428: The Art Not to be an Egoist 3

Our basic thesis is that we all want to be good, live the good life, but yet we do bad things (now and then). And more specific we look for the Art Not to be an Egoist.

In the previous lecture we learnt that Plato implanted the belief in our culture, that there is something as The Good, which we only can see when we have true knowledge,

And most important for that is that we do not indulge in lust and pleasure, which are only short lived. We need to focus on real virtues.

Bill Gates possesses billions of dollars. Far to much to be able to spend in one lifetime. So, he has to decided to do good, create funds for good causes.

But how good is good? Suppose he helps one country. The result is that surrounding countries get jealous, feel threatened by the richer neighbor and therefor start a war.

Or he helps one relative with money. Result is a big quarrel among relatives in terms of "Why he and not us?" and so on. Can we do any good at all?

How do we measure the "goodness" of our actions. And even worse, what is good for me doesn't have to be good for you.

Like Plato noticed… being a warrior is good for Achilles, being a family man isn't, tho there is nothing bad in being a family man.

We have a problem here. There seems to be a difference between what is good for me and what is good as such. What then is the GOOD life morally?

The answer of Plato is that there is a hierarchy of virtues like honesty, friendship, loyalty and so on and at the top there is the virtue of knowing what is Good.

From our point of view it is a bit odd idea, such a scale of virtues. The idea that living according to these virtues, you life the good life.

Sophocles and Euripides, old men in the days of young Plato, demonstrated in their tragedies how virtues can collide.

Truthfulness is a good virtue, but does that mean that being morally good means telling the truth always and everywhere?

Time and again we get confused by conflicting virtues.

Deciding for one thing implies deciding against something else.

Giving money to help people in country A implies that you decide not to give money to country not-A with the same needs.

But do we have to evaluate our actions not only on what good they do but also what not-good they do? I guess we soon would go crazy.

In other words, there does not exists such a thing as an absolute Good which is embedded in the cosmic order as Plato believed.

Honesty may be a good thing, but making the right decision in a situation whether to honest or not is another thing.

Yet Plato's idea of the Absolute Good still lives on. It makes our life on big choice: only he who chooses for the Good will life a good and righteous life.

He who chooses for God and the Bible will live such a life, or he who chooses for Allah. A religious criminal is still more than a righteous acting pagan.

This belief in the RIGHT choice is still a well known phenomenon. The right choice is communism…no christianity…no islam……no humanism. In other word, ideological dictatorship. 

Then there is a choice. What is good for me doesn't need to be good for someone else. But doesn't that mean an absolute moral relativism?

Here we have to defend Plato a little. There can be no ethics without some kind of hierarchy of values from good to bad.

On the one hand people in Western Europe no longer believe in some cosmic moral order. On the other hand we yet need a solid standard which helps us to make moral judgements.

What can we learn from Plato's error of the idea of ​​the Good, is that there doesn't exist a good beyond people. No Good, then, if it is not from this world. 

Good is a relative thing. But that very peculiar thing about it is: it is  a relative thing with often absolute claim. And this paradox is inevitable. 

For if it is true that beyond the human life and society there  is no Good in the world, we yet often treat the Good necessarily as if it would be absolutely and objectively.

Thus morally we seem to have two choices: what is good for me and what is good as such? But does the "what is good for me"not always prevail? So, aren't we basically egoists?

The Discussion

[13:26] herman Bergson: Thank you ....

[13:26] herman Bergson: The floor is yours...

[13:26] Mick Nerido: First: do no harm, the doctors credo... helps us decide, I think.

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

[13:26] Merlin Saxondale: I have considered these issues myself, in the past, and for what its worth, my choice was 'Utilitarianism' which is the 'greatest good for the greatest number'.

[13:26] Beertje Beaumont: why should we be good?..what is the use of it?

[13:27] herman Bergson: Ok Merlin...

[13:27] herman Bergson: And Beertje....

[13:27] Merlin Saxondale: Yes Beertje that is a valid question

[13:27] herman Bergson: What would you do when I was bad to you....

[13:27] herman Bergson: feel happy?

[13:27] herman Bergson: kick my ass?

[13:27] Beertje Beaumont: yes!

[13:28] Beertje Beaumont: and that would feel good

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Connie

[13:28] herman Bergson: indeed...

[13:28] CONNIE Eichel: hi lizzy :)

[13:28] herman Bergson: Hi CONNIE :-)

[13:28] Vadaman: Hi!

[13:28] CONNIE Eichel whispers: hi all :)

[13:28] Beertje Beaumont: but it's not about what I feel..but what you feel when you want to be bad

[13:28] CONNIE Eichel: hi professor :)

[13:28] Merlin Saxondale: I am not much in favour of 'forgiveness' ... revenge woud be my way

[13:29] herman Bergson: well Merlin there we go...blood will flow..

[13:29] Vadaman: Hmmm. Does revenge make you feel better?

[13:29] Merlin Saxondale: yes

[13:29] herman Bergson: But maybe Beertjes remark is more fundamental...

[13:29] herman Bergson: why would we ever want to be good...

[13:29] herman Bergson: ok Beertje...

[13:30] Merlin Saxondale: My answer to Beertje is 'Enlightened self-interest'

[13:30] herman Bergson: good means the evaluation of our actions...

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: in reality we have to use the fundamental virtues pragmatically

[13:30] Mick Nerido: Hell is paved with GOOD intentions...

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Mick.....

[13:30] Vadaman: True

[13:30] herman Bergson: that is that paradox....what is good for me and what is GOOD

[13:31] Mick Nerido: We never know what is good until after the fact...

[13:31] herman Bergson: Good answer Merlin...Enlightened Self-interest

[13:31] herman Bergson: at least that....

[13:31] Merlin Saxondale: :)

[13:32] herman Bergson: OK..we are the only species able to give a REASON for our actions

[13:32] Merlin Saxondale: I agree that it is interesting to consider what exists outside of human life, e.g. animals.

[13:32] herman Bergson: that is the whole point of ethics actually...

[13:33] Mick Nerido: Not to kill is good...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well MErlin..not that ability to give a reason for an action....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well Merlin...study all debates on death penalty for instance

[13:33] Vadaman: Try not to be bad is already something for starters.

[13:34] herman Bergson: You mean newbies n SL should try not to be bad in SL Vadaman?:-))

[13:34] Merlin Saxondale: lol

[13:35] herman Bergson: That only hold a week

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:35] Vadaman: Haha. No, I mean in sl and rl.

