447: The Art Not to be an Egoist 12

Probably the most important difference between man and ape  is easy to identify: it is the ability of humans to establish norms. 

Apes only make the difference accepted and not-accepted. They obviously do not make the distinction between acceptable and non-acceptable. 

In short, they do not translate their judgment into a  standard, a custom or rule. As far as we know, apes do not derive abstract rules of behavior from their actual behavior.

The ability to universal norms, rules and maxims is an impressive human achievement. We are able to reason from the singular to the universal, the generalization.

But where does that come from? If our feelings, our social intuition guides our actions, why would we then need a reasonable general maxim? 

Why imprinted evolution in our minds the ability to formulate abstract norms and abstract value and judge ourselves and others by them? In other words: how in an empire of Willing came Ought into the world?

Where does the Ought come from. Regarding to this question it seems that biologists, psychologists and philosophers are pretty much in agreement.

To be able to play the social chess we play we need the ability to put ourselves in the place of the other. What would the other expect me to do? 

Because of this ability it could have helped our ancestors to develop the simple rule: What you don't want to happen to you, don't make it happen to your neighbor either.

From the ability of compassion and the basic sense of unfairness developed a first an unspoken and later verbalized rule.

When you analyze the protection against unfair treatment,  you run into feelings like decency, shame and taboo. Feelings which are absolutely necessary in a society to function.

So we could say that our morality developed from our social intuition and later our evolving brain translated this into rules, norms and standards of behavior? Is it really that simple?

At least one question has to answered yet: When we all use the same social intuition, then how can it be that people often act so differently individually? Why don't we all have the same moral reflexes?

When you look  at a cultural level you run into the same question. When all people have the same basic feeling of unfairness like the Capuzine monkeys seem to have too, why then are in some cultures women oppressed for centuries?

And where was the intuitive sense of decency and shame in the guards of concentration camps or for instance a prison in Iraq?

Brain damage of the prefrontal lobe leads to immoral and uncontrolled behavior, like we have seen with the famous Phineas Gage from 1848.

But it would be a bridge too far to claim that al our common immoral behavior like cheating, lying, speeding and so on, it the result of brain damage.

Our complex social life is only possible because we have moral standards. But at the same time there is a constant battle going on between our prehistoric social intuition and our ratio, as guardian of norms and standards.

When you and your group are hiding for a bunch of murdering soldiers and a baby starts crying so loud, that it will  reveal your hiding place….would you choke the baby? The death of one in exchange for the life of 15 others?

When you think about an answer you might conclude that our intuition or feeling isn't worse than our reason, where social intuition says "NO",while reason may say "YES". 

A second point is that our rational judgements are never void of feelings.

And the third point is, that what leads to the final decision, our social intuition or our ratio, is different in every individual person.

Morality is a social tool. It makes our complex way of social life possible. To grasp the whole picture we have to take our thoughts one step further.

Whether social intuition or rational deliberation is at the basis of our action, we will always be asked to JUSTIFY our action, give reasons.

This ability and need to justify our actions may be the essence of our morality. Our next point of interest and investigation.

This is the last lecture before the Holidays. The next lecture will be Tuesday January 8.. ^_^

The Discussion

[13:26] herman Bergson: Thank you all ^_^

[13:26] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: Nice Herman .)

[13:26] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): *nice and interesting* Herman

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:26] Jane Fossett: woo, thank you

[13:26] Qwark Allen: very nice

[13:26] Qwark Allen: still digesting it

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:27] herman Bergson: I agree it wasn't easy today....

[13:27] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): thank you, herman :)

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that baby question is not an old one it is renewed lately

[13:27] herman Bergson: But the main point you should keep in mind it the idea of justification....

[13:27] Rik (diedo.loopen): ty herman

[13:28] herman Bergson: It was originaly invented by Jonathan Greene....harvard prof..

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i was listening to a syrian child talk to an interviewer

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the other day

[13:29] herman Bergson: and it demonstrates clearly how we respond....intuitively or rationally

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Something you said near the end Herman reminds me that I previously had an opinion about the chimps in the video

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: a thing i came to think about what u said before

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is still going on

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That they were showing consideration for others in order to gain acceptance in their group

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: i read an article in the news about why hitler could make an whole army of murderers, it seems that they were not blindly following orders as they have thought

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: but actually was made to believe that the jews were like cockroaches and that it was right thing to make them suffer

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: a bit worrying

[13:30] herman Bergson: No Bejiita...and I'll come to that in next lectures....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: meaning that these terrible acts will always exist he ended the article with

[13:30] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): look at israel and gaza

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: however don't know about the expertise of the writer of the article

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but made me think a bit

[13:31] herman Bergson: Well bejiita..he has some point...

[13:31] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): it has been always a method of the ruling party to discriminate a minority by comparing them with animals, so it had been easier for their soldiers to attack and kill them

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: i really hope it isn't the case that u can just reprogram someone to hate

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:31] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): not only for the soldiers

[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Oceana...

[13:32] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): for the people also

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well Bejita... it did look a bit like they could programme people then

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: also why are all women without rights in saudi arabia

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: also terrible

[13:32] Rik (diedo.loopen): maybe there is a god

[13:32] herman Bergson: It is the We or They issue...

[13:32] herman Bergson: We'll discuss that here too

[13:32] Jane Fossett: yes

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:32] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:33] herman Bergson: But we need a New Year for that ^_^

[13:33] Rik (diedo.loopen): maybe it s not question yes or no

[13:33] Rik (diedo.loopen): yes right

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think the Us and Them issue could get a lot worse with increasing population

[13:33] Rik (diedo.loopen): we can consider it

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: indeed this is very tricky subject

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: makes the head spinning sometimes hehe

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: but very interesting stuff that make u really think

[13:33] Rik (diedo.loopen): and pray for our loves ones

[13:34] herman Bergson: Well Merlin...think of the present financial crisis.....

[13:34] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): it is a worldwide game about might

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes Herman?

[13:34] herman Bergson: the increasing gap between the rich and poor in this world....

