419: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism: the body as private property

The main goal of this series of lectures is to question the idea, that everything has a price, that everything eventually can be bought and sold.

-

What I mean to show is, that the belief in the free market has penetrated areas of life where it does not belong, like social and medical care, education, family life, the government and other areas.

-

Stated in other words: is the basic structure of our social world a matter of personal freedom, private property, production and the exchange of goods and services by buying and selling?

-

We already saw two examples which raised serious doubts: the libertarian view of self-ownership and values of fairness and equality which used to dominate situations, where we have to stand in queue.

In 1997 Barbara Harris founded the non-profit organization "Project Prevention". On its website its goal is formulated a little vague:

-quote- "Project Prevention does not have the resources to combat the national problems of poverty, housing, nutrition, education and rehabilitation services. 

Those resources we do have are spent to PREVENT a problem for $300 rather than paying millions after it happens in cost to care for a potentially damaged child." -end quote-

In fact is means, that drugs addicted women receive US$ 300 after they have let themselves sterilized, so that they never will give birth to another child.

From the perspective of the free market philosophy this looks like a sound enterprise. It concerns an agreement between private persons in which there is no coercion, but only freedom of choice.

As a free market transaction the agreement offers a profit for both parties and increases public welfare. The drugs addict receives US$ 300 for her or his reproductive capacity.

And the buyer get for his money the certainty that the addict won't put (disabled or addicted) children in the world anymore.

Everybody happy, it seems, but yet this project received a lot of serious criticism. Let us look at a few arguments against this market transaction.

Is the addicted really free in her choice? That addiction and poverty and the need for a new kick drives her to go for the money no matter what this will cost her, is one of the objections.

This means that to assess  the moral permissibility of a market transaction  we will therefore have to ask: Under what conditions offers the situation in the market freedom of choice and under what conditions do they exert coercion?

An other objection is that of corruption. It is not about the conditions under which an agreement is concluded, but about the nature of what is being bought or sold.

It is a perfectly free transaction when a thief gives money to a judge to "buy" a not-guilty verdict. What happens here is, that something is bought or sold, which not ought to be bought or sold.

Corruption is not only a matter of bribes. We also corrupt some object, activity or social behavior, when we put a lower price on it than is appropriate.

To give an extreme example: to sell your baby just for the money is corrupting what we value as parenthood and loving care for a child, 

because thus you treat your child only as a product in stead of treating it as a human being who is entitled to the love and care of his parents.

In this situation Harris regards the addicted mother simply as a malfunctioning baby machine. Women who accept the US$ 300 offer accept this humiliating judgement.

You could object that a judge sells a verdict, which you can not regard as his property, while a women owns her body and thus her fertility. Then it is a normal transaction, not corruption of a value.

This leaves us with the fundamental question: Are we allowed to regard our body as private property with which we can do as we please?

In this context I want to remind you of my previous lecture dealing with the libertarians concept of self-ownership. Is it morally justifiable to buy that second kidney of that man, who needs money to get his son to college?

The discussion

[13:26] herman Bergson: thank you ^_^

[13:26] Kime Babenco: Look what happened recently in that factory in China !

[13:26] herman Bergson: Ho Qwark :-)

[13:27] Qwark Allen: ㋡ ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•   Helloooooo!  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜   ㋡

[13:27] Qwark Allen: Hey!

[13:27] herman Bergson: sneaked in :-)

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:27] Qwark Allen: seems i got here on time

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:27] Qwark Allen: ehhehe

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i did not even see him come

[13:27] herman Bergson: neither did I ^_^

[13:27] Qwark Allen: was fast ^^

[13:27] herman Bergson: anyway.....

[13:27] Qwark Allen: theme for today is corruption?

[13:27] herman Bergson: what is at stake here is the idea of buying and selling...

[13:28] Valcyrie: surrogate mothers

[13:28] herman Bergson: can we buy the fertility of a woman....or can she sell it actually

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Valcerie....that is a related issue...same problems

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): moral issue

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wow

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman, you have clearly demonstrated that some things should not, morally , be bought or sold. Personal freedom of choice is compromised by the financial transactions

[13:28] herman Bergson: or selling eggs or sperm...

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....

[13:29] Kime Babenco: Corruption is one of the hardest things  to get down...

[13:29] herman Bergson: But still there is a strong belief in the universla benifits of the free market....

[13:29] herman Bergson: and the idea that the government is the problem

[13:30] Kime Babenco: If the Police is corrupt then you are in a bad situation

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Kime.....that is really bad

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Money is just so tempting, and it doesn't seem to matter if you already have a lot.

[13:30] Valcyrie: if you have no laws you are also in a bad way

[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is talked about every day here as the answer to everything

[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the free market that is

[13:30] Kime Babenco: Politicians as well, though I hardly believe innon corrupt politicians...

[13:31] Kime Babenco: Maybe it's not called so, and maybe not immeadiatly money involved

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....it is a tough belief....

[13:31] Kime Babenco: But in some way

[13:31] herman Bergson: penetrating all areas of life

[13:31] Kime Babenco: Like if you help me here, I will help you there...

[13:31] herman Bergson: from a market economy we move to a market controlled economy...

[13:31] herman Bergson: where everything is for sale and canbe bought

[13:32] Qwark Allen: do you think corruption and free market are somehow "related"?