[13:35] CONNIE Eichel: hehe

[13:35] Merlin Saxondale: "What is bad" is an equivalent problem

[13:35] herman Bergson: grins..

[13:36] Vadaman: Hmmm. What is bad for me can be good for others?

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes Vadaman...that is the problem...and the other way around...

[13:36] Mick Nerido: it's an ill wind that doesn't blow some good...

[13:37] herman Bergson: it seems there is a 'good' for me' and a 'good in general'

[13:37] herman Bergson: For instance....

[13:37] herman Bergson: in general..it is bad to kill...

[13:37] herman Bergson: but suppose...

[13:37] herman Bergson: that man...

[13:38] herman Bergson: if he runs free he will go to the authorities and you'll face a death sentence....

[13:38] Mick Nerido: If you fall and break a leg it is bad for you but good for me the DR. who fixes it

[13:38] herman Bergson: only option is to kill that man...

[13:38] herman Bergson: and beware...

[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: it can be good to kill a tyrant

[13:38] llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found

[13:39] herman Bergson: you get the death sentence because you pleaded for human rights and freedom of speech

[13:39] Merlin Saxondale: I dont think the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is stated quite that way. It says not to commit murder or something

[13:39] herman Bergson: Killing the tyrant is a typical greek tragedy issue...

[13:39] herman Bergson: ahh Merlin....

[13:40] Mick Nerido: Any means to a good end?

[13:40] herman Bergson: Nice remark!

[13:40] herman Bergson: But is murder not an evaluation of an action?

[13:40] Merlin Saxondale: ty I am trying to look it up now

[13:40] herman Bergson: and isn't that evaluation not determined by culture...or ideology?

[13:41] herman Bergson: so is killing a tyrant murder?

[13:41] herman Bergson: was killing Hitler murder?

[13:41] herman Bergson: or killing Stalin

[13:42] herman Bergson: people who were responseble of the death of millions of peole

[13:42] Merlin Saxondale: Wikipedia gives that commandment as "You shall not murder."

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: thank god we never had to decide that

[13:42] Beertje Beaumont: yes i think so...it still is murder at a person

[13:43] Beertje Beaumont: if we kill a tyrant we are as bad as the tyrant himself

[13:43] herman Bergson: here we are at a fundamental debate...

[13:43] Merlin Saxondale: of course you could always leave the dirty work of execution to someone else

[13:43] Vadaman: To some it would be. Also the tyrant has a mother, friends, children.

[13:43] herman Bergson: comparable to the debate on the justified war

[13:43] Mick Nerido: I agree Beertje

[13:43] herman Bergson: justified and unjustified murder

[13:44] herman Bergson: if you define the word murder only as the action of taking someones life

[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: in LAW, some acts of killing are not called murder

[13:44] Mick Nerido: Stopping the tyrant is best but not killing him

[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: Yes Mick, that is a possibility

[13:44] herman Bergson: that is what I mean Merlin...

[13:45] herman Bergson: Killing in selfdefence ...standard argument

[13:45] Merlin Saxondale: Killing in war is an example too

[13:45] herman Bergson: If I don;t kill him he will kill me

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: yes merlin

[13:46] herman Bergson: OK...

[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: does it feel good to kill a person even he wants to kill you?

[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: Probably not

[13:46] herman Bergson: so we conclude that there is no absolute virtue saying Thou shall not kill

[13:46] herman Bergson: Here we have the same point....

[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: There is a tradition that people have a tattoo teardrop under their eye if they have killed someone....

[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: I saw such a man recently on a bus

[13:47] herman Bergson: can also be machismo...:-)

[13:47] herman Bergson: or a way to impress people

[13:47] Merlin Saxondale: well this guy looked pretty sad to me

[13:48] Merlin Saxondale: He seemed to KNOW that I knew what it meant when I looked at him

[13:48] Mick Nerido: It is a goodness not to have to kill...

[13:48] Vadaman: I know one who has two. I am not sure if he is a killer. Let's not judge too fast.

[13:48] herman Bergson: Let me put it this way....

[13:48] herman Bergson: the quintessence here is..

[13:49] herman Bergson: that on the one hand we love to hold the rule Thou shall not kill...

[13:49] herman Bergson: we use it as a standard to evaluate our actions...

[13:49] herman Bergson: on the other hand we have the thou shall not kill unless....

[13:49] herman Bergson: that also applies to our actions...

[13:50] herman Bergson: For the moment....

[13:50] herman Bergson: let it be an unsolved problem...

[13:50] Beertje Beaumont: there is much more in good and bad except killing eachother

[13:50] herman Bergson: but it is a real moral problem we will deal with in next lectures

[13:51] Beertje Beaumont: it can be in little things

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...

[13:51] herman Bergson: the killing issue is just an extreme example....

[13:52] herman Bergson: you re right that the worst things are in the little things people do rot eachother...

[13:52] herman Bergson: that is our daily life...

[13:52] Beertje Beaumont: yes and to deal with that can be very difficult

[13:52] herman Bergson: yes....

[13:52] Merlin Saxondale: well that might be true but only because of the number of instances

[13:53] herman Bergson: even can lead to suicide..like happened last week in th Netherlands...a boy of 20 years of age...

[13:53] Beertje Beaumont: yes..that;s what I meant

[13:53] herman Bergson: I guess you a refering to that Beertje?

[13:53] Beertje Beaumont: yes

[13:53] Merlin Saxondale: I was, yes

[13:54] Beertje Beaumont: i didn't know what 'pesten'is in english excuse me for that

[13:54] herman Bergson: The boy was bullied for a long time..

[13:54] Merlin Saxondale: Oh pesten? It sounds like pester, or harass

[13:54] herman Bergson: yes Merlin ..perfect...

[13:55] Beertje Beaumont: ㋡

[13:55] Merlin Saxondale: :)

[13:55] herman Bergson: Well...

[13:55] herman Bergson: for now...

[13:55] herman Bergson: you got enough to think about....

[13:55] herman Bergson: one the one hand the absolute 'Thou shall not..."

[13:56] herman Bergson: and on the other hand the unless...."

[13:56] Merlin Saxondale smiles

[13:56] herman Bergson: we seem to love and like both..and even need both for our morality

[13:56] Mick Nerido: Thanks professor...

[13:56] Beertje Beaumont: lol

[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation...:-)

[13:57] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman

[13:57] herman Bergson: See you on Tuesday again...and do your homework plz

[13:57] herman Bergson: THINK

[13:57] CONNIE Eichel: i will try to :)

[13:57] Vadaman: Thank you Herman.