[13:34] herman Bergson: Ready for an US or Them battle if this continues

[13:34] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): there is no real financial crisis, it is man made

[13:35] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): the financial leaders always win

[13:35] herman Bergson: Oh true Alegra...absolutely true...

[13:35] Rik (diedo.loopen): i think it always been this way about very rich and poor people

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well you could guess who would win such a battle

[13:35] herman Bergson: In fact there is no crisis at all...it is just the way it is...

[13:35] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): yes, there´s is no outside of the imperium as one of the recent philosopher put it, all the markets are so interlinked, that it will come to something like a big bubble to explode one day ...

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: the ones with the most money always seem to win

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: not fair

[13:36] herman Bergson: Look at history Merlin...lots of kings were decapitated

[13:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): look what they do withe the money to save a country ... they are saving banks

[13:36] Rik (diedo.loopen): than we need to define what a crisis is

[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very true

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:36] herman Bergson: exactly Rik..^_^

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): My thoughts were as Bejiita, but 'yeah' also to Hermans point

[13:36] herman Bergson: that is the whole point!

[13:36] Jane Fossett: There are many levels of social interaction, many circumstances where 'us' and 'them' change. I think the conflict between those group interactions likely fuels in part the change in ethical paradigms.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: feeding their own pockets instead of make the country work

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): right

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: those bankers

[13:37] Rik (diedo.loopen): i can imagine some relay have a crisis losing jobs and not able to take their family

[13:37] herman Bergson: oops ..that was a difficult one Jane...:-)

[13:37] Rik (diedo.loopen): really

[13:37] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:37] Rik (diedo.loopen): sorry for my english i tend to type to fast sometimes

[13:37] herman Bergson: could you rephrase it a bit?

[13:37] Jane Fossett: I'll rephrase one part of my statement

[13:37] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): if ordinary citizens has to "support" their banks and get no interests for not risky savings, then something is entirely wrong with the market... this system increases the decay of the middle class

[13:38] herman Bergson: Dont worry Rik..we all understand typonees here

[13:38] Jane Fossett: conflict drives culture

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: indeed the people give but give nothing back

[13:38] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): the middle class has to pay all at least

[13:38] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): and the gap will become bigger

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: same with insurance companies paying high fees and then they make up a reason to not give u anything when an accident or similar happens

[13:38] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): the middle class is fading away ...

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: u give but get nothing back

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Oceana...that is a problem...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats stealing i d say

[13:39] Jane Fossett: 'middle class' is ambiguous, its a group tag I think

[13:39] herman Bergson: The rise of culture and prosperity occurred when a middle class grew in a society..

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I agree.. it is a kind of no-mans land

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:40] herman Bergson: bridging the gap between poor and rich...

[13:40] Jane Fossett: we split people up into groups...

[13:40] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): as bourdieu put it, how can we survive with our cultural capital... if the matrix conditions are changing...

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The middle class is the only one who finds raising children expensive

[13:40] Rik (diedo.loopen): i like the text ........nothing new under the sun ,maybe we need to look at it from a different way

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes maybe

[13:41] herman Bergson: well...to get back to our point of focus....

[13:41] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): of course nothing new, in former times the kings now the bankers

[13:41] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: what we are studying here is the question after Human NAture...

[13:42] herman Bergson: So far we see a distinction between social intuition and rational judgement....

[13:42] herman Bergson: but the new issue now is....

[13:43] herman Bergson: that whether social intuition or rational deliberation guide our moral behavior...

[13:43] herman Bergson: we still have to JUSTIFY our actions.....

[13:43] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): only the conditions that lead to justification are very personally

[13:43] herman Bergson: That will be our concern for the new year...

[13:44] Jane Fossett: :-) and criteria for justification is another whole ball of wax.

[13:44] herman Bergson: That Alegra is the big question....

[13:44] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:44] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): is your question more related to the old kantian question, how should we act?

[13:44] herman Bergson: Indeed Jane!

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we always have the questions :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: But the demand of justification of moral behavior transcends social intuition or rational deliberation

[13:45] herman Bergson: at least at an individual level

[13:45] herman Bergson: The justification is some kind of public issue

[13:46] herman Bergson: Like you see today with all these greedy bankers....

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): isn't that why we have laws?

[13:46] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): hahaha yes

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: thats true

[13:46] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): I believe in certain moral standards to make life bearable for a great amount of people

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and a justice system?

[13:46] herman Bergson: Oh yes Oceana.....

[13:46] herman Bergson: that is what justification implies

[13:46] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): :)

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: i use to think, how can these bankers sleep well at night with no shame

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): to do it for a great amount of people who may not agree

[13:47] herman Bergson: For instance a Declaration of Human Rights

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): on ratio

[13:47] Jane Fossett: one issue is whether that 'demand' is internal or external... I think much cultural evolution is fueled by conflict and the need to change.

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I don't know that word 'ratio' in this sense

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): individually we may never agree on something

[13:47] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): perhaps they old the use strategies of ignoring the suffering and poverty of a lot of people...

[13:48] herman Bergson: You are pretty conflict loving Jane ^_^

[13:48] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): old=use

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so we create laws to cover that

[13:48] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): badly that law often is adapted to the wrong minority

[13:48] Jane Fossett: haha just practical

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....Law is almost transcendental in this respect

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:49] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): but, to what kind of group does this laws apply.... are they for everyone... or are there for the people who are ruling a country and can get away with murder

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lol

[13:49] Jane Fossett: grin

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): should be for everyone

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: but sometimes u wonder indeed

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): like the individual bankers who were in charge of the mess

[13:49] Qwark Allen: you should see what is happening in portugal then

[13:49] Jane Fossett: 'ethics' are in context to the group.