[13:32] Kime Babenco: I would ask if you could ver disconnect hose two ?

[13:32] herman Bergson: well..Qwark....if money is the only grease the machinery of society needs

[13:32] Kime Babenco: ever*?

[13:32] herman Bergson: Just take the bankers....

[13:32] Qwark Allen: i see your point

[13:32] herman Bergson: the are no crooks or corrupt..

[13:33] herman Bergson: but...

[13:33] herman Bergson: they say...

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): The free market and corruption are completely related - free market means you can buy anything for a price

[13:33] Qwark Allen: corruption we know starts at the highest level

[13:33] herman Bergson: I can sell whatever derivatives I can construct...how sick they are whatsoever...

[13:33] Qwark Allen: true

[13:33] herman Bergson: as long as there is no rule which forbids it..it is allowed

[13:34] Valcyrie: deregulation

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): and even if the rule forbids it - it is done if profitable.

[13:34] herman Bergson: where then the question "Is it morally allowed too?" stays unanswered

[13:34] Qwark Allen: this means there are several kind and severity of corruption

[13:34] Qwark Allen: depending on the "goodies" being trade

[13:34] Valcyrie: and ways to get loopholes into laws when you have enough "influence"

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark.....

[13:35] Valcyrie: loopholes make corruption legal

[13:35] Kime Babenco: You might think the resident of USA is the most powerful person on Earth... He can't even pass the health care (or in a weakened version)

[13:35] herman Bergson: you could say that....

[13:35] Kime Babenco: He's a puppet on a string somehow

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes Kime...

13:35] Qwark Allen: seems nowadays its what governments are , in the habds of the bankers

[13:35] Qwark Allen: hands*

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): And lawyers retained within large corporations, to persuade people that what they do is right, and lobbying to change laws to suit

[13:36] Kime Babenco: At to response to the question , in fact , almost everything is for sale... and that's a pity

[13:37] Kime Babenco: Morals and money does not combine very well

[13:37] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:37] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:37] herman Bergson: not only a debate on economics

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): Moral values are easily corrupted by money. Everyone supposedly has a price.

[13:38] herman Bergson: That is what is happening Debbie.....

[13:38] herman Bergson: Even the chance that you die is worth a lot of money....

[13:38] herman Bergson: our death has become an economic value....

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): Corporations can do anything, including killing a few people, as long as they make a profit.

[13:39] herman Bergson: I'll get to that later but to give yo an example.....

[13:39] Qwark Allen: very expensive one for sure

[13:39] Kime Babenco: LIfe insurances... for example

[13:39] herman Bergson: Exactly Kime!

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:39] herman Bergson: But even one step further....

[13:39] herman Bergson: Just leisten.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: listen...

[13:40] herman Bergson: I am going to die because of a fata disease....

[13:40] herman Bergson: say...I still have 1.5 year left...

[13:40] herman Bergson: I take a life insurance of 1 million dollar....

[13:40] herman Bergson: I cant pay the fee of course...]

[13:41] herman Bergson: but I sell this insurance to an investor for 500.000 dollar....

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): (Laughing out Loud) herman

[13:41] Kime Babenco: If they ever find out you knew about it before you started it, it is invalid... not counting

[13:41] herman Bergson: He will pay the fees...till I die..then he gets the one million!

[13:42] herman Bergson: and I can have a happy ending spending 500.000 dollar in my last year on earth

[13:42] herman Bergson: This happens!

[13:42] herman Bergson: even worse....

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): sounds good to me

[13:42] Qwark Allen: goood stuff

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:42] herman Bergson: A lot of Aids patients did this....

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and are still living

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): Because we all dislike insurance companies, this seems like an appealing idea. And profitable. To hell with morals I say!!!!

[13:43] herman Bergson: but unfortunately for the investors there were developed new medicines...

[13:43] Kime Babenco: Insurances are not here to help you , but to collect money ! Just like other, like bankers... Most insurances are at banks by the way, which should not be...

[13:43] herman Bergson: which increased the life expectancy of th eaids victims....

[13:44] Kime Babenco: Bankers should be bankers and insuarnces , be insurance

[13:44] herman Bergson: Investors even started to send e-mail......to their "investment"

[13:44] herman Bergson: How do you feel today???

[13:44] herman Bergson: When do you think it will be over????

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): omg! how awful.

[13:45] Qwark Allen: omg

[13:45] herman Bergson: It happens in the US....

[13:45] Kime Babenco: It will be over (in a kind of way) when the entire world becomse like animal farm... lol

[13:45] herman Bergson: Compamies that buy life insurances for their empyees....

[13:46] herman Bergson: not to pay to them...but to collect when the employee dies in an accident for instance...

[13:46] herman Bergson: especiallly when they have risky jobs

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): Key man insurance - to buy the next executive...

[13:46] herman Bergson: yes, Debbie

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): It is all a bit bizarre already.

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very

[13:48] herman Bergson: But we only can have this discussion when we know that there still are other moral values out there

[13:48] Kime Babenco: I someone of us had enough money ... then just say what is not for sale in this life...

[13:48] herman Bergson: friendship for instance kime...

[13:48] herman Bergson: True love and sincere loyalty...

[13:48] herman Bergson: Respect...

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): So, what needs to change to make us behave more fairly, and less like piggies at the trough?

