449: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 14

What interests us here is the question what is the quintessence of human nature. Do we live in a world of greedy egoists, which is a popular belief these day, 

or is the quintessence of human nature not mere self-interest, but more…a capability to go beyond self-interest?

Gradually we develop here the view, that, describing the human being as a by 100% self-interest motivated organism,  is a hard to defend position.

However, this doesn't mean that we have a clear view of the balance between self-interest and altruism in our behavior and by what principles this is controlled.

The human being is the only organism on earth, which is capable of introspection, which means being able to observe and judge itself.

The standards used to judge our behavior and actions are not innate. We have to learn them. But how? At least we can say, that there must be areas in the brain which enables us to learn moral behavior. So maybe something is innate yet.

In the introduction of his book "Empathy and Moral Development" (2000) Martin Hoffman,  emeritus professor of developmental psychology at New York University writes"

"When I tell people my interest is people's consideration for others, they perk up at first but then say something like it must be frustrating to study that because everybody is interested in themselves; who cares about anyone else, except maybe their family? 

But when I say humans could not have survived as a species if everyone cared only about himself, they pause, think about it, and then say something like "You might be right." 

The evolution argument carries weight, as though it were self-evident that hunters and gatherers had to help each other to survive, so humans must have helping genes.

In any case, it is in this end-of-millennium, first-world context of competitive individualism and little caring for others that some of us study presocial moral behavior - 

knowing full well that however much a person cares about others, when the chips are down, the individual thinks of himself first: He or she is not the other. (…)

Philosophy and religion have various answers to the dilemma between egoistic needs and social obligations, and their answers have parallels in contemporary psychological theory. 

One answer, the "doctrine of original sin," which assumes people are born egoistic and acquire a moral sense through socialization, that controls egoism, 

is paralleled in early Freudian and social learning theories that stressed the importance for moral development of reward and punishment by parents, especially giving and withholding affection . 

The diametrically opposed and more interesting "doctrine of innate purity," associated with Rousseau who viewed children as innately good (sensitive to others) but vulnerable to corruption by society, 

has a rough parallel in Piaget' s theory, not that children are innately pure but that their relation to adults produces a heteronomous respect for rules and authority which interferes with moral development. - END QUOTE -

Like Piaget (1896 - 1980)  Hoffman to developed a multi-stage development:  from imitation to empathy and then to compassion. And from the compassion to self-correction to responsibility and finally to concept of fairness.

Next lecture we'll look into this developmental process.

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you....

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are those who would say about evolution it is the survival of the fittest

[13:23] Velvet (velvet.braham): gotta read up on this Piaget guy.

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): especial among those who are self centered

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is a common mistake Gemma....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hmm survival of the fittest ive heard sometimes indeed

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know

[13:24] herman Bergson: Fittest means best adapted to the situation....

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not in their minds :_)

[13:25] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): I guess she is pointing to nature selection

[13:25] herman Bergson: and we being social animals.....we kick out the self centered individuals...

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: heheheh

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): would be a lot less people around then

[13:25] herman Bergson: That is no problem...we got plenty ^_^

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know

[13:26] herman Bergson: The basic problem we are facing here is the Nature - Nurture problem

[13:26] Mick Nerido: they end up in jail or dead

[13:26] herman Bergson: Or basically the question....

[13:26] herman Bergson: is a human being born with a moral sense

[13:27] herman Bergson: and if so..in what way....

[13:27] herman Bergson: Hoffman emphasizes EMPATHY....

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well, we all hate loneliness.

[13:27] herman Bergson: that is a basic natural feature of the human being....

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): so maybe the first requirement is friendship... and then loyalty and morals

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes something alone those lines Debbie

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think empathy is a basic thing.

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: I hate be alone, nice i have so many friends around me

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): intrinsic.

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Velvet....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: thats a basic drive for me for sure

[13:28] herman Bergson: The most funny thing are a bunch of babies....say 9 months old...

[13:29] herman Bergson: when one begins to cry....all take over

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): lol. That is so true.

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:29] Catt (catt.gable): misery loves company

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): same with laughter

[13:29] herman Bergson: But this is regarded as a first sign of empathy....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: yes that's true

[13:29] Mick Nerido: like yawning imitation?

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its like the boys in the pub watching football - one gets drunk antd they all take over ;)

[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hahahahahah

[13:30] herman Bergson: Oh there is more to observe here among adults

[13:30] Fred123 Aiten: lol

[13:30] herman Bergson: Just keep a close eye on it...

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): when I interact with people who do not show empathy, I figure something is broken in them.

[13:30] herman Bergson: and you'll see that people will imitate each others gestures...

[13:31] herman Bergson: a couple talking....

[13:31] Catt (catt.gable): mirror

[13:31] herman Bergson: he touches his face....

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): some of this reminds me of 'herd instincts'

[13:31] herman Bergson: the other does the same

[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): And yawning is a good example - it is an empathetic gesture...

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): and herd instincts are followed by lower animals

[13:32] Mick Nerido: Fans in sporting events...

[13:32] herman Bergson: That is even more basic Merlin....

[13:32] herman Bergson: A panic in a stadion

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes Herman, perhaps because it is instinct not logical

[13:32] herman Bergson: There is no logic there, believe me :-)

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: rather chaos

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Shoals of fish are interesting too....

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): and mass flocks of birds

[13:33] herman Bergson: ok...so we are born with a certain capability....

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: and often unfortunately with tragic results

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: like recently new years over 60 people trampled to death due to panic

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: dont remember where

[13:34] herman Bergson: Now we have to figure out how that capability...the capability of empathy can lead to moral standards....

[13:34] herman Bergson: That still is a long way to go.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: But to give you an indication.....