[13:49] herman Bergson: Indeed Oceana....we don't need to call names here

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Hmm there is news in Britain just now about that very thing... the murder of an Irishman

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and should be prosecuted

[13:50] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): look at regulation in copyright or somethings else .. ACTA

[13:50] Qwark Allen: all politicians at parlement have parlementary immunity

[13:50] Qwark Allen: its worst then in the time of monarchy there, when only the king has immunity

[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark…Berlusconi is running for is like a rabbit

[13:50] Qwark Allen: haahha

[13:51] Qwark Allen: he is italian

[13:51] Qwark Allen: its kind of the same

[13:51] herman Bergson: twisted as spagetti

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:51] Jane Fossett: In the US, a very large number of congressmen became millionaires after they were elected. I guess that was a reward for their 'ethics.'

[13:51] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:51] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: i dont get how that swine can continue, now Berlu is soon back on the throne again even he have done so many nasty thing

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: he should be in jail by long

[13:52] herman Bergson: Weird observation Jane...

[13:52] Jane Fossett: haha

[13:52] Qwark Allen: tortelini you ment :-)))

[13:52] herman Bergson: Does congress pay that well?

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hahahah

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nono

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:52] Jane Fossett: No sill :-)

[13:52] Jane Fossett: y

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they go speak

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: lol that ill start to cal him Berlusconi

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and get money

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: Tortelini

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lots !!!

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:52] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): well, the common trust into the political caste seems to fail - so to what authority can we put trust in

[13:52] Qwark Allen: heheheh bejita

[13:52] herman Bergson: Wow...gonna apply for that job too....

[13:53] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): lol herman

[13:53] herman Bergson: Just look at all those Lindens in the new year !!!

[13:53] Qwark Allen: you have to learn how to be a good corrupt then hermann

[13:53] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again...

[13:53] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:53] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:53] Jane Fossett: woo!

[13:53] Qwark Allen: thank you :-)))

[13:53] herman Bergson: This was the last lecture of 2012..

[13:53] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): thank you for a great class, herman :)

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): hahaha herman as new lobbyist for linden

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: but it is same with politicians here, even if they get fired even after being a very short while they still get millions in bonuses for years

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh no

[13:54] herman Bergson: in 2013 we may celebrate my 500th Lecture!!!!

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): wow

[13:54] Qwark Allen: ahha

[13:54] herman Bergson: so Qwark...

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): congrats

[13:54] Qwark Allen: we need to make a partyy that day

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you for all the wonderful lectures this year Herman!

[13:54] herman Bergson: Begin thinking about a big party...^_^

[13:54] Rik (diedo.loopen): ty herman

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): like graduation ?

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): party?! oh yes for sure

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): never happens

[13:54] Rik (diedo.loopen): gemma see u soon fishing

[13:55] herman Bergson: It was a great pleasure again...

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nice to see you

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in class

[13:55] Qwark Allen: was great lectures this year for sure

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: so its an endless misery spiral for these people

[13:55] herman Bergson: I thank you all and hope to see you in good health in January again

446: The Art Not to be an Egoist 11

The picture I am drawing of the nature of man and the origins of morality leads to the questing: who makes the decisions in moral matters? Our feeling or our reason.

In his "Treatise of Human Nature" (1739) the Scottish philosopher David Hume comes to two interesting observations.

The first one is that not reason or ratio controls man, but his feelings and emotions. The second is when feelings and emotions are the cause of our actions and not our rational deliberation, then there can be no free will.

Whatever I decide in a moral situation, I always am motivated by the strongest feeling of emotion. This is the winner and our reason is just the one who tells us afterwards, why we decided this or that.

Hume's message is clear: Our moral decisions are not the results of rational deliberation, but they are based on our intuition.

The idea that our morality is intuitive and thus largely beyond our reason, is currently more popular than it ever was.

For two hundred years these ideas enjoyed mostly a modest shadowy existence in philosophy. Today, however, it is as if it were the philosophical fashion of our time.

We'll not discuss the problem of the Free Will now, tho it has become a hot issue these days. For now we'll focus on the question whether our morality is based on and driven by intuition or reason.

You can observe this in daily life. Rational arguments are often qualified as cold. We must open up for feelings and emotions. Who doesn't know the painful effect of the reproach "Oh my, you are so rational".

When you wonder what to decide, your friend could say to you"When it feels good, then it is the right decision."  This even brought us the concept of Emotional Intelligence.

Many neuroscientists are trying to demonstrate on the computer screen, that Hume was absolutely right: The dark pulse of our feelings and emotions lights up first before the rational part of the brain lights up.

Jonathan Haidt (born 1963) is a professor at New York University Stern School of Business.His research focuses on the psychological bases of morality across different cultures and political ideologies.

According to his view, moral judgments are mostly the products of quick, intuitive evaluations of scenarios with certain content. 

Moral reasoning is usually a largely post hoc phenomenon. People are, as Haidt says, "intuitive lawyers" whose reasoning usually seeks to vindicate the person's own intuition rather than openly assess the case from an impartial point of view.

In a previous lecture I said that there seems to be a relation between how you see the nature of man and your political ideology.

Haidt reasons more or less also along those lines, it seems. He showed that we organize our moral values according to our ideology.

It is not so that our ideological beliefs are the source of our moral standards. Rational arguments for them, for what is right or wrong, valuable of worthless, fair or unfair, just come afterwards.

But how far does our intuition go?Did  Hume actually had it right, when he said that in moral actions always and only the strongest feeling is the decisive factor? 

And it is true that, as Haidt, many neuroscientists and some psychologists believe that the brain only works as an advertising department that justifies the decisions of feeling afterwards?

The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:19] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Hmm Interesting stuff tonight

[13:20] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:20] Debbie Dee (framdor): Interesting thanks Prof ;)

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: so basically what we think is right is just based on how we feel?

[13:20] herman Bergson: We're not done Debbie..still lots of questions to be answered ^_^

[13:20] herman Bergson: That Bejiita is the question....

[13:21] herman Bergson: The deeper arguments are related to evolutionary biology....

[13:21] herman Bergson: for instance...

[13:21] Chu Ann (hermine): mostly yes#cos ppl are not able to control their feelimgs

[13:21] Debbie Dee (framdor): so where does training come in? surely the commandments are taught, and reasonably observed?