[13:49] Kime Babenco: Yes, true friendship, but when you find out ?

[13:49] herman Bergson: To answer your question Debbie....

[13:50] herman Bergson: you yourself are already the answer....

[13:50] Valcyrie: what does the phrase ... God is Love... mean in that context

[13:50] Kime Babenco: If you win 50 million US$ tomorrow by the lMega Sena (lotteria) and you go out you will have plenty of friens

[13:50] herman Bergson: by having discussions like this...

[13:50] herman Bergson: worldwide...

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): We need more friends, more leisure time, less tv, and lots of hugs, and lunch :)

[13:50] herman Bergson: yes Debbie...

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:51] Kime Babenco: It's good you take time to follow this course for a start ;-)

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): You can't buy real friends. You need to earn those.

[13:52] herman Bergson: Well Valcyrie..., sometimes I have the idea, that religions are expressions of what we know that is actually missing in all social relations and interactions in this world...

[13:52] herman Bergson: grins...

[13:52] Kime Babenco: You can't buy real friendship… indeed... But rich people have easier making friends than poor people...

[13:52] herman Bergson: maybe I should make an exception for kinds of fundamentalism

[13:52] Valcyrie: i agree

[13:53] Valcyrie: love one another

[13:53] Kime Babenco: You only know real friends when you are in trouble... (is a saying) Not that I wish one of you to find out

[13:53] herman Bergson: Like we have language to communicate but poetry to reveal the beauty of language

[13:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): Kime, in the poorer parts of south africa people still live in tight communities, and family and friends are everything.

[13:53] Valcyrie: nietzsche says...we have art so we do not die of the truth

[13:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): rich people can buy acquaintences at bars and clubs.

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:54] Kime Babenco: I can understand Debbie... When there is not much , there s not much to lose

[13:54] herman Bergson: in bars and clubs?

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:55] herman Bergson: You could loose your virginity ^_^

[13:55] Catt (catt.gable): very nice, herman

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in sl bars and clubs

[13:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): (Laughing oulol

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): have to get going

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you thursday

[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again....

[13:55] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:55] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:55] herman Bergson: I think we make good progress ^__^

[13:55] Qwark Allen: was great class as usual

[13:55] Qwark Allen: very enlightning

[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...

418: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism: corrupting fairness

As some of you may know, the State of the Union is an annual address presented by the President of the United States to the United States Congress.

-

We have something like that on the third Tuesday of September. Then the Dutch queen delivers a speech, of course written by those who are politically responsible. She is just an ornament.

-

But they made her say something that concerns us seriously here. 

-QUOTE-

"The growth of the global economy remains below expectations."

-

Just think this over: 

One: Why has there to be growth, while already a number of economists have said, that we live on a planet with limited resources and that striving for unlimited growth is irresponsible and in fact insane.

-

Two: 'below expectations' Whose expectations ? Ours? Who formulates these expectations and why and what are the standards? 

-

Here again you see how the free market economy is taken as an obvious fact without any criticism. Production, consumption and a permanent growth of these two is almost a religious belief in the capitalist society.

- 

Is the market economy THE ultimate system, that is consistent with what we experience as human values? Values we cherish, because they are at the root of our welfare and happiness and make use human in stead of consumers.

-

Let me be straight. No, the market economy is not the best or only system to do justice to all men. Even more emphatically, 

-

it can be argued that in some cases this system even corrupts our moral values and that we therefore seriously have to reconsider our human condition with respect to the belief in the free market.

-

The basic question is: Can money buy everything, like in the Atlantis of Ayn Rand love relations in fact were contracts, regulating the exchange of services in a relation like love, sex, affection and mutual support?

-

Let's begin with a simple issue: jumping the queue. When I flew with Ryan Air some time ago, I paid some extra. This allowed me to board the plane as one of the first while others had to wait in a long queue.

-

Unfair? I paid extra for it. Well…. I saw those looks of people in the other queue…. Here we already can make two observations.

-

One: here we are confronted with inequality based on the fact that I have the money to pay for the extra and others haven't.

-

Second: there is also a corrupting effect on certain values. Waiting in a queue is accepted by poor and rich. It has an egalitarian, democratic meaning. 

-

We all have to wait for our turn. We experience that as a social value, not as a good that should be bought and sold on the market. 

-

Of course, this example of my flight looks trivial, but this market effect goes much further. Lobbyists need access to politicians. They do so by attending all kinds of meetings of committees of Congress in the US.

-

But a lot of people want to attend these meetings, so you have to be early and stand in line for hours before the meeting begins.

-

The lobbyists, however, pay people to stand in line for them and exchange places just before the meeting begins. This means that a democratic  and equal right to attend such meetings has become a commodity on the market.

-

Physicians, who "sell" there mobil phone number for US$15.000 a year, which means that the patient can call him directly and get an appointment the same day. So, no equal accessibility of medic care.

-

Standing in line - and you can think of any situation where it applies - represents a social value of respecting equal chances for everyone in certain situations, whether you are poor and rich.

-

This is just in a nutshell a first example, which draws our attention to the fact that the increasing influence of money and the free market is penetrating areas, which once were dominated by non-commercial values.

The Discussion

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: thats not good

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you,,, ^_^

[13:22] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): Everything has a price these days.

[13:23] Qwark Allen: seems so

[13:23] herman Bergson: If you have any question or remark...the floor is yours :-)

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Herman .