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): It involves feedback ;)

[13:35] herman Bergson: an experiment with kids between 6 and 8....

[13:35] herman Bergson: they got a bunch of candy.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: and the instruction that they could ...it would eb nice to.....share it with another kid, they didn't know...

[13:36] herman Bergson: But that other kid was not present in the room....only a photo....

[13:36] herman Bergson: what happened was amazing....

[13:37] herman Bergson: Half of the kids split their stack of candies in two....half half

[13:37] herman Bergson: This leads to the fairness principle...

[13:37] herman Bergson: There was a same experiment with adults....

[13:38] herman Bergson: one person got 50 dollars....

[13:38] herman Bergson: He had to share it with someone else...

[13:38] herman Bergson: he was allowed to make only one offer to the other person....

[13:38] herman Bergson: If the other person would decline the offer the first person had to return the 50 dollars...

[13:39] herman Bergson: it is called the Ultimatum experiment...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39] herman Bergson: result....

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: share or get nothing at all i guess

[13:39] herman Bergson: the majority split the money 25 - 25....half half

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): good experiment - expected result.

[13:40] herman Bergson: that is what you say so easily Debbie

[13:40] herman Bergson: Expected result

[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): that makes my heart feel good

[13:40] herman Bergson: yes ...I would say so too....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah ㋡

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Velvet..I had the same experience about this

[13:41] herman Bergson: These are interesting things about the species homo sapiens...:-)

[13:41] Catt (catt.gable): why the ultimatum? did they think the subjects would not try as hard to share without that incentive?

[13:41] herman Bergson: But there is something other interesting thing....

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): Catt, I think the subjects were forced to "bet" on how empathetic others were.

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): did those people get the money from someone else to experience..or..did they use their own money?

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes catt has a point. what if the experiment were repeated without the threst?

[13:42] herman Bergson: No Catt ...was just the title of the experiment...because any offer to split was in fact an ultimatum for the other...take it or leave it

[13:43] herman Bergson: We'll get back to this experimant...because there have been tested variations too

[13:43] Catt (catt.gable): I thought I understood you to say the subjects couldn't keep the 50 if turned down by the other. Maybe I misunderstood you

[13:43] Catt (catt.gable): ok

[13:43] herman Bergson: But in the literature it is named the Ultimatum experiment...

[13:44] herman Bergson: One thing I still want to tell you....

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): .

[13:44] herman Bergson: the Chimp has always been regarded as THE closest relative to the human...

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well..They discovered another ape..the Bonobo....

[13:45] herman Bergson: as smart and social as the chimp...

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): There are some down the road from me - in a primate reserve.

[13:45] herman Bergson: That Bonobo is even more social and non aggressive...

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): they look quite human...

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes Debbie, me too

[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): or about 80 miles away anyway

[13:46] herman Bergson: chimps are very aggressive agiants apes from outside their group...

[13:46] herman Bergson: even go at war against another group and kill

[13:46] Catt (catt.gable): and as they age, apparently

[13:46] herman Bergson: Bonobos dont...

[13:46] herman Bergson: We'll get to that later, but the funny thing is...

[13:47] herman Bergson: you get the impression  that we are a mix of chimp and bonobo in our behavior :-)

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and some have a tiny bit of Neandertaler in them...

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: some are chimps and some are bonoboos

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well good for a next lecture...

[13:48] herman Bergson: Class dismissed and thank you all

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: speaking of sharing

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: here u go herman ㋡

[13:48] herman Bergson: My apologies for the rough reception Afro....

[[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks Herman....

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): that was a great lecture.

[13:48] Mick Nerido: thanks!

[13:48] Catt (catt.gable): TY Herman

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): always

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: this was really interesting

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you, Herman!

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: this we have to investigate further for sure ㋡

[13:49] herman Bergson: But you are always welcome fro, but you'd better be in time next time :-)

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): btw - there is a lovely subject in New Scientist this week herman

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): the Hologenome theory of evolution...

[13:50] herman Bergson: ok Debbie?!

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=hologenome&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hologenome_theory_of_evolution&ei=FjfvUIeaMIKShgeb3oCgDQ&usg=AFQjCNHuAkEuBfcNUt3b_NnP5iQOHvdHNw&bvm=bv.1357700187,d.ZG4

[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: Good night Herman, good night everybody!

[13:50] herman Bergson: ohhh!!!

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): heres a wikipedia link

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lizzy

[13:50] herman Bergson: THNX!

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all ㋡

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): qwarkk is afk

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hhehehe

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): will sit here till he gets back

[13:50] herman Bergson: poor Qwark...

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): and on that note - night friends....

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I will look that up too Debbie

[13:51] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): Herman my RL roommate is philosopher, one day we were talking about one philosopher who had questioned do we exist in real?

[13:51] Catt (catt.gable): regarding the 50 dollar share test, would be interested in what the variations were sometime.

[13:51] herman Bergson: in fact that is a silly question.....

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): Afroze, I know you are a figment of my imagination ;)

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye everyone

[13:52] Velvet (velvet.braham): me too, Catt

[13:52] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): Debbie that philosopher made a theory out of to explain we do exist

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): me too catt

[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Afroze this is a silly question and let me tell you why

[13:52] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): sure

[13:53] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): sorry i dunno much of philosophy so i asked

[13:53] herman Bergson: When someone asks ARE WE REAL he must already have the knowledge of the difference between real and unreal

[13:53] herman Bergson: But IF he has that knowledge....where did he get it from???

[13:53] Velvet (velvet.braham): ooooooo

[13:54] herman Bergson: So it is a silly question because it begs the question :-)

[13:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): Maybe we all exist in a giant computer simulation ?