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman, it was interesting again

[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:57] CONNIE Eichel: lovely class :)

[13:57] Beertje Beaumont: have a goodnight:)

[13:58] Merlin Saxondale: Bye

[13:58] CONNIE Eichel: bye bye all :)

[13:58] CONNIE Eichel: kisses :)

[13:58] herman Bergson: You leave me alone Merlin???

[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody

[13:58] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:59] herman Bergson: Bye Lizzy

[13:59] Vadaman: Dag Herman. Tot ziens. 

427: The Art Not to be an Egoist 2

The basic concept of a talk show is something like this. You pick a subject, put three or four experts together and add a host to lead the debate on the subject.

Joe Franklin, an American radio and television personality, hosted the first television talk show. The show began in 1951.

But the "inventor' of the concept was Plato (424  - 348 B.C). Because he did not yet have television he had to write it all down in his dialogs. His talk show host was Socrates.

The shows were always discussing fundamental issues, like "What is knowledge?", "What is the good life?", How do we know the Good?"

It's always the same crux however, with the enlightened ones, from Plato and Buddha to the Pope or the Dalai Lama. In fact it is always a dull discussion, because they already seem to know all answers.

Socrates is a kind of dictator, demanding of his followers and readers actually a clear decision: They should commit themselves to be good, 

and renounce all other temptations. A radical life stands before them, trained by the iron disciplinarian Plato.

But how should this life look like? 

The old, in Ancient Greece widespread issue was: How do I handle life with the sensual pleasures? Do they make life good? Or do they interfere with the good life? 

For Plato this is a key question: reason or lust - which makes long-term happiness? The answer is pretty straightforward: feather weigh fleeting comforts of lust against the permanent satisfaction of a good and righteous life. 

According to to Plato, the body with powerful drives and needs only slows us down in the pursuit of happiness. Again and again it leads us into temptation and astray. Only those who free themselves of it are actually free. 

A truly happy life - Plato's word for it is eudaimonia, - is freed from judging the life by cheap standards of pleasure and pain.  The true philosopher transcends his sensual needs.

Since all sense pleasures are temporary and as each sensuous happiness can turn into its opposite, Plato chooses a way of life with inbuilt risk insurance: evading pain in stead of gaining pleasure. 

The enormous impact on European cultural history can not be overstated. As Plato's philosophy is revived again in the Middle Ages, it inspired Christianity to an ascetic and anti-physical ideal in a devastating way.

The goal of life is to overcome the primitive sensuality as much as possible.The bottom line is for Plato: The pleasure principle is not sustainable.  So lust can not be the quintessence of a good life.

Not sexuality, money, food or other pleasures make lasting happiness, only the philosophical abstemious lifestyle. And who measures his life according to the criterion of pleasure and pain, selects a wrong scale.

But if you choose for such a life that only focuses on knowing The Good, there must be some pleasure in it, wouldn't it? So isn't there a relation between the Good and pleasure?

Plato has no answer. The best he offers is a metaphor. Like the sun  is life to earth, so is the Good life to our soul. No clear description of the Good.

Yet, when the soul has knowledge of the Good, it will know in every situation what morally is right and good. How we can acquire this knowledge Plato doesn't tell unfortunately.

But if we knew the Good….and we all would be so nice to each other, wouldn't that be a really dull life. Not to mention the question: Is such a life possible for us?

The basic idea is, that to be a good person you have to know the Good. Knowing what is the Good, doesn't come for free. You have to abstain from lust. Then  you will live a happy and fulfilled life!

That made me think of something which is now apparently the new religion. Today the definition of The Good = physical health.

Thence, if you are physically healthy, you will enjoy a happy and fulfilled life. That is what they want us to believe.

The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: Thank you.... ^_^

[13:24] Hermine: who is they?

[13:24] Merlin Saxondale: Very interesting today Herman :)

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:24] Merlin Saxondale: I am trying to get away from that puritan ethic of denying myself things. Some religions encourage you to 'take what you need' of life.

[13:24] herman Bergson: Interesting remark Hermine...WHO ARE THEY...

[13:25] Hermine: yes seriosly

[13:25] herman Bergson: I can answer that....

[13:25] herman Bergson: yes..it is serious indeed

[13:25] herman Bergson: and it is a good appraoch ...

[13:26] herman Bergson: ok...let's focus on this "THEY"

[13:26] Beertje Beaumont: do we have to do what THEY say or want..can't we think for ourselves?

[13:26] herman Bergson: First of all the general attitude is....we have to be physically healthy....

[13:27] herman Bergson: plz...wait....

[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: it is advertisement for example, no special person, something like Zeitgeist

[13:27] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy...

[13:28] Hermine: i would say its the society

[13:28] herman Bergson: But the point is that the new god in this world is physical health...

[13:28] herman Bergson: the hospitals are the new churches and the doctors are our priests

[13:28] Hermine: but health is important to lead a happy live^

[13:28] Vadaman: Here here

[13:28] herman Bergson: That is what THEY make us believe...

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:29] Hermine: well i would say no

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:29] Hermine: to live a healthy live

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: it is worth striving for beauty, health and richness

[13:29] Hermine: not to go to the doctors^^

[13:29] Gemma Cleanslate: well since we are going to live so much longer ... they ... may be right

[13:29] Hermine: i think also that the health systems makes us ill

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Hermine...

[13:30] herman Bergson: Told you...this is a complex issue....

[13:30] Gemma Cleanslate: Yes-ah!

[13:30] Hermine: yes its our own responsibility to stay healthy

[13:30] herman Bergson: What we are after here is What is good....what is a good life...what makes me a good human being....

[13:31] Hermine: help ppl

[13:31] herman Bergson: and after Plato Christianity has told use

[13:31] Catt Gable: Chu, yes if you have the means and conditions around you to do so

[13:31] herman Bergson: but that didn't work...

[13:31] Hermine: beeing friendly

[13:31] herman Bergson: we still are sinners

[13:31] Hermine: lol

[13:31] Hermine: mostly yes herman

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:31] Hermine: we are all weak

[13:31] herman Bergson: but this idea...this belief in that ONE THING....

[13:31] Merlin Saxondale: That sounds like the Original Sin idea

[13:31] herman Bergson: our wish to know WHAT is GOOD....

[13:32] herman Bergson: we all want to be good people, don't we?