[13:21] herman Bergson: take a response based on fear...

[13:21] Chu Ann (hermine): free will is really a myth for most people^^

[13:22] Chu Ann (hermine): it is very hard to be objective

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Chu....He already said so....

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: its a tricky subject

[13:22] herman Bergson: And training Debbie....yes...that is the next point to look into

[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I like to see the references to animals. I think such considerations can answer a lot

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: intuitive decisions go faster than rational decisions, i guess that was important for mankind to survive

[13:23] Chu Ann (hermine): yes training of your feelings

[13:23] Chu Ann (hermine): well, the control of these feelings

[13:23] Midi Aeon: Where do goals fit into the moral decision process?

[13:23] Kime Babenco: So our behaviour is more according to emotional impulses than logical thinking ?

[13:23] herman Bergson: Indeed Lizzy that is the most heard argument to explain the operating of the different parts of the brain

[13:23] Chu Ann (hermine): yes kime

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: basically only by control of our feelings we can get free will if i understand everything right

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Kime…that is the debate of today in philosophy

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That seems to make sense Bejii

[13:24] herman Bergson: Very clever Bejiita...

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): LIke budhism teaches?

[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think it gets a lot of training to get control over our feelings

[13:25] herman Bergson: Like Hume said....we can follow the emotion driven response and we can decide not to do so

[13:25] Chu Ann (hermine): true beertje not that easy^^^

[13:25] Chu Ann (hermine): and it is important to know yourself

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes..very true

[13:25] Chu Ann (hermine): how u act

[13:25] Chu Ann (hermine): and why

[13:25] herman Bergson: You can add to that the idea of an ethics of Virtue...

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ssems logical

[13:26] herman Bergson: Like Aristotle proposed....and which is part of christian philosophy

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am thinking also about near-reflex actions due to intense training

[13:26] herman Bergson: ok...

[13:27] herman Bergson: A lot of arguments that our morality is based on our intuition...

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): Merlins point is good... moral values are corrupted by training - look at a soldier

[13:27] herman Bergson: We have come to this point often here...

[13:28] Chu Ann (hermine): and?

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ty Deb, but good things too perhaps

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): perhaps ;)

[13:28] herman Bergson: Well that we THINK we are rational beings and in fact show that we arent...

[13:28] Chu Ann (hermine): i do not think that^^^

[13:29] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:29] herman Bergson: Good for you hemine :-)

[13:29] Chu Ann (hermine): mh dunno if this is good

[13:29] Chu Ann (hermine): that keeps u thinking too much

[13:29] herman Bergson: The training of the soldier is based on fear....and the will to survive

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well, we think a lot, even if we are irrational sometimes ;)

[13:30] Chu Ann (hermine): ^^

[13:30] Kime Babenco: It's maybe to the point, but the climate coneferences. Every politician knows what has to be done, but not one knows how to get re-elected after done that... Intuition ?

[13:30] herman Bergson: That is what Descartes said...

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman, to some extent. But what of special forces people? I've met a few killers in my time....

[13:30] herman Bergson: you can do what you want..but you cant escape tthinking ^_^

[13:31] Chu Ann (hermine): lol thats good herman

[13:31] Kime Babenco: Indeed

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: i already met people who obviously don't think ^-^

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: hehe ok

[13:31] Chu Ann (hermine): rofl lizzy me too

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: sometimes u wonder if people think indeed

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): define "rational being" in this context - is it enough to think?

[13:32] herman Bergson: lol

[13:32] herman Bergson: hold on ..this isnt' philosophy

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): Language?

[13:32] herman Bergson: unfortunately all people think..also the stupid ones ^_^

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: but our thoughts are also influenced by intuition

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): so if they are stupid - and think - are they irrational?

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes LIzzy.....

[13:33] Chu Ann (hermine): but they think different things

[13:33] herman Bergson: In moral issues the question is...

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the diffinition of intuition?

[13:33] Chu Ann (hermine): and no one is stupid

[13:33] herman Bergson: is the ratio fighting with feeling or is feeling fighting with ratio :-)

[13:34] Chu Ann (hermine): everyone knows something in the world

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): I feel the answer to that Beertje...

[13:34] Chu Ann (hermine): we r all one

[13:34] herman Bergson: The definition of intuition....

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think we all feel, think and try to do the best we can

[13:34] herman Bergson: I would say....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: one scary example i read before about the nazis what that they didnt do all that killing cause of blindly following orders, Hitler had brainwashed then so they actually thought it was right to kill and cause suffering

[13:35] herman Bergson: an unreasoned primary response to a situation based on primary emotional reflexes…

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: they bellieved it was actually the right to do

[13:35] Chu Ann (hermine): yes as the americans with the indians^^

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you ㋡

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): I saw that in South AFrica before 1994. Inhuman actions, carried out with vigor.

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: that doesn't excuse it Bejiita

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sorry Herman but I am uneasy with that definitiion

[13:36] Midi Aeon: I think that your goals determine if feelings and rationality fight or reinforce each other.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: i mean how can u think that is ever right to kill someone

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: we are all the same

[13:36] herman Bergson: One moment...

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: however some people seem to have lost their minds for sure

[13:36] herman Bergson: Merlin....you have the floor

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes bejita!!!

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): omg....

[13:37] Chu Ann (hermine): go merlin go^^

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:37] herman Bergson: I don't want to have you feeling uneasy with a definition Merlin ^_^

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am not sure now, but it was the word 'Response' that bothered me. Perhaps I was thinking you meant action

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): and the class lapsed into silence... you could hear a pin drop...

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:38] Chu Ann (hermine): ^

[13:38] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:39] herman Bergson: I have given a series of lectures on basic emotions....like fear and love and anxiety etc...

[13:39] herman Bergson: which reside in a part of the brain that is evolutionary prior to the prefrontal lobe....The extra we have over the chimps for instance.