[13:54] herman Bergson: Even Descartes ran into a wall....

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: Matrix

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:54] Velvet (velvet.braham): the matrix

[13:54] Velvet (velvet.braham): lol

[13:54] Catt (catt.gable): haha Bejiita, was thinking same

[13:54] herman Bergson: He even didn't ask ..are we real...

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: at least i love those films

[13:54] herman Bergson: He just asked...AM I???

[13:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think therefore I am.

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:55] herman Bergson: which was in a way pretty stupid because you only can ask that when you ARE :-)

[13:55] Catt (catt.gable): lol

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:56] herman Bergson: ANd thus he believed he had found the golden egg of philosophy....I AM...whhooo hooo:-)

[13:56] Catt (catt.gable): I think the point isn't that it is or is not a silly question, but rather to pose it in order to arrive at something else...a sort of base position

[13:56] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): thanks for that Herman

[13:57] herman Bergson: The question is silly in the sense that is already presupposes the answer which makes asking the question meaningful

[13:57] herman Bergson: I mean

[13:57] herman Bergson: before asking about the unreal you also have to know the real

[13:57] Catt (catt.gable): I think the person posing it knew that but wanted to introduce the subject on the way to exploring existence

[13:58] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have to go..thanks Herman..

[13:58] Catt (catt.gable): just another view

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: cu Beertje

[13:58] herman Bergson: Bye Beertje :-)

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): well, a lot of self - philosophy starts with trying to decipher the deeper meaning of words... and dealing with imprecision...

[13:59] herman Bergson: or even by asking how words get their meaning, Debbie

[13:59] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes indeed Herman.

[13:59] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): science is pretty striaght forward…how would you define philosophy...I never understood that...

[13:59] Debbie Dee (framdor): philosophy is the science of thinking about who we are....

[14:00] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[14:00] herman Bergson: The problem, Afroze, is here the use of a word....

[14:00] herman Bergson: first of all philosophy sois no science....

[14:00] herman Bergson: science is defined as certain knowledge

[14:01] herman Bergson: Like Bertrand Russell said....

[14:01] herman Bergson: as soon as you have a clear and definite answer to a question which was regarded as philosophical....the subject moves over to science

[14:01] Velvet (velvet.braham): indeed!

[14:02] herman Bergson: For instance dualism.....

[14:02] herman Bergson: is there a mind and a body....as two independent separately exisiting entities in this world

[14:02] Debbie Dee (framdor): Science is not certain knowledge - it is a method used to seek knowledge...

[14:03] Velvet (velvet.braham): well, that's science as a philosophy! :)

[14:03] herman Bergson: in 1650 till 1950...roughly....the answer was a philosophical answer

[14:03] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): Debbie best way to define science is nature and its rules

[14:03] herman Bergson: Well Debbie...I cant agree with that....

[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): Me, I do science ;)

[14:04] herman Bergson: Then I would say....pragmatically...

[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): what don't you agree with herman?

[14:04] herman Bergson: science is theories about reality that work

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: true

[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes - but they are all arrived at using scientific method....

[14:04] Catt (catt.gable): as far as they have gotten at at any given time

[14:04] Velvet (velvet.braham): I was a math major in college

[14:05] Velvet (velvet.braham): and I took a philosophy class

[14:05] Velvet (velvet.braham): the professor like to put me on the spot

[14:05] Velvet (velvet.braham): for entertainment value

[14:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): ie - hypothesis - experiment - new hypothesis.

[14:05] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): Debbie u are defining instruments but not science

[14:05] herman Bergson: yes Debbie..but any hypothesis is based on knowledge of facts

[14:05] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): i agree with herman definition

[14:05] Catt (catt.gable): new discovery new hypothesis new experiment newer hypothesis

[14:06] Debbie Dee (framdor): and scientists all know we may have to change hypotheses if new facts emerge

[14:06] Catt (catt.gable): yes

[14:06] herman Bergson: yes...but that is not what applies to philosophy....

[14:06] herman Bergson: Philosophy is not a science in that sense

[14:07] herman Bergson: far from that even....I would say

[14:07] Debbie Dee (framdor): I agree.

[14:07] herman Bergson: Philosophy is what comes before science

[14:07] Velvet (velvet.braham): deductive reasoning

[14:08] herman Bergson: you use that in philosophy too Velvet....

[14:08] herman Bergson: even more so...philosophy developed the methods of logic

[14:08] Debbie Dee (framdor): Science is not certain knowledge - it is a method used to seek knowledge... - I only disagreed with your statement on science

[14:08] herman Bergson: So before science comes LOGIC...

[14:08] Debbie Dee (framdor): sure

[14:08] Velvet (velvet.braham): yes

[14:08] Bejiita Imako: yes

[14:08] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): true

[14:09] Bejiita Imako: sounds right to e

[14:09] Bejiita Imako: me

[14:09] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:09] herman Bergson: Not certain in an absolute sense Debbie...

[14:09] herman Bergson: in a pragmatic sense...it works...

[14:09] Debbie Dee (framdor): see - this is philosophy ;)

[14:09] Velvet (velvet.braham): :)

[14:09] herman Bergson: this pill with stuff this or that cures me...

[14:09] Debbie Dee (framdor): we deduce things from other things...

[14:09] Debbie Dee (framdor): and argue a lot ;))))

[14:09] herman Bergson: is that the best pill?

[14:10] herman Bergson: The best pill there is at the moment :-)

[14:10] Debbie Dee (framdor): Once you use scientific method and experiments in philosophy, it must be science.

[14:11] herman Bergson: A pretty odd statement Debbie :-)

[14:11] herman Bergson: It was philosophy that developed the scientific method....