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-0

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:23] Qwark Allen: even human life seems to have now a price, and seems very in the low side

[13:23] Kime Babenco: Thanks professor Herman

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie and that is a bad thing....

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: and greed show no limit these days, now i read in the morning something that made me jump high

[13:23] Qwark Allen: there is no democracy, as we have been seeing in the last classes

[13:24] herman Bergson: Telll us Bejiita

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: Apple sues a polish apple grower named p,le cause name sounds similar and have an apple as a logo

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: thats SICK!

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): I sometimes thin, if you look at world debt, we need growth every year to pay the interest, and the capital is beyond redemption. It is a big ponzy scheme!

[13:24] Qwark Allen: its just another example how the bankers cracy corrupted all society

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: grrr i get so tired of this, Apple behave like a kid sitting in a sand box throwing sand and mud at everyone comes close

[13:25] herman Bergson: It is not just the bankers.....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: and its a shame on a company that makes good products

[13:25] Qwark Allen: we usually say, that the example comes from the top

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: then they behave like swines and try take over the world

[13:25] Kime Babenco: Some people say , as well philosophers I think, or scientists, that human population on this planet should stop get get more numerous...

[13:26] Qwark Allen: the ruler have respect for human life, their subjects have respect for human life, and vice versa

[13:26] herman Bergson: Keep in mind that there are counter movements...like Occupy movemnt....

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): What does quantitative easing mean in this context?

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): printing money?

[13:27] herman Bergson: I don't know Debbie....

[13:27] herman Bergson: And this planet, Kime, can support more people than there live now...

[13:27] Qwark Allen: that reminded me, about charities movements! its just another way to laundry money for the big bankers

[13:27] Kime Babenco: Don't believe in humans going to Mars... lol

[13:27] Kime Babenco: as an extend of earth

[13:27] herman Bergson: No...MArs is not an option...

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh i think it is

[13:28] herman Bergson: You do Gemma?

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): The planet will survive - the people wont,

[13:28] Qwark Allen: we need a far more advanced technology to go there, then the one we have now

[13:28] Qwark Allen: will be long time till that happens

[13:28] Kime Babenco: Maybe in a 1000 years , or maybe ..... never

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): as for living on mars - what a poor substitute for earth.

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they are investigating ways to launch to mars from another planet

[13:28] herman Bergson: indeed Qwark....

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we will see

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well maybe WE wont see but someone will

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:29] Qwark Allen: more easy will be going to live in the moon

[13:29] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:29] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:29] herman Bergson: But what is more important at the moment is that the free market...or say, money, corrupts moral values...

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): who would have imagined going to the moon in 1920

[13:29] Kime Babenco: But we are not talking about Mars, It's here on this planet now

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): So the human epidemic will infest and kill other planets? The superior aliens will zap us first!

[13:29] herman Bergson: Jules Verne gemma

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): llol

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i mean non sci fi people

[13:30] Qwark Allen: eheheh maybe what you don`t know, is that they are there already

[13:30] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:30] Qwark Allen: and in the moon also ^^

[13:30] Kime Babenco: I mean some reasonable humans

[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and people thought Da Vinci was nuts

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): anyway the occupy movement needs to admit they need cohesion and a leader group to do anything

[13:31] herman Bergson: One way to approach problems is to refer to the future and what it will bring...

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....

[13:31] herman Bergson: the opposition to the absolute belief in the free market is still scattered....

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they need to lobby

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman, we all need to work on the problem of inhumane outcomes. For example, don't buy the expensive ticket from ryan air next time. It starts with individual behaviour

[13:32] herman Bergson: But I am not talking about this issue because I am so enlightened..:-)

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): at this point all air travel is horrible

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....and my behavior is an example of this ongoing process I think

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): herding like cattle

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes Herman. You're one of the good guys ;)

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes ㋡

[13:33] Kime Babenco: We can solve problems like finding a Higgs part... costs billions of billions of money... But we can not guartee a safe life to everyone... And we will never be able to... ... But more than we attempt...

[13:34] Kime Babenco: I know if you help certain countries, they buy weapons with the money...

[13:34] herman Bergson: Well... I don't know...I just want to point at the fact that there are processis in society, politics and science which oppose the free market religion...

[13:34] herman Bergson: That seems the case indeed Kime :-)

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): Kime, the people who make and sell the arms are the perpetrators.

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): They then lend the money to poor (african) governments to buy guns

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): usually with diplomatic approval

[13:36] herman Bergson: And here the main issue is making profit....

[13:36] Kime Babenco: Yes, , they only want money... they sell arms like a bread... and don't care if you eat it yourself of feed the porks with it...

[13:36] Qwark Allen: http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2006/01jan/moon.html

[13:36] Qwark Allen: for your apreciation about the moon

[13:36] herman Bergson: Hello Amadeus :-)

[13:36] Multiphilosophy: Heya Amadeus

[13:36] Amadeus Semper (amadeussemper): Hello Herman :)

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): amadeus

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor) YAY CONGRATUATIONS!

[13:36] Qwark Allen: was trying to find a article i read about the moon , made by a NASA scientist

[13:36] Amadeus Semper (amadeussemper): Hi Multi :-)

[13:37] Amadeus Semper (amadeussemper): Hello Debbie, hello folks

[13:37] herman Bergson: NExt time I'll give you more examples how the market invades our moral values....

