474: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 39

What is wrong with our social system? How could a financial crisis occur in such a magnitude, where nobody really saw it coming?

The system has become so complicated that every economist, risk manager, lawyer, banker only can see what is happening nearby. 

Nobody sees the whole picture and just assumes that what the man above him does, is ok, who assumes the same of the man above him and so on.

It is a general feature of our economic system. Thousands of people work in it to keep the train running. 

But they can't see further than their own train carriage and the ones before and behind them. But who decides on the direction of the  train?

This is a question you almost never hear in the debates. The answer you get is stereotype but empty: economic growth and employment.

We are so used to the concept of economic growth that we almost automatically assume that good economy is when it just goes on like that. Good economy = growth.

The odd thing here is that great thinkers on economics have given quite a different answer. Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill, Karl Marx, David Ricardo and John Maynard Keynes for instance.

They all said in their own way that the direction of the economy should be right. And WHAT is right here? There they agreed: the right direction is the same direction ethics points in.

Economy is in fact the realisation of a moral principle with practical and financial means. In other words, its goal is to create the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people.

What makes us happy is to live a good and rewarding life together with our fellowmen. This means that behind every economic theory is a philosophy of life, a view of life, a social ideal.

Economics isn't an unbiassed theory, not the mathematics of money, labor and resources. It is not a science like physics is, tho some love to make you believe it is an exact science.

A good life is a mixture of material and immaterial well-being. Material prosperity is not an end in itself, necessary yes, but not a sufficient condition for our well-being.

So much for the theory. Philosophers, however, are nowadays replaced by economists, lobbyists, spin doctors and consultants. Their theme isn't the future, but chances on the market, chances of power and career.

They just want to keep the system going as it is. Yet deciding on the direction of our society and economy was around 1800 still part of a moral debate.

But since economics has obtained the status of an independent science and can impress the spectators with impressive mathematical formulas, it developed its own "morals".

It has given the answer to the question what needs in society should be dealt with first and which later and the primary need has become : consumption, for consumption implies growth.

For every need we have there is a product, which you can buy. We can buy joy and pleasure, things that make us feel to  be different and standing out. We can buy security and insurances.

Every commercial tells us the same story. This is the product you always have been looking for!

The more we "materialize" our life, the better our life will be, some assume.

That new computer with it awesome graphic power, lots of memory and dual core super fast processor will give you finally what you always have longed for in SL, they whisper in our ear.

-to be continued

Main Resources:

Richard David Precht, Die Kunst kein Egoist zu sein (2012)

The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: -to be continued. thank you ^_^

[13:23] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman

[13:24] herman Bergson: the floor is yours :-))

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: indeed thats how it works, making us buy more and more and more even we really don't need it but just because its the latest model

[13:24] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita....

[13:24] .: Beertje :.: they create a need..and we believe it

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: even if we already have good working stuff already

[13:24] herman Bergson: and the peculiar thing is...

[13:24] .: Beertje :.: like a galaxy 4? Bejiita?

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: hehe well im happy with mine for now

[13:25] herman Bergson: we never needs iPhones etc...but now we have them we cant live without them anymore

[13:25] Goblin Crosby: oh i have one of those lol

[13:25] herman Bergson: You are not the only one Goblin :-))

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: however got an ssd for my laptop but that was needed, together with linux the machine is now 10 times faster then when it was new and loaded with really slow hard drive and crap vista

[13:25] herman Bergson: But don't you need the latest model?

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: but i still use same computer i didn't buy a new one, just replaced the drive and os

[13:26] Goblin Crosby: Well this is actually my first cellphone so after years of watching everyone else i went out and got this one

[13:27] Goblin Crosby: It wasn't a need i'm sure

[13:27] herman Bergson: I got the old Nokia of my wife....and never use it ^_^

[13:27] Goblin Crosby: but it does make life easier

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes Goblin...easier....but does it make your life happier too?

[13:27] .: Beertje :.: i never bought a cellphone..I still have an old free one

[13:27] .: Beertje :.: it still does what it has to do...:)

[13:28] herman Bergson: The point today is that our economy is based on consumption....

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: I always asked myself why in commercials it is allowed to lie, they promise us a wonderful life with their products and in fact it is not true

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: the good thing with the one i have is i can have my work and similar in it , so i don't need all these papers everywhere

[13:28] Goblin Crosby: oh actually a bit more frustrating if i sit down and think about it and now i'm in a contract and stuck paying this ob seen monthly bill

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: very convenient

[13:28] herman Bergson: Not on a reasonable distribution of resources and services in this world

[13:29] herman Bergson: Exactly Goblin...

[13:29] .: Beertje :.: they always lie Lizzy..they make always things better..were the old things nog good enough anymore?

[13:29] herman Bergson: We think that all these new gadgets contribute to our freedom and possibilities....

[13:29] Goblin Crosby: they make you think u need it then once u get it they use a contract to hold over our head so in a way they use fear to keep u coming back

[13:29] herman Bergson: but do they really?

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: i want my stuff to last as long as possible at least

[13:30] herman Bergson: I'll elaborate on these issues in the next lecture...

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: to be somewhat future safe

[13:30] Goblin Crosby: Well i have good credit and if i don't hold true to the contract it could hurt my credit so the fear of a lower credit score

[13:30] .: Beertje :.: how long is that Bejiita?

[13:31] .: Beertje :.: tomorrow?