[14:11] Catt (catt.gable): nods

[14:11] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): true

[14:11] herman Bergson: Think of Popper for instance

[14:11] herman Bergson: he showed that induction only leads to larger probability....

[14:12] herman Bergson: never to absolute certainty

[14:12] herman Bergson: so don't go and look for another white swan....

[14:12] Debbie Dee (framdor): ok ;)

[14:12] herman Bergson: put your energy in finding a black one!

[14:12] Catt (catt.gable): smiles

[14:12] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:13] Debbie Dee (framdor): anyway... I really must be going... thanks for a great evening...

[14:13] herman Bergson: Then you know absolutely certain that the statement "All swans are white" is 100&% FALSE

[14:13] Catt (catt.gable): haha

[14:13] Debbie Dee (framdor): good induction advice.

[14:13] Bejiita Imako: heheh

[14:13] Velvet (velvet.braham): this is why I look forward to this class

[14:13] Velvet (velvet.braham): thanks, everyone

[14:13] Debbie Dee (framdor): till tuesday... byeeee

[14:13] herman Bergson: My pleasure Velvet

[14:13] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:13] Bejiita Imako: cu then

[14:14] herman Bergson: Be Debbie

[14:14] Catt (catt.gable): Thanks again, herman ㋡

[14:14] Catt (catt.gable): I better push along too

[14:14] Bejiita Imako: bye all

[14:14] Catt (catt.gable): bye Bej

[14:14] Catt (catt.gable): Afroze, glad you could make it ㋡

[14:15] Catt (catt.gable): bye all ㋡

[14:15] herman Bergson: Bye CAtt

[14:15] herman Bergson: Again...sorry for the rough entrance Afroze

[14:15] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): it was nice class Herman

[14:15] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): its ok Herman

[14:15] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): I liked it very much

[14:15] herman Bergson: well thank you...

[14:16] herman Bergson: You are always welcome

[14:16] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): i'll attend next class

[14:16] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): thnks for having me

[14:16] αƒɾøʐε (afroze4all): have good day/night

[14:16] herman Bergson: You too :-)

448: The Art Not to be an Egoist 13

This is lecture 13 in 2013 of our Project "The Art of Not to be an Egoist". So Welcome in 2013 together with me and I'll promise to do my best for you to make is a fruitful philosophical year.

That I take you to the heart of the contemporary questions and debates in philosophy is again proven by a short interview in my newspaper this morning.

It is about everything that is the hot issue here since my lecture 266 "The Mystery of the Brain introduced" in September 2010. Now check this out…….

Researchers at the Free University of Amsterdam (protestant roots) go study the frontiers of science. Initiator professor René van Woudenberg (55) denounces the idea that science is the only way to acquire knowledge. 

For organizing debates and attract researchers the Professor of Philosophy receives 2.4 million of the Templeton World Charity Foundation. This foundation means that there should be room for spirituality in science.

When you check Wikipedia on this Foundation you find, among other things this:

Broadly, controversial aspects of the Templeton Foundation fall into three categories.

1.The Foundation is seen by some as having a conservative bias.

2. The Foundation receives criticism from some members in the scientific community who are concerned with its linking of scientific and religious questions.

3. The Foundation stands accused of using its financial clout to encourage researchers and reporters to produce material favorable to its position linking religion to science etc.

Now the interview…..

QUESTION: You think that many scientists to interfere in areas where they have no knowledge of, such as philosophy and religion. Can you give an example?

ANSWER: "Take the book of brain scientists as Dick Swaab and Victor Lamme. Both conclude on the basis of experiments that free will does not exist.

In one such experiment, by Benjamin Libet, a subject gets electrodes on his head and he must move his finger at a chosen time. 

The researchers note that  brain activity was  there already before the subject indicated that he was aware that he wanted to move his finger.

Ergo: the free will does not exist. This conclusion goes too far. The subject was asked to move his finger any moment within the next minute. 

That instruction was already stored in his brains, so it's a bad experiment to test free wil. "

QUESTION: According to some evolutionary psychologists morality is an illusion generated by our genes. What we find good and bad, would depend entirely on what is important to the survival of the species.

ANSWER: "That I dare to doubt. That we disapprove of murder and theft, has survival benefits for survival of the group. 

But when I lived in America, I read as a newspaper article about a fertility doctor. The man had women with fertility problems secretly inseminated with his own sperm. 

Evolutionary you would say he is happy, happy women, what's the problem? Yet everyone feels that this is  reprehensible behavior. 

That moral judgment is beyond evolutionary psychology  and there is more wisdom to get for example the philosophy or religion here. "

QUESTION: Now the word religion is dropped: are you religious?

ANSWER: "I try to live according to the teachings of Jesus Christ."

QUESTION: That does not answer the question.

ANSWER: "Yes, I believe in God."

QUESTION: How do you know that God exists?

ANSWER: "That knowledge is not of the same order as the proof that the square root of 2 is not a fracture. Yet there is reliable knowledge of non-scientific nature. 

For instance, I'm sure my name is René van Woudenberg and that every bone in my body is intact. This proves that valuable knowledge can exist without scientific research is needed. 

Maybe that knowledge of God is also an example of this.

END ANSWER

For those who have learnt about my philosophical views since lecture 001 will understand, that this last answer is 100% contrary to my philosophical views and 100% in line with the Templeton ideology.

The Discussion

[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you...

[13:29] herman Bergson: Well..we'll wait for Catt's return then :-)

[13:30] herman Bergson: AT least the interview shows that there is a kind of opposition (to my iseas)

[13:30] herman Bergson: ideas

[13:31] herman Bergson: You are allstill listening to the jingle bells?

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i need to hear more about this subject before I can give a comment I suppose

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think that the religious intervention in science is absurd.