[13:37] herman Bergson: this was just a small example

[13:37] herman Bergson: But to mention some others....

[13:37] herman Bergson: IN certain schools kids are paid to read books...

[13:37] Kime Babenco: Yes... Herman... shopping addicts exists

[13:38] herman Bergson: because reading books is educational....

[13:38] herman Bergson: but the kids get paid to stimulate them....

[13:38] herman Bergson: thus reading books tend to become a paid job, in state of reading because it is a pleasure as such

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): Weird

[13:38] Kime Babenco: OK

[13:39] herman Bergson: Burce Springsteen asks US$95 for his live concerts....as entrance fee...

[13:39] Kime Babenco: You must be kiding

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): OH THAT IS CHEAP

[13:39] herman Bergson: He does this (which costs him money) because he wants everybody to have a chance to attend...

[13:39] Kime Babenco: 95 US $ ?

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): concerts are sometimes 125-200

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): depending on who is the artist

[13:40] Kime Babenco: For entrance to everyone... ok

[13:40] herman Bergson: I still think it is alot of money, but some other artist asked US$450 for the best places...(forgot the name)

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): me too

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is true

[13:41] herman Bergson: The reason is that the concerts have also a social value....a feast between artist and public...

[13:41] herman Bergson: but what happpens...

[13:41] Kime Babenco: Madonna asked in Rio and Sao Paulo 600 R$ for nice place

[13:42] herman Bergson: people who aren't interested in this social value at all buy those tickets and sell them on th eblack market for twice as much or more

[13:42] Kime Babenco: is about 250 US$

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh lol

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): big football games resold for maybe 1000 or more

[13:42] herman Bergson: Same thing happens with the free theater performances in Central PArk....

[13:42] Kime Babenco: Depeche Mode cancelled all trips in Brasil

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): In south africa - there are often forged tickets sold outside.

[13:43] Kime Babenco: In 2010

[13:43] Kime Babenco: I won a trip to a show of them

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:44] herman Bergson: so...what I mean to say is that what initially was dominated by non commercial values like joy, social bonding etc. are taken over by the market , money and making profits

[13:44] herman Bergson: Like in near future you can buy friendship.....

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: no nice development for sure

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): The moral erosion of the free market at work.

[13:45] Kime Babenco: How matter how you turn it... everything is commercial...

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....and you'll hear more about this from me in next lectures...

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: everyone just want your money and not you, yourself have no value today just your wallet

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: thats sad

[13:45] Kime Babenco: Maybe not in the older countries like USSR or while we had a Military Regimn

[13:45] herman Bergson: And that is a sad observation Kime....

[13:46] Kime Babenco: It's a sad observation , but I guess not far from truth

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): We see the problem clearly, but there is no solution apparent.

[13:47] herman Bergson: We'll see Kime...we'll see....maybe we'll conclude at the end that with money you can not buy everything

[13:47] herman Bergson: and that there are values in live which are more valuable than what money can buy

[13:47] Kime Babenco: OK... see you Herman

[13:47] herman Bergson: Smiles

[13:47] herman Bergson: ok KIme :-)

[13:47] Kime Babenco: Be sure ;-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: Maybe I succeed in making my point....

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): perhaps

[13:48] herman Bergson: You can not buy hope ^_^

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:48] Kime Babenco: Lol

[13:48] herman Bergson: You've got it or not :-))

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: and u cant buy friends cause then they are no friends, just after your money

[13:49] Kime Babenco: Whithout i hope is really sad

[13:49] Kime Babenco: So let's avoid that

[13:49] herman Bergson: I will Kime...

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Money can't buy a return of the missing fish in the ocean

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Money can't buy clean air

[13:49] herman Bergson: so thank you all for your participation and I hope to see you all again next Tuesday ^_^

[13:50] Qwark Allen: or a clean of the oceans from the radioactivity released by fukushima

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thank you Herman - thought provoking as usual

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:50] Multiphilosophy: If you impose taxes on air and sea polluting factories or give them a rebate on tax for cleanliness, I guess money can buy that in a sense.

[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): we don't want to go

[13:50] herman Bergson: laughs...

[13:50] herman Bergson: you don't need to Debbie ^_^

[13:51] herman Bergson: It only allows me to go, if I like to ^_^

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): goody.

-

417: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism: Libertarianism

In 2009, Paul Ryan, running mate of Mitt Romney, said "What's unique about what's happening today in government, in the world, in America, is that it's as if we're living in an Ayn Rand novel right now.

I think Ayn Rand did the best job of anybody to build a moral case of capitalism, and that morality of capitalism is under assault." 

So let's investigate whether this assault on the morality of  capitalism is justified.

The richest 1% of Americans  possesses over a third of the country's wealth, more than the combined wealth of the bottom 90% of American families. The top 10% of American households are taking 42% of all income and hold 71% of all wealth.

Economic inequality is steeper in the United States than in other democracies. Some people think that such inequality is unjust and favor taxing the rich to help the poor. 

Others disagree. They say there is nothing unfair about economic inequality, provided it arises without force or fraud to the choices people make in a market economy.

The toughest defenders of the later point of view are the Libertarians, like Paul Ryan. You find these ideas among conservative Republicans, members of the Tea-Party movement. Even in the Netherlands we seem to have a libertarian party.