[13:39] herman Bergson: and where our ratio resides

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well yeah, animals act on instinct much more than reason

[13:40] herman Bergson: So what we cll intuition refers to that part of the brain...

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:41] herman Bergson: Exactly Merlin .animals not even take the trouble to reason :-)

[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale) nods

[13:41] Chu Ann (hermine): but it is the feeling that comes without too much thinking about it

[13:41] herman Bergson: That is typically human....

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): So Intuition is unreasoned, but can be trained, by experience?

[13:41] Chu Ann (hermine): and too much thinking is sometimes - or often - not the best to do

[13:41] herman Bergson: and here I'll already give you one thing to think about fo Thursday....

[13:42] Chu Ann (hermine): ok

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): yay

[13:42] herman Bergson: On the one hand we seem to say that morality is intuitive....

[13:42] herman Bergson: But there is more...

[13:43] herman Bergson: whether we feel good about something or not....there also is the need to justify our actions.

[13:43] herman Bergson: What does justification mean and imply....

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh what a juicy subject....

[13:43] herman Bergson: Maybe we'll find our next Thursday ^_^

[13:44] Chu Ann (hermine): i hope to have time to come on thursday

[13:44] Kime Babenco: OK, maybe till then

[13:44] herman Bergson: Oh that reminds me....Debbie...

[13:44] Kime Babenco: Thanks and bye for now....

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes?

[13:44] herman Bergson: You are not from Brazil but South Africa...sorry ^_^

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): np herman ;)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again...

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

[13:44] Kime Babenco: I am from Brasil

[13:44] herman Bergson: Kime is from Brasil :-)

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): ty for another intereting sl evening

[13:45] Kime Babenco: ;-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hehe this was great for sure

[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you all...

[13:45] Kime Babenco: BYe everyone

[13:45] Bejiita Imako:  \o/

[13:45] Bejiita Imako:    ||   Hoooo!

[13:45] Bejiita Imako:   / \

[13:45] Chu Ann (hermine): thank u herman

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✫¸¸.·✿.¸★♥♡ღ❦º° էհɑղҟ վօմ :) °º❦ღ♡♥★¸.✿·.¸¸✫

[13:45] Chu Ann (hermine): hope to see u all on thursday

[13:45] herman Bergson: You are always welcome Hermine

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): bye friends xxx

445: The Art Not to be an Egoist 10

The picture I am drawing of the nature of man and the origins of morality leads to the questing: who makes the decisions in moral matters? Our feeling or our reason.

In his "Treatise of Human Nature" (1739) the Scottish philosopher David Hume comes to two interesting observations.

The first one is that not reason or ratio controls man, but his feelings and emotions. The second is when feelings and emotions are the cause of our actions and not our rational deliberation, then there can be no free will.

Whatever I decide in a moral situation, I always am motivated by the strongest feeling of emotion. This is the winner and our reason is just the one who tells us afterwards, why we decided this or that.

Hume's message is clear: Our moral decisions are not the results of rational deliberation, but they are based on our intuition.

The idea that our morality is intuitive and thus largely beyond our reason, is currently more popular than it ever was.

For two hundred years these ideas enjoyed mostly a modest shadowy existence in philosophy. Today, however, it is as if it were the philosophical fashion of our time.

We'll not discuss the problem of the Free Will now, tho it has become a hot issue these days. For now we'll focus on the question whether our morality is based on and driven by intuition or reason.

You can observe this in daily life. Rational arguments are often qualified as cold. We must open up for feelings and emotions. Who doesn't know the painful effect of the reproach "Oh my, you are so rational".

When you wonder what to decide, your friend could say to you"When it feels good, then it is the right decision."  This even brought us the concept of Emotional Intelligence.

Many neuroscientists are trying to demonstrate on the computer screen, that Hume was absolutely right: The dark pulse of our feelings and emotions lights up first before the rational part of the brain lights up.

Jonathan Haidt (born 1963) is a professor at New York University Stern School of Business.His research focuses on the psychological bases of morality across different cultures and political ideologies.

According to his view, moral judgments are mostly the products of quick, intuitive evaluations of scenarios with certain content. 

Moral reasoning is usually a largely post hoc phenomenon. People are, as Haidt says, "intuitive lawyers" whose reasoning usually seeks to vindicate the person's own intuition rather than openly assess the case from an impartial point of view.

In a previous lecture I said that there seems to be a relation between how you see the nature of man and your political ideology.

Haidt reasons more or less also along those lines, it seems. He showed that we organize our moral values according to our ideology.

It is not so that our ideological beliefs are the source of our moral standards. Rational arguments for them, for what is right or wrong, valuable of worthless, fair or unfair, just come afterwards.

But how far does our intuition go?Did  Hume actually had it right, when he said that in moral actions always and only the strongest feeling is the decisive factor? 

And it is true that, as Haidt, many neuroscientists and some psychologists believe that the brain only works as an advertising department that justifies the decisions of feeling afterwards?

444: The Art Not to be an Egoist 9

I hope you have all watched the TED lecture of Frans de Waal. If not I'll give you the URL at the end of the lecture again.

Capuchin monkeys are not our closest relatives. Nevertheless, they can give us some insights. Even monkeys, it seems, cherish certain social expectations. 

And they have a sense of how others should treat them. Learning of capuchins means to see, that the creatures that have a rough idea of a Self, have expectations and demands about how they ought be treated.

And it means to see how the highly developed sense of justice of the human being might have taken its start somewhere there and that the Self is the logical place where you should look for its origin. 

If  the self-centered form is just there, then it is possible that it can be expanded so that it includes other individuals.

The ability to be fair, and that is the point here, is not a product of culture or an exclusively human consensus. It is deeply rooted into the animal kingdom. 

But is the sense of unfairness that overcame the unfairly treaded Capuchin monkey, already the same as a sense of fairness?

You can doubt that. When the other Capuchin monkey had been really "fair' he might have had the option to share his grape with his so unfairly treated colleague.

From this point of view it would not be proper to speak of a sense of justice in Capuchin monkey, but at least of an elementary sense of unfairness.