[13:33] herman Bergson: So you take especially the last answer of this professor for granted?

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:33] herman Bergson: I mean ..that a professor in philosophy dares to say a thing like that...:-)

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): not all professors in phiosophy dare to say that..you do..

[13:34] herman Bergson: Just this single statement : "This proves that valuable knowledge can exist without scientific research is needed."

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): well you're a thinking philosopher ....

[13:35] herman Bergson: ok..then start thinking....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: that means science

[13:35] herman Bergson: he talks about VALUABLE knowledge....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: to be sure u need a proof of some sort

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: or similar

[13:35] herman Bergson: what does he mean by VALUABLE???

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): useful in some way

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): so a knowledge of a good well is useful

[13:35] herman Bergson: is there a kind of knowledge that is more valuable than scientific knowledge...

[13:36] herman Bergson: so what knowledge is it?

[13:36] herman Bergson: What is the extra value?

[13:36] herman Bergson: how do you get that knowledge

[13:36] Fred123 Aiten: how do you know its a good well

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): knowledge of self...

[13:36] herman Bergson: And valuable to what purpose?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....

[13:37] Catt entered chat range (17.65 m).

[13:37] herman Bergson: when asked for examples he came with Cartesian observations...

[13:37] herman Bergson: "I know what my name is...I know what the conditions of my bones is..."

[13:38] herman Bergson: and indeed...epistemologically there is a difference between the "I " statements and third person scientific statements...

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: thats interesting

[13:38] Fred123 Aiten: how do you know what the condition of your bones is. You can only think you know without science

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true Fred

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well Fred..that was what I was thinking too,....

[13:39] herman Bergson: only scientific investigation can show that you dont suffer of ostheoperosis...or artritis

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: u have to see it

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:40] herman Bergson: My point is that we are analyzing human nature at the moment....

[13:40] herman Bergson: we ask "What is human nature"

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: to prove it

[13:41] herman Bergson: or more popular said...Are we born egoists or are we born altruists

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: I use to say if a scientist can prove that god exists and show true information about it then i belive in god

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: not before

[13:41] herman Bergson: And to answer that question we need next to philosophical answers scientific observations

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: same with ghosts,until i see one i dont believe in them

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: and i havent seen any ghost so far what i know

[13:42] Catt (catt.gable): Ah the Doubting Thomas School of Thought, smiles

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....that would be nice....

[13:42] herman Bergson: But what would the proof of this existence of god change this world as it is...(tho it is said it is his creation)

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): But Bejita - there are so many on tv :)

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] herman Bergson: In fact...the existence of a god is completely irrelevant to how our lives develop....

[13:43] herman Bergson: unless you believe that this existence also allows a possibility of interfering with the facts of life as they are...

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): Religion determines a lot of how we develop - most wars have been over god.

[13:44] herman Bergson: That leads to a lot of questions....

[13:44] herman Bergson: No Debbie ..all wars were about dominance...and control

[13:45] herman Bergson: Yje arabic world is a perfect example...

[13:45] herman Bergson: masses are manipulated to fight for "the cause"

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes, and the church was used to mobilize the people....

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes... and god is used a lot.

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): which cause?

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: they use religion to deprive all women of their rights in saudi arabia for ex

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: really sad

[13:46] herman Bergson: In a sauce of Allah Acbar...of course...

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: and also all these wars

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): cause

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: terrible

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): chatlag....

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): but the religeons exist even though god doesn't?

[13:47] herman Bergson: no..to get back to the believe of an existing and interfering god in our world...

[13:47] herman Bergson: Would really be a big problem....

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:47] herman Bergson: He would get involved in politics :-)

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why would we go back ?

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the use?

[13:48] herman Bergson: Because this professor claims the existence of nonscientific valuable knowledge Beertje

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: also there are so many different gods but each religion only believe thant one single god exist

[13:49] herman Bergson: and the knowledge of the existence of god is one of its items

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yet no one have ever seen it

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hmm now chat lag is bad

[13:49] herman Bergson: YEs Bejiita....:-)

[13:49] herman Bergson: Who is the real god?

[13:50] Catt (catt.gable): Supposedly Moses saw God

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: yes always asked me that too

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we all are..

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): I am!

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yay.... I've been saved ;)

[13:51] herman Bergson: A lot have seen god Catt...at least that is what they say

[13:51] Catt (catt.gable): Supposedly Moses saw God or parts of him which turned his hair white etc.

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my hair turns white of my puber children...

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): god exists in our minds.

[13:51] Catt (catt.gable): well, his is significant in that it happened while he was receiving the 10 commandments which have impacted much of the world.

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:51] herman Bergson: My hair turned white years ago....

[13:52] Catt (catt.gable): lag

[13:53] herman Bergson: But the ten commandments aren't unique for the Jewish belief....you find them in all kinds of ways in many cultures

[13:53] Catt (catt.gable): Universal truth is not unique

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: middle east have islam, India Hinduism ect

[13:53] Catt (catt.gable): yes

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: in hinduism they at least have more then one god

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:54] Catt (catt.gable): I only mentioned Moses because of a blanket statement made about no one having seen god

[13:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): and god exists in our collective minds.

[13:54] Catt (catt.gable): have

[13:54] Catt (catt.gable): Someone (as you say some people) believe they have

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: and the word avatar comes from the materialisation f these gods as they are portraited

[13:55] Catt (catt.gable): yes Bejiita

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: wich is suiting since our avatars are virtual representations of ut

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: us

[13:55] Catt (catt.gable): yes

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: the word avatar is the hindu gods materializing

[13:56] herman Bergson: oh ..so we are all gods Bejiita?