Libertarians reason that taxing the rich to help the poor violates a fundamental right. Taking money from the rich is coercive. It violates their liberty to do with their money whatever they please. 

Our liberty is based on what Robert Nozick (1938 - 2002) claims: "individuals have rights which may not be violated by other individuals" in his book : "Anarchy, State, and Utopia" (1974)

According to him, we have natural rights, especially our liberty and self-ownership (we own ourselves). This leads to his idea that we must see humans as ends in themselves and redistribution of goods is only justified on condition of consent.

This means that everything can be regulated by the free market. If this leads to winners and losers, there is nothing wrong with economic inequality as such. 

You can conclude nothing about the justice or injustice of this situation. What matter is  how the distribution came about.

All kinds of government rules and regulations to redistribute wealth, enforce health care, provide for social security for the poor and unemployed, are one by one serious infringements of the individual's right to liberty.

This is, because all is financed by imposing taxes, which even can be regarded as theft. 

Check this: 

There is the natural right of self-ownership. If I own myself, I own my labour. If I own my labour I must be entitled to the fruits of my labour. 

If someone else was entitled to the fruits of my labour, he would own my labour, so in fact own me. This is almost close to slavery.

If the state takes a part of my money, the fruit of my labour, it in fact takes my labour, which means that e.g. for 30% I am forced to work for the state, which is an infringement of my liberty.

We could object….hold on….you are a democratic citizen and thus subjected to laws which passed by majority vote.

The Libertarian reply would be: But what becomes of my individual rights?

May the majority deprive me of the freedom of speech and religion, as it deprives me of part of my income by taxation, claiming that as a democratic citizen I already have given my consent to whatever it decides by majority?

Does this argument hold? Are we indeed morally free in our self-ownership? Let me give you two examples.

Example one: Kidney donation is meant to save lives. You can donate one to your child because you can live with one. 

But if you OWN your body, these considerations do not matter. You are free to do with your property, i.e. kidney, as you please.

Suppose some art dealer offers you US$20.000 for a kidney. He makes coffee table ornaments of human kidneys. What prohibits you to take the money? Who cares about one kidney less?

Or suppose in a poor Indian village a father wants money for sending his son to college, so he'll have a better future. He sells a kidney to a rich American for transplantation.

Two years later he needs again money, now for sending his second son to college. He owns his body in absolute liberty and there is again a rich buyer for his second kidney…….

The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman

[13:24] herman Bergson: You may think it over...of course...

[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): thank you

[13:24] Multiphilosophy: *nods*

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hmm interesting issues for sure

[13:24] herman Bergson: Well let me reveal my main point.....

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): but first, who says that capitalism has a morality?

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): it seems amoral

[13:25] herman Bergson: the examples at the end of the lecture show us that the situation of self -ownership is not so simple in an ethical sense as some would let you believe

[13:25] Umae Ying: Do you expect free police and fire services? What if there was an attack by a foreign nation… free protection? Do you want to pay your own way on the services you receive?

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: i say we need to share and not take all for ourself, to care for others too¨

[13:26] herman Bergson: Ok...hold on....two matter here...

[13:26] herman Bergson: one..capitalism is amoral....

[13:26] Umae Ying: what if you could not pay the police yourself

[13:26] herman Bergson: Let's focus on that first...

[13:27] herman Bergson: there does not exist something like capitalism on the one hand and human beings at the other hand....

[13:27] herman Bergson: capitalism is the result of interacting individuals....

[13:27] herman Bergson: the ethics of capitalism is in the actions of the agents

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): pure capitalism is just a transfer of funds for good or services

[13:28] herman Bergson: It is often said that economy is amoral....

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): there's no judgement about those goods or services

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): peaches, kidneys,

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): etc

[13:28] herman Bergson: that sounds easy Velvet....but it already implies a value judgement....

[13:29] herman Bergson: You say GOOD services....

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): ahhh yes

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): okay

[13:29] herman Bergson: WHo decides what is good...where are the standards etc.

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): the purchaser, I suppose

[13:29] herman Bergson: that is an ethical question

[13:29] Umae Ying: Marketing and advertising take advantage of knowledge about how to influence people... is that fair that the rich can access that… education in the art of manipulation is not equal…for all

[13:29] Multiphilosophy: I think I agree with the professor. Capitalism does not necessarily carry morality. It's a creation. I think we should question the morality of those who put the system in place.

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham) nods at multi

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): yeo

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): yes

[13:30] herman Bergson: You have ann important point there Umae.....

[13:30] Umae Ying: propaganda

[13:30] herman Bergson: and yes Multi...you are right...

[13:30] herman Bergson: To get back to Umae....

[13:31] herman Bergson: Libertarians value liberty highly.....

[13:31] herman Bergson: but in what sense can we speak of liberty indeed in our world of commercials and advertizements...

[13:31] Umae Ying: superpacks

[13:31] herman Bergson: or...

[13:31] herman Bergson: Maybe someone knows the book of John Grisham..."The Brethern"

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): oh please no grisham.

