is in fact lust and on the other hand is how we ought to see ourselves.

[13:24] herman Bergson: neuroscience shows us that to some extend our brains look like those of other primates

[13:24] herman Bergson: I see...

[13:25] herman Bergson: There I meant that theology like Freud demonized lust...teaching us how bad it is for us

[13:25] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): yes

[13:25] herman Bergson: Like I said in the previous lecture...

[13:25] herman Bergson: there isn't a primate who needed a religion to survive in evolution...

[13:26] herman Bergson: but we have religions....

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:26] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): we developed the frontal lobes

[13:26] herman Bergson: which shows that our brain is more evolved than that of our relatives :-)

[13:26] herman Bergson: Exactly Loo

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: and look in the US, sex and natural nakedness and such is not allowed but pics of murder and gore is all ok

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: so weird

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:27] herman Bergson: We better don't mention names Bejiita :-))

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes I have noticed that too Beji

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): The religion, and the empire go hand in hand... religion is a means to get people to obey, and kill others in the name of the state (war)

[13:27] herman Bergson: We all knowa weird uncle or aunt...:-)

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Even on the BBC too... no warnings about violence, but warnings about nudity

[13:28] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): yes it justifies people's perceptions

[13:28] Catt (catt.gable): It is not that it is not allowed....best to be accurate when assessing another country

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): I like nudity much more than violence though.

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...the way we handle sex and erotics is interesting compared with how we handle violence

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:29] herman Bergson: Me too Debbie...:-)

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: and have been so får long time

[13:29] Catt (catt.gable): It is just seen as wrong, compared to depiction of violence which seems to be more acceptable.

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: sex and feeling naturally good is taboo for some reason

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes (credit goes to Bejii for raising it)

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: our natural drives

[13:29] herman Bergson: But this is WEIRD>..

[13:30] herman Bergson: If the human organism longs to feel good....

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Watching kids on computer games makes me wonder about an inherent violence though.

[13:30] herman Bergson: I would say looking at nudity makes you feel good and looking at violence doesnt...:-)

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes.

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: yes thats correct

[13:30] herman Bergson: Well Debbie...ever seen old cartoons on tv...

[13:30] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Debbie there is a lot of research that it does not affect them....

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes...

[13:30] Qwark Allen: what you see in the main news? violence mainly

[13:31] herman Bergson: there is nothing more violent than cartoons…

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I dont believe that research Loo

[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): Agreed herman - and violence with out pain or blood

[13:31] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): those that kill are sociopaths usually and influenced by the gaming as no moral coding

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is a lot of research

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): They are not taking account of longer term effects

[13:31] herman Bergson: True Loo

[13:31] herman Bergson: But take an action movie...!

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): unless one is already damaged to begin with

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): it is a subtle brainwashing over time

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes GEmma...

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think the guys who pilot drones are trained via war games on computers.

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: very much possible

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): In fact it is a game the way it is now played.

[13:32] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): My 15 yr old daughter plays kill em games

[13:32] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): thinks SL is boring....

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: and then they think of it as a game when they kill real people

[13:32] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): she also is a Cathedral chorister... ;)

[13:32] Catt (catt.gable): special virtual scenarios are provided for training, yes

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think those are already ill

[13:32] herman Bergson: That is not true Bejiita...

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes B, and they use language that depersonalizes people too.... Target etc

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: its important to differ a machine from reality

[13:33] herman Bergson: I read an article about those drone pilots.....a lot of mentla stress....

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Cops do it too btw

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: i play some war games too but i don't go out and do same thing in real for that, could never do that

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: im simply amusing me with some good action

[13:33] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): many professions depersonalize

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: but some games i've tried are scary realistic

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The science of bullet technology, rapidly immobilizing the target etc

[13:34] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): it helps the coping mechanisms

[13:34] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): IEP Menzies wrote about nurse

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): So if we like to feel good and loved, maybe the computer games create a way of releasing our violent side so we can be nice to people?

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): And don't forget, the British police do it all too

[13:34] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): yes they do

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes, that they do for me

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:35] herman Bergson: Well....let's think about this....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: blasting of some steam and still be a nice guy

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: I think the inhibition level is lower in extreme situations if you play such games

[13:35] herman Bergson: as a social being we are nice to each other because it makes us feel good...

[13:35] herman Bergson: But this only said for a start..

[13:35] herman Bergson: I also said that we are a vessel of contradictions....

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): ok

[13:35] Catt (catt.gable): Many years ago in Japan some businesses (and maybe still do) provided a break time and means by which employees could act out aggression (a punching bag type thing, if I recall) in order to de-stress and therefore remain civilized in other areas life.

[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:36] herman Bergson: and there all action games and killer movies could come in....

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): catt - the punchbag had a picture of the boss...

[13:36] Catt (catt.gable): thanks Debbie

[13:36] herman Bergson: really Debbie???

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): So herman, next week we look at the bag of contradictions?

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I have heard of such things too... and the bosses know about it too

[13:37] herman Bergson: You got a market there Debbie :-)

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:37] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Also illustrated in 'Call the Midwife' they used to have women onboard ships to relieve the sexual frustrations of sailors and kept the ship calm

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes herman, you could pick the target of your anger... I ws exposed to it for a short while.

[13:37] herman Bergson: oh my...

[13:37] Catt (catt.gable): interesting!

[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale) notices that

[13:38] herman Bergson: AAT least we can conclude that we certainly aren not one priciple organisms

[13:38] herman Bergson: nor purely programmed by instinct

[13:39] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): phone brb

[13:39] herman Bergson: I forgot to ask everybody to turn of their cellphone..ok..:-)

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): True. And I love the idea that we are nice to each other because it makes us feel good .

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): herman

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson: I'll elaborate on this theme in the next lecture....

[13:40] herman Bergson: .

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hehe do so ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson: It is already a feel good experience to believe that in fact we are nice people :-)

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is also self protection

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): I cant wait for tuesday....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: will be nice

[13:41] herman Bergson: Ok...next lecture I'll be nice to you all ^_^

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: and we try to be nice too, lol

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: this was NICE stuff

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:42] herman Bergson: That would be lovely Lizzy ^_^

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): OK - before we all leave.... I propose a group hug ;)

[13:42] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your nice presence again and participation....

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): HUGGGS

[13:42] herman Bergson: lol

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[13:42] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:42] Vadaman: Thanks Herman.

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): That was a great lecture thanks herman....

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[13:43] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:43] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] herman Bergson: tho I'd love to keep you here all day ...such nice people ^_^

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and then there was Coffee!!!

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: thank you and good night everybody

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): WaaaHaHAhahAHA! AhhhhHAhahhAHhahHAH! haha!

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*ℋєєє ℋααααα ℋααααα ℋєєє ℋααααα ℋααααα*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): and biscuits!

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yummy!

[13:43] herman Bergson: Have a nice day / evening ^_^

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): bye friends...

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and night..

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hugs all

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Debbie,

[13:44] herman Bergson: Bye Merlin :-)

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Herman, and everyone who is still here

[13:45] Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Back

[13:46] Catt (catt.gable): tc all smiles

453: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 18

The  question today is: Is altruism in fact egoism in disguise and aren't we by nature touch and ruthless egoists?

The general meaning of the word 'egoism' is self-interest, seeking advantage in our actions. I guess, that in this general sense we all are egoists.

It can not be denied that consciously or unconsciously we get some benefits from our actions: relaxing ourselves, evading a quarrel, feel good, not making a bad impression….

You even could suppose that such a holy nun like Mother Teresa of Calcutta (1910 - 1997) with all her care for the poor, 

will have felt a reward for her actions in the form of  a feel good experience or the expectation of a nice place in Heaven.

That I want to experience some positive effects or benefits from my actions, you can not call bad. There is nothing wrong with cheering up yourself with such 'benefits' as a feel good moment or preventing a quarrel with your friend.

We only can be good to others, when we are good to ourselves. Even Jesus said "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Math. 19: 19)

Would this incentive to self-love or the feelings of Mother Teresa justify, that we call ourselves Egoists?

Not a single philosopher in our history, who assumed that man was basically good has opposed to the idea that you may expect some benefits from your actions.

The purely selfless altruism is  so utopian, that it is completely pointless to describe humanity against the background of this figment as selfish or egoistic.

When every altruistic action is basically motivated by some kind of self-interest, then the word egoism looses its meaning. 

When we all are egoists in this sense then it is an exciting observation equal to the observation that human beings have two legs.

Yet we don't like to be called egoists. Thence there must be a second meaning of this word: egoism then is a more straightforward preoccupation with the self at the expense of others and an excessive use  of "I".

Egoists in the sense of ruthless self-interest are people who never would accept to be treated like they treat others.

They don't see others as equals, use others for their personal gain only. Others are only means to personal advantage.

Ok, maybe we all recognize this  in some of our own actions, but real die-hard egoists are a rare species with no friends.

And this is the reason of the mistake a lot of bio-philosophers make. They assume that deep inside human nature rules this hardcore egoism.

According to them, some moment in evolution the homo sapiens discovered that cooperation was more effective than the lonesome cowboy strategy.

The basic idea is that men like mushrooms pop up above ground and suddenly discover that cooperating with each other eventually benefits the survival of his personal genes.

But we are organisms with plans and intentions and there are more intentions in life than only the survival of our genes.

We'd better say that the homo sapiens probably is motivated more by his fears, scruples, his vanity and sudden hunches than by his well calculated self-interest.

If the later were true then he is the most stupid Gen-egoist ever. While he is depleting natural resources, destroying valuable forests, creating a huge pollution of land and sea,all which endangers the survival of his genes, 

he is worried about the opinion of his boss, loves to be a couch potato watching TV, plays senseless computer games, spends many hours in SL, and so on….

I guess being a real hardcore egoist isn't that simple at all….., because egoism and altruism are both part of our nature.

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you .. ^_^

[13:23] Lizzy Pleides: thank you herman , that was great again!

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:23] Ajatar (alpheratz): thank you herman

[13:23] herman Bergson: Main point is that both behavior patterns...selfish and altruistic are part of our nature

[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you say an egoist has no friends..but I think he doens't care if he has a friend or not..

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well I was not quite sure what you meant by egoist so you have certainly clarified it now

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): beware of confusion with egotist of course

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is the issue Beertje.....

[13:24] herman Bergson: ebcause we are basically social animals this hardcore egoism is almost anti social

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: we probably have a natural egoism and a pathologic egoism which is antosocial

[13:25] herman Bergson: Egotism is the stronger word for it indeed Merlin

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes..I know one in RL who behaves like an egoist..and he is a very anoying person with no friends at all

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There is man called David Starkey who is famously rude to (some) people

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): BUT....

[13:26] herman Bergson: A logical consequence of his behavior I would say Beertje

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): He has lots of money so he can afford to be

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I guess he still has friends

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): friends who like his money

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): it helps

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not him as a person

[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: we know macho types who are very egoistic bust despite have many friends

[13:27] herman Bergson: There are various kinds of anti social behavior....

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): but the point is, he gets by, and seems happy enough

[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can an egoist really be happy?

[13:27] herman Bergson: You must make a difference between individual instances and geneal behavior

[13:28] herman Bergson: That is a complex question beertje....

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or has he a 'happy mask' on his face?

[13:28] herman Bergson: for who defines Happiness?

[13:28] herman Bergson: defines

[13:28] herman Bergson: Take empathy....

[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: i guess everyone does.. and redefines during life

[13:29] herman Bergson: people with little ability to empathy can be very happy while others call them cold and calculating

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes true..but that is not egoism

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the are unable to feel empathy

[13:30] herman Bergson: such people think only of themselves...not bothered what others experience due to them

[13:30] herman Bergson: Lack of empathy seems to me a good quality for a hardcore egoist

[13:30] Ajatar (alpheratz): so they don't even suffer for the other people reactions as they don't care

[13:31] herman Bergson: no...

[13:31] herman Bergson: kind of autism in fact

[13:31] Ajatar (alpheratz): nods

[13:31] herman Bergson: But our basic question is about human nature....

[13:32] Ajatar (alpheratz): What if we see our social group - in which we live or we feel part of it - an extension of ourselves? I mean, we are part of it.

[13:32] herman Bergson: and in the 80s, but before that Hobbes of course too, these bio philosophers thought to have found THE explanation of human behavior....

[13:32] herman Bergson: selfish genes....

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): oh no

[13:33] herman Bergson: But to reduce the homo sapiens to just one single drive is a mistake...

[13:33] herman Bergson: If you look at the construction of our brain then you learn that we are mainly driven by basic emotions like fear and joy

[13:34] herman Bergson: Like most animals do...

[13:34] Ajatar (alpheratz): we are animals

[13:34] herman Bergson: Besides that we do a lot of things that have no effect on our evolution of gen survival at all

[13:35] herman Bergson: We like to have a religion....

[13:35] herman Bergson: Ever seen a religious monkey.....needing religion for his survival for instance ? ^_^

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): genes are simple agents and can only push us in certain directions. They don't totally define us even if they would wish to

[13:36] Ajatar (alpheratz): I did see elephants caring for dead elephants

[13:36] herman Bergson: and even that direction is a mystery Merlin.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Aja....animals have emotions....

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well at least we can dismiss egoism as our main motive in life....

[13:38] herman Bergson: the driving power...

[13:38] herman Bergson: In fact we are rather kind to each other and cooperative....

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: thank god we are

[13:39] herman Bergson: Brings us to the question.....WHY are we preferably lieke that.....what makes us tick?

[13:39] herman Bergson: Let's have a look at that question next Thursday :-)

[13:40] Ajatar (alpheratz): mmm religion have many meanings. From control of the society to other things. Ancient people had their mythic origin, telling that they where better than others. There was the survival of a group against other. Religion had a series of rules to make the society better in theory

[13:40] herman Bergson: Unless you still have an urgent question I thank you all for your participation again:-)

[13:40] herman Bergson: Indeed Aja....

[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Nobody is moving ;)

[13:41] Ajatar (alpheratz): :)

[13:41] herman Bergson: Especially this WE and the OTHERS plays an important role.....also still today

[13:41] herman Bergson: It seems to be an important feeling for us...

[13:41] Ciska Riverstone: control

[13:42] herman Bergson: to feel WE...

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sings: ♬ We Shall not be moved ♬ lol

[13:42] herman Bergson: WHole nations have this WE feeling against the rest of the world for instance

[13:42] herman Bergson: Glue on the seats Merlin :-))

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hahaha

[13:42] Ajatar (alpheratz): I would like that this "we" could be extended to all the people in the world. Not you would say that it is selfish because we all we live in a more peaceful world and I think so :)

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

[13:43] Ajatar (alpheratz): * "Now" nor "not"

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Aja....this WE feeling is in fact pretty disrupting in our world

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I have to go...thank you Herman and have a goodnight

[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: bye beertje

[13:43] herman Bergson: ok Beertje take care

[13:43] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Beertje

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye bye:)

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: TC Beertje

[13:44] Ajatar (alpheratz): bye bye Beertje

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think I will go too. I will probably log out soon

[13:44] herman Bergson: We'll discuss this "WE" issue in another lecture mor extensively

[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: bye Merlin

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye everyone

[13:45] Ajatar (alpheratz): see you Merlin

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: me too, Tc and good night everybody!

[13:45] herman Bergson: Bye Merlin :-)

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: good night Lizzy

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: waves*

[13:45] herman Bergson: Bye Lizzy ^_^

[13:45] Ajatar (alpheratz): yes it is especially destructive when it becomes "we" against "them"

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: otherwise a we is a nice thing

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: ;)

[13:46] herman Bergson: just look at soccer supporters....

[13:46] Ajatar (alpheratz): yes, exactly

[13:46] Ajatar (alpheratz): or with parties

[13:46] herman Bergson: or religions....

[13:46] Ajatar (alpheratz): yeah

[13:46] herman Bergson: we and the pagans

[13:47] herman Bergson: it is an amazing phenomenon which you find though all levels in society

[13:47] Ajatar (alpheratz): and religion can be a good tool for that. We are with God. They are against us, so they are against God, maybe they are inspired by the devil

[13:47] herman Bergson: oh yes....

[13:47] Ajatar (alpheratz): so you can demonize others easily

[13:47] herman Bergson: But it begins already at an early ages....

[13:48] herman Bergson: boys against girls at primary school...

[13:48] Ajatar (alpheratz): hehe right

[13:49] herman Bergson: But animals have the same instinct....

[13:49] Ajatar (alpheratz): yes

[13:49] herman Bergson: But here is something interesting....

[13:49] herman Bergson: chimpanzees are really aggressive against others.....

[13:49] Ajatar (alpheratz): chimpanzee make "war" too

[13:49] herman Bergson: they easily murder and kill those who are not US

[13:50] herman Bergson: yes

[13:50] Ajatar (alpheratz): yes :)

[13:50] herman Bergson: Onthe other hand...the Bonobo is a very social monkey....

[13:50] Ajatar (alpheratz): true

[13:50] herman Bergson: even easily willing to share food with a stranger

[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: Farnk de Waal did experiments.....

[13:51] Ajatar (alpheratz): to what monkey do you think we are more closer?

[13:51] Ajatar (alpheratz): hehe

[13:51] herman Bergson: one bonobo in a room with to transparent doors.....

[13:51] herman Bergson: behind one was a member of his group behind the other was a stranger....

[13:52] herman Bergson: When given food the bonobo perferred to open the door for the stranger....

[13:52] herman Bergson: probably was making new contacts more important to him

[13:52] Ajatar (alpheratz): so sweet

[13:52] Ajatar (alpheratz): we can empathize with other animals too

[13:53] herman Bergson: and I guess we are a mix of chimp and bonobo :-)

[13:53] Ajatar (alpheratz): I agree with that :)

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: very likely ㋡

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: have a good night there

[13:53] herman Bergson: You two too :-))

[13:53] Ciska Riverstone: thanx ㋡

452: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 17

We already discussed extensively the assumption that our ability to moral behavior has its roots in the animal kingdom, in other words, in evolution.

The belief that the homo sapiens is some exception in nature, the idea that he is more than just a part of nature, of evolution, is a misconception.

We have moral instincts, which are very old, probably even older than our language and culture. With respect to these views the bio philosophers are in agreement with each other.

The second issue: "Is our moral behavior the consequence of selfish calculating genes?" is a more complicated question.

To quote from an article (1985) of Richard Alexander:

"(..) the interests of an individual human (i.e., the directions of its striving) are expected to be toward ensuring the indefinite survival of its genes and their copies, whether these are resident in the individual, its descendants, or its collateral relatives. 

In today's novelty-filled environments, human activities may often be directed in ways that do not in fact lead to increased success in reproduction or the perpetuation of one's own genes. 

Moreover, people aware of their background in evolution may be able to use conscious reflection and deliberate decisions to live their lives contrary to, or irrespective of, whatever their evolutionary background has prepared them to be. 

Neither of these possibilities, however, affects the essential certainty that humans have evolved to maximize survival of their genes through reproduction. "

-end quote-

Scientists like William Hamilton, Matt Ridley and Robert Wright come to the same conclusion: Our psyche is controlled by calculations of genetic advantage even when we are not aware of it.

Although we are apparently such calculating animals, we are often surprisingly nice to each other. And you hardly can ignore the enormous potential for cooperation.

How to explain that within this selfish gene context? And why does cooperation make sense evolutionary? 

Their solution: theorize the biological advantage of cooperation out without leaving just a spark of goodness in the human nature.

Keep in mind that we are dealing here with the 1980s. The victory of neoliberalism, Randism and individualism. The era of the grand concerto of selfishness.

It is really remarkable to see how in so many fields this paradigm is adopted. This all is in concerto with Sociobiology, 

a field of scientific study which is based on the assumption that social behavior has resulted from evolution and attempts to explain and examine social behavior within that context and made popular again by E.O. Wilson in 1975 with is book "Sociobiology: The New Synthesis".

Sociobiologists believe that human behavior, as well as nonhuman animal behavior, can be partly explained as the outcome of natural selection. 

They contend that in order to fully understand behavior, it must be analyzed in terms of evolutionary considerations.

Foundations of this approach to human nature were laid by Robert L. Trivers (1943 - …), an American evolutionary biologist and sociobiologist, who is a Professor of Anthropology and Biological Sciences at Rutgers University, New Jersey USA.

He incorporated in a scientific theory something we all know, and yet don't feel 100% comfortable with: "I only help you, if you will help me too", or to say it in a more academic way:

"In evolutionary biology, reciprocal altruism is a behaviour whereby an organism acts in a manner that temporarily reduces its fitness 

while increasing another organism's fitness, with the expectation that the other organism will act in a similar manner at a later time." (Wiki)

As Trivers says: "Altruism is an investment in a capital which is called trust, and later pays nice dividends in the form of other people's generosity . 

Therefore, the cooperative human is anything but truly altruistic, he only has in mind more emphatically  long-term self-interest than on the short-term."

This leaves us with the question: Are we really all Egoists, where we could call the long-term "altruists" the smart group, which not easily will be exposed as cheaters. (See diagram)

The Discussion

[13:33] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:34] herman Bergson: Take your time to think it over....

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There were a couple of things I didn't completely agree with in that

[13:34] herman Bergson: That is how it should be Merlin ^_^

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But I am not sure I can express myself clearly just now

[13:35] herman Bergson: just give it a try

[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i also think this is not a constant way of thinking ... i think it changes

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Mainly the conclusion of that long quote. I thought the interpretation of it was wrong somehow

[13:35] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): different ages

[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): different circumstances

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): My question: If survival of the fittest is happening now (evolution) how come there are such massive threats to our species existence? eg Nuclear bombs, and over consumption?

[13:36] herman Bergson: the basic idea here is that were are basically selfish caused by our genes

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): which require huge cooperation?

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...that is what I already said in the previous lecture...

[13:37] herman Bergson: if our genes are so selfish to fight for their survival...

[13:37] herman Bergson: why do we smoke and drink alcohol and love to be a couch potato..:-)

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): Our genes don't understand maybe ;)

[13:38] herman Bergson: and ok..those bombs as nice extras to survival :-)

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Genes don't really care what happens to us after we have reproduced (if)

[13:38] herman Bergson: the quintessential question here is...What is human nature?

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): Maybe "amplified reality" (greed and free market) is causing us to fail slowly...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: seems we make all we can to kill each other instead at least in many parts of the world

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): good thought merlin

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ty :)

[13:39] herman Bergson: True Merlin....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Question is only ...are those sociobiologist right....

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: but some smoke and drink before reproducing

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes and while pregnant they don't smoke and drink at all ^_^

[13:40] herman Bergson: for 9 months :-))

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): most dont

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): Having more stuff seems more important than survival - the greedy selfish gene.

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: and many do it despite of knowing that it is unhealthy

[13:42] herman Bergson: what makes me feel uncomfortable is this biological view

[13:42] herman Bergson: I mena....

[13:42] herman Bergson: you always are right when you say that genes control you even 

 when you are not aware of it...

[13:43] herman Bergson: SUch an approach brings up many questions...

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh wait I know the answer.... the planet is just too small.... we will die back like successful hungry bacteria in a petri dish

[13:43] herman Bergson: do we have free will or are we jus tour genes?

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): and then the fittest survive

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i agree with merlin

[13:43] herman Bergson: If it is just our genes...can there be ethics?

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): until we are born

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and physical problems

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): maybe mental

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:44] herman Bergson: I begin to wonder what the mental is gemma...if it is the genes that control my real life apparently

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Can we help our genes to make kinder selections? Teach them to reason....

[13:45] herman Bergson: I htink the big question is....

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well that is if we believe that only our brain is it

[13:45] herman Bergson: as homo sapiens we are part of nature...yes...ok....

[13:46] herman Bergson: but..isn't there really nothing that makes us unique in relation to nature?

[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well Debbie, teaching genes is what happens when we breed certain animals, selectively

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): then the environment comes in and who brings us up in life

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: well only we have a spoken language and can build and use machines to help ourselves for ex

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): extra furry cats etc

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes merlin...

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are aware of ourselves..that's what makes us unique

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: no other species make use of machinery in any way

[13:47] herman Bergson: Got a point there Beertje....

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: of

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): All animals seem to be aware of themselves

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: seems logical

[13:47] herman Bergson: and then those genes...what or who controls them...and their changes…

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: my intuition says that about 80 - 90 % of our decisions are dominated by the genes and the rest it free will probably

[13:48] herman Bergson: no Debbie there you are mistaken

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): Most of our decisions in the first world are made by commerce for us.

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: well many animals handle only but instinct

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hard programmed unchanged behaviour

[13:48] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita

[13:48] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think we should be careful to underestimate other animals

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Some people say they cannot feel pain etc

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: for example all salmons and fish in general follow exactly the same life cycle

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Awareness of humans, recognition of a friend, love - my cat does that

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: programmed into them from birth

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: so no frree will

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): my cat talks, asks for attention,

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: and same with bees and flies

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Plays with its prey

[13:50] herman Bergson: We love to think that Debbie.....that is what pets are for...

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think we are deluded to think we are the only self aware creatures.

[13:50] herman Bergson: but from a behavioral point of view their behavior is 100% predicatble...

[13:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes I agree with you on this Debbie

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): The elephants talk to each other, and have huge brains.

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: memory like an elephant u use to say

[13:51] herman Bergson: hold on....!!!!

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): And what about whales and dolphins?

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: guess thats why the Evernote software use an elephant as logotype

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): whales have the biggest brains on the planet.

[13:51] herman Bergson: Self awareness is not a specific characteristic of the homo sapiens only....

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes herman ;)

[13:51] herman Bergson: some primates have self awareness...and dolphins and elephants...

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): For some reason the ratio of brain size to body size is regarded as important, but I am not sure why

[13:52] herman Bergson: no Merlin..it is the shape of the brain....

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): agreed herman

[13:52] herman Bergson: I guess 90% of our brain is identical to that of other primates...

[13:53] herman Bergson: they only lack the prefrontal lobes...

[13:53] herman Bergson: and exactly there is where our personality, identity resides

[13:53] herman Bergson: or to say it in an other way....

[13:54] herman Bergson: 90% of our behavior can be compared with general primate behavior...

[13:54] herman Bergson: fear, joy, rage...etc...

[13:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): using tools

[13:55] herman Bergson: because these emotions reside in the limbic system...

[13:55] herman Bergson: a part of the brain we share with amy other organisms

[13:55] herman Bergson: But the question is...are we such egoists....?

[13:56] herman Bergson: I'll get to that next Tuesday then ^_^

[13:56] Lizzy Pleides: can't wait :-)

[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have to go...thank you Herman:)

[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again....^_^

[13:57] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: nice one again ㋡

[13:57] Bejiita Imako:  \o/

[13:57] Bejiita Imako:    ||   Hoooo!

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:57] Vadaman: Thank you Herman.

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: cu all soon

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:57] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): maybe i will be able to make it tuesday

[13:57] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks sir.... lots of food for thought.

[13:57] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): will see

[13:57] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:57] Debbie Dee (framdor): bye friends...

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody!

[13:57] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:57] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): for now

[13:57] Debbie Dee (framdor): and bye Herman...

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: why did u said that, im hungry as well i remember now

[13:58] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye everyone

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: well been out throwing bowling balls before so

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡

[13:58] herman Bergson: bye all