[13:31] .: Beertje :.: our monitors are made for 3 years..then they will collaps

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: for ex my computer and tv here is same as when i moved in here about 6 years ago, just a bit better graphic card and bigger drive but otherwise the same

[13:31] .: Beertje :.: why?

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: also the tv, sure there is smart tvs and so but this i have works yet

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: so i don't really need tv get a new i feel

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: and this computer perform so good

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: no need replacing it

[13:32] herman Bergson: Seems you are inmune to commercials Bejiita :-))

[13:32] .: Beertje :.: but it's not only computers and stuff like that..it's everything

[13:32] herman Bergson: oh yes...

[13:33] herman Bergson: your shampoo.....30% better now....

[13:33] herman Bergson: or your car....

[13:33] .: Beertje :.: they want us to buy and buy and buy..even if we don't need it

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: well if i don't have a particular thing for a task ill get it , for ex my galaxy s3 cause a computer in my pocket is convenient but this is so good i don't need to get all new models after it

[13:33] herman Bergson: that is the system Beertje.....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: as long this one can perform what i want

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: we have thousands of promotional impulses every day, you can't be inmune

[13:34] .: Beertje :.: I often ask myself..do I need this...and if I doubt..I don't buy

[13:34] herman Bergson: And the most scary thing is....

[13:35] herman Bergson: the bankers continue their trade as if nothing has happened

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: the best is to go in town when the stores are closed beertje

[13:35] .: Beertje :.: lol Lizzy

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:35] herman Bergson: smart strategy Lizzy

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: Throws an S4 at Beertje

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: and a SSD drive

[13:36] Goblin Crosby: but along with them making us think we need it because its better a part of our brain wants social acceptance so we buy in hopes to be accepted by our peers in some ways

[13:36] .: Beertje :.: throws it back...I don't need it Bejiita

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ritght thing´king

[13:36] herman Bergson: exactly Goblin....

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: thinking

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:36] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll deal with that....

[13:36] herman Bergson: the magic word is STATUS

[13:37] Goblin Crosby: peer pressure is a huge driving force in a material economy and Facebook has become the standard example of that

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: ah..Status....I'm allergic to that

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: its good these devices and similar exist but we dont need new ones all time

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: if we already have good working ones

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes latest stuff = status

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thats also a thing

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: also a problem

[13:38] herman Bergson: Bejiita...they'll tell you that they aren't good enough anymore

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: aaa

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: like the iPhone hype

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: when new model comes out there is a mob at the stores

[13:39] Goblin Crosby: you cant like anything on Facebook or the net without the adds of what u liked popping up on every site u go to minutes later

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes and the fact that people might laugh at you when you tell that you still have no flat screen TV with interactivity and internet :-)

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: i have a samsung 32 inch flat screen but its still working and i cant run sl on a smart tv i still need my computer for that

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: rareley watch tv

[13:40] herman Bergson: That is a hell indeed Goblin...to observe how you are tracked and watched

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: uses it mostly for this games and movies

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: watched hockey VM now

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: sweden won agains denmark 4 2

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson:  ♫♪♫♪ ♪♫♪♫   APPLAUSE    ♪♫♪♫ ♫♪♫♪ 

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: the fun thing was we played like crap first 2 episodes and then crushed them in the last one

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: unexpected

[13:41] herman Bergson smiles

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:41] Goblin Crosby: U would think in a society of such material speeding prices would decrease but its not the case in a solid economy things should in common since practice become more affordable

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: congrats Bejiita:)

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: shopping induces the release of happiness hormones, so its not only what the sellers tell us

[13:42] Goblin Crosby: yes instant gratification

[13:42] herman Bergson: indeed Lizzy.....the buying is the rewarding thing....the possession of the product isn't

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes read about that

[13:43] herman Bergson: after a few weeks the new dress is just another dress

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: but i mostly get that feeling when i see all working afterward for ex when i saw how well my laptop worked after i put that ssd in THEN came the real feeling

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: YES

[13:44] .: Beertje :.: but in my shop you can buy a LOT of dresses that will always be new:)

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: when i see that all payed off in the end

[13:44] herman Bergson: good ad, Beertje :-)

[13:44] Goblin Crosby: My mother is always borrowing money from friends and family a couple weeks back when she was shopping i asked her do you get high when you shop and she said yes

[13:44] Goblin Crosby: to her its a drug

[13:45] herman Bergson: Oh yes it really can be.....

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: aaaa ok

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed

[13:45] herman Bergson: it is in our brain.....

[13:45] herman Bergson: dopamine...

[13:45] herman Bergson: the reward hormon :-)

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: there are even brain scientists involves in making commercials

[13:46] herman Bergson: doesn't surprise me Lizzy....

[13:46] herman Bergson: Like we now have also behavioral economics

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: indeed i'm not surprised if they went that far

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: to make us continue our mass hysteria consumption

[13:47] .: Beertje :.: shops are decorated by those brain scientist...they know exactly what you will buy

[13:47] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:47] Goblin Crosby: Walmart hires specialist like that to arrange there stores

[13:47] herman Bergson: put test persons in an MRI scanner and show them pictures....

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: the thing is we need to see behind the commercials

[13:47] herman Bergson: of products or interiors..

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: they know exactly how to approach special customers, like children, woman, older people

[13:48] Goblin Crosby: nods

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: that the real message is not that we need it but that they just want our money in many cases and we really don't need that stuff

[13:48] .: Beertje :.: and men Lizzy:)

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: of course Beertje :-)

[13:48] .: Beertje :.: gear and stuff...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: some stuff is good but mush is just snake oil

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: and we don't need ALL new models coming out

[13:49] herman Bergson: Well...I notice that you are well prepared in ideas for my next lecture :-))

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ah ㋡

[13:49] herman Bergson: So thank you all again for your participation...

[13:50] herman Bergson: Next lecture will be this Thursday same time same place

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: cu soon then

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:50] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman

[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you

[13:50] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:50] Goblin Crosby: Thank you this was good i will be back for sure

[13:51] Goblin Crosby: it was nice meeting all of you

[13:51] herman Bergson: ok Goblin....thank you :-)

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: most of the time it's even better Goblin:)

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] Goblin Crosby: :)

[13:51] herman Bergson: Beertje :-)

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:51] Lizzy Pleides: yes please come regularly Goblin

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: always interesting

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: have a goodnight all:)

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cu al

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: truste

[13:51] Lizzy Pleides: Night Bertje, Night all

[13:51] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)

[13:53] herman Bergson: Hi Rodney....

[13:53] Rodney Handrick: Hi Herman

473: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 38

Watch the following Youtube movie. It will take only 2:09 minutes. Pay special attention to the last scene with the 14 months old kid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WABzcRMQ4h8

We have a natural inclination for cooperation and supporting each other. Those who mean that we are just selfish beings who go only after their own interests are wrong.

But if this inclination is in our genes, why do we, as adults, make such a limited use of it? There is a maybe somewhat disturbing answer to that question.

Take the next experiment; three groups of 20 months old children. When a child in group one showed cooperative behavior it received a reward, some little toy.

Those in group 2 were explicitly praised only. Group 3 didn't get any kind of reward for cooperative behavior.

The experiments were like the last one in the Youtube movie. What was the result? The children in group 2 and 3 retained their cooperative behavior through a series of tests.

However, the unconditional cooperative behavior of the children in group 1 was gone. They only helped , when there was a reward.

Similar experiments showed the same results. The message is unequivocal: a person, who is conditioned to do things in exchange for a material reward, has trouble doing the same things, when there is no reward in prospect.

It is clear that (altruistic) cooperation and material reward is not a natural relation, hard wired in our brain. 

Instead we are thus conditioned in our childhood, that this connexion is imprinted in our brain. If the connexion is there, it becomes an automatic reflex.

In other words: we are not egoists by nature, but by nurture. This leads to other conclusions, because our whole economic system is based on exchange of goods and rewards.

There is no other conclusion possible then to say that money changes our natural attitudes and thus also society.

Georg Simmel (1858 - 1918), a German sociologist, wrote "Philosophy des Geldes" (1900) [The Philosophy of Money]. His question was, what influence has money on us and our culture.

He wanted to understand the cultural and moral changes caused by the influence of money. A field of research now inhabited by behavioral economists.

While before,says Simmel, social differences, guilds, religion, traditions and the like determined the rules of the game, now (i.e. 1900) rules the calculating rationality of money. 

The quality of life is measured in money. The value which things have for us, we do no longer describe it in the use they have for us, but is expressed by its price, the bigger car, the expensive watch.

Like a juvenile criminal said: "I got addicted to money. It is like drugs. When you can earn (.ie. by stealing and street robbery hB.)  money so easily, it feels good. You want to do it again and again and again, until you can't live without it anymore."

The most stunning example of how money destroys morality was in the Dutch TV News last week.

There is some new product on the market: the e-shisha stick. Tastes like candy, but you "smoke" it like a cigaret. 

The issue was increasingly that it was popular among young children (10 - 13) and that it could contain carcinogenic substances.

Then you get the next interview with the representative of the wholesales company which distributes the product.

Interviewer: "Do you know what substances are in it?"

Representative: " I think, that it is less harmful than cigarets, but I can not imagine that it is healthy."

Interviewer: "Then, why do you sell it?"

Representative: "Yes…well…. why do you sell liquor, why do you sell candy?"

I think you can not find a better proof that money has its own rules which seem to transcend moral standards.

Main Resources:

Richard David Precht, Die Kunst kein Egoist zu sein (2012)

The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:39] herman Bergson: Thank you...^_^

[13:39] Debbie DJ: Debbie is speechless.

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman, Great lecture!

[13:39] Debbie DJ: thank you Herman

[13:39] Debbie DJ: so - were only in it for the money?

[13:39] herman Bergson: my pleasure

[13:40] Oceane: great class, herman, thank you so much ㋡

[13:40] seekerp: thank u herman

[13:40] seekerp: now il go to religion class

[13:40] seekerp: lol

[13:40] herman Bergson: I must say that I too found it all a but disturbing....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: a really horrible example of this is the mexican drug wars, the drugs make people crazy and are dangerous stuff and also they murder each other in the masses for the money that they get from those drugs

[13:40] herman Bergson: But on the other hand also hopeful

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: as long they can make money from the drugs doesn't matter how many they kill or that gets ill bu the drugs

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: really sad story

[13:41] Debbie DJ: Lets hear the hopeful bit then?

[13:41] herman Bergson: Well....

[13:42] herman Bergson: the positive part of the story is that our inclination to cooperate and support eachother is innate....

[13:42] Debbie DJ: only until it is corrupted by money.

[13:42] herman Bergson: We "disable" it to some extend by learning to work for material rewards...

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: material stuff seems to easily change this

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: we should be more aware of the real value of a thing and not of its monetary value

[13:43] herman Bergson: In the long term it means tht we have to revise our way of living together completely....

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aaa true lizzy

[13:43] herman Bergson: the whole idea of economic growth....it is nuts....

[13:43] herman Bergson: indeed Lizzy...

[13:43] Debbie DJ: It also probably means that poor people have better ethics than paid workers?

[13:44] Debbie DJ: or at least better community spirit

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: i noticed that many people are changing their minds about values when they are getting older

[13:44] Debbie DJ: Older people worry about their children future Lizzy...

[13:45] herman Bergson: If they are not caught in the web of material rewards..but only in an economy that only produces for what is needed, you might be right Debbie

[13:45] herman Bergson: In what sense Lizzy?

[13:45] Mouse Moorlord: bye

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: not so much counting money and not do greedy anymore

[13:45] herman Bergson: oh...maybe I can give you a real example....

[13:46] Debbie DJ: I see some of that in the poorer areas of South Africa. The people are cohesive and often supportive.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Exactly.....

[13:46] herman Bergson: Even in SL....

[13:46] herman Bergson: I am a scripter.....

[13:46] seekerp: thank u all

[13:46] herman Bergson: but if you ask me to write scripts offering me 5000L , I wouldn't accept it....

[13:47] herman Bergson: my value is that it has to be fun to write the script...

[13:47] herman Bergson: Like in RL...

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: we have to confess that money has its own rules

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes, u need motivation for it indeed not just money

[13:47] Debbie DJ: Good man herman. But sl is different to rl... the money is token for a start

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: aaa

[13:47] herman Bergson: I have a nice pension..money cant motivate me to find some additional work and income

[13:48] herman Bergson: Ok it is nice a few extra bucks now and then....

[13:48] Debbie DJ: sl is almost a nirvanah... we all come in here to play, like interactive television...

[13:49] herman Bergson: But in Rl it has to come from winning the lottery...not from having a job again ^_^

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: true ㋡

[13:49] Debbie DJ: It is the stuff of "self actualisation"

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: would you have acted similar 25 years ago herman?

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes it is interactive TV Debbie....

[13:49] herman Bergson: Good question Lizzy.....and that was your point too

[13:49] herman Bergson: The older you get values change...

[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: its probably a question of maturity

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yet I never have looked for new jobs then to get a better salary....I was content with being what I loved to be..a teacher

[13:51] herman Bergson: The pay was sufficient...

[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: did you work in free economy?

[13:52] herman Bergson: Never had the ambition to become a head of a department or even a whole Academy....:-)

[13:52] herman Bergson: what do you mean Lizzy?

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: if you worked as an official?

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: or in economy

[13:53] herman Bergson: It is the Netherlands...so...:-) nice place to be

[13:54] herman Bergson: ahh...I don't know the tech words for it...in US it is tenure..I believe...

[13:54] herman Bergson: I was an employe of a university....with a contract

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: yes may be

[13:54] herman Bergson: contract for indefinite time

[13:55] Debbie DJ: Nice job herman ;)

[13:55] Debbie DJ: Makes you more altruistic...

[13:55] herman Bergson: Yes it really was Debbie...

[13:55] herman Bergson: Never motivated by the money, but by my students....:-)

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: thats the way to go ㋡

[13:56] herman Bergson: That you have a job and get paid you take for granted....It is the system

[13:57] Debbie DJ: I always worked for corporates - way different.

[13:57] herman Bergson: But what shocked me today was to learn what material reward can do to our true human nature

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: yes herman

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:57] Debbie DJ: Yes. The experiment with the 3 groups of babies... is there a video link?

[13:58] herman Bergson: so ..in other words....there is a real flaw in our economic system.....

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: seems so

[13:58] Debbie DJ: Well, there sure is. And its driving us to over consumption.

[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: but we also know that children are extreme egoists too

[13:59] herman Bergson: I found the video by a search on Felix Warneken

[13:59] herman Bergson: maybe Michael Tomasello may bring you other stuff

[14:00] herman Bergson: they were researchers of the Max Planck Institute

[14:01] herman Bergson: Not by nature is seems Lizzy

[14:01] Oceane: sorry folks I have to leave now, please take care everybody

[14:01] herman Bergson: thnx for coming Oceane

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: bye Oceane

[14:02] Debbie DJ: Aha - found a group of videos...

[14:02] herman Bergson: yes Debbie....

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: oki ㋡

[14:02] Lizzy Pleides: they have a development until they are adult of course, thereÄs no contradiction

[14:02] herman Bergson: But take all pieces of the puzzle together so far.....

[14:02] Debbie DJ: cool. I like watching the background info...

[14:02] herman Bergson: We take life for granted as it is.....

[14:02] herman Bergson: but...

[14:03] herman Bergson: there are peaceful societies on this earth...people who never go to war or use extreme violence....

[14:03] herman Bergson: then you see that material reward is maybe the worst way of motivating people....

[14:04] herman Bergson: ok....to get that all understood in this money dominated world will take a century perhaps....

[14:04] Debbie DJ: Money has changed as well since 1900 - we now print it like there is no tomorrow...

[14:05] herman Bergson: But I think ..if the homo sapiens wants to survive, he has to discover the value of these observations and adapt to them

[14:06] Debbie DJ: I dont think its going to happen in time to save about half of the population :((

[14:06] herman Bergson: Just imagine Debbie....Simmel already saw what we now experience every day....how money ruins morality...

[14:06] herman Bergson: and that was 100 years ago

[14:06] Debbie DJ: Sure he did, but he didn't change anything.

[14:07] herman Bergson: no...maybe not.....or maybe he did for he is still remembered for his words....

[14:08] Lizzy Pleides: maybe the people didn't understand him a 100 years ago

[14:08] herman Bergson: and these days more and more people begin to understand the absurdity of our economic system with its infinite growth dogma

[14:08] Debbie DJ: Unless you are a very rich person... then you get to make your own riles.

[14:09] herman Bergson: No Lizzy...for it was a period of great scientific and industrial growth...

[14:09] Debbie DJ: and you don't see the absurdity , just the mansion, and car.

[14:09] herman Bergson: yes Debbie...there is indeed one obstacle....

[14:10] herman Bergson: it is the rich people who are in control at the moment....

[14:10] herman Bergson: and like the juvenile criminal....

[14:10] herman Bergson: ...more more more became the drive

[14:10] Lizzy Pleides: was it different in the middle ages?

[14:10] Debbie DJ: and the rich people own the guns and means of oppression

[14:10] Bejiita Imako: money = power and also your personal value

[14:10] Bejiita Imako: thats crazy

[14:11] herman Bergson: I think it was Lizzy...

[14:11] Debbie DJ: I agree it was Herman.

[14:11] herman Bergson: Tho you were rich you still had to obey the rules of religion and tradition...

[14:11] herman Bergson: not the money rules....

[14:12] Debbie DJ: and the virus didn't stop at the castle gates...

[14:12] Lizzy Pleides: but there were serfs and slaves

[14:12] herman Bergson: But the fact that you represented the authority of god on this earth defined your power

[14:12] Lizzy Pleides: and people like Medici and Fuggers

[14:12] herman Bergson: Now it is the amount of money you control what defines your power

[14:12] Debbie DJ: Another trick played by the rich on the poor

[14:13] Debbie DJ: religion that is

[14:13] herman Bergson: true Debbie....

[14:13] Debbie DJ: Debbie rubs her temples, and shrugs off the negative mood....

[14:14] herman Bergson: religion has always been a means of controlling the masses

[14:14] Bejiita Imako: yes

[14:14] Debbie DJ: and now, it is all done by money.

[14:14] herman Bergson: I still feel positive Debbie :-)

[14:14] herman Bergson: but we wont live to see it....

[14:14] herman Bergson: it is a matter of centuries

[14:15] herman Bergson: like evolution is

[14:16] herman Bergson: Just realize that I am not the only person on this globe with these ideas and thaoughts...

[14:16] Debbie DJ: Im also optimistic for the survival of the planet, and some humans...

[14:16] herman Bergson: on the contrary...:-)

[14:16] herman Bergson: I just steal whatever I like and tell it you all :-)

[14:16] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[14:16] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[14:16] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[14:16] Debbie DJ: thats a big confession ;)

[14:16] Debbie DJ: and you had me fooled....

[14:17] herman Bergson: No Debbie...there is one important personal addition....

[14:17] Debbie DJ: Will you edit that out before you blog it?

[14:17] herman Bergson: I may steal..ok....

[14:17] herman Bergson: but it is ME and MY MIND that chooses WHAT to steal :-)

[14:18] herman Bergson: not a word Debbie ^_^

[14:18] Debbie DJ: :)))) - Yes. and I do enjoy your mind....

[14:18] Debbie DJ: You cheer me up

[14:18] herman Bergson: I already got a mail from some Dwight Adams....

[14:18] herman Bergson: He said...

[14:19] herman Bergson: he....I was reading your lecture on Lady Cockburn and noticed that line so and so were literally copied from the Stanford Encyclopedia ^_^

[14:19] herman Bergson: while you didn't refer to that source...!!!

[14:19] Lizzy Pleides: ohh

[14:20] herman Bergson: He caught me in the act !!!!!

[14:20] Debbie DJ: oops. There is software to spot plagiarism at school these days...

[14:20] Lizzy Pleides: was he angry?

[14:20] herman Bergson: Well his job was to do so at some university in the US ..lol

[14:21] herman Bergson: no he was nice...appreciated my philosophical efforts....

[14:21] herman Bergson: He just said…mention your sources...academic decency...

[14:21] herman Bergson: and he was right on that

[14:21] Debbie DJ: Thats ok then - he was just showing off his new ability..

[14:21] Lizzy Pleides: we had some politicians in Germany with plagiats in their graduations

[14:21]  herman Bergson grins

[14:21] Debbie DJ: Ok friends, I must dash...

[14:22] herman Bergson: maybe it was that :-)

[14:22] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:22] Lizzy Pleides: yes me too Debbie

[14:22] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[14:22] Bejiita Imako: wow time flies

[14:22] herman Bergson: no he wasn't….

[14:22] Debbie DJ: Lovely lecture tonight... and see you all on thursday?

[14:22] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[14:23] Bejiita Imako: cu next time

[14:23] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:23] herman Bergson: He probably made a study of Lady Cockburn...if I spell her name right....and ran into my lecture of 2009

[14:23] Debbie DJ: byeeeee Herman, Bejita, Lizzy

[14:23] Lizzy Pleides: good night Herman, byee all

[14:23] herman Bergson: Bye Debbie...

[14:23] Debbie DJ: aaah ok ;)

[14:23] Bejiita Imako: night all

472: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 37

Niklas Luhmann (1927 – 1998) was a German sociologist, and a prominent thinker in sociological systems theory. 

He has shown why our social systems work the way they work. Instead of a "holistic" society, we always have  only perspectives on society 

and instead of a "holistic" morality we only have perspectives on morality. This is exactly what distinguishes a modern functionally differentiated society of a total system, such as the Christian Middle Ages. 

Today, however, there is not even a separate subsystem called "morality" in society, according to Luhmann.

Morality can be a social weapon by discrediting someone morally . Or is it a personal thing, a psychological point of view.  But for the functioning of the economy, politics, law and so on morality is completely irrelevant.

Just think of the situation that you have personal moral problems with what your boss demands of you. 

When you quit your job, everybody knows that there are ten others willing to take over and do what is asked with the justification "it is part of the job".

The liability of an economic system is established by the rules of ownership, exchange, or money, but not by a morality whatsoever, teaches the sociologist. 

Whether my doctor, my teacher or my bank advisor are "good" people, does not matter for their roles. 

Whether in the system of justice, the economy, education, health or the arts, nobody is better paid, because he is a good person. 

Luhmann even goes so far as to say that the task of moral philosophy is to warn "against morality". The more we demand morality in our society, 

all the more unacceptable interference will occur; and the more the functioning of the systems would be disrupted.

An extreme view, but today we are quite willing to believe in this system theoretical approach of society, which seems paradoxically contrary to our increased individualism.

Something is wrong here, don't you think so? We all want to think of our selves, that we are good and moral people, but it seems that we have all kinds of tricks to hide our weak moments.

Yet we seem to live in systems in which we are just little cogs, where the system is not interested in our personal moral sentiments.

And we save our souls by thinking that we only play a role in the different systems, politics, work, friends, family.

You may regard society as a collection of systems, but these abstract systems are themselves collections of concrete systems, of individual moral beings.

And when you realize that, you understand how necessary it is to be well aware of that in every "role" you play.

As Luhmann suggested: The more we demand morality in our society, all the more unacceptable interference; and the more the functioning of the systems would be disrupted.

"the more UNACCEPTABLE" interference" ??? On the contrary, I would say!. Like we saw in the debates about bonuses for malpracticing bankers and managers,

I think exactly that we must dot: disrupt all the systems by moral debates, like the Chinese president Xi Jinping started a national campaign against corruption and self-enrichment.

And according to an article in my newspaper today it works! And it even has reached Youtube. 

A local party boss was fired because he had organized a very costly diner with exclusive dishes for comrade bosses and investors. Who is paying the bills here ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMG6pZTFyUE

The Discussion

[13:20] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:20] Gemma Allen: interesting

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:20] Gemma Allen: there are so many examples of that

[13:21] Gemma Allen: personal morality in conflict

[13:21] herman Bergson: Corruption is one of the biggest problems in this world....

[13:21] Gemma Allen: with the business

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: yes and thats a huge problem

[13:21] Debbie DJ: so while we are little cogs, we need to conform to the machine...

[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma, but the individual is often pushed aside, because this is how the system whichever works

[13:22] Gemma Allen: right

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: as long they make money they dont care how much they pollute or how many dies in the process it seems , At least not if the alternatives reduce the yield for them

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: awful

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: that kind of thinking have to stop

[13:22] herman Bergson: There you have it Bejiita....you talk about "THEY"

[13:23] Debbie DJ: Large corporations can do anything, including kill people so long as they make a profit.... My quote...

[13:23] herman Bergson: But these "THEY" are moral human beings just like we are

[13:23] Gemma Allen: well

[13:23] abstrusia: the problem starts with everyone of us

[13:23] Gemma Allen: it depends on how they look at the issues of money

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes abstrusia....

[13:24] herman Bergson: and our tendency to conform to the group

[13:24] Debbie DJ: The problem is us ;) we are not separate from the world...

[13:24] Gemma Allen: this was one of the reasons that unions were developed in the first place

[13:24] abstrusia: did everyone of you pay taxes for your scrubwoman?

[13:24] Ciska Riverstone: the problem starts with juristic persons as they do not have any kind of morality

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: yes but it seems that wen they are behind those shields that are their company and are the big bosses there they loose all perspective of morality, The same analogy sort of like when u are in the car u get more aggressive ( road rage) then when u are out walking around people

[13:24] Gemma Allen: to help the workers overcome the lack of morality of the business owners

[13:25] herman Bergson: yes...and this is how revolutions initially stat....as a conflict of values between different groeups or systems

[13:25] Gemma Allen: regarding fair wages

[13:25] Gemma Allen: fair hours

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:25] herman Bergson: It seems to me that the basic cause of all this is the economic system....

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: those are important things indeed

[13:26] herman Bergson: one the one hand....complete collectivism failed....

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Remember too that the corporate bosses have their own support group of peers, that provide a consistent "moral" framework...

[13:26] herman Bergson: on the other hand capitalism failed too...

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie.....that is where Luhmann was right....

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:27] herman Bergson: morality from a certain perspective only exists...

[13:27] Gemma Allen: i was reading in the new york times about your countryman who produced studies of the human brain that were not true at all

[13:27] Gemma Allen: forgot his name

[13:27] herman Bergson: Stapel?

[13:27] Gemma Allen: yes

[13:27] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:27] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:27] herman Bergson: Was not about the brain....

[13:27] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:27] herman Bergson: he is social psychological researcher

[13:28] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:28] herman Bergson: was a psychologist

[13:28] herman Bergson: a disaster this man....

[13:28] Gemma Allen: i guess all his morality was justified by his mind

[13:28] herman Bergson: we also have a cultural antropologist for you who did the same on an equal scale :-)

[13:28] Gemma Allen: oh swell

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes, but now he is crying crocodile tears.....this Stapel fellow :-)

[13:29] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:29] herman Bergson: admitting that he did something wrong

[13:29] herman Bergson: Big article with photo in y newspaer last weekend...

[13:30] herman Bergson: I didnt take the trouble to read it....:-))

[13:30] Gemma Allen: probably teh same as was in the nY times

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:30] herman Bergson: But regarding the level of moral evolution we still have a lonfg way to go

[13:31] herman Bergson: Our brain is a tricky machine and certainly not in balance regarding all functions

[13:31] seekerp: i have a question, we r basing our morality on what?

[13:31] seekerp: God, biology ?

[13:31] seekerp: fear of death?

[13:32] herman Bergson: like for instance we are good in rationalizing our moral errors

[13:32] Debbie DJ: group acceptance!

[13:32] seekerp: meaning?

[13:32] herman Bergson: good question Seekerp..yes

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:33] herman Bergson: in fact at least in my opinion it is based on social behavior as has evolved in groups

[13:33] herman Bergson: so based on biology

[13:33] abstrusia: i think morality is the behaving to other individuals

[13:33] seekerp: has evolved from what to what and why?

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes it is abstrusia....

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: If you are in a group u get biased by their moral values even if they might not be right

[13:33] herman Bergson: morality is always defined in relation to the other

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: respect to another group or more in general

[13:34] Debbie DJ: Evolves continuously, as an interaction between the group norms and personal growth

[13:34] seekerp: so bees have morality too?

[13:34] herman Bergson: when you are alone on an island there hardly can be morality

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: bees only follow instinct

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: i think so

[13:34] seekerp: and we don't?

[13:34] herman Bergson: no Seekerp.....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: we do but we also can make own desicions that are not hard coded into the brain from start

[13:34] herman Bergson: only organisms who can differentiate between good and evil have to make moral choices

[13:35] seekerp: thats is the key herman

[13:35] herman Bergson: Like Frans de Waal has demonstrated....

[13:35] Debbie DJ: words....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: on thew other hand those have a base in instinct too i guess

[13:35] seekerp: i don't think there is good and evil

[13:35] herman Bergson: some monkeys, bonobos, have a real sense of unfainess

[13:35] abstrusia: and who use his personal moral choice?

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: very tricky how this works I think

[13:35] Debbie DJ: failing... bees don't know good or bad?

[13:35] seekerp: but of course try explaining that to regular people

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:36] herman Bergson: ok..no good and evil....

[13:36] seekerp: in my opinion the same goes for good or bad

[13:36] herman Bergson: then use the word acceptable and unacceptable behavior in the group

[13:36] Debbie DJ: ok..

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: evil for me is to make other suffer for example and good to make others happy

[13:36] herman Bergson: for instance....

[13:36] herman Bergson: you get up walk over and just kill Beertje...

[13:36] herman Bergson: beng...

[13:37] herman Bergson: no reason...just your whim...

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: that would be 100 evil act

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: noooooo

[13:37] seekerp: too many assumptions there, what uis happiness ? and u make others happy because u r happy or ust becasue it makes u feel good

[13:37] herman Bergson: A group can nit survive with such behavior among its members...

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: i protect you Beertje

[13:37] seekerp: can we make a murderer happy?

[13:37] .: Beertje :.: pfew..thanks Lizzy

[13:37] herman Bergson: I am not talking about happiness....

[13:38] seekerp: that is morality

[13:38] herman Bergson: I am talking about the functionality of behavior in a group

[13:38] seekerp: what is the point then

[13:38] seekerp: we r moral as long as it can makes happy

[13:38] seekerp: whatever that means

[13:38] herman Bergson: the point is that your presence in the group becomes unacceptable when you like to use random violence against other members of the group

[13:38] seekerp: at least thats what we think as humans

[13:38] herman Bergson: simple as that

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats very logical

[13:39] seekerp: ok se we can say that morality is a rule?

[13:39] herman Bergson: in no socail group of mamels you see random violence...

[13:39] seekerp: dictacted by the fact that we want to live as long as possible?

[13:40] herman Bergson: it even is possible as I mentioned in another lecture to live without violence

[13:40] seekerp: but does that mean there is good or bad in the universe

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes seekerp...all organisms have a drive to live

[13:40] herman Bergson: that is plain biology

[13:40] herman Bergson: we also have like other social animals a desire to share and care for eachother...

[13:40] seekerp: i think if a person kills others for no reason the universe dont ''feels' that it was bad

[13:41] seekerp: only relative to our small brains

[13:41] herman Bergson: I am not interested in the univers...

[13:41] herman Bergson: I am interested in what the othermembers of the group think about it

[13:41] seekerp: well we r in the universe

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: the group sends you to the universe if you killme

[13:42] Debbie DJ: we are in a local vortex of the universe, our values come from our peers.

[13:42] seekerp: and to make our rules only limited to our brains is not all we can do

[13:42] Debbie DJ: ego...

[13:42] seekerp: if thats the case we wouldn't be going crazy about the central questions

[13:42] Debbie DJ: lol.

[13:43] herman Bergson: what do you mean by that seekerp?

[13:43] herman Bergson: anyway...

[13:44] seekerp: think about it we cant really think that we there were no planet earth the whole universe will disappear ( and with it the laws and even evolution as u guys said)

[13:44] Debbie DJ: Debbie thinks seekerp must attent lectures more often ;))))

[13:44] herman Bergson: I think that contrary to what a general oppinion seems to be in certain groups/systems....we HAVE to emphasize personal morality....

[[13:45] herman Bergson: and not as a personal issue only.....

[13:45] seekerp: sure but the confusion comes when people think there r moral rules written on stone

[13:45] Debbie DJ: agreed.

[13:45] herman Bergson: but we have to question the morality of the systems we are in too....

[13:46] seekerp: religion and political belief

[13:46] seekerp: sure

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] herman Bergson: They are not written in stone seekerp....:-)

[13:47] herman Bergson: the present economic crisis shows signs of such a beginning of a moral debate about the individual within the system

[13:47] seekerp: we must go guys

[13:47] seekerp: a pleasure

[13:47] herman Bergson: thank you for your participation seekerp...

[13:47] abstrusia: most people wants that personal morality starts at other persons, the politics, the bosses they should start, but wie are also part of the system

[13:47] Mouse Moorlord: thank you and bye

[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aaa cu ㋡

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes abstusia.....it is always 'the other" :-)

[13:48] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:48] herman Bergson: we are good, but the others are bad.....:-)

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:48] abstrusia: and so nobody starts

[13:49] herman Bergson: nobody will say of himself that HE is a bad person....

[13:49] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:49] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:49] Gemma Allen: oh i know a few that do

[13:49] Gemma Allen: proud of it

[13:49] herman Bergson: but easily about someone else ^_^

[13:49] abstrusia: to loose morality in some parts of the life ist not unusual today

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: many demand morality from others and are immoral themselves

[13:49] Debbie DJ: Gemma - that "Bad" means "Good"

[13:49] herman Bergson: no indeed...

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: sometimes i think politicians corporate owners ect are like kids in a sandbox throwing sand and mud on each other then pointing at each other yelling at same time " HE STARTED!"

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:50] herman Bergson: that is the problem abstrusia

[13:50] abstrusia: i often come home and say "i´m a whore"

[13:50] Debbie DJ: really?

[13:50] abstrusia: yes

[13:51] herman Bergson: that is as such not immoral I would say

[13:51] Debbie DJ: I thought i was alone in my self assessment :)

[13:51] herman Bergson: In old Rome you could have a job at the temple of Aphrodite

[13:51] herman Bergson: a decent job :-)

[13:51] abstrusia: :)

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] Debbie DJ: and these days there are good hooker jobs in the temples of sl...

[13:52] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:52] herman Bergson: Besides that, society has a very ambivalent attitude towards sexual behavior

[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed Gemma and well paid too :-))

[13:53] Debbie DJ: Sex inn itself is never immoral actually

[13:53] Gemma Allen: i did not say that

[13:53] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:53] abstrusia: no, because i know how the system is working, and my job is to help people saving taxes.)

[13:53] Gemma Allen: was deb

[13:53] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:53] herman Bergson: oops :-)

[13:53] Gemma Allen: WaaaHaHAhahAHA! AhhhhHAhahhAHhahHAH! haha!

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hahahaha

[13:53] Debbie DJ: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*ℋєєє ℋααααα ℋααααα ℋєєє ℋααααα ℋααααα*'``'*:-.,_,.-:*

[13:53] Gemma Allen: class is deteroriating

[13:53] Debbie DJ: sorry gemma... got you into trouble...

[13:54] Gemma Allen: hah

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] herman Bergson: yes.....time to thank you for your nice participation again :-)

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: aaa nice as always

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: Thanks to you Herman

[13:54] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:54] Debbie DJ: thank you Herman...

[13:54] Gemma Allen: hope to be here tuesday

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: cu soon

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Ciska Riverstone: thanks herman - enjoy everyone ㋡

[13:54] Debbie DJ: see you next week... debbie rushes off slowly...

[13:54] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman:)

[13:54] Gemma Allen: summer is coming fast now

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hugs all

[13:54] Gemma Allen: summer break

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: welterusten Beertje ;)

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] .: Beertje :.: lacht..dankjewel Ciska

[13:55] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: ㋡

[13:55] Debbie DJ: byeeee

[13:55] .: Beertje :.: welterusten allemaal

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: good night everybody

[13:55] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje ^_^

[13:55] abstrusia: good night:)

[13:55] .: Beertje :.: bye:)

[14:06] VISTA ANIMATIONS CASUAL 2 MALE AO V09: 12% memory free (2030 Byte).

[14:07] WAINSCOT reports: Lizzy Pleides is on your land now!

[14:15] VISTA ANIMATIONS CASUAL 2 MALE AO V09: OFF