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): smiles

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): sorry

[13:32] herman Bergson: Part of the plot is that the head of the CIA "makes" the president by manipulation of all kinds of communication channels

[13:33] herman Bergson: Who has the money becomes president is th emessage

[13:33] Umae Ying whispers: FOX news

[13:33] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:33] herman Bergson: Even I know where FOX stands for :-))

[13:33] herman Bergson: You don't like Grisham Velvet? :-)

[13:34] Umae Ying: murdock

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): no :)

[13:34] Umae Ying: beck

[13:34] herman Bergson: Tell me after class why if you have a moment ^_^

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): smiles. okay

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think who has money is a large part of becoming the US president

[13:35] herman Bergson: Economics seems to be amoral....

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): sad but true

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: basically corruption

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): exactly. we as people decide morality

[13:35] herman Bergson: when you look at news from the stock exchange you only see screens...all is run by computer programs

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): but money just goes where it goes.

[13:35] herman Bergson: as if it is pure mathematics and science

[13:36] herman Bergson: which of course isn't true at all

[13:36] herman Bergson: economics WAS a part of psychology...

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes the computers do all by themselves without intervention and make the economy spin out of control

[13:36] Umae Ying: insider trading... in washington also

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: giving even more money to the ones already have by automatics i guess

[13:36] Velvet (velvet.braham): no, the federal reserve has a lot of power

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: and draining the poor

[13:36] herman Bergson: No bejiita...it is the people at the keyboards that makes things rock :-))

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham) nods

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: it is the middle class that has to pay everything Bejiita

[13:37] Umae Ying: in london they phoned or e-mailed each other to "fix" a number for a little while

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): the rapidly shrinking middle class.

[13:37] herman Bergson: the Libor-interest....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: yes but don't they just program it and then let it just run cause the computers are making 10000 s or more transactions per second

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): Umae, what number fixed?

[13:38] herman Bergson: yes that was manipulated to make quick profits....

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: no human can follow that

[13:38] Umae Ying: it was in the trading...

[13:38] Umae Ying: i want to run this deal through...can you change the rate for a min while i run it through

[13:38] herman Bergson: But what nobody is talking about......

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): ahhhh I see

[13:39] herman Bergson: when you make a profit...

[13:39] herman Bergson: some one else makes a loss!

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: true

[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): so?

[13:39] herman Bergson: and the person who takes the loss as a result of manipulated figures is ripped off...

[13:40] herman Bergson: so the people who do that are real thieves...nothing less

[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): ah, excuse me. manipulating figures is unethical.

[13:40] Umae Ying: it is common

[13:40] herman Bergson: Don't you think so, Velvet?

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: bankers who sell us investments induce the loss of middle class people

[13:40] Multiphilosophy: Yet are the ones defending their rights to be free of taxation.

[13:40] herman Bergson: The fact that is is common practice doesn't justify a thing of course

[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think that profit/loss is amoral.

[13:41] Umae Ying: stacking the deck is not amoral

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think that manipulation is not moral.

[13:41] herman Bergson: I wouldn't agree Velvet....

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: or i don't know

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: tricky

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): no, I agree that stacking the deck is not fair

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: how it all works

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: but one thing for sure is as u said when someone win some other loose

[13:42] herman Bergson: If I have a product of which I KNOW that is is a bad product and yet I sell it to some one promissing him a good deal and profit

[13:42] herman Bergson: I am a thief

[13:42] herman Bergson: a fraud

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): unethical

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: yes

[13:42] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): but if you sell a good product and make a profit

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): all is well

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: there are too many such products on the market

[13:42] Umae Ying: not if you had your friends create a loophole for you in the laws

[13:42] Umae Ying: then it is legal

[13:42] Umae Ying: not nice...or moral..but legal

[13:42] herman Bergson: I take the profit and the buyer takes a big loss based on intentionally misleading information

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: we get a ton of commercials for them in the mail we go buy and then turn out to be just crap

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: and end up on the scrap heap

[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): If I buy crap I blame myself.

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes UMAE...There you hit the bull's eye of banking ethics at the moment...

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yhere attitude is...

[13:43] Umae Ying: that is the reason the big shots in wall street are not in jail

[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): I would say that some of them are in jail!

[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): not nearly enough

[13:44] Umae Ying: looopholes created by their friends that they helped to get elected

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): but some

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: i myself have concluded that to find the really good stuff i have to do hours of research on forums ect. before i can tell many things are really worth to buy

[13:44] herman Bergson: as long as there isn't a rule that forbids it, why should I stop selling this crab then?

[13:44] herman Bergson: I make a good profit with it....

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: i dont trust commercials except for some brands that I know make good quality

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): because if you do, your clients will not return.

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: like Samsung and Philips

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: they make good things I've never had problem with them

[13:44] herman Bergson: There are always new clients Velvet....

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): okay, good point.

[13:45] herman Bergson: if we have used up all 300 million americans we move to Europe...:-))

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute.

[13:45] Multiphilosophy waves at Amadeus.

[13:45] herman Bergson: Ok....back to the beginning....

[13:46] herman Bergson: a free market which is said ti be based on liberty and self-ownership

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Amadeus

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: hi Amadeus

[13:46] herman Bergson: I think, that at least we have an indication now that there are more values involved than only these two

[13:47] Umae Ying: what does ayn rand say?

[13:47] Umae Ying: does she include these others?

[13:47] herman Bergson: she would stick to the ideas of the Libertarians, Umae

[13:47] herman Bergson: No....

[13:48] herman Bergson: an idea of moral duty in a Kantian sense...