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: aaargh chat lag

[13:56] herman Bergson: yes terrible chat lag

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: sort of its the same idea as how these invisible gods are turned into how we see them as shiva ect

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: and thats called avatar which then became avatar

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: thats how the term was formed

[13:58] herman Bergson: interesting....

[13:58] herman Bergson: and explains why we are god in our own Second Life

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: virtual 1 and 0 turn into our visible virtual representations of the rl person behind

[13:58] Catt (catt.gable): that hindus have hundreds of god avatars just suggests an effort to identify something that they intuit as greater than all of us

[13:59] herman Bergson: Well we are a bit drifted away from the main idea of this lecture.

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: Definition of AVATAR

1

: the incarnation of a Hindu deity (as Vishnu)

2

a : an incarnation in human form

b : an embodiment (as of a concept or philosophy) often in a person

3

: a variant phase or version of a continuing basic entity

4

: an electronic image that represents and is manipulated by a computer user (as in a computer game)

[14:00] herman Bergson: That there is opposition to the scientific look at reality originating from religious quarters :-)

[14:00] Debbie Dee entered chat range (4.86 m).

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[14:01] herman Bergson: The SL weather is very bad today....

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: its laggy for sure server need restart i think

[14:01] Catt (catt.gable): bad today

[14:01] herman Bergson: lots of crashes and lag

[14:01] Debbie Dee (framdor): yep. and my umbrella is at home.....

[14:01] herman Bergson: not only here...

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: some of my messages show only after about 10 mins

[14:02] herman Bergson: heard it form others too

[14:02] Debbie Dee (framdor): The lecture came through muddled :(

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: gets all messed up

[14:02] herman Bergson: Then..let me thank you all for your participation....

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): better go offline then and have a good sleep

[14:02] Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[14:02] herman Bergson: and let's hope for better conditions on Thursday

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: i got some stuff to think about at least

[14:02] Catt (catt.gable): Thanks Herman, let's try this again when SL is more stable?

[14:02] herman Bergson: Quite so Beertje!

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: and was interesting start

[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): night all... and thanks Herman...

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight all:) sweet dreams

[14:03] herman Bergson: Thank you Bejiita

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

447: The Art Not to be an Egoist 12

Probably the most important difference between man and ape  is easy to identify: it is the ability of humans to establish norms. 

Apes only make the difference accepted and not-accepted. They obviously do not make the distinction between acceptable and non-acceptable. 

In short, they do not translate their judgment into a  standard, a custom or rule. As far as we know, apes do not derive abstract rules of behavior from their actual behavior.

The ability to universal norms, rules and maxims is an impressive human achievement. We are able to reason from the singular to the universal, the generalization.

But where does that come from? If our feelings, our social intuition guides our actions, why would we then need a reasonable general maxim? 

Why imprinted evolution in our minds the ability to formulate abstract norms and abstract value and judge ourselves and others by them? In other words: how in an empire of Willing came Ought into the world?

Where does the Ought come from. Regarding to this question it seems that biologists, psychologists and philosophers are pretty much in agreement.

To be able to play the social chess we play we need the ability to put ourselves in the place of the other. What would the other expect me to do? 

Because of this ability it could have helped our ancestors to develop the simple rule: What you don't want to happen to you, don't make it happen to your neighbor either.

From the ability of compassion and the basic sense of unfairness developed a first an unspoken and later verbalized rule.

When you analyze the protection against unfair treatment,  you run into feelings like decency, shame and taboo. Feelings which are absolutely necessary in a society to function.

So we could say that our morality developed from our social intuition and later our evolving brain translated this into rules, norms and standards of behavior? Is it really that simple?

At least one question has to answered yet: When we all use the same social intuition, then how can it be that people often act so differently individually? Why don't we all have the same moral reflexes?

When you look  at a cultural level you run into the same question. When all people have the same basic feeling of unfairness like the Capuzine monkeys seem to have too, why then are in some cultures women oppressed for centuries?

And where was the intuitive sense of decency and shame in the guards of concentration camps or for instance a prison in Iraq?

Brain damage of the prefrontal lobe leads to immoral and uncontrolled behavior, like we have seen with the famous Phineas Gage from 1848.

But it would be a bridge too far to claim that al our common immoral behavior like cheating, lying, speeding and so on, it the result of brain damage.

Our complex social life is only possible because we have moral standards. But at the same time there is a constant battle going on between our prehistoric social intuition and our ratio, as guardian of norms and standards.

When you and your group are hiding for a bunch of murdering soldiers and a baby starts crying so loud, that it will  reveal your hiding place….would you choke the baby? The death of one in exchange for the life of 15 others?

When you think about an answer you might conclude that our intuition or feeling isn't worse than our reason, where social intuition says "NO",while reason may say "YES". 

A second point is that our rational judgements are never void of feelings.

And the third point is, that what leads to the final decision, our social intuition or our ratio, is different in every individual person.

Morality is a social tool. It makes our complex way of social life possible. To grasp the whole picture we have to take our thoughts one step further.

Whether social intuition or rational deliberation is at the basis of our action, we will always be asked to JUSTIFY our action, give reasons.

This ability and need to justify our actions may be the essence of our morality. Our next point of interest and investigation.

This is the last lecture before the Holidays. The next lecture will be Tuesday January 8.. ^_^

The Discussion

[13:26] herman Bergson: Thank you all ^_^

[13:26] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: Nice Herman .)

[13:26] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): *nice and interesting* Herman

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:26] Jane Fossett: woo, thank you

[13:26] Qwark Allen: very nice

[13:26] Qwark Allen: still digesting it

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:27] herman Bergson: I agree it wasn't easy today....

