472: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 37

Niklas Luhmann (1927 – 1998) was a German sociologist, and a prominent thinker in sociological systems theory. 

He has shown why our social systems work the way they work. Instead of a "holistic" society, we always have  only perspectives on society 

and instead of a "holistic" morality we only have perspectives on morality. This is exactly what distinguishes a modern functionally differentiated society of a total system, such as the Christian Middle Ages. 

Today, however, there is not even a separate subsystem called "morality" in society, according to Luhmann.

Morality can be a social weapon by discrediting someone morally . Or is it a personal thing, a psychological point of view.  But for the functioning of the economy, politics, law and so on morality is completely irrelevant.

Just think of the situation that you have personal moral problems with what your boss demands of you. 

When you quit your job, everybody knows that there are ten others willing to take over and do what is asked with the justification "it is part of the job".

The liability of an economic system is established by the rules of ownership, exchange, or money, but not by a morality whatsoever, teaches the sociologist. 

Whether my doctor, my teacher or my bank advisor are "good" people, does not matter for their roles. 

Whether in the system of justice, the economy, education, health or the arts, nobody is better paid, because he is a good person. 

Luhmann even goes so far as to say that the task of moral philosophy is to warn "against morality". The more we demand morality in our society, 

all the more unacceptable interference will occur; and the more the functioning of the systems would be disrupted.

An extreme view, but today we are quite willing to believe in this system theoretical approach of society, which seems paradoxically contrary to our increased individualism.

Something is wrong here, don't you think so? We all want to think of our selves, that we are good and moral people, but it seems that we have all kinds of tricks to hide our weak moments.

Yet we seem to live in systems in which we are just little cogs, where the system is not interested in our personal moral sentiments.

And we save our souls by thinking that we only play a role in the different systems, politics, work, friends, family.

You may regard society as a collection of systems, but these abstract systems are themselves collections of concrete systems, of individual moral beings.

And when you realize that, you understand how necessary it is to be well aware of that in every "role" you play.

As Luhmann suggested: The more we demand morality in our society, all the more unacceptable interference; and the more the functioning of the systems would be disrupted.

"the more UNACCEPTABLE" interference" ??? On the contrary, I would say!. Like we saw in the debates about bonuses for malpracticing bankers and managers,

I think exactly that we must dot: disrupt all the systems by moral debates, like the Chinese president Xi Jinping started a national campaign against corruption and self-enrichment.

And according to an article in my newspaper today it works! And it even has reached Youtube. 

A local party boss was fired because he had organized a very costly diner with exclusive dishes for comrade bosses and investors. Who is paying the bills here ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMG6pZTFyUE

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:20] Gemma Allen: interesting

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:20] Gemma Allen: there are so many examples of that

[13:21] Gemma Allen: personal morality in conflict

[13:21] herman Bergson: Corruption is one of the biggest problems in this world....

[13:21] Gemma Allen: with the business

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: yes and thats a huge problem

[13:21] Debbie DJ: so while we are little cogs, we need to conform to the machine...

[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma, but the individual is often pushed aside, because this is how the system whichever works

[13:22] Gemma Allen: right

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: as long they make money they dont care how much they pollute or how many dies in the process it seems , At least not if the alternatives reduce the yield for them

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: awful

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: that kind of thinking have to stop

[13:22] herman Bergson: There you have it Bejiita....you talk about "THEY"

[13:23] Debbie DJ: Large corporations can do anything, including kill people so long as they make a profit.... My quote...

[13:23] herman Bergson: But these "THEY" are moral human beings just like we are

[13:23] Gemma Allen: well

[13:23] abstrusia: the problem starts with everyone of us

[13:23] Gemma Allen: it depends on how they look at the issues of money

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes abstrusia....

[13:24] herman Bergson: and our tendency to conform to the group

[13:24] Debbie DJ: The problem is us ;) we are not separate from the world...

[13:24] Gemma Allen: this was one of the reasons that unions were developed in the first place

[13:24] abstrusia: did everyone of you pay taxes for your scrubwoman?

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: the problem starts with juristic persons as they do not have any kind of morality

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: yes but it seems that wen they are behind those shields that are their company and are the big bosses there they loose all perspective of morality, The same analogy sort of like when u are in the car u get more aggressive ( road rage) then when u are out walking around people

[13:24] Gemma Allen: to help the workers overcome the lack of morality of the business owners

[13:25] herman Bergson: yes...and this is how revolutions initially stat....as a conflict of values between different groeups or systems

[13:25] Gemma Allen: regarding fair wages

[13:25] Gemma Allen: fair hours

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:25] herman Bergson: It seems to me that the basic cause of all this is the economic system....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: those are important things indeed

[13:26] herman Bergson: one the one hand....complete collectivism failed....

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Remember too that the corporate bosses have their own support group of peers, that provide a consistent "moral" framework...

[13:26] herman Bergson: on the other hand capitalism failed too...

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie.....that is where Luhmann was right....

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:27] herman Bergson: morality from a certain perspective only exists...

[13:27] Gemma Allen: i was reading in the new york times about your countryman who produced studies of the human brain that were not true at all

[13:27] Gemma Allen: forgot his name

[13:27] herman Bergson: Stapel?

[13:27] Gemma Allen: yes

[13:27] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:27] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:27] herman Bergson: Was not about the brain....

[13:27] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:27] herman Bergson: he is social psychological researcher

[13:28] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:28] herman Bergson: was a psychologist

[13:28] herman Bergson: a disaster this man....

[13:28] Gemma Allen: i guess all his morality was justified by his mind

[13:28] herman Bergson: we also have a cultural antropologist for you who did the same on an equal scale :-)

[13:28] Gemma Allen: oh swell

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes, but now he is crying crocodile tears.....this Stapel fellow :-)

[13:29] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:29] herman Bergson: admitting that he did something wrong

[13:29] herman Bergson: Big article with photo in y newspaer last weekend...

[13:30] herman Bergson: I didnt take the trouble to read it....:-))

[13:30] Gemma Allen: probably teh same as was in the nY times

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:30] herman Bergson: But regarding the level of moral evolution we still have a lonfg way to go

[13:31] herman Bergson: Our brain is a tricky machine and certainly not in balance regarding all functions

[13:31] seekerp: i have a question, we r basing our morality on what?

[13:31] seekerp: God, biology ?

[13:31] seekerp: fear of death?

[13:32] herman Bergson: like for instance we are good in rationalizing our moral errors

[13:32] Debbie DJ: group acceptance!

[13:32] seekerp: meaning?

[13:32] herman Bergson: good question Seekerp..yes

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:33] herman Bergson: in fact at least in my opinion it is based on social behavior as has evolved in groups

[13:33] herman Bergson: so based on biology

[13:33] abstrusia: i think morality is the behaving to other individuals

[13:33] seekerp: has evolved from what to what and why?

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes it is abstrusia....

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: If you are in a group u get biased by their moral values even if they might not be right

[13:33] herman Bergson: morality is always defined in relation to the other

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: respect to another group or more in general

[13:34] Debbie DJ: Evolves continuously, as an interaction between the group norms and personal growth

[13:34] seekerp: so bees have morality too?

[13:34] herman Bergson: when you are alone on an island there hardly can be morality

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: bees only follow instinct

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: i think so

[13:34] seekerp: and we don't?

[13:34] herman Bergson: no Seekerp.....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: we do but we also can make own desicions that are not hard coded into the brain from start

[13:34] herman Bergson: only organisms who can differentiate between good and evil have to make moral choices

[13:35] seekerp: thats is the key herman

[13:35] herman Bergson: Like Frans de Waal has demonstrated....

[13:35] Debbie DJ: words....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: on thew other hand those have a base in instinct too i guess

[13:35] seekerp: i don't think there is good and evil

[13:35] herman Bergson: some monkeys, bonobos, have a real sense of unfainess

[13:35] abstrusia: and who use his personal moral choice?

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: very tricky how this works I think

[13:35] Debbie DJ: failing... bees don't know good or bad?

[13:35] seekerp: but of course try explaining that to regular people

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:36] herman Bergson: ok..no good and evil....

[13:36] seekerp: in my opinion the same goes for good or bad

[13:36] herman Bergson: then use the word acceptable and unacceptable behavior in the group

[13:36] Debbie DJ: ok..

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: evil for me is to make other suffer for example and good to make others happy

[13:36] herman Bergson: for instance....

[13:36] herman Bergson: you get up walk over and just kill Beertje...

[13:36] herman Bergson: beng...

[13:37] herman Bergson: no reason...just your whim...

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: that would be 100 evil act

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: noooooo

[13:37] seekerp: too many assumptions there, what uis happiness ? and u make others happy because u r happy or ust becasue it makes u feel good

[13:37] herman Bergson: A group can nit survive with such behavior among its members...

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: i protect you Beertje

[13:37] seekerp: can we make a murderer happy?

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: pfew..thanks Lizzy

[13:37] herman Bergson: I am not talking about happiness....

[13:38] seekerp: that is morality

[13:38] herman Bergson: I am talking about the functionality of behavior in a group

[13:38] seekerp: what is the point then

[13:38] seekerp: we r moral as long as it can makes happy

[13:38] seekerp: whatever that means

[13:38] herman Bergson: the point is that your presence in the group becomes unacceptable when you like to use random violence against other members of the group

[13:38] seekerp: at least thats what we think as humans

[13:38] herman Bergson: simple as that

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats very logical

[13:39] seekerp: ok se we can say that morality is a rule?

[13:39] herman Bergson: in no socail group of mamels you see random violence...

[13:39] seekerp: dictacted by the fact that we want to live as long as possible?

[13:40] herman Bergson: it even is possible as I mentioned in another lecture to live without violence

[13:40] seekerp: but does that mean there is good or bad in the universe

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes seekerp...all organisms have a drive to live

[13:40] herman Bergson: that is plain biology

[13:40] herman Bergson: we also have like other social animals a desire to share and care for eachother...

[13:40] seekerp: i think if a person kills others for no reason the universe dont ''feels' that it was bad

[13:41] seekerp: only relative to our small brains

[13:41] herman Bergson: I am not interested in the univers...

[13:41] herman Bergson: I am interested in what the othermembers of the group think about it

[13:41] seekerp: well we r in the universe

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: the group sends you to the universe if you killme

[13:42] Debbie DJ: we are in a local vortex of the universe, our values come from our peers.

[13:42] seekerp: and to make our rules only limited to our brains is not all we can do

[13:42] Debbie DJ: ego...

[13:42] seekerp: if thats the case we wouldn't be going crazy about the central questions

[13:42] Debbie DJ: lol.

[13:43] herman Bergson: what do you mean by that seekerp?

[13:43] herman Bergson: anyway...

[13:44] seekerp: think about it we cant really think that we there were no planet earth the whole universe will disappear ( and with it the laws and even evolution as u guys said)

[13:44] Debbie DJ: Debbie thinks seekerp must attent lectures more often ;))))

[13:44] herman Bergson: I think that contrary to what a general oppinion seems to be in certain groups/systems....we HAVE to emphasize personal morality....

[[13:45] herman Bergson: and not as a personal issue only.....

[13:45] seekerp: sure but the confusion comes when people think there r moral rules written on stone

[13:45] Debbie DJ: agreed.

[13:45] herman Bergson: but we have to question the morality of the systems we are in too....

[13:46] seekerp: religion and political belief

[13:46] seekerp: sure

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] herman Bergson: They are not written in stone seekerp....:-)

[13:47] herman Bergson: the present economic crisis shows signs of such a beginning of a moral debate about the individual within the system

[13:47] seekerp: we must go guys

[13:47] seekerp: a pleasure

[13:47] herman Bergson: thank you for your participation seekerp...

[13:47] abstrusia: most people wants that personal morality starts at other persons, the politics, the bosses they should start, but wie are also part of the system

[13:47] Mouse Moorlord: thank you and bye

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu ㋡

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes abstusia.....it is always 'the other" :-)

[13:48] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:48] herman Bergson: we are good, but the others are bad.....:-)

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:48] abstrusia: and so nobody starts

[13:49] herman Bergson: nobody will say of himself that HE is a bad person....

[13:49] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:49] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:49] Gemma Allen: oh i know a few that do

[13:49] Gemma Allen: proud of it

[13:49] herman Bergson: but easily about someone else ^_^

[13:49] abstrusia: to loose morality in some parts of the life ist not unusual today

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: many demand morality from others and are immoral themselves

[13:49] Debbie DJ: Gemma - that "Bad" means "Good"

[13:49] herman Bergson: no indeed...

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: sometimes i think politicians corporate owners ect are like kids in a sandbox throwing sand and mud on each other then pointing at each other yelling at same time " HE STARTED!"

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:50] herman Bergson: that is the problem abstrusia

[13:50] abstrusia: i often come home and say "i´m a whore"

[13:50] Debbie DJ: really?

[13:50] abstrusia: yes

[13:51] herman Bergson: that is as such not immoral I would say

[13:51] Debbie DJ: I thought i was alone in my self assessment :)

[13:51] herman Bergson: In old Rome you could have a job at the temple of Aphrodite

[13:51] herman Bergson: a decent job :-)

[13:51] abstrusia: :)

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] Debbie DJ: and these days there are good hooker jobs in the temples of sl...

[13:52] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:52] herman Bergson: Besides that, society has a very ambivalent attitude towards sexual behavior

[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed Gemma and well paid too :-))

[13:53] Debbie DJ: Sex inn itself is never immoral actually

[13:53] Gemma Allen: i did not say that

[13:53] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:53] abstrusia: no, because i know how the system is working, and my job is to help people saving taxes.)

[13:53] Gemma Allen: was deb

[13:53] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:53] herman Bergson: oops :-)

[13:53] Gemma Allen: WaaaHaHAhahAHA! AhhhhHAhahhAHhahHAH! haha!

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hahahaha

[13:53] Debbie DJ: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*ℋєєє ℋααααα ℋααααα ℋєєє ℋααααα ℋααααα*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*

[13:53] Gemma Allen: class is deteroriating

[13:53] Debbie DJ: sorry gemma... got you into trouble...

[13:54] Gemma Allen: hah

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] herman Bergson: yes.....time to thank you for your nice participation again :-)

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: aaa nice as always

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: Thanks to you Herman

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:54] Debbie DJ: thank you Herman...

[13:54] Gemma Allen: hope to be here tuesday

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: cu soon

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thanks herman - enjoy everyone ㋡

[13:54] Debbie DJ: see you next week... debbie rushes off slowly...

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman:)

[13:54] Gemma Allen: summer is coming fast now

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hugs all

[13:54] Gemma Allen: summer break

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten Beertje ;)

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] .: Beertje :.: lacht..dankjewel Ciska

[13:55] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

[13:55] Debbie DJ: byeeee

[13:55] .: Beertje :.: welterusten allemaal

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: good night everybody

[13:55] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje ^_^

[13:55] abstrusia: good night:)

[13:55] .: Beertje :.: bye:)

[14:06] VISTA ANIMATIONS CASUAL 2 MALE AO V09: 12% memory free (2030 Byte).

[14:07] WAINSCOT reports: Lizzy Pleides is on your land now!

[14:15] VISTA ANIMATIONS CASUAL 2 MALE AO V09: OFF

471: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 36

Ghana is one of the largest producers of cocoa, but it has a price. Children of 5 to 7 years old are working on the cacao plantations in appalling living conditions.

A New York cacao broker boosted , that he made big money with speculating with cacao. Then he was confronted with the fact 

that kids of 5 to 7 years old were poisoned by pesticides, working on the cacao plantations, exploited and underfed.

Yes, that was a sad thing to hear,  and personally he hated such situations, but in the cacao broker business there is no room for such sentiments.

In India and Bangladesh there are tens of thousands of children exploited in the textile industry. It is a known fact and we go to the department store and buy ourselves a nice summer outfit, made in India.

We all know these facts. Then, how is it possible that we can live in these two worlds without being emotionally torn apart.

On the one hand the world of our personal interests and experiences and on the other hand the world of our profession, economic cycles and free market rules? 

Think also of bankers, who see individual clients been thrown into deep financial misery due to their actions. And still the show goes on.

How is it possible, that we can store two such contradictory facts in our mind, where they don't seem to meet, not even create a cognitive dissonance? Amazing, isn't it? Our self-image stays unharmed by it.

To understand this we have to listen to Talcott Parsons (1902 - 1979), an American sociologist who served on the faculty of Harvard University, who published his "The Social System" in 1951.

- quote -

The fundamental starting point is the concept of social systems of action. The interaction of individual actors, that is, takes place

under such conditions 

that it is possible to treat such a process of interaction as a system in the scientific sense and subject it to the same order of theoretical analysis which has been successfully applied to other types of systems in other sciences.

- end quote -

A highly abstract statement, but what does it mean? The old way of looking at society was to divide it into nobility, clergy, citizens and workers and to use this model to interpret social structures.

Parsons however suggests to understand society as a total of social systems of action, which you can organize according to their social function: performing religious ceremonies, administer justice, handling money and savings, educating children, taking care of the sick, and so on….. These systems are our society.

All these contexts have their own structure and become rather independent systems. Surgery has its specific place…a hospital. Mathematics don't belong there. That is a part of the educational system, for instance.

In all these systems we play roles. A broker at the New York Exchange has to make profits. That is the main rule of the system. What he thinks about exploited children in Ghana is not relevant for the system.

His moral insights belong to his personal social system. They don't fit in in his professional system. Like bankers, who knew that they caused financial disaster for some clients, justified their products by saying "There is no law who forbids selling them".

We have a serious issue here. Every social system has its own rules and goals and it is not a law of nature that these rules and goals are related to ethics.

Don't you know that drill? "What do you want with your moralizing about exploiting children or destroying rain forests and chancing away natives from there land?

You want me to close my factory and make hundreds of people loose their job? 

Besides that, when we don't buy thiese low cost produced textiles, that country won't have an economy at all anymore. You only can count on starvation for those people then!"

We may consider two fundamental questions.

1. Why in particular should I be the one, who tries to make the world a better place?

2. Can I, even when I really wanted to, really put any weight on the scale?

Let me give you one example of colliding social systems. Big department store companies in the Netherlands were forced to remove clothes from their collection, which were produced in India and Bangladesh due to public pressure.

And there still are organizations like Greenpeace, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch. We didn't have those in the Middle Ages, so I would say, we are learning, slowly but steadily.

Main Resources:

Richard David Precht, Die Kunst kein Egoist zu sein (2012)

The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:21] Mouse Moorlord: claps

[13:21] herman Bergson: I guess I yet managed to shot circuit Scors' antenna:-)

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: heheh

[13:22] .: Beertje :.: lol

[13:22] herman Bergson: the basic point here is sociology.....or...how to analyze society

[13:23] herman Bergson: and in a way it is a bit shocking if you follow Parsons

[13:23] Lizzy Pleides: if we only would pay a few more cents for our cloths the people in Bangladesh would have a better life

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:23] Gemma Allen: it is a hard judgement

[13:23] herman Bergson: A German sociologist. Niklas Luhman (1998+) went even further....

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: aaa

[13:24] seekerp: so is our fault?

[13:24] Gemma Allen: because it IS true in some of these countries they would have no job for that person earning so little for so much time

[13:24] herman Bergson: Morals isn't a part of these systems of social action alt all....morals belong only to the personal system....

[13:25] seekerp: what you guys think the solution is ?

[13:25] Gemma Allen: i wonder how the factory owners in bangledesh will justify MakIng the workers enter the building that fell down by saying no pay for a month if you dont

[13:25] herman Bergson: Well, like the argument....not selling these products will cost us jobs here...

[13:25] Gemma Allen: I think eventually the people will rise up

[13:25] Gemma Allen: and force changes in their own countries

[13:25] herman Bergson: In fact it is already happening Gemma

[13:25] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:25] Gemma Allen: today big demonstrations

[13:25] herman Bergson: Like in the Netherlands....

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: these countries are extremely corrupt

[13:26] seekerp: hank do u know anything about that?

[13:26] herman Bergson: the Big stores were scared like hell by the actions agains INdian and Bangladesh clothing

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:26] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:26] Gemma Allen: same here with walmart

[13:26] Gemma Allen: and other stores

[13:26] Hαηk: i kno alot bout netherlands because im from there lol

[13:26] Hαηk: XD

[13:26] herman Bergson: there....! So it is happpening.....still on a small scale perhaps....

[13:26] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:27] Gemma Allen: but i am I'm Sorry! to say i still buy clothing from those countries

[13:27] Gemma Allen: I sorry..

[13:27] seekerp: but what is it that we want

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: lets just hope it gives results also

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Seekerp....a good question....

[13:27] seekerp: what should our goal be?

[13:27] herman Bergson: and there is an answer to it....

[13:28] herman Bergson: we want what you want.....

[13:28] seekerp: so what do we do?

[13:28] seekerp: nothing?

[13:28] herman Bergson: I suppose you like to live a rewarding and fulfilled life....

[13:28] herman Bergson: to say ...life is worth living...

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: however i think that when we go and buy something we don't think about the situation for the ones that made them , see a good looking clothing with a good price so we buy it

[13:29] Gemma Allen: oops

[13:29] seekerp: but if we r talking other countries do we intervene or not?

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: eee what happened

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: aaa there I am

[13:29] herman Bergson  frowns at Bejiita

[13:29] Gemma Allen: hit a trigger

[13:29] Mouse Moorlord: yea but its different to every single person...

[13:29] .: Beertje :.: why not make your own cloths?..instead of buying what a child has made?

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes Mouse

[13:29] seekerp: no mouse

[13:29] seekerp: u r wrong mouse

[13:29] Gemma Allen: I think the only way we can intervene is by not buying

[13:30] seekerp: is the same for all

[13:30] herman Bergson: It makes no sense to start a discussion on details indeed...

[13:30] Gemma Allen: and using the large banks

[13:30] herman Bergson: but there are some basics every human being needs

[13:30] Gemma Allen: go to smaller local banks

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: the prob with that is we stopped do that when the industrial revolution came and the clothing factories sprung up in the 1800 s everywhere

[13:30] Gemma Allen: or credit unions

[13:30] Mouse Moorlord: well if you happy with less or if you happy with the most ...depends on the person right

[13:30] herman Bergson: Like food and shelter to begin with

[13:31] Gemma Allen: i wish i could sew my own clothes but then where does the material come from lllll same contries

[13:31] herman Bergson: People need a family and the safety of its family for instance

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: the cotton pluckers are starving too

[13:31] Gemma Allen: cant make my own shoes either ...

[13:31] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: yes and we don't have weaving looms at home anymore or the general knowledge how to use them, that knowledge only those working in the factories making fabric ect have nowadays

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma the world has become too complex for such wishes

[13:32] Gemma Allen: yep

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: and todays machines are to expensive also to have at hope, huge computerized things requiring certified training to operate and so

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: home

[13:32] Gemma Allen: during the summer i support local farmers and buy their produce

[13:33] herman Bergson: The main issue here is that we all are playing roles.....

[13:33] herman Bergson: you as a citizen Gemma, but on your job you play another role...

[13:34] herman Bergson: among friends again another one....

[13:34] herman Bergson: We love to think of ourselves as being one person....

[13:34] herman Bergson: In a way we are, I guess

[13:34] seekerp: sure herman but its been like that forever

[13:34] herman Bergson: but we are also a collection of roles

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: and we are having inter role conflicts sometimes

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Seekerp...nothing wrong with that

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy...

[13:35] Gemma Allen: yep

[13:36] herman Bergson: and what we may see more perhaps is an increase of conflicts between systems of social action

[13:36] herman Bergson: Like the banking system is really in conflict with other systems today

[13:37] herman Bergson: even the personal system of individuals where morals is a basic issue

[13:37] seekerp: but all this seems to me its due to the fact that we as humans don't have a clue what we want and how to get it

[13:38] seekerp: sometimes i think that we act like unicellular beings

[13:38] seekerp: just running away from pain towards pleasure

[13:38] herman Bergson: True Seekerp....

[13:38] seekerp: running from death towards life

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:38] seekerp: but is that it?

[13:39] herman Bergson: We are products of evolution....a random process without a goal

[13:39] seekerp: this is all

[13:39] seekerp: ?

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well...we have our fantasies Seekerp....

[13:39] seekerp: so if there is no goal then if everything its chaos its ok

[13:40] seekerp: since there is no clear goal

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: are you sure that evolution has not a goal?

[13:40] herman Bergson: I don't see the logic in that Seekerp...

[13:40] herman Bergson: What is there is causality...

[13:40] herman Bergson: not chaos

[13:40] seekerp: that is the question

[13:40] Gemma Allen: hope not

[13:40] seekerp: we dont know

[13:40] herman Bergson: To be sure that evolution has no goal is impossible of course

[13:41] seekerp: and think about before there was life on the planet

[13:41] seekerp: so there was no evolution then ?

[13:41] herman Bergson: but the more difficult question is...what is meant by "GOAL"

[13:42] seekerp: a propose

[13:42] seekerp: is god playing with us

[13:42] seekerp: or do we come from nothing

[13:42] seekerp: r we gods?

[13:42] herman Bergson: we come from matter

[13:42] seekerp: or nothing at all

[13:42] seekerp: sure

[13:42] seekerp: but even matter they say it came to be

[13:43] Gemma Allen: regardless we are all involved with ethics

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes what did all those sub atomic particles come from in the beginning

[13:43] seekerp: yes

[13:43] herman Bergson: yes...like any organic or chemical reaction can come to be

[13:43] seekerp: but is ethics separate from matter

[13:44] herman Bergson: not if you mean that ethics is produced by our mind

[13:44] seekerp: i dont think that

[13:44] herman Bergson: and it is the result of living together as social animals

[13:44] seekerp: social is too recent

[13:44] herman Bergson: A way to survive

[13:45] herman Bergson: we have no knowledge about that...

[13:45] seekerp: yes

[13:45] seekerp: but when we try to solve problems now

[13:45] herman Bergson: there may have been dinosaur species which lived in groups....so as social animals

[13:45] seekerp: we need those answer

[13:45] seekerp: if we dont have them

[13:45] seekerp: then we have the world we have now

[13:46] .: Beertje :.: sorry I have to go...have a goodnight all

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: TC Beertje

[13:46] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:46] Gemma Allen: beetjie

[13:46] Mouse Moorlord: ni ni

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: bye then Beertje

[13:46] .: Beertje :.: bye

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well Look at the wallThe comic......

[13:46] seekerp: we must go too guys

[13:46] Gemma Allen: i bought the gown she had on last week

[13:46] seekerp: have to go back to the other game

[13:46] Gemma Allen: her gown that is

[13:46] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:46] Gemma Allen: there is another game???

[13:46] seekerp: thank u guys

[13:47] seekerp: rl

[13:47] Gemma Allen: looool

[13:47] Gemma Allen: ok

[13:47] herman Bergson: ok Seekerp...:-)

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: bye Seekerb

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: bye seeker

[13:47] Mouse Moorlord: bye for now

[13:47] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: TC Mouse

[13:47] seekerp: its a game but we have no clue why we r playing it

[13:47] Gemma Allen: herman came on line to say sorrry he is so tired went to bed

[13:47] Gemma Allen: ♪♫♩ ((-:  QWARK  :-))  ♪♫♩

[13:47] herman Bergson: if you have no further remarks or questions you may return to all your games ^_^

[13:47] Gemma Allen: he is working too long hours and busy

[13:48] Gemma Allen: alll day

[13:48] Gemma Allen: 12 hours

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aaaw

[13:48] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: I miss him

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes so I heard Gemma ....poor guy...

[13:48] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

470: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 35

Drew Westen, professor in the Departments of Psychology and Psychiatry at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia wrote the book "The Political Brain: The Role of Emotion in Deciding the Fate of the Nation" (2007)

-quote-

The central thesis of this book is that the vision of the mind that has captured the imagination of philosophers, cognitive scientists, economists, and political scientists since the eighteenth century

--a dispassionate mind that makes decisions by weighing the evidence and reasoning to the most valid conclusions--bears no relation to how the mind and brain actually work. (p. ix, Introduction)

- end quote -

And this is exactly what I am lecturing about in the past few projects. As a traditionally educated philosopher it is a steadily increasing problem for me.

Descartes (1650+) thought that he had found the roots of certain knowledge with his "Cogito, ergo sum". Kant  (1804+) believed that he had found the rational basis of ethics in his Categorical Imperative.

They both believed that the real human being was guided by the "dispassionate mind". And that is the big mistake of philosophy, at least in certain areas like ethics.

The core of our moral actions is not based on Kantian ideas but on our self-image. Our self-image and self-esteem are our most valuable possessions in life.

We'll do anything to keep them unharmed. And for that we have developed a number of tricks, which iron out the unethical wrinkles and make all look smooth and right.

One method is to change our language. The "war on terror" was changed into "Overseas Contingency Operations".  And thus  US intervention abroad looked like an operation of the Red Cross.

In war is almost everything allowed to justify killing.  We don't kill human beings, we kill the ENEMY. This is not a metaphor for hostile human beings, 'human being' is completely replaced by 'enemy'.

All kinds of tricks to keep our self-image unharmed. In general we just want to believe, that we are reasonable, decent people, who make the right decisions and don't behave immoral.

We love this image. Just think…when you hear people talk about cars or politics you hardly listen, but as soon as you hear your name mentioned your ears grow at least twice at large.

In everyday psychology when they blame us, we are never to blame. It were the circumstances, that brought us in this position.

On the other hand, when we judge the actions of others, we are prone to say, "you know, he is not such a smart guy" or "how dumb can you be?!"

In the fairytale of Aesop (about 500 BC) the fox wanted the grapes, but he couldn't reach them. Then he says to himself…well those grapes will taste like acid. Why should I jump to try to get them? 

Already the ancient Greek knew of cognitive dissonance. In modern psychology, cognitive dissonance is the feeling of discomfort 

when simultaneously holding two or more conflicting cognitions: ideas, beliefs, values or emotional reactions. Rationalization (making excuses) is often involved in reducing anxiety about conflicting cognitions.

When we are in such a situation, we could change our behavior or ideas. But that is exactly what we don't like to do. We rather kill the messenger and yell: "He is a communist !!!!!"

This is only a small sample of the ways our mind has found ways to keep our self-image and self-esteem undamaged.

And it leaves me with the question what to do with academic philosophical debates on ethics. I haven't an answer yet.

Main Resources:

Richard David Precht, Die Kunst kein Egoist zu sein (2012)

The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:21] Debbie DJ: *•.¸♥MwAHh♥¸.•*

[13:21] Lizzy Pleides: brilliant Herman!

[13:21] herman Bergson: thank you

[13:22] herman Bergson blushes

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: ah ㋡

[13:22] .: Beertje :.: it's always hard to say ..put the blame on me..

[13:22] Debbie DJ: I hope you figure it out. I caame to get the answers , oh gur :)

[13:22] .: Beertje :.: lol Debbie

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Ciska

[13:22] herman Bergson: ohmy

[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: hello all - i guess i'm too late

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: hi CIska

[13:23] herman Bergson: Hi Ciska :-)

[13:23] Debbie DJ: Hi ciska

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman

[13:23] .: Beertje :.: hallo Ciska

[13:23] herman Bergson: Still on Wintertime? ^_^

[13:23] herman Bergson: Anyway....

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: hello Framdor herman Beertje Lizzy and Bejiita ㋡

[13:23] Ciska Riverstone: seems so ;)

[13:24] herman Bergson: the point is that our mind has found a number of ways to call something straight what is bend :-)

[13:24] Debbie DJ: So Herman, we use language to deporsanilise killing. We also do a similar thing with advertising... present facts in a certain way to make things look good and sell.

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: manipulation

[13:24] Debbie DJ: and to some extent, self delusion....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: and then when u get the stuff its just crap sometimes what they said was so good

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: in the commercial

[13:25] herman Bergson: it is not self delusion Debbie....it is to keep our belief upright that we are good people

[13:25] Debbie DJ: we want to believe that the cosmetic (or product) will make us more accepted...

[13:26] herman Bergson: ahh yes...

[13:26] .: Beertje :.: even shampoo..

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: its like a status thing

[13:26] herman Bergson: such ads play with our doubts about our self image

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: it also belongs to our congenital selfishness probably to behave like this

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....status will be a next subject of a lecture

[13:26] Debbie DJ: and we lie to ourselves at so many levels... the popular ethics are almost a shield

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: same thing with brands of clothes, even if the difference is just the brand and not in quality everyone just have to have THOSE even they cost maybe twice or more just cause of the commercials

[13:27] Debbie DJ: as in - its ok to kill the enemy... we don't really believe that

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: Lewis Jeans for ex

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes we do even unconsciously....

[13:28] herman Bergson: But we are not selfish Lizzy...we protect ourselves..our self-esteem

[13:28] Debbie DJ: and it is this framework of self delusion that makes us behave the way we do...

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:28] herman Bergson: I think we have a kind of double image of ourselves.....

[13:29] herman Bergson: You see that in history.....

[13:29] herman Bergson: what is history...?

[13:29] herman Bergson: the sequence of one great statesman after the other...

[13:29] herman Bergson: or the social processes in societies that lead to all kinds of changes...

[13:29] herman Bergson: But ok...

[13:29] Debbie DJ: So maybe its not how to not be an egotist that matters, but overcoming fear and self delusion

[13:30] herman Bergson: assume it is the work of great statesmen...

[13:30] herman Bergson: But when you read for what reasons some great statesmen screwed up a conference on peace ....

[13:30] Debbie DJ: Granted there are great leaders - but don't they just change the language, and motivate people to change direction for their own ends?

[13:31] herman Bergson: just because individuals don't like each other....

[13:31] Ciska Riverstone: true herman - or because the food was making a bad mood

[13:31] herman Bergson: and in tis case I would say....feel themselves attacked in their self-image and self-esteem

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: the most great leaders are involved into a war

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes..even a bad wine can spoil an international meeting :-)

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: seems so

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: its hopeless

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: well..

[13:32] herman Bergson: no Bejiita..it is human

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: maybe not Bejiita

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: maybe we just focus on the wrong things

[13:32] Ciska Riverstone: when we think that being objective is soooo sooo good

[13:33] Debbie DJ: yes.. and to be human, is to want to feel ok, and have a good self image. even if we are jerks, we pretend to be nice...

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: well when u do a meeting like that you should focus on that and not ruin all just cause of the food taste crap or similar

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: maybe its time to choose people who work for societies differently

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:33] herman Bergson: the silly belief in the dispassionate mind

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: but maybe

[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: we need to focus on people who really can do that.... kind of

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: testing them first

[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: can they really be ok when they have the wrong wine ? ;)

[13:34] herman Bergson: I think that that os one of the biggest mistakes of today.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: in the media they tell us about negotiations about this or that....

[13:34] herman Bergson: people get together....

[13:35] herman Bergson: the comments in the newspaper are all based on the idea of the dispassionate mind

[13:35] herman Bergson: We are told to believe that these negotiators are rational beings only

[13:36] Debbie DJ: and trustworthy...

[13:36] herman Bergson: A big mistake....

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:36] Debbie DJ: The problem these days is there is not even one great leader visible around the world...

[13:36] herman Bergson: and so on

[13:36] herman Bergson: From the start we should be informed that Mr A doesn't like Mr B because he smells....

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:37] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: and therefore they might start W W 3

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: yak

[13:37] herman Bergson: Don't make jokes about that Bejiita...it has happened in history

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: its almost like that in some circumstances I d say

[13:37] herman Bergson: ^_^

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: when personal problems destroy much more important things like ex peace meetings

[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: well... look at hitler... any psychologist nowadays could have told you why this man was absolutely not made for his job

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: that can affect the entire world

[13:38] herman Bergson: True Ciska

[13:38] Debbie DJ: Herman, you always express optimism for the world, but we are all unable to deal with the current problems... we just pretend it will all be ok...

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: look at many of the "big managers"

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: some of them fit descriptions of psychopats

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: I am very sorry, i have go, TC all and thank you Herman

[13:39] herman Bergson smiles at Debbie

[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: enjoy lizzy

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ok cu Lizzy

[13:39] herman Bergson: No Debbie...these problems only keep us busy and at our toes :-)

[13:40] Debbie DJ: see - you did the positive thing again :)

[13:40] herman Bergson: Ever imagined how dull paradise would be?

[13:40] Debbie DJ: I like it...

[13:40] Debbie DJ: yes... Unendurable happiness indefinitely prolonged... sound like a good idea at first...

[13:41] herman Bergson: Believe it or not Debbie....but poverty HAS decreased in the world...

[13:41] Debbie DJ: Herman that is not true.

[13:41] Debbie DJ: there are 7 Bn people and half the oil is finished

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: you can't reconise happines without sadness

[13:41] herman Bergson: Read it in my newspaper....IMF report or so...

[13:42] Debbie DJ: Statistics are the main weapons of the liars...

[13:42] herman Bergson: True Debbie :-)

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: a matter of how this was measured i guess...

[13:42] Debbie DJ: I've compiled a few biassed reports my self...

[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: yes debbie

[13:42] herman Bergson: Probably I love the positive lies of my newspaper then :-)

[13:43] Debbie DJ: In south africa, the paper said we are all 3 % poorer since 2008

[13:43] Debbie DJ: wtf???

[13:43] herman Bergson: you know...cognitive dissonance ? ^_^

[13:43] Debbie DJ: how do they measure that ?

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: guess was biased on the finance crisis then

[13:44] Debbie DJ: yes... thanks for reminding me of cognitive dissonance - great phrase.

[13:44] herman Bergson: yes I am always amazed by such figures....

[13:45] Debbie DJ: I think 49.53% of all statistics are made up on the spur of the moment

[13:45] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:45] herman Bergson: Good and really accurate estimate, Debbie :-)

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: aaa true

[13:45] herman Bergson: I thought it was 49.52%

[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: and interpreted as needed.

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: hahahah

[[13:46] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:46] Debbie DJ: it makes the point

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

[13:47] herman Bergson: Ok ...thank you all again for your participation...

[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman - sorry for being late

[13:47] Debbie DJ: anyway, your insights as a classically trained philosopher into the current situation are great.

[13:47] herman Bergson: If you have no questions or remarks anymore.....

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: nice again Herman

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:47] Debbie DJ: thanks for class !

[13:47] herman Bergson: My pleasure Debbie...

[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^