[13:48] Amadeus Semper (amadeussemper): Hi all

[13:48] herman Bergson: the possibility of the existence of altruism as a moral value...

[13:48] Amadeus Semper (amadeussemper) waves to Multi

[13:48] herman Bergson: all crap for her

[13:48] Velvet (velvet.braham): Rand would say that you can sell your kidney.

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes she would agree to that indeed Velvet...even when it is your second one...

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): your kidney, your choice

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): see? amoral. just a transfer of funds.

[13:50] herman Bergson: that brings us to suicide and assistance with suicide.

[13:50] herman Bergson: Well Velvet...

[13:50] Velvet (velvet.braham): holy cow, herman.

[13:50] Velvet (velvet.braham): that's a hot topic

[13:50] herman Bergson: in the 90s there was a prisoner who wanted to donate his second kidney to his daughter....

[13:50] herman Bergson: he went to court for that ....

[13:51] herman Bergson: His request was denied as unethical....

[13:51] herman Bergson: so

[13:51] herman Bergson: even when we think we own ourselves....

[13:51] herman Bergson: it seems that it is not the whole truth of life....

[13:51] herman Bergson: an other example....

[13:52] herman Bergson: has really happened....

[13:52] herman Bergson: 4 men in a boat....their ship had sunk....

[13:52] herman Bergson: ten days at sea...almost starving..

[13:53] herman Bergson: one member of the group..orphan, young, sick because of drinking seawater...

[13:53] herman Bergson: they took a vote....

[13:53] herman Bergson: one refused to vote but eventually one killed the sick boy....

[13:54] herman Bergson: and the three survived 4 days on the blood and flesh of the boy when they eventually were saved...

[13:54] herman Bergson: was this murder?

[13:54] herman Bergson: or was this from a utilitarian point of view...the greatest happiness for the greatest number...

[13:54] herman Bergson: so taking the life of the boy was morally justified?

[13:55] herman Bergson: Well..think about that....

[13:55] Velvet (velvet.braham): gosh, who can judge the actions of people in such circumstances?

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: I cant

[13:55] herman Bergson: the men were taken to court and convicted

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[13:55] Multiphilosophy: It sounds gray, neither good or bad, they flipped a coin and their decision was to take this action.

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: very interesting!!! it stimulates my thoughts! ty class!!!!!!! and TY herman!! i look forward to the new philosyear!

[13:56] herman Bergson: ok Bergie.....

[13:56] herman Bergson: You say grey Multi.....

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: its a such hard question

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: see you thursday :-)

[13:56] herman Bergson: but did the others have the right to take a life?

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: killing the boy was murder but if they haven't all would have died

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye

[13:57] Multiphilosophy: Likewise, should they all have died of hunger instead?

[13:57] Velvet (velvet.braham): we decide to take lives all the time

[13:57] Multiphilosophy: Hence the decision of flipping a coin.

[13:57] herman Bergson: Oh my..I see people are breaking down ^_^

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: i hav to go too, good night everybody

[13:57] Multiphilosophy: Good night Lizzy

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: night Lizzy

[13:57] herman Bergson: Is it morally justified to flip a coin on a human life?

[13:57] Velvet (velvet.braham): sure it is

[13:57] herman Bergson: Well Lizzy...till next time

[13:58] Multiphilosophy: It depends.

[13:58] Multiphilosophy: It is wrong to flip the coin about life and death if death can be avoided.

[13:58] Multiphilosophy: It is different if death is a result on both sides of the coin.

[13:58] herman Bergson: then you cheat :-))

[13:58] Velvet (velvet.braham): that too

[13:58] Velvet (velvet.braham): :)

[13:58] Umae Ying: is it certain death or just inconvenience

[13:59] Velvet (velvet.braham): see, that's unknown at the time of the flip

[13:59] Velvet (velvet.braham): otherwise there would be no need for a flip

[13:59] herman Bergson: Well..I guess I gave you enough to think about.....

[13:59] Umae Ying: maybe they should all stick together...

[13:59] Umae Ying: help each other

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: hehe indeed

[14:00] herman Bergson: our main theme is still to show that the free market has entered areas of live where it doesn't belong for moral reasons

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: ok tome to head on

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: this was some really interesting stuff

[14:00] Multiphilosophy: It was too late to help each other, they would have died of hunger. But what they could have done was prepare better for the journey... but it was too late for that.

[14:00] herman Bergson: SO...thank you all for your participation again ...

[14:00] Velvet (velvet.braham): herman, you know I'm still going to argue with you that the market has no morality

[14:00] Umae Ying: hmmmm

[14:01] Multiphilosophy: Thank you for the class. I had ideas about freedom similar to this class, but you made these ideas even more clear. *nods*

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: cu ㋡

[14:01] herman Bergson: Ok...Velvet...just go on attending the lectures...

[14:01] Velvet (velvet.braham): lol

[14:01] herman Bergson: you'll get lots of opportunities then ^_^

[14:01] Velvet (velvet.braham): thank you Herman

[14:01] herman Bergson: class dismissed ^_^

[14:01] herman Bergson: And now...what is wrong with Grisham, Velvet? :-))

[14:01] Velvet (velvet.braham): oh my

[14:02] Velvet (velvet.braham): I'm chatty today I guess

[14:02] herman Bergson: I am just curious