[13:32] AnnieBrightstar: Do we?

[13:32] herman Bergson: and now we are made to believe that when you liv en a physically healthy body you are a good person...

[13:32] Hermine: i guess that is a fabric of the entire society.

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: but where is the moral aspect?

[13:32] herman Bergson: mens sana corpore sano...

[13:32] Merlin Saxondale: Dale Carnegie said in his book that everybody thinks of themselves as good... Example give was Al Capone

[13:33] Hermine: moral creates the entire society.

[13:33] herman Bergson: old saying...and they believed it

[13:33] Hermine: and a good moral and what is good is build in a group of meanings

[13:33] Hermine: i guess

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:33] herman Bergson: Here I object Merlin....

[13:33] Merlin Saxondale: There are not enough resources in the world for every one. we have to compete at the expense of others

[13:33] herman Bergson: with good we mean morally good here

[13:33] Merlin Saxondale: Oh?

[13:34] herman Bergson: killing people is not good in this sense...

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: indeed thats the worst thing ever

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: to do

[13:34] Merlin Saxondale: Well I don't think Al Capone was good, but He did

[13:34] Hermine: yes everyone knows, but they are still killing in the name of god

[13:35] herman Bergson: what the individual person thinks is not the point here....

[13:35] Merlin Saxondale: yes thats an example too Chu

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:35] herman Bergson: because then you plead for absolute relativism

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: Jihad and such horrible things

[13:36] herman Bergson: The point is that Plato introduced a belief in a Good....

[13:36] herman Bergson: that transcends our individual being...

[13:36] herman Bergson: that penetrated our culture deeply...

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: so plato is the origin of all that?

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: I see

[13:36] Merlin Saxondale: Remind us.. Was Plato and Socrates before Jesus?

[13:37] herman Bergson: and in that sense I say that the idea pf 'health' has replaced that transendental idea of the good today

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Merlin 400 years BC :-)

[13:37] Merlin Saxondale nods

[13:37] Merlin Saxondale: I think there were a lot of ideas being passed around at that time

[13:38] Hermine: and we have still the same questions

[13:38] Merlin Saxondale: John the Baptist, Ancient china etc

[13:38] Hermine: and no answers^^

[13:38] herman Bergson: JB was 400 years after Plato..and China was unknown to the Greek in those days

[13:39] Merlin Saxondale: 3 kings from the orient?

[13:39] herman Bergson: The amazing thing is the way Plato thought about life....

[13:39] Merlin Saxondale: I think ideas could spread, even if there was no knowledge of the place they came from

[13:39] herman Bergson: which was strongly influenced by the world around him in those days...

[13:40] Merlin Saxondale: Some Indians believe their ideas were passed to Jesus an co

[13:40] herman Bergson: Plato lived in a politically and socially collapsing world...

[13:40] herman Bergson: You mean people from India Merlin?

[13:41] Merlin Saxondale: Yes

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes there can be connections....

[13:41] herman Bergson: To give you an example...

[13:41] Merlin Saxondale: ty

[13:41] herman Bergson: Aristotle was our first great logician….

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: at the age between 12 and 30 there's nothing in the bible about jesus

[13:42] herman Bergson: but inIndia logic was already developed much more

[13:42] herman Bergson: in those days

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:42] Merlin Saxondale: Almost Lizzy, yes

[13:42] Merlin Saxondale: just his birth perhaps ;)

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: time enough to go to india

[13:42] herman Bergson: So what did Aristotle know about Indian logic???

[13:43] herman Bergson: well...communication was primitive...

[13:43] herman Bergson: books were really rare objects...

[13:43] herman Bergson: and so on...

[13:43] herman Bergson: but the idea is fascinating

[13:44] herman Bergson: Our starting point was...we don't want to be bad people,but good people....

[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: I get the feeling the people of Jesus times were hungry for spiritual knowledge and that such knowledge was passed by word of mouth

[13:44] herman Bergson: today a first attempt....

[13:44] herman Bergson: Plato's answer...

[13:45] herman Bergson: But he tells us to leave all goods thins in SLife behind...and stare at our pixels only!

[13:45] herman Bergson: only

[13:45] Hermine: oh ha yes^

[13:45] herman Bergson: I think we need another lecture :-)

[13:45] Hermine: haha

[13:45] herman Bergson: so

[13:45] herman Bergson: thank you all for your participation....

[13:46] herman Bergson: See you all an Thursday again ^_^

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:46] Vadaman: Thank you Herman.

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Professor

[13:46] Hermine: i will be here next tuesday again;-)

[13:46] AnnieBrightstar: thank you

[13:46] Hermine: thank you for the lesson!!

426: The Art Not to be an Egoist 1

Is it true that the human being basically is a selfish animal and that everything else is just a thin layer of culture? Is that us,  as Ayn Rand and Josef Kirschner claim?

The greedy bankers are depicted as the bad boys in this world and there is a call for new ethics. Aren't we in essence moral beings?

The competition between capitalism and socialism  brought us motivation: us against them. Capitalism was good, socialism bad. 

And now we have to discover that capitalism is bad too. No morals at all. Just look around. We live in a world where we influence the climate.

We build industries, like chemical plants or nuclear power plants, that bring some profit, but if things go wrong, we aren't able to handle the ensuing disaster.

We live in an almost unlimited information society and are manipulated by information on a daily basis. We live in a world of unequally distributed resources.

And there we are amidst all this trying to decide what is good and what is bad.  But how much do we know about ourselves, how we function morally.

What do we really know in our age of science about the moral nature of man? What is the relation between our Self and ethics? 

When do we act ethical and when not? Why aren't we all good, as we actually would like to be? How can we make our world "better" in the long-term.

What is morality anyway? It is the way we interact with each other. Morality divides the world in two parts: the good and the bad.

Apparently we agree pretty much among each other, when we make an inventory of the Good: honesty and truth, friendship, loyalty, faithfulness, care and helpfulness, empathy, consideration, friendliness, manners and respect, bravery and citizenship.

All this we call good one way or an other but yet we have no absolute definition of Good. Being honest is one thing, but always being absolutely honest leads to hell.

Philosophers have developed many theories of what we ought to do, but nowadays we understand that we have to know more about human nature to understand morality.

But what is "human nature" exactly? For David Hume (1711 - 1776) there were two possible answers. On the one hand you can study human nature as an anatomist.

That is what the neuroscientists, evolutionary psychologists and biologists, sociologists and behavioral economists do.

On the other hand we can look at our human nature as an artist does, discovering the beauty of it. This is how theologians and philosophers of ethics do.

But it is nice to discuss virtues, but we need the scientists to explain why we not always act according to all these virtues, which we find so truly human and good.

Every era has its own way of describing human nature. Thomas Aquino (1225 - 1274) believed that the 'natura humana' was God's spirit, like God had given it to Adam.

In the 1970s to 1990s evolutionary biologists have "biologized" moral philosophy as is expressed by a title as "The Selfish Gene" (1976) by Richard Dawkins.

Attention was focused on characteristics like self-interest and selfishness. These seemed to be the "silent hand" behind our social life. It showed to be an incomplete picture.

So let's dig into morality and human nature and try to find out why we all want to do good and yet as often do bad.

The Discussion

[14:21] herman Bergson: Our present project....thank you ^_^

[14:22] herman Bergson: If you have any remarks or comments...the floor is yours :-)

[14:22] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): mmm, i think that the competitions model, have got into our way of social cohesion.. somehow

[14:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): again a lot think about

[14:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am a fan of Dawkins and I would like to say that The selfish Gene means the Gene is selfish....

[14:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Not that it is a gene for selfishness in the person

[14:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): just the gene????

[14:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes

[14:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): how

[14:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The gene tries to replicate itself

[14:23] herman Bergson: The idea is older than Dawkins...

[14:23] herman Bergson: he only popularized it...

[14:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes I know

[14:23] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): yes the behavior is a pattern that replicate itself

[14:23] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): transmitted pattern

[14:23] llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found

[14:24] herman Bergson: We live in a competetive society indeed Alaya...

[14:24] herman Bergson: Hi Shynu

[14:24] Shyne Hui: gives the professor a rose

[14:24] herman Bergson: Have a seat plz

[14:24] Shyne Hui: its Shyne

[14:24] Shyne Hui: gigals

[14:25] Bejiita Imako: hi Shyne

[14:25] Shyne Hui: pulls on ur pipe a bit

[14:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[14:25] Bejiita Imako: ehe

[14:25] Shyne Hui: u look vewy smawt

[14:25] Shyne Hui: hms

[14:25] Shyne Hui: sitsit

[14:25] herman Bergson: you disturb a class Shyne

[14:25] Shyne Hui: oo

[14:26] Shyne Hui: sowei

[14:26] Shyne Hui: moment i sit

[14:26] Shyne Hui: oki

[14:26] Shyne Hui: go on

[14:26] herman Bergson: thank you...

[14:26] Shyne Hui: moans:you welcome

[14:26] herman Bergson: ok...

[14:26] herman Bergson: this new project will be about morality and human nature...

[14:27] Shyne Hui: coughs lightly

[14:27] herman Bergson: It is based on the work of Richard David Pecht...

[14:27] herman Bergson: one of you mentioned him...

[14:27] herman Bergson: time ago...

[14:27] herman Bergson: A young german philosopher

[14:27] Bejiita Imako: ok

[14:28] herman Bergson: Today it all was still introductory...:-)

[14:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and still you gave us a lot to think about..

[14:29] Bejiita Imako: hehe yes

[14:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): is he on the internet??

[14:29] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): information about him i mean

[14:29] herman Bergson: Most important observation is that in the 70s t0 90s selfishness and self interest were accepted topics...

[14:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe Wiki Gemma

[14:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[14:29] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): and not now herman?

[14:29] herman Bergson: Lot of Pecht on the internet and youTube....Gemma

[14:29] herman Bergson: In a way self interest is discredited Alaya....

[14:30] Jaelle Faerye: i have to run alas

[14:30] Jaelle Faerye: thank you

[14:30] Jaelle Faerye: bye all

[14:30] herman Bergson: due to the greedy behavior of the bankers it brought our system almoast to a collapse and breakdown...

[14:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Jaelle

[14:30] Bejiita Imako: ok bye¨

[14:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): plus tard

[14:30] Vadaman: Bye

[14:30] Mick Nerido: Bye everyone

[14:30] llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found

[14:30] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Bye Mick

[14:30] herman Bergson: So we look for another morality

[14:31] herman Bergson: and other understanding of human nature....

[14:31] herman Bergson: an answer to the question....where does this greed come from?

[14:31] herman Bergson: was it the basis of our evolution?

[14:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I thought this course was going to be about Egoism?

[14:31] herman Bergson: or was cooperation the basis?

[14:32] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin....

[14:32] Birgie Breck: Neitzsche admired the ancient Greeks and was interested in their view of tragedy ... one way they dealt with it was to look toward what is ideal

[14:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): wb Lizzy

[14:32] herman Bergson: about the Art Not tobe an Egoist ^_^

[14:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ok Yes

[14:32] Birgie Breck: morality fits into the ideal

[14:32] Lizzy Pleides: ty :-)

[14:32] Birgie Breck: which also is an aspect of existentialism when you accept life as it is

[14:33] herman Bergson: Yes Birgie....

[14:33] herman Bergson: We are a constant stream of choices and judgements about what is good and bad, acceptable and unacceptable...

[14:33] herman Bergson: That is what we have to try to understand...

[14:33] herman Bergson: how does it work?

[14:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I put this pic on my FB... http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/550352_214622795336363_1154454781_n.jpg

[14:34] Birgie Breck: idealism is also an aspect of Christianity

[14:34] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): mayby the greed comes from the lack, created, among some social groups.. and the privation during war .

[14:34] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): as a neurosis

[14:35] Birgie Breck: in the painting at the back of the room, one greek philosopher in the center points heavenward (ideal to come)

[14:35] Birgie Breck: the other gestures that this world is all there is

[14:35] Birgie Breck: where is the ideal

[14:35] Birgie Breck: lived out

[14:36] herman Bergson: is it about an ideal life?

[14:36] Birgie Breck: I don't think so

[14:36] Birgie Breck: it is about accepting that life is not ideal... it is tragic

[14:36] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): maybe the ideal that having much, will last  and no lack would come anymore

[14:36] herman Bergson: We are part of evolution and what we try is to understand in what way we are

[14:37] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): but all new things last less and we become very dependent of less lasting thing

[14:37] herman Bergson: Well...I suggest that we'll wait and see how we get forward with this project ^_^

[14:38] Birgie Breck: we need a way to overcome the tragic...deal with it... idealism is one way

[14:38] herman Bergson: maybe it will bring a clearer view on morality and human nature...

[14:38] Alaya Chépaspourquoi (alaya.kumaki): tragico comic yeah

[14:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I need to go...excuse me Herman

[14:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or the usual..... more and more questions

[14:38] Bejiita Imako: ok cu Beertje

[14:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Beertje

[14:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye :))

[14:38] Shyne Hui: byee

[14:38] Vadaman: See you.

[14:38] herman Bergson: ok Beeertje.... ^_^

[14:39] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your pinterest and participation again today....

[14:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[14:39] herman Bergson: class dismissed :-))

[14:39] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[14:39] Lizzy Pleides: Thanks to you Herman!

[14:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hopes teh class is big for this project

14:39] Qwark Allen: ty

[14:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and all come next week

425: The Concluding lecture

The fact that standards are displaced by market forces, has significant impact on the economy. 

It makes the deployment of market mechanisms and free market theory  in many areas of the social life  doubtful. 

What should we think for example of financial incentives to encourage teachers to perform better in education, nurses in health care and other workplaces, 

or to volunteers in social life, in family life and other places where is important that people are intrinsically or morally motivated? 

"The" displacement effect " is perhaps one of the most important anomalies within the economy according to economists, because it seems to be at odds the most fundamental economic "law", 

namely that increasing financial stimulation increases supply . If the displacement effect exists, financial incentives even decreases the supply, for instance the willingness to help others, in stead that they increase the supply.

What economists slowly begin to understand is that there is a difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.

Oh sure, they know what it means: altruism is an inner (intrinsic) motivation to help your neighbor. The extrinsic motivation would be, when your neighbor asks you for help and offers you money.

Look, the later, THAT is economics, goods and services changing hand. Altruism is even a threat to the growth in economy.

For Ayn Rand altruism was almost a sign of mental disorder, a sign of weakness. In her opinion and in the opinion of many economists our social behavior is dominated by our preferences.

These preferences are very basic. They are material preferences. We are selfish, self-interested and that is why we act as we act.

All these other aspects of behavior which we call ethics, nice, really, but they have no meaning in an economic theory.

Like I said last Tuesday: Economic theory focuses on explaining how competitive markets work: how they curb the SELFISH INTERESTS of market participants 

by balancing them one against another in a way that results in the production of goods and services according to consumers' preferences and an efficient allocation of resources to their production. 

Economists believe that the commercialization of an activity does not change its character: money can never corrupt and non-market forces can never supplant non-commercial standards. 

People who want to buy or sell a commodity find it to their advantage, while people who find that the  value of such a  commodity can not be expressed in money just don't need to participate in such trade. What is wrong with that?

Who cares? If you want to donate blood voluntarily, because you see it as a social obligation to help you sick neighbor, please do so. Very noble.

Two weeks later you run into you fully recovered neighbor, who tells you with lots of delight, that he just got US$ 200 for selling blood to the Blood Bank.

Then you run into that second neighbor who also survived thanks to your donated blood. He doesn't look in too good shape 

and he tells you that he fortunately could make US$ 200 by selling blood to the Blood Bank. Means food for a week or so again.

And then there is that bill on your doormat: US $ 200. How stupid can a man be…………. ? Pretty stupid the economist says.

So you tell me….. who are we as human beings and by what standards do you like to organize our society? At least one observation: believe in the free market didn't work.

If you want to educate yourself, all inspiration for this project came from the book of Michael J. Sandel, "What Money can't by: The Moral Limits of Markets" (2012)

424: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism - The End

The standard economic theory assumes that goods and activities do not change character by  commercializing them or offering them for sale.

Think of human organs, the willingness to accept dangerous situations  like for instance stuntmen do, buying your entrance to a university, 

using your body for advertisement, collecting money for charity, selling and buying CO2 rights and so on.

Market transactions increase the economic efficiency, they say, without the merchandise in question is being changed.

That is why economists generally are sympathetic to the use of financial incentives to encourage desirable behavior.

The reasoning is that market transactions are to the advantage of the two parties involved, buyer and seller, without harming other parties.

At least, IF you assume that the market and the human attitudes which are cultivated by this process do not undermine the immaterial value of the exchanged merchandise. and exactly this assumption is questionable.

A simple example: a theater company organizes performances of a play of Shakespeare and distributes free tickets, so that everybody can attend a performance.

Some smart guys get hold of as much tickets as possible and because these performances are so popular, they have no problem selling the free tickets for big money.

Here an immaterial social value gets degraded and corrupted by making the tickets to merchandise.

Fred Hirsch (1931-January 1978) was Professor of International Studies at the University of Warwick. He was a senior adviser to the International Monetary Fund from 1966 to 1972 where he worked on international monetary problems.

In his book "Social Limits to Growth" (1976) he is one of the first who warns us, that standard economic theory does not take into account this "commercialization effect".

By that he means "the effect on the character of a product or service when it only or mainly  is provided through commercial way,

things as informal exchanges, mutual obligation, altruism and love (...) Generally and almost always implicitly it is believed that the process of commercialization has no influence on the product. "

And the effect on the character of the product was, that it changes the attitude of people and displace the immaterial values represented by or related to this good. when the market mechanisms are applied to the distribution of such a good,

Hirsch died shortly after publication of his book, which was publish just before Thatcher became Prime minister in the UK (1979 - 1990)  and Reagan(1981 - 1989) was elected president of the US.

They opened the floodgates for the free market and helped to ignore these observations. It is now, that we become aware of it.

Economic theory focuses on explaining how competitive markets work: how they curb the SELFISH INTERESTS of market participants 

by balancing them one against another in a way that results in the production of goods and services according to consumers' preferences and an efficient allocation of resources to their production. 

To make the argument simple, intelligible and convincing required a highly simplified model of the economy, 

that focused on the satisfaction of man's bodily needs and left out every obstacle, imperfection and complexity that could actually or potentially interfere with the market economy's perfect functioning.

In other words, economists created their own right theory by leaving out all other characteristics of human nature except selfish interest. 

It seemed to have worked till now. So finally work for philosophers again …..

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thank you Herman.

[13:24] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman

[13:24] Umae Ying: which other characteristics did they leave out

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:24] herman Bergson: actually all Umae...all our immaterial values...

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: everything but the money

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yourself is worth nothing only your wallet for those economists

[13:25] herman Bergson: like altruism, citizenship, social care, love and so on

[13:25] herman Bergson: the material mechanisms of economy were only driven by self-interest according to economists

[13:25] Mick Nerido: PBS is an example that commercial interests don't like...

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: if u have little money no one like u if u have money everyone does

[13:25] Umae Ying: they use those in advertising to attach those feelings to the products

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: thats no nice development

[13:26] herman Bergson: what is PBS Mick?

[13:26] Umae Ying: yes Mick

[13:26] Mick Nerido: Public brodcasting in USA

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): So how to distribute these soft items without corrupting them? Like social care, love, altruism?

[13:27] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example Debbie.....

[13:27] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands teachers get paid a fixed salary....

[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: everywhere i guess

[13:27] Mick Nerido: PBS is mor alturistic because the sponsors don't have compete control

[13:27] herman Bergson: a year or so ago someone seriously came up with the idea to give successful teachers in bonus..a financial reward!

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes. but in some places parents contribute extra

[13:28] herman Bergson: No that is a different issue....

[13:28] anneke13 Bailey is online.

[13:28] Kime Babenco: I need to relog... hold on

[13:28] herman Bergson: What upset a lot of people is that you become a teacher because of an intrinsic motivation

[13:28] Kime Babenco is offline.

[13:28] herman Bergson: ok Kime

[13:29] Kime Babenco is online.

[13:30] Umae Ying: i know teachers who do not have that motivation at all

[13:30] herman Bergson: Oh yes Umae...the world is full of bad people...

[13:30] herman Bergson: But I dont think that is the point....

[13:31] herman Bergson: welcome back Kime...

[13:31] Kime Babenco: Thanks

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: wb kime

[13:31] herman Bergson: Let me answer Debbie and Umae this way....

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: wb Kime

[13:31] Kime Babenco: Thanks

[13:31] herman Bergson: What economists totally have ignored is the existence of intrinsic and extrinsic motivation

[13:32] herman Bergson: extrinsic motivation is that you are wiling to do something if for instance someone pays you for it..

[13:32] herman Bergson: extrinsic

[13:33] herman Bergson: intrinsic motivation is your willingness to act because it comes straight from your heart...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Because it gives meaning to your life

[13:33] herman Bergson: oops...

[13:33] herman Bergson: did Debbie crash?

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I didn't do anything now...

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: as far as we are having a free will herman, we discussed that, ... i believe in intrinsic will too

[13:34] herman Bergson: to help someone because you feel that you have to is caused by intrinsic motivation...

[13:34] Kime Babenco: Everyone today?

[13:34] herman Bergson: social care, altruism, love....name it

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: economists only think there is extrinsic motivation

[13:35] Mick Nerido: Music art theater etc...

[13:35] herman Bergson: yes Mick..indeed

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): without Intrinsic the world is not a very nice place to be

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....

[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Beertje....

[13:36] herman Bergson: there wouldnt be idealists..

[13:36] herman Bergson: only well paid zealots

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: we would be kinda robots

[13:36] herman Bergson: It would mean that you can hire Green Peace for an action against slaughtering dolphins

[13:36] Kime Babenco: What do you mean with that ?

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: and buy friends

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Bejiita...

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: and that mean there is no human value anymore, everyone is just after the others money

[13:37] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:37] herman Bergson: so it is obvious that money can not buy everything...

[13:37] herman Bergson: or to say it in other words

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: u cant set a price on a life

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: but economists think that

[13:38] herman Bergson: money can not buy that what we need most

[13:38] Kime Babenco: But it can buy a lot ! Even justice mostly

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and thats also how the world mostly look

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Kime....that is true

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: poor people die unnoticed while the rich ones are protected by armed men ect

[13:38] herman Bergson: It doent buy justice but injustice...

[13:38] Wonny (wonda.masala) is online.

[13:39] herman Bergson: It corrupts justice

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: awful

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats not how it should be

[13:39] Kime Babenco: My grandparents told be one get harder punished for getting a chicken from a governators garden, than for killing a poor person

[13:40] herman Bergson: In some countries this is the case indeed Kime

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: just like i said above, poor people have no value, thats really nasty

[13:40] Umae Ying: the guy who robs a gas station gets a bigger sentence than nixon leaving office

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: very sad development

[13:41] herman Bergson: Is it a development Bejiita....

[13:41] herman Bergson: To simplify the problem....

[13:41] herman Bergson: The world is divided in rich and poor people

[13:41] herman Bergson: The rich have all power, the poor have no power

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:41] herman Bergson: but is this true...?

[13:42] Umae Ying: yes and no

[13:42] herman Bergson: smiles at Umae...

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: in many places it is

[13:42] herman Bergson: indeed Umae

[13:42] Umae Ying: if the poor would unite and vote together they could make a difference

[13:42] Umae Ying: but

[13:42] Kime Babenco: And what you will do to change that ? IF you can at all... because money knoows money and power knows power

[13:42] Umae Ying: they do not receive an education that enables them to sort some of those things our nor figure out how to organize

[13:43] Umae Ying: and they do not own the media like the rich do

[13:43] Lente (lentelies.anatine) is offline.

[13:43] Kime Babenco: Take a look to Russia, where Putin is on...

[13:43] herman Bergson: No...but yet..the rich are a minority...

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: then we belong to the rich part umae, don't we?

[13:43] Kime Babenco: Take a look at Venezela on the contrary maybe

[13:43] Kime Babenco: Venezuela*

[13:43] Umae Ying: rich is relative sometimes

[13:43] herman Bergson: Or Lybia, Egypt, Russian revolution..

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: even worse, look at syria, the protests failed and now the regime slaughters everyone

[13:44] herman Bergson: French revolution...

[13:44] Umae Ying: if you are alturistic…then you can take sides if you wish

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: their entire population

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: awful

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: i thought the people would have some chance against that regime but seems not

[13:44] Kime Babenco: Chavez did a lot for the poor people in Venezuela, which is appreciatable, but ruined the others

[13:44] Umae Ying: we are supposed to be able to vote...unlike them

[13:45] Kime Babenco: That kind doesn't work either

[13:45] Umae Ying: but corporations and big money now have full access ... FULL ACCESS to the propaganda ...in a way unprecedented

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: but our cote is nothing, the corporations have more power than the people

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: vote*

[13:46] Mick Nerido: Families are disfunctional, so is larger organizations...

[13:46] Umae Ying: we have believe in our vote... and fight the disenfranchisement of the "photo id's" etc

[13:46] herman Bergson: At least it may be clear that it is not a simple division between rich and poor from a historical perspective

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: i agree

[13:46] herman Bergson: It is not a law of nature that the rich always will keep their power

[13:47] herman Bergson: law

[13:47] herman Bergson: History has shown the opposite

[13:47] Kime Babenco: We are not divided into classes like in India . where from one class someone almost not can get up

[13:47] herman Bergson: And at this moment I think the rich within capitalism are scared...

[13:48] herman Bergson: they are exposed and their greed has become public...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): someone who is scared can do terrible things

[13:48] Kime Babenco: Great

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: like in Syria

[13:48] Umae Ying: yes

[13:49] Kime Babenco: Yes, as well

[13:49] herman Bergson: yes Beertje....they will think of tricks...to keep what they have...

[13:49] Mick Nerido: Power corrupts

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes

[13:49] herman Bergson: but they can not stop the ongoing debate

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:49] herman Bergson: the bear is loose...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:49] Qwark Allen is online.

[13:49] herman Bergson: capitalism is NOT the real solution...

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what is the real solution then?

[13:50] herman Bergson: as I showed in my lectures..the market even destroys what we think is valuable

[13:50] Kime Babenco: How much dictators find and easy old day , in peace when they leaved their country after making years of disaster ?

[13:50] Umae Ying whispers: the bear is paying their way into the senate and house...and on other levels too... they are just buying the laws (lawmakers) that protect them

[13:51] Umae Ying: campaign contributions super pacs and lobbyists

[13:51] herman Bergson: True Umae....

[13:51] herman Bergson: if the rich want Obama to stay president....he is reelected..basta

[13:51] Umae Ying: the rich want ronney

[13:52] herman Bergson: Really?

[13:52] Umae Ying: and his "free trade" etc

[13:52] herman Bergson: hmm that makes things interesting...

[13:52] herman Bergson: this would mean that when Obama wins the rich do not rule the world for 100%

[13:53] Umae Ying: i wouldn't go that far

[13:53] herman Bergson: which would confirm that we value more things than only money

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: that would be good for sure

[13:53] Kime Babenco: I heared the richest person from Europe wantes to move to another country..

[13:53] Kime Babenco: Only for payinglasss taxes

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: where there are no taxes

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: i dont get it, the more money u have the less u want to pay

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: its like scrooge Mc duck

[13:54] Umae Ying: romney has his money in the cayman islands and switzerland

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: and worse

[13:54] Umae Ying: no taxes on that part of his income

[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes isnt it remarkable Bejiita...!

[13:54] herman Bergson: Amazes me too

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: yes i don't get it

[13:54] Mick Nerido: true Obama is not as bad as Romney for the middle class

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: i mean what do u need that money for if u don't use it for anything

[13:54] herman Bergson: The higher incomes complain about taxes..never the lower ones :-)

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) is online.

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: guess its just brawling to the poor ones that they can go f""k themselves i guess

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: thats how they see them

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: really sad that is

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: we have all same value

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: money cant change that

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: like the rich ones think

[13:56] Kime Babenco: If you would earn 100 000 000 US$ a year, and you are not ready to pay 20 % taxes on it... There is a problem... I earn far less, but pay a higher %

[13:56] Mick Nerido: Insurance companies don't agree we all have same value.

[13:56] Gramps Mistwalker is offline.

[13:56] herman Bergson: well...

[13:57] herman Bergson: I am thinking about how to continue my lectures

[13:57] Anske Beattie is offline.

[13:57] Kime Babenco: ;-)

[13:57] herman Bergson: it can go two way....

[13:57] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:57] herman Bergson: one is the question...why is a human so wicked

[13:58] herman Bergson: or two...how can we stimulate nt to be a selfish person

[13:58] herman Bergson: on the one hand I am thinking of Mary Midgley's book "Wickedness"

[13:59] herman Bergson: and on the other hand I am thinking of Richard D. Pecht's book "The art not to be a selfish person"

[13:59] herman Bergson: art

[14:00] herman Bergson: so..

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think both are interesting lectures

[14:00] herman Bergson: thinking about it...

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: yes

[14:00] herman Bergson: yes Beertje ..that is my problem too ^_^

[14:00] Kime Babenco: I guess so

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so teach them one by one...

[14:00] Mick Nerido: two sides of the same coin

[14:00] herman Bergson: Yes MIck..

[14:01] herman Bergson: Eventually I will Beertje...

[14:01] herman Bergson: is just a matter..which one comes first :-)

[14:01] Kime Babenco: Sure,

[14:01] herman Bergson: I am studying on that :-))

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡ use a coin?

[14:01] Mick Nerido: flip a coin?

[14:01] herman Bergson: lol

[14:01] herman Bergson: maybe indeed

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[14:01] Umae Ying: which one is the better at defining what is wicked

[14:02] herman Bergson: dont know yet, Umae :-)

[14:02] herman Bergson: Working on it...

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: oki gotta move on

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): at least you have a coin..

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:02] Umae Ying: it would be good to understand what wicked is before you try not to be that

[14:02] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[14:02] Roto Diesel is online.

[14:02] herman Bergson: Thursday I want to conclude this series on the Aftermath of neoliberalism...

[14:02] jaynine Scarborough is online.

[14:03] Bejiita Imako: ah

[14:03] herman Bergson: Ohh poor Debbie!

[14:03] Mick Nerido: Iwill miss thursays class ":-(

[14:03] Kime Babenco: Maybe I can not come on Thursday and next week...

[14:03] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh dear ;(

[14:03] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again....

[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)

[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): I missed the whole thing ;)

[14:04] herman Bergson: Next week I take a vacation Kime...so you wont miss much :-)

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: aaaw

[14:04] Kime Babenco: If you can send it to me , would be nice

[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman - ill be missing the next 2 weeks - I am off on holiday ;)

[14:04] Bejiita Imako: the blog Debbie?

[14:04] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh - you to. Cool.

[14:05] herman Bergson: There always is th eblog...

[14:05] Debbie Dee (framdor): The blog it will be. Thanks for being organized Prof ;)

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: always useful as me too is rl busy sometime

[14:05] Kime Babenco: OK,

[14:05] Bejiita Imako: cu thursday

[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it was very interesting..thank you...have a goodnight

[14:06] Kime Babenco: Bye for now everyone

[14:06] Darks Adria is online.

[14:06] Debbie Dee (framdor): Bye Kime.

[14:06] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye:)

[14:06] Debbie Dee (framdor): By Herman

[14:06] herman Bergson: Bye everyone

[14:06] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^