431: The Art Not to be an Egoist 6

My previous lecture I ended with saying "With regard to  the current state of knowledge, what  should strengthen us on the assumption that our "bad" behavior comes from the animal kingdom, the "good", however, comes from the human culture?

When you look at the question from  a historical perspective, we can make a few interesting observations. 

The answer to the question whether  human nature is inherently good or bad relates strongly to political ideologies.

Hobbes' idea of the social contract was based in the conviction, that man as such was neither good nor bad, 

but that conflicting interests leads to a war of all against all.Therefor you need a strong government and in his opinion a king.

John Stuart Mill also saw the selfish nature of man, but he was milder. He believed that the conflicting interests would balance out.

Not because we are such brilliant beings, but because there always was an "invisible hand" that would guide the social processes. Of course he believed it was the hand of God.

Darwin too looked at man as an individual, trying to be the fittest, where being good or bad inherently, being a moral individual, was something typically human.

Huxeley was clear about it. Ethics is the product of culture and not an inherent feature of human nature. And all these ideas were perfect for a liberal point of view: it is the individual who has to make it.

But not everybody agreed to this individualistic approach around 1900. Survival of the fittest? OK, but how did that work? Do you survive as the fittest individual or as the fittest member of a group, this strengthening the group?

This was the the direction Pyotr Alexeyevich Kropotkin (1842 –  1921), a Russian zoologist, evolutionary theorist, philosopher, revolutionary, economist, writer, and one of the world's foremost anarcho-communists, was thinking.

In 1902 Kropotkin published the book "Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution", which provided an alternative view on animal and human survival, 

beyond the claims of interpersonal competition and natural hierarchy offered at the time by some "social Darwinists", such as Francis Galton.

He argued "that it was an evolutionary emphasis on cooperation instead of competition in the Darwinian sense that made for the success of species, including the human."

Kropotkin explored the widespread use of cooperation as a survival mechanism in human societies through their many stages, and animals. 

He used many real life examples in an attempt to show that the main factor in facilitating evolution is cooperation between individuals in free-associated societies and groups, without central control, authority or compulsion. 

This was in order to counteract the conception of fierce competition as the core of evolution, that provided a rationalization for the dominant political, economic and social theories of the time; and the prevalent interpretations of Darwinism. 

Kropotkin did not deny the presence of competitive urges in humans, but believed that they were not the driving force of history as capitalists and social Darwinists claimed.

What means Kropotkin to our question? Has his kind consideration of man as an inherently collaborative being maintained itself? What do the experts say about it at the present? 

Kropotkin's understanding of our animal and human ancestors had been limited perforce: some unearthed bones of prehistoric man, some unfortunate creatures of great apes in the London Zoo - 

on this  basis one  could only speculate about the nature of man. Do we still speculate or do we have real knowledge about human nature today?

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:22] herman Bergson: one message...

[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Hmm ... interesting question to end on

[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): yay herman - great topic.

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman

[13:22] herman Bergson: Next Thursday no class because of Thanksgivingday in the US

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: aaa ok

[13:22] herman Bergson: The floor is yours

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think moral values, and ethics are the cornerstones of co-operation

[13:23] herman Bergson: They are Debbie

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: sounds logical

[13:23] Oceane (oceane.madrigal): I see - would you see Kropotkin more as an antecedent sociobiologist?

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): we agree to not do bad to each other....

[13:23] herman Bergson: and in that sense Kropotkin was an interesting thinker

[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think cooperation is a result of evolution. It makes in the individual stronger.

[13:24] herman Bergson: He came up with counter arguments against the individualistic interpretation of evolution

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): All that Social Darwinism thinking makes me think (again) of Bees

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: my opinion is there is no contradiction between Darwin's and Kropotkin's theory and we are still speculating

[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): I thought of bees too.

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Nice name Kropotkin. Velvet, he argues that cooperation evolved too.?

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am currently reading Dawkins latest book, The Greatest Show on Earth

[13:25] herman Bergson: Ahh...

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): Kropotkin did?

[13:25] herman Bergson: canyou tell us about it merlin?

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): It is his attempt to convince people of the truth of evolution

[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:26] herman Bergson: well evolution is a fact I would say...

[13:26] Velvet (velvet.braham): It's odd that people have to be convinced.

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But he revisits his old ideas too

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): Is there any doubt about evolution?