[13:27] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): thank you, herman :)

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that baby question is not an old one it is renewed lately

[13:27] herman Bergson: But the main point you should keep in mind it the idea of justification....

[13:27] Rik (diedo.loopen): ty herman

[13:28] herman Bergson: It was originaly invented by Jonathan Greene....harvard prof..

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i was listening to a syrian child talk to an interviewer

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the other day

[13:29] herman Bergson: and it demonstrates clearly how we respond....intuitively or rationally

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Something you said near the end Herman reminds me that I previously had an opinion about the chimps in the video

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: a thing i came to think about what u said before

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is still going on

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That they were showing consideration for others in order to gain acceptance in their group

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: i read an article in the news about why hitler could make an whole army of murderers, it seems that they were not blindly following orders as they have thought

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: but actually was made to believe that the jews were like cockroaches and that it was right thing to make them suffer

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: a bit worrying

[13:30] herman Bergson: No Bejiita...and I'll come to that in next lectures....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: meaning that these terrible acts will always exist he ended the article with

[13:30] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): look at israel and gaza

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: however don't know about the expertise of the writer of the article

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: but made me think a bit

[13:31] herman Bergson: Well bejiita..he has some point...

[13:31] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): it has been always a method of the ruling party to discriminate a minority by comparing them with animals, so it had been easier for their soldiers to attack and kill them

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: i really hope it isn't the case that u can just reprogram someone to hate

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:31] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): not only for the soldiers

[13:32] herman Bergson: Indeed Oceana...

[13:32] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): for the people also

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well Bejita... it did look a bit like they could programme people then

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: also why are all women without rights in saudi arabia

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: also terrible

[13:32] Rik (diedo.loopen): maybe there is a god

[13:32] herman Bergson: It is the We or They issue...

[13:32] herman Bergson: We'll discuss that here too

[13:32] Jane Fossett: yes

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:32] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:33] herman Bergson: But we need a New Year for that ^_^

[13:33] Rik (diedo.loopen): maybe it s not question yes or no

[13:33] Rik (diedo.loopen): yes right

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think the Us and Them issue could get a lot worse with increasing population

[13:33] Rik (diedo.loopen): we can consider it

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: indeed this is very tricky subject

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: makes the head spinning sometimes hehe

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: but very interesting stuff that make u really think

[13:33] Rik (diedo.loopen): and pray for our loves ones

[13:34] herman Bergson: Well Merlin...think of the present financial crisis.....

[13:34] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): it is a worldwide game about might

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes Herman?

[13:34] herman Bergson: the increasing gap between the rich and poor in this world....

[13:34] herman Bergson: Ready for an US or Them battle if this continues

[13:34] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): there is no real financial crisis, it is man made

[13:35] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): the financial leaders always win

[13:35] herman Bergson: Oh true Alegra...absolutely true...

[13:35] Rik (diedo.loopen): i think it always been this way about very rich and poor people

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well you could guess who would win such a battle

[13:35] herman Bergson: In fact there is no crisis at all...it is just the way it is...

[13:35] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): yes, there´s is no outside of the imperium as one of the recent philosopher put it, all the markets are so interlinked, that it will come to something like a big bubble to explode one day ...

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: the ones with the most money always seem to win

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: not fair

[13:36] herman Bergson: Look at history Merlin...lots of kings were decapitated

[13:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): look what they do withe the money to save a country ... they are saving banks

[13:36] Rik (diedo.loopen): than we need to define what a crisis is

[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very true

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:36] herman Bergson: exactly Rik..^_^

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): My thoughts were as Bejiita, but 'yeah' also to Hermans point

[13:36] herman Bergson: that is the whole point!

[13:36] Jane Fossett: There are many levels of social interaction, many circumstances where 'us' and 'them' change. I think the conflict between those group interactions likely fuels in part the change in ethical paradigms.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: feeding their own pockets instead of make the country work

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:36] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): right

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: those bankers

[13:37] Rik (diedo.loopen): i can imagine some relay have a crisis losing jobs and not able to take their family

[13:37] herman Bergson: oops ..that was a difficult one Jane...:-)

[13:37] Rik (diedo.loopen): really

[13:37] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:37] Rik (diedo.loopen): sorry for my english i tend to type to fast sometimes

[13:37] herman Bergson: could you rephrase it a bit?

[13:37] Jane Fossett: I'll rephrase one part of my statement

[13:37] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): if ordinary citizens has to "support" their banks and get no interests for not risky savings, then something is entirely wrong with the market... this system increases the decay of the middle class

[13:38] herman Bergson: Dont worry Rik..we all understand typonees here

[13:38] Jane Fossett: conflict drives culture

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: indeed the people give but give nothing back

[13:38] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): the middle class has to pay all at least

[13:38] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): and the gap will become bigger

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: same with insurance companies paying high fees and then they make up a reason to not give u anything when an accident or similar happens

[13:38] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): the middle class is fading away ...

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: u give but get nothing back

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Oceana...that is a problem...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats stealing i d say

[13:39] Jane Fossett: 'middle class' is ambiguous, its a group tag I think

[13:39] herman Bergson: The rise of culture and prosperity occurred when a middle class grew in a society..

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I agree.. it is a kind of no-mans land

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:40] herman Bergson: bridging the gap between poor and rich...

[13:40] Jane Fossett: we split people up into groups...

[13:40] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): as bourdieu put it, how can we survive with our cultural capital... if the matrix conditions are changing...

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The middle class is the only one who finds raising children expensive

[13:40] Rik (diedo.loopen): i like the text ........nothing new under the sun ,maybe we need to look at it from a different way

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes maybe

[13:41] herman Bergson: well...to get back to our point of focus....

[13:41] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): of course nothing new, in former times the kings now the bankers

[13:41] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:41] herman Bergson: what we are studying here is the question after Human NAture...

[13:42] herman Bergson: So far we see a distinction between social intuition and rational judgement....

[13:42] herman Bergson: but the new issue now is....

[13:43] herman Bergson: that whether social intuition or rational deliberation guide our moral behavior...

[13:43] herman Bergson: we still have to JUSTIFY our actions.....

[13:43] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): only the conditions that lead to justification are very personally

[13:43] herman Bergson: That will be our concern for the new year...

[13:44] Jane Fossett: :-) and criteria for justification is another whole ball of wax.

[13:44] herman Bergson: That Alegra is the big question....

[13:44] Jane Fossett: :-)

[13:44] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): is your question more related to the old kantian question, how should we act?

[13:44] herman Bergson: Indeed Jane!

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we always have the questions :-)

[13:45] herman Bergson: But the demand of justification of moral behavior transcends social intuition or rational deliberation

[13:45] herman Bergson: at least at an individual level

[13:45] herman Bergson: The justification is some kind of public issue

[13:46] herman Bergson: Like you see today with all these greedy bankers....

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): isn't that why we have laws?

[13:46] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): hahaha yes

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: thats true

[13:46] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): I believe in certain moral standards to make life bearable for a great amount of people

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and a justice system?

[13:46] herman Bergson: Oh yes Oceana.....

[13:46] herman Bergson: that is what justification implies

[13:46] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): :)

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: i use to think, how can these bankers sleep well at night with no shame

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): to do it for a great amount of people who may not agree

[13:47] herman Bergson: For instance a Declaration of Human Rights

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): on ratio

[13:47] Jane Fossett: one issue is whether that 'demand' is internal or external... I think much cultural evolution is fueled by conflict and the need to change.

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I don't know that word 'ratio' in this sense

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): individually we may never agree on something

[13:47] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): perhaps they old the use strategies of ignoring the suffering and poverty of a lot of people...

[13:48] herman Bergson: You are pretty conflict loving Jane ^_^

[13:48] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): old=use

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so we create laws to cover that

[13:48] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): badly that law often is adapted to the wrong minority

[13:48] Jane Fossett: haha just practical

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma....Law is almost transcendental in this respect

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:49] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): but, to what kind of group does this laws apply.... are they for everyone... or are there for the people who are ruling a country and can get away with murder

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lol

[13:49] Jane Fossett: grin

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): should be for everyone

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: but sometimes u wonder indeed

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): like the individual bankers who were in charge of the mess

[13:49] Qwark Allen: you should see what is happening in portugal then

[13:49] Jane Fossett: 'ethics' are in context to the group.

[13:49] herman Bergson: Indeed Oceana....we don't need to call names here

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Hmm there is news in Britain just now about that very thing... the murder of an Irishman

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and should be prosecuted

[13:50] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): look at regulation in copyright or somethings else .. ACTA

[13:50] Qwark Allen: all politicians at parlement have parlementary immunity

[13:50] Qwark Allen: its worst then in the time of monarchy there, when only the king has immunity

[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark…Berlusconi is running for is like a rabbit

[13:50] Qwark Allen: haahha

[13:51] Qwark Allen: he is italian

[13:51] Qwark Allen: its kind of the same

[13:51] herman Bergson: twisted as spagetti

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:51] Jane Fossett: In the US, a very large number of congressmen became millionaires after they were elected. I guess that was a reward for their 'ethics.'

[13:51] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:51] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: i dont get how that swine can continue, now Berlu is soon back on the throne again even he have done so many nasty thing

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: he should be in jail by long

[13:52] herman Bergson: Weird observation Jane...

[13:52] Jane Fossett: haha

[13:52] Qwark Allen: tortelini you ment :-)))

[13:52] herman Bergson: Does congress pay that well?

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hahahah

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nono

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:52] Jane Fossett: No sill :-)

[13:52] Jane Fossett: y

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they go speak

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: lol that ill start to cal him Berlusconi

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and get money

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: Tortelini

[13:52] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lots !!!

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:52] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): well, the common trust into the political caste seems to fail - so to what authority can we put trust in

[13:52] Qwark Allen: heheheh bejita

[13:52] herman Bergson: Wow...gonna apply for that job too....

[13:53] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): lol herman

[13:53] herman Bergson: Just look at all those Lindens in the new year !!!

[13:53] Qwark Allen: you have to learn how to be a good corrupt then hermann

[13:53] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again...

[13:53] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:53] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:53] Jane Fossett: woo!

[13:53] Qwark Allen: thank you :-)))

[13:53] herman Bergson: This was the last lecture of 2012..

[13:53] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): thank you for a great class, herman :)

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): hahaha herman as new lobbyist for linden

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: but it is same with politicians here, even if they get fired even after being a very short while they still get millions in bonuses for years

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh no

[13:54] herman Bergson: in 2013 we may celebrate my 500th Lecture!!!!

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): wow

[13:54] Qwark Allen: ahha

[13:54] herman Bergson: so Qwark...

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): congrats

[13:54] Qwark Allen: we need to make a partyy that day

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you for all the wonderful lectures this year Herman!

[13:54] herman Bergson: Begin thinking about a big party...^_^

[13:54] Rik (diedo.loopen): ty herman

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): like graduation ?

[13:54] Alegra (hkalegre.koba): party?! oh yes for sure

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): never happens

[13:54] Rik (diedo.loopen): gemma see u soon fishing

[13:55] herman Bergson: It was a great pleasure again...

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nice to see you

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in class

[13:55] Qwark Allen: was great lectures this year for sure

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: so its an endless misery spiral for these people

[13:55] herman Bergson: I thank you all and hope to see you in good health in January again