De Waal's theory of morality has a friendly face: The germ of the Good in man is an old story from the animal kingdom, which emerged from social behavior. 

Conflict resolution was the beginning, compassion and fairness were added later. From social to moral animal  it is just a small step, or rather a series of small steps.

To understand the baboons or even more the great apes means to discover the roots of our morality: in cooperation and comforting, gratitude and a sense of community.

De Waals model of morality is a kind of layered one:  Hidden in the heart is the emotional reflex, triggered by the behavior of others.

You find this just about anywhere in the higher animals. In the middle is the empathy, the ability to assess the emotions of another, including their reasons. Great apes appear to be capable of doing so like humans.

The outermost layer is the art of taking full account of the perspective of another. Only this is exclusively human. 

This is according to de Waal the evolutionary history of our morality, as revealed in the behavior of our closest relatives in the animal kingdom.

So morality has an origin in emotional responses and is not primarily under control of our rationality. That came only later, where moral intuitions went over into moral rules.

So we may conclude, that there is evidence, that our morality is not just a layer of thin veneer on a bestial and uncontrolled human nature.

John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873) recognized this basic intuition and called it our sense of justice. And its flip side is the need to punish those who violate this feeling.

Our brain even  activates our reward center in the mesolimbic system, when we see how other people are punished for their unfairness, regardless it was unfairness towards us or to some other person.

Our ability to moral behavior, as we have seen, has deep and old roots. It is not a thin veneer created by culture. But how strong is our moral intuition?

In other words, what part does our Ratio play in all this?

The Discussion 

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:20] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:20] herman Bergson: for those who missed de Waal...

[13:20] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

[13:20] herman Bergson: The long version of de Waal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Lm49XVkGQ

[13:20] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): interesting Herman

[13:21] herman Bergson: if you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours :-))

[13:21] Jane Fossett: "Justice" and "Fairness" are very different concepts.

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i will watch the video later

[13:21] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): what is the difference between moral behavior and moral intuition?

[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes Jane....

[13:22] herman Bergson: Maybe that is the role of our Ratio...

[13:22] Qwark Allen: we are talking about animals in general? or just primates?

[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): By the way, for the record, that parable I mentioned last time is Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. Matthew 20:1-16.

[13:22] herman Bergson: Inndeed merlin...

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :)

[13:23] herman Bergson: Mainly we talk about the higher animals and esp. primates here Qwark....

[13:23] Qwark Allen: i agree, mamels in general

[13:23] herman Bergson: And moral intuition causes moral behavior...

[13:23] herman Bergson: or like the moneys showed....

[13:24] herman Bergson: they have an intuition of fairness which causes the way they behaved

[13:24] Qwark Allen: probably we``ll see it even more, in the aquatic ones

[13:24] Qwark Allen: like dolphins and whales

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: How would you define the word intuition Herman?

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I thought in the second video the co-operation of the chimps might be self-motivated in order to maintain social relationships.

[13:25] herman Bergson: intuition is for me a kind of how the brain is programmed to respond Lizzy

[13:25] Jane Fossett: And Moral intuition may well be ingrained, but not always for the good. There is likely an evolved sense of self protection and 'group identity' to the exclusion of others. The old testament is full of atrocities in the name of God. So is Revelation.

[13:25] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ok that is acceptable, because moral is also changing in societies

[13:25] Jane Fossett: My group is good so you must die.

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Jane....We and the others....

[13:26] herman Bergson: We'll discuss that issue in future lectures....

[13:26] herman Bergson: on the other hand....

[13:26] Jane Fossett: Chimps do that too.

[13:26] herman Bergson: the intuition I am talking about has developed far before the Old Testemental humans....

[13:27] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:27] Qwark Allen: testameqntal humans are related to what? 6 - 10000 years ago?

[13:27] Qwark Allen: ehhehe

[13:27] herman Bergson: One characteristic is the cooperative attitude in social beings....like Kropotkin showed

[13:27] Qwark Allen: i see your point hermann

[13:27] herman Bergson: harly Qwark,,,,

[13:28] Qwark Allen: like this kind of behavior is innate

[13:28] herman Bergson: 4500 years ago or less I would say..

[13:28] herman Bergson: Moses lived among the Egyptians

[13:28] Qwark Allen: probalby comes from millions years ago

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): are you going back to adam and eve?

[13:29] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): hehe

[13:29] Qwark Allen: much far back then those 2

[13:29] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:29] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:29] herman Bergson: Well look at the table at the wall to my left...

[13:29] Jane Fossett: (Kropotkin was a communist.... :-) )

[13:29] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:29] herman Bergson: Like I said in another lecture....

[13:30] herman Bergson: there seems to be a relation to the political view and the view on human nature Jane

[13:30] Jane Fossett: true.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Like Hobbes therefore could never be a communist :-))

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: do people from different cultures have different intuitions in certain respects?

[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): good question

[13:30] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): they have

[13:31] herman Bergson: Maybe not Lizzy....

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think so since it is based on different experiences

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in their lives

[13:31] herman Bergson: If you thing of mutual care, honesty, friendship, gratitude...feelings like that

[13:31] Qwark Allen: probably what is fair to a new guinea man, is not fair to me

[13:31] herman Bergson: They seem to have a universal character

[13:31] Qwark Allen: even both have fairness judgement

[13:32] Jane Fossett: but only in the 'group'

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh by the way. BBC Radio4 In Our Time today is about Russell.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Jane....

[13:32] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): and what is the group

[13:32] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): depends on interests

[13:32] herman Bergson: Teh group is the context Wittgenstein referred to...

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): And they even mention Wittgenstein briefly too

[13:33] herman Bergson: The truth of an emperical statement is not given as such...it is elated to a context....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Liek the example I gave...

[13:33] herman Bergson: A give B money....

[13:33] herman Bergson: tat seems to be the empirical fact

[13:33] herman Bergson: But what is the proposition to describe it...

[13:34] herman Bergson: A pays B

[13:34] herman Bergson: A loans money to B

[13:34] herman Bergson: A pays a debt to B

[13:34] herman Bergson: All seem to refer to the same empirical situation...

[13:34] herman Bergson: yet you need the context to establish the truth value of the statement

[13:35] herman Bergson: Is it isn a store, in a bar, in a bank...etc.

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: i am wondering what the difference between intuition and instinct is

[13:35] Catt (catt.gable): nods

[13:35] Jane Fossett: Logic defines 'truth' not context, correct?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Well...so far we dare say that there is a biological and evolutionary explanation of the origin of morality....

[13:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): but seems to be very basic only

[13:36] Qwark Allen: fair enough

[13:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): why morality is off in wars as an example?

[13:36] herman Bergson: intuition and instinct....

[13:37] herman Bergson: I would say that they are two words looking at the same ting from a different angle

[13:37] herman Bergson: intuition comes from psychology....instinct comes from biology

[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: ty for the definition Herman

[13:38] herman Bergson: I think our next chapter will be to investigate how our rationality handles the intuitions we just discussed....

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:38] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:39] herman Bergson: But that will be a subject for future lectures....

[13:39] Qwark Allen: will be interesting for sure

[13:39] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your interest and participation again....

[13:39] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:39] Qwark Allen: its not fair

[13:39] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:39] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): yes will be interesting

[13:39] Qwark Allen: class just ended

[13:39] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ty herman

[13:39] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:39] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:40] Jane Fossett: thank you!

[13:40] Vadaman: Thanks Herman.

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:40] Guestboook van tipjar stand: bergfrau Apfelbaum donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty, herman

[13:40] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:40] herman Bergson: My pleasure...

[13:40] Qwark Allen: :-)))

433: The Art Not to be an Egoist 8

I ended my previous lecture with saying:"At this point we could formulate the hypothesis that human nature is in essence characterized by the urge to cooperate, which implies the emergence of good and evil."

This sounds rather positive. It would be good, if we could find some more evidence for this observation. In that respect Darwin himself gave us a good hint.

"Anyone who understands the baboon, would contribute more to  metaphysics than John Locke." once the young Darwin predicted in his notebook of 1838.

Studying and observing the behavior of primates is in fact a way of observing the behavior of our ancestors. A man, who became famous with that, is the now 64 years old Frans de Waal.

(born 29 October 1948), a Dutch primatologist and ethologist, professor of Primate Behavior in the Emory University psychology department in Atlanta, Georgia, and director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center,

author of numerous books including "Chimpanzee Politics" and "Our Inner Ape". His research centers on primate social behavior, including conflict resolution, cooperation, inequity aversion, and food-sharing.

The apes that he observed possessed an amazing intelligence. They were able to agree with each other in very sophisticated ways. 

They had a sense of social rules. They were able to see themselves as  a "self" apart from others. And they had a memory that allowed them to relate events of the past and present to each other.

Together with his colleague dr. Sarah Brosnan de Waal started a series of behavioral experiments with Capuchin monkeys. They are intelligent, peaceful and have a very complex social life.

Creatures that can detect intentions, cherish expectations. Depending on what  I do, another responds hostile or friendly to me. 

Commonly, these reactions do not hit me like a lightning bolt, for I have beforehand expected them. When I say "please", I rather expect that to me a wish is granted, as when I bark a command. 

But where do expectations come from? Do only humans have expectations or monkeys too? And can one make visible an attitude of expectation of monkeys in an experiment.?

Brosnan and de Waal wanted to find out whether Capuchin monkeys expect, that they are treated in a fair way. Do these monkeys have a real sense of FAIRNESS like humans have?

Here I can let Frans de Waal take over. You really have to see this.

Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8mynrRd7Ak

Let me know when you are done….takes about three minutes.

The Discussion

[13:20:58] Lizzy Pleides: I love it

[13:21:02] Qwark Allen: ahahha so funny

[13:21:03] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hahahaha very funny

[13:21:13] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol this is funny

[13:21:17] herman Bergson: great isnt it....^_^

[13:21:19] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): amazing

[13:21:25] Qwark Allen: awesome

[13:21:25] Debbie Dee (framdor): delightful...

[13:21:27] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:21:28] herman Bergson: Yes amazing....

[13:21:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Envy!

[13:22:15] Vadaman: Great!

[13:22:53] herman Bergson: Everybody back?

[13:22:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): sense of fairness

[13:22:59] Debbie Dee (framdor): im back

[13:23:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:23:04] Mick Nerido: yes

[13:23:11] Vadaman: Back

[13:23:18] herman Bergson: They did an interesting variation of the test....

[13:23:21] Chu Ann (hermine): haha

[13:23:38] herman Bergson: they put a box of grapes in full vision of both apes....

[13:23:56] herman Bergson: but both apes got only pieces of cucumber as reward....

[13:24:26] herman Bergson: It showed that the cucumber was perfectly ok with them...both got the same reward...

[13:24:31] Qwark Allen: probably a human will throw the rock to the scientist

[13:24:45] herman Bergson: The seeing of the grapes didn't influence their behavior at all

[13:25:00] Debbie Dee (framdor): QED

[13:25:08] herman Bergson: Well the monkey threw the cucumber piece ^_^

[13:25:11] herman Bergson: good start

[13:25:25] Qwark Allen: ehhehe yes , my point

[13:25:29] herman Bergson: So he was almost human Qwark...^_^

[13:25:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is QED Debbie?

[13:25:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): proven mathematically

[13:25:55] herman Bergson: Quod erat demonstrandum

[13:26:03] herman Bergson: Latin

[13:26:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you

[13:26:19] herman Bergson: This is a part of a TED lecture by Frans de Waal which takes more than 16 minutes. You better watch that in your own time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Lm49XVkGQ

[13:26:34] herman Bergson: But watch it.....!

[13:26:48] herman Bergson: Homework!

[13:26:52] herman Bergson: Next lecture we'll continue on this issue.

Thank you ^_^

[13:27:15] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ^^

[13:27:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks herman.

[13:27:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Interesting to contrast the concept of envy with 'sense of fairness'

[13:27:36] herman Bergson: My pleasure Debbbie

[13:27:36] Chu Ann (hermine): thank you herman.

[13:27:48] Vadaman: Yes, thanks Herman.

[13:27:59] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you

[13:28:08] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Thinking biblically again... the story of the unequal pay rates

[13:28:21] herman Bergson: This all seems to give us some hope about mankind......in the long run...:-)

[13:28:29] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): very nice , herman

[13:29:01] herman Bergson: That is an interesting story Merlin indeed

[13:29:11] Qwark Allen: good stuff hermann

[13:29:18] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh ty. Glad somebody was listening ;)

[13:29:32] herman Bergson: But there is a big difference....

[13:29:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes?

[13:30:03] herman Bergson: in that biblical story men were all paid the same while they all had unequal labor tasks

[13:30:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes thats the one... one guy arrived late

[13:30:28] herman Bergson: The monkeys have the same task but are paid unequal....

[13:30:37] herman Bergson: yes....

[13:30:55] herman Bergson: but got paid as if he had arrived with the others...

[13:31:09] Merlin (merlin.saxondale) nods

[13:31:12] Vadaman: Made me think about the southern european uprising.

[13:31:17] herman Bergson: interesting.....

[13:31:31] herman Bergson: In what way Vada?

[13:32:32] herman Bergson: Still thinking about Merlins remark...

[13:32:48] Vadaman: The riots. The unemploiment. The anger.

[13:33:03] herman Bergson: What would happen when both monkeys were paid a grape while only one had to return a stone?

[13:33:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): good question

[13:33:42] Vadaman: Good question indeed.

[13:33:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well the stone is only a token in this case

[13:33:58] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Maybe needs a more substantial task

[13:34:02] herman Bergson: It is work Merlin....

[13:34:18] herman Bergson: One has to work for his grape while the other gets it for free

[13:34:52] herman Bergson: Question is....

[13:35:05] herman Bergson: does the ape mind returning stones

[13:35:10] herman Bergson: that is...

[13:35:23] herman Bergson: relates it to a higher reward...like humans would do?

[13:35:43] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): it is not easy to answer, because of that simplification

[13:35:57] Debbie Dee (framdor): So, your hypothesis is that creatures that can "detect intentions and cherish expectations" develop moral and ethical values....

[13:36:03] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I could not predict...it needs another experiment

[13:36:05] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): the human comparison will be more complicated

[13:36:11] herman Bergson: You only can answer it by doing the tests with the apes

[13:36:33] Qwark Allen: i saw a bit of the link you pasted

[13:36:33] Chu Ann (hermine): right

[13:36:37] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....that is what I am thinking about....

[13:36:38] Chu Ann (hermine): that's also my opinion

[13:36:43] Qwark Allen: it will answer that question

[13:36:58] Chu Ann (hermine): k will test it with my cats tomorrow^^

[13:37:05] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:37:06] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): ^

[13:37:07] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:37:07] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:37:10] herman Bergson: When the apes only are focused on the reward whatever they do, they wont protest

[13:37:18] Chu Ann (hermine): it will be a disaster i know^^

[13:37:37] herman Bergson: You need two cats for that Chu ^_^

[13:37:47] Qwark Allen: there is a test with selfish and pro social behavior

[13:37:57] Chu Ann (hermine): ok. one will be locked

[13:37:57] Qwark Allen: fun to see how it goes

[13:38:13] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark....

[13:38:42] Qwark Allen: when the monkey doesn`t receive the reward protests with the other monkey, then the other gets more selfish

[13:38:43] Chu Ann (hermine): it is not easy to see in a mind of a pe

[13:38:45] herman Bergson: in the 16 minutes video you will see more funny things....

[13:39:09] herman Bergson: No Chu, but I will get to that in the next lecture

[13:39:28] Chu Ann (hermine): ok, but thursday i have no time;-((

[13:39:35] Chu Ann (hermine): i guess i have to read the blog then

[13:39:45] herman Bergson: The text will be published in the blog always

[13:39:53] Chu Ann (hermine): good

[13:39:58] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): good to know

[13:40:25] herman Bergson: all 438 or more lectures of all projects you can find there ^_^

[13:40:35] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): uiii much to read

[13:40:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): Hermans library ;)

[13:40:51] herman Bergson: People from all over the world come at least to the page...

[13:40:58] Chu Ann (hermine): ^^

[13:41:01] herman Bergson: Whether they read it or not I don't know ^_^

[13:41:08] herman Bergson: I hope they do:-)

[13:41:23] Qwark Allen: i think so, so many interesting ideas there

[13:41:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes I have a web site with stats and you can never tell what is in the mind of the viewer

[13:41:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): I've used it

[13:41:45] herman Bergson: There on the wall..the map of the world..

[13:42:04] herman Bergson: Well....

[13:42:21] herman Bergson: Thank you all again....you are a nice class ^_^

[13:42:30] herman Bergson: See you on Thursday....

[13:42:37] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:42:41] Qwark Allen: thank you hermann

[13:42:48] Qwark Allen: very good as usual .-)))

[13:42:50] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

[13:42:52] Chu Ann (hermine): have a lovely rest of the week all

[13:42:54] herman Bergson: My pleasure Qwark

[13:42:57] Qwark Allen: going to see the all video now

[13:43:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks herman ;) - im going to watch the homework

[13:43:07] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): have a nice week too, herman

[13:43:11] Qwark Allen: you are always so enlightening

[13:43:12] herman Bergson: Yes plz do....it is worth it

[13:43:21] Vadaman: Thanks Herman.

[13:43:31] Lizzy Pleides: have a nice evening all!

[13:43:42] Chu Ann (hermine): so bye all and see u next week^^

[13:43:44] herman Bergson: Bye Lizzy ^_^

[13:43:49] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): by lizzy

[13:43:49] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): thanks Herman :)