[13:26] herman Bergson: yes indeed Velvet

[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:26] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): amazing

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well Debbie, apparently 40% in USA disbelieve in evolution

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes is a problem there ^_^

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: hmm eee ok

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): evangelicals

[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: but the reason is faith and not science

[13:27] Velvet (velvet.braham): Neil DeGrasse Tyson said, "the great thing about science is that it exists whether you believe in it or not."

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh my! thats alarming. They are creationists?

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: but there are so many ultra religious people in US

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: must be why

[13:28] herman Bergson: Nice quote Velvet!

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: mormons and stuff

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): Tyson is the man.

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i like that velvet

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): he downgraded Pluto from a planet, but I don't hold that against him.

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: science is the true fact

[13:28] herman Bergson: What Kropotkin adds to our discussion is that evolution is not just an individual thing...

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well Dawkins reminds us that ultimately it is the gene which seeks to survive and it does so by helping the animal to survive

[13:29] herman Bergson: but a group, a social thing...

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: I use to say,I believe in god when it have been scientifically proved hes been seen

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that he exists

[13:29] herman Bergson: that cooperation is the basis of the emergence of ethics,

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: same with ghosts

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): anyway, the idea that cooperation enhances human survival makes it an evolutionary force. and most of our recent evolution involves huge co-operative efforts - great works etc

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: when science can prove them i believe and i have myself never seen ghosts

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): or the other way, Herman. ethics is the result of cooperation.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Indeed Debbie

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): In nature there is very little co-operation

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: thats true for sure

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): Merlin, you were just mentioning bees.

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: heheh bees cooperate a lot as iI see

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Velvet You have got me there ;)

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): and pack animals

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): In nature - ants cooperate ....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: and make honey . YUKMY!

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:31] herman Bergson: Can you tell us something about Dawkins argumentation Merlin?

[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham) points at Bejiita

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think there is a great deal of cooperation in nature

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: me too

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): He gives the example of trees trying to outgrow each other....

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...next lecture will be about that topic

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): If they cooperated they need not be tall

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but they are not all tall

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is the canopy

[13:32] herman Bergson: But that is a kind of antropomorphism…of trees

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): and they don't think....as far as we know!

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and undergrowth

[13:32] herman Bergson: trees aren't social beings...

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and ground growth

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): you have to look out for others if you work in a cooperative, hence, ethics.

[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): they go together.

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Velvet...

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): So to sum up, our moral values are societal norms, to help us co-operate. How and why does the co-operation fail?

[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): lots of ways to fail!

[13:33] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): self interest above group interest?

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: when one in the team absolutely wanna do in another way conflicts arise

[13:33] herman Bergson: but the first question is..is ethics embedded in huma nature.....or is it nurture only...

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes bejita

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: pulls in the other direction

[13:34] herman Bergson: If you follow Kroptkins ideas..it IS human nature...

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but is it in ALL human beings?

[13:35] herman Bergson: So a conclusion could be that we are a peculiar mix of selfishness and altruism...

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think it would be useful to look also at apes

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): Its not just all humans - its all species ;)

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: well u gotta wonder since some people esp the greedy ones seem to completely lack both feelings and ethics

[13:35] herman Bergson: We'll do that in the next lecture Merlin ^_^

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ok

[13:35] herman Bergson: Well...

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): survival depends partially on co-operation - the strongest groups survive.

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: another example is psychopaths that have characteristics that unfortunately make them suited as directors etc

[13:36] herman Bergson: I get the impression you all got a clear idea now about where we stand in the debate

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: thats why the boss is often an arse

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: i guess

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Lol Bejita

[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: my boss is at least great and he can do barbecue like amazing

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): Debbie, I read a book about societal collapse you might find interesting

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: another YUMMY!

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): it's by Jared Diamond.

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh - I like him.

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): whats it called velvet?

[13:37] herman Bergson: What is that about Velvet?

[[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): It's called "Collapse:How Societies choose to fail or succeed"

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): ty. ill check it out.

[13:38] herman Bergson: The Rise and Fall of Rome ^_^

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): Rome is in the book

[13:38] herman Bergson: Why did that happen....

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): I read "Guns, germs and steel" a while ago ;)

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes...an interesting question...

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): Debbie, that's on my list of books to read

[13:39] herman Bergson: Ok....

[13:39] herman Bergson: plenty of reading to do till next Tuesday then ^_^

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): (Laughing out Loud) herman.

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no time

[13:39] herman Bergson: don't waist your time in SL....read ^_^

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: hahahaha

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we have plenty of time till next tuesday:)

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): We come to school here

[13:40] Vadaman: Hihi

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie..I do a lot of reading for you indeed :-))

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does a book of Stepehn King count too?

[13:40] herman Bergson: saves you a lot of time :-)

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hmmm NO lol

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): Beertje, King is always a good choice!

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): besides - where else do you get to discuss these ideas

[13:41] herman Bergson: Not quite a philosopher Beertje ^_^

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): smiles:))))

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hehee

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): we can argue that point, Herman

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): :)

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: the philosophy of horror maybe?

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): oooooh. I like it.

[13:41] herman Bergson: Well..

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: now THAT could be interesting subject

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes…it is interesting but not our subject at the moment

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hehe we take this one first

[13:42] herman Bergson: But you may discuss it of course after class...

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman you keep us on topic so well.

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes

[13:42] herman Bergson: So thnak you all agian for your participacion...^_^

[13:42] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...:-))

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): applause.....

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): thank you!

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: another interesting event

[13:43] Vadaman: Thank you for the lecture Herman.

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dankjewel Herman:)

[13:43] herman Bergson: My pleasure Vadaman

430: The Art Not tobe an Egoist 5

"One day is enough to determine that a person is evil; it takes a life to see that he is good." according to  Théodore Simon Jouffroy (1796 – 1842), a French philosopher. Harsh words !

Thomas Henry Huxley (1825 - 1895) claims that Man is an a-moral animal like all other living creatures. His natural interest is the struggle for life at all costs.

Only much later in evolution man "invented" morals. It is not an invention of nature but of culture. Nature and morality relate to each other in deep contradiction. 

In fact Huxley ran in a contradiction. His fundamental idea was that ALL human behavior was a product of nature, of evolution.

However in his lecture "Evolution and Ethics" he claims that moral ideas developed much later in evolution. As Huxley wrote himself"

"On the question of morality, I see no trace of nature. It is a product created exclusively by man".

How could he make such a mistake? One reason can be that Darwin himself wasn't clear about this issue himself.  On the one hand he too claims that all behavior is a product of evolution.

But on the other hand he claims that moral sentiments are "probably the best and most important difference between man and animal".

Thus the confusing situation arises, that on the one hand ALL behavior is a product of evolution, but on the other hand ethics is an exclusive product of man.

That this contradiction could exist is not surprising, because the general idea about man in those times was in sync with these ideas.

A man like Johann Gottfried Herder (1744 - 1803), a German poet and theologian, regarded human morality as a product of education.

He said: "Education for humanity is a work that should be pursued relentlessly, or we fall back to the raw animal nature, to brutality."

Are we really that bad? Can it really be the case that all behavior is said to be a product of evolution and then all of a sudden our moral behavior is a product of culture?

An outspoken opponent of these ideas is Frans de Waal, PhD (born 29 October 1948), a Dutch primatologist and ethologist.

The idea that human morality is represented as a thin crust, under which  the antisocial, amoral and selfish passions are bubbling, he called the 'Façade Theory'.

The famous ethologist Konrad Lorenz (1903 - 1989) was a supporter of this Façade Theory. He considers the human capacity for morality as natural, but he regarded it in relation to other animal-human behavior as inferior.

In light of such a theory selfishness, aggressiveness, hatred and murder are more "real" than caring, devotion, sympathy and love.

The older a property of man is, the more you can trace it in the world of reptiles or fish, he argues, the more powerful it is in determining the nature of man.

However, Lorenz, does not explain why older behavior patterns are more dominant than evolutionary more recent ones. Why should evolution have added later only weaker traits? In fact it may be the opposite. 

Michael T. Ghiselin (1939 - ),  an American biologist, and philosopher as well as historian of biology currently at the California Academy of Sciences wrote in 1974:

"Where it suits his own interests, a human being understandably supports his family. If he sees no other way, he is subordinate to the community. 

But give him a chance to live according to his own interests, there is nothing that prevent him from being violent, maim and kill  - his brother, his spouse, his parents or his children. Scratch an "altruists" and you see a hypocrite bleeding."

Harsh words! Ok, in situations of crisis we can be violent and aggressive, but why should this behavior be more "real human nature" than our other behavior?

With regard to  the current state of knowledge, what   should strengthen us  on the assumption that our "bad" behavior comes from the animal kingdom, the "good", however, comes from the human culture?

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you....^_^

[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): Interesting - thanks prof

[13:23] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well I like the comparison with other animals

[13:23] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:23] herman Bergson: The famous nature / nurture debate....^_^

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: hmm interesting for sure

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I agree with this.... Only much later in evolution man "invented" morals. It is not an invention of nature but of culture.

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But not with this bit.... Nature and morality relate to each other in deep contradiction.

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Lorenz makes a weak point. Evolution happens when the weaker traits perish. So the newer evolutionary steps are equally strong

[13:24] herman Bergson: Then you have a serious opponent in Frans de Waal Merlin

[13:24] Catt (catt.gable): is the argument that morals should be invalidated because they are an invention of man?

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes and he someone who studies animals too I think

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...but sad to say Lorenz was a nazi and that fits with the warrior idea of man

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: however that our basics are to kill each other and cause suffering, that seems strange

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: perhaps the question how much animal we are is a historical question because the evolution is going on

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): These human morals ..are they good?

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: cause a basic drive for us is to be social and feel good

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...of course...

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: really tricky this for sure how this works

[13:26] herman Bergson: we'll end up there of course

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): Moral values help us to co-exist as social animals

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: but u got to wonder, now there is total war in Palestine again

[13:26] herman Bergson: Moral values are the on sequence of us BEING social animals, I would say Debbie

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am not sure that morality serves any other purpose than practical co-existence and feeling good about ourselves.

[13:27] herman Bergson: That is beside the point Bejiita....that is present politics

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): And it is a recipe for species proliferation....

[13:27] herman Bergson: Sure moral ideas have a function....

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): we are very successful at keeping people alive. all 7 B

[13:28] Qwark Allen: lets see for how long

[13:28] herman Bergson: the question at the moment is...is it just a varnish or is it inherently human as a result of evolution

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): all 7B??...

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what do you mean?

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): billion

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I don't think morality follows from evolution

[13:29] herman Bergson: But our consciousness of good and bad does Merlin ???

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): So how did the commandments come about?

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hmm perhaps

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): they probably evolved ;)

[13:29] herman Bergson: You mean our consciousness is extra terestrial Merlin

[13:30] herman Bergson: From another source than evolution?

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh yes merlin.... I like that concept

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Dont forget that man has evolved very little in the last 200,000 years

[13:30] Qwark Allen: eheheh add there 200 000 more

[13:30] Qwark Allen: i`ll say half million years

[13:30] herman Bergson: what are you talking about if we talk about millions of years of evolution….?

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ok I wont argue with that

[13:31] herman Bergson: our most recent rise to consciousness is just 60.000 years old...

[13:31] herman Bergson: a wink of an eye in history

[13:31] Qwark Allen: remember, that never have been found a specie that links us in the evolution tree of darwin

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: when you drive a car you can see that we still have animal instinct

[13:32] Qwark Allen: so far is not proven that we are a fruit of evolution

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well, when did we start to have moral values? A recent new scientist article suggests it was when we started to perceive our mortality, and began to bury the dead.

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): OMG come on Quark :(

[13:32] Qwark Allen: natural, that is

[13:32] Qwark Allen: eheheh search about

[13:32] herman Bergson: Qwark...

[13:32] herman Bergson: it has never been proven that we come from elsewhere either :-)

[13:32] Qwark Allen: thats factual reality, about our specie

[13:33] Qwark Allen: we don`t know what are our ancestors

[13:33] herman Bergson: But all our chemistry belongs to this planet...that is proven

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There is a whole sequence of fossils which trace man's evlolution

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): qwark, you have the most amazing facts at your disposal.....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Points at the chart at the wall

[13:33] herman Bergson: I guess you overlook that picture Qwark

[13:33] Qwark Allen: thats a fact, but ... like most of creatures of this planet there isn`t a link for us

[13:34] herman Bergson: there is....

[13:34] Qwark Allen: its the missing link

[13:34] Qwark Allen: that is why it was named "the missing link"

[13:34] herman Bergson: our DNA differs only for 3% from a chimpansee

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): the missing link is the yetti ;)

[13:34] Qwark Allen: not 3% , 0.5%

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): Corect on the dna herman

[13:34] Qwark Allen: to be exact

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There is NO missing link, except that there are always inevitably gaps between all links

[13:35] Qwark Allen: you believe what you want to believe

[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Merlin...

[13:35] Qwark Allen: but the theory behind your truth, was not proven to our specie

[13:35] herman Bergson: So I would say....

[13:36] herman Bergson: there IS a strong relation between chimpanses / animals and us, naked apes :-)

[13:36] herman Bergson: That link is evident

[13:36] Qwark Allen: have in mind, that at a point there was 5 different species of hominides

[13:36] herman Bergson: oh yes...

[13:36] Qwark Allen: we are the last ones to survive

[13:36] herman Bergson: all these can be traced to by the DNA of all people...

[13:37] Qwark Allen: and we have genes from neanderthals

[13:37] herman Bergson: that is true Qwark :-)

[13:37] Qwark Allen: when we bread with them

[13:37] herman Bergson: We did our best not to make it, but so far we made it ^_^

[13:37] Qwark Allen: ^^

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: indeed ㋡

[13:37] Qwark Allen: we are terrible to other species

[13:38] herman Bergson: True ..and sometimes we still are Neanderthalers^_^

[13:38] herman Bergson: That is the whole point here

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:38] Qwark Allen: yes, was where i was getting in the end

[13:38] herman Bergson: We want to be good and we do bad (now and then)

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): were the Neanderthalers bad people with no morality?

[13:38] Qwark Allen: our instinct of survival is bigger then everything else

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): And we do bad, believing we are doing good sometimes.

[13:39] Qwark Allen: we are just more adaptive

[13:39] herman Bergson: You are right Beertje....I think they weren't

[13:39] Qwark Allen: they were good people like us

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): of course..they were people just you and me

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: no more like animals, just following instincts i think

[13:39] Qwark Allen: just not as well prepared for natural changes

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): just like you and me

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: dont know

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they have a bad name..and whatfore?

[13:39] Qwark Allen: ehheeh a bad name?

[13:40] herman Bergson: Jean Auel describes them in an interesting way....calling them the flatheads

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: neanderthals are amazing

[13:40] Qwark Allen: i have to say that Qwark, sounds much better then Neanderthal

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: haha well you use to call someone u dont like for F223ck846ng neanderthal!

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: heard many times

[13:40] Qwark Allen: but for a Neanderthal, i bet Qwark should sound awfull

[13:40] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:40] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hahahahahahaha

[13:40] herman Bergson: ^_^

[13:41] herman Bergson: OK...

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: loolo

[13:41] herman Bergson: so

[13:41] herman Bergson: our question is not yet fully answered...

[13:41] herman Bergson: is morals as much a product of evolution as all our other behavior

[13:42] herman Bergson: or is it just something we "invented" to stay alive in a social way?

[13:42] Qwark Allen: i think its a product of society living

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well I think I already gave my view

[13:42] Qwark Allen: you all remember that boy, that grew with animals

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: Tarzan?

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hahahahaha

[13:43] herman Bergson: Moglie?

[13:43] Qwark Allen: he was a good boy, but his morality for our standards, was, not the same

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Mowgli

[13:43] herman Bergson: Romulus and Remulus?

[13:43] Qwark Allen: was a true story

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aaa jungle book u mean?

[13:43] Qwark Allen: in the 20th century

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes think that might have been the case when i think of it

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: sounds familiar

[13:43] herman Bergson: But Qwark.....

[13:44] Qwark Allen: he was found with still adolescent

[13:44] herman Bergson: Was that boy able to care for someone?

[13:44] Vadaman: Romulus and Remus? Talking about killing your brother.

[13:44] herman Bergson: Love someone

[13:44] herman Bergson: KNow when someone was hurt or sad?

[13:44] Qwark Allen: that is the point

[13:44] herman Bergson: It is...

[13:44] Qwark Allen: society and education gives you the values to live on community

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he cared about his family..his animal family

[13:45] herman Bergson: Wolves and chimpansees do too Qwark

[13:45] Qwark Allen: yes, true, just not the same  ones, we have

[13:45] herman Bergson: the only difference is that only we are conscious of this fact

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are you sure Herman?

[13:45] Qwark Allen: we can have another example, of New Guinea, in the Pacific

[13:46] Qwark Allen: with the headhunters

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje..otherwise we never would have a debate on ethics

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:46] Qwark Allen: for us is morally wrong to kill someone and eat him

[13:46] herman Bergson: That is for headhunters too Qwark....

[13:46] Qwark Allen: in their culture was ok, cause they thought, the killed friend, was living inside them, after being ate

[13:47] herman Bergson: They only hunt their enemy....

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): an animal doesn't eat his own species as well qwark

[13:47] Qwark Allen: heