The previous lecture ended with the question of whether there are similarities between cultures when it comes to art and beauty. Do people independently have the same ideas about this?
Let us discuss the need of people to make the picture really resemble the depicted, the "realistic" effect, so to speak.
Western ideas about likeliness in art go back to the Ancient Greeks. We only find written sources with Pliny the Elder (29 -79 A.D.). He speaks of a continuous line in art, which according to him can be described as a striving to depict the world as lifelike as possible
In China too we find the concept of likeliness as a condition for good art. A Chinese art theoretician, Xie He, already described several principles that fine art had to meet around 500 A.D.
He discusses the striving for lifelikeness. Only if there is a resemblance to the subject can we speak of fine art.
But there is more than this requirement of likeness when it comes to art. Since ancient times, people have been aware of the experience that art evokes.
For example, if you see a painting of a cow, the experience may be "Oh, that's a cow, nice", but the painting may also be a "Holy Cow!!! How is it possible?" evoked in the viewer.
Or to quote from the text "On the Sublime" (first century AD): [it is so that] "what is beautiful is always accompanied by a feeling of dismay and bewilderment, which prevails over what is only convincing and pleasant".
The idea that the beautiful rises above the ordinary is found in many art-theoretical texts. Similarity with the subject is sometimes sung about, but more important is the rapture that the work of art brings about.
There are two interesting observations in this regard. The first is, although there are different opinions about it, that no living beings, people and animals may be depicted in Islamic art.
The depiction of people and animals only leads to idolatry, is an objection from the Quran. I will not go into this further, but it is always fun to investigate further.
A second observation is abstract art. What should we think of that. A great deal of that art looks like nothing.
Abstract Art is also known as Nonrepresentational Art, which is art without figurative and recognizable representation. Abstract Art is typically in two styles;
forms that have been abstracted and inspired by nature but depicted in such a manner that they no longer reveal a predictable reality, and subjective, or pure abstract art forms, which have no reference to reality to begin with.
Abstract art originated in Europe. At the end of the 19th century, the Impressionists began their visual experiments. My personal interpretation is this:
at the same time, photography was developed, but in other words, the painter had to do more than make lifelike paintings
and with the increasing individualism in Western culture, this became for the Impressionists "more" their personal experience of observing nature. In their case, it was mainly the aesthetic experience.
The First and Second World Wars put an end to all that was "beautiful" in man and the balance shifted even further towards the depiction of personal, sometimes raw, experience and emotion.
This is a very brief summary of ideas, so there is enough material to think about it yourself
Nowadays, experiences of beauty are the result of neurocognitive processes, which can be analyzed using brain scans.
In these scans, test subjects are exposed to various works of art, and patterns in their brain activity are searched for, which are compared with their brain activity during other experiences.
You can already imagine it: the art critic visits an exhibition with a kind of neuroscan helmet on his head and an AI part in the helmet sends his experiences of the art to a printer on top of the helmet.
Although the nature of aesthetic experiences is far from being fully understood, the pursuit of beauty is a universal form of giving meaning to life that we encounter in all times and cultures.
Thank you for your attention again....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
[14:11] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[14:12] Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Herman.
[14:13] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:13] herman Bergson: So we all have that ability to experience real beauty, it seems
[14:13] Max Chatnoir: So did they say that people process are differently than they process photography?
[14:13] Max Chatnoir: art
[14:14] herman Bergson: That is a bit confusing Max, for at The Academy we also had a Photography department
[14:14] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[14:14] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think that beauty is for everyone different
[14:15] herman Bergson: Photography can be art to today
[14:15] Max Chatnoir: Beauty in faces has been associated with symmetry.
[14:15] herman Bergson: Yes, in a way it is a subjective experience....
[14:15] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i guess
[14:15] Max Chatnoir: And maybe it's the same with the rest of the body.
[14:15] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman, how nice, that I did not miss your lecture despite my lateness
[14:15] herman Bergson: but so is pain, Beertje...yet everyone knows what pain is....does this count for beauty too?
[14:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the experience of pain can be different for everyone
[14:16] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think that counts for beauty too
[14:16] herman Bergson: yes...maybe differ in degree of pain tolerance....
[14:17] herman Bergson: but yet...pain is a concept we all know and recognize
[14:17] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[14:17] herman Bergson: so I wonder...does that count for beauty too?
[14:17] herman Bergson: even though it is subjective
[14:18] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what I like doesn't have to be your interest
[14:19] herman Bergson: That is the point of this neuroscience research....
[14:20] herman Bergson: you should take people from all cultures and show them something that is called art of beautiful...
[14:20] Max Chatnoir: So did the people produce different pictures, looking at the same images?
[14:20] herman Bergson: will there exist such a thing that evokes the same brain activity in all different individuals?
[14:21] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe some don't care about beauty
[14:22] Max Chatnoir: Well, I can believe that different people would process different images differently.
[14:22] Max Chatnoir: But there must be some similarities.
[14:23] herman Bergson: Yes Max, but shich???
[14:23] herman Bergson: I really begin to wonder how to figure that out
[14:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[14:23] Max Chatnoir: That's why I was asking what they said when they looked at the recordings.
[14:23] Max Chatnoir: saw
[14:24] Max Chatnoir: Were there any patterns at all?
[14:24] herman Bergson: The research I referred to was looking at brain activity of individuals....
[14:24] herman Bergson: is there a distinct area in the brain active for instance in such cases
[14:25] Max Chatnoir: But they are all looking at the same objects?
[14:25] herman Bergson: This neuroscientific research is still in tis infancy
[14:25] herman Bergson: I guess so, yes, but I don't know the details Max
[14:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[14:26] Max Chatnoir: I don't think that brain activity is strongly localized. A lot of the brain is working for a lot of different experiences.
[14:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is there a difference between male and woman?
[14:26] herman Bergson: I rest my case Beertje :-)
[14:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i mean in experience beauty
[14:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[14:27] herman Bergson: I have no information on that Beertje :-)
[14:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i know some men are in awe at some bolts....i don't feel that way:)
[14:28] Max Chatnoir: Lots left to learn!
[14:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[14:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): wel
[14:28] Max Chatnoir: bolts?
[14:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): tools,
[14:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like how i like to do welding and mechanical stuff?
[14:28] herman Bergson: yeah...what do you mean...ahh tools
[14:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): schroeven, bouten...
[14:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa
[14:29] herman Bergson: I feel no affection for those objects either Beertje :-)
[14:29] herman Bergson: And if it is a nail, I hit it on the head :-)
[14:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins
[14:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well it is an artwork in itself
[14:30] Max Chatnoir: I must admit that i love it when I get exactly the right screwdriver for a job.
[14:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): see?
[14:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): or a car show
[14:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I'm not sure those pins i sharpened on the lathe today at work count as art, i remember while i did it however the process looked just like a pencil sharpener but with metal
[14:30] herman Bergson: oh my
[14:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that's one thought i had then
[14:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): + it got very hot so the turnings had all these nice blye and red colors as they came off
[14:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is that art or just work?
[14:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the purpose was not art however at the moment
[14:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's an art to work that way Bejiita:)
[14:32] Max Chatnoir: Certainly an aesthetic experience.
[14:32] herman Bergson: If there was a clear-cut definition of art, I could answer your question Bejiita
[14:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa i just thought like that when i saw it
[14:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so that's one thing
[14:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is there a clear definition of art?
[14:33] herman Bergson: you can feel joy about what you are creating Bejiita
[14:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i am a creator so
[14:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): whether at work, coding games or practice my breakdance skills
[14:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): or play golf
[14:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[14:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that season is over now
[14:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but i have stuff enough to do
[14:34] bergfrau Apfelbaum: Art is what you like. If the artist is already dead, it is usually more expensive
[14:34] Max Chatnoir: golf has a season?
[14:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im one of those guys who can't stand being bored
[14:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): in Sweden, hard play golf in cold and snow
[14:35] Max Chatnoir: That makes sense.
[14:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so here its summer sport only
[14:35] Max Chatnoir: I've lived in Texas too long...
[14:35] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ´like RL Gacha
[14:37] herman Bergson: Well. guess we still have to figure out how to define beauty and art.....
[14:37] herman Bergson: Your homework :-)))
[14:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I try create some more in a while
[14:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): after we flipped some cards?
[14:38] Max Chatnoir: OK, we are meeting Thursday, but not next week, correct?
[14:38] herman Bergson: So for all of you except Max, next Thursday we begin at 21:00h
[14:38] herman Bergson: And next week Election vacation indeed Max
[14:39] Max Chatnoir: OK, thanks for a good talk and interesting conversation!
[14:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes nice again
[14:39] herman Bergson: So, thank you all again....
[14:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you Herman and class!
[14:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yay
[14:39] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...
[14:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it was a success in the end!
[14:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman:))))
[14:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[14:39] herman Bergson: Indeed Bejiita,
[14:39] Max Chatnoir: See you all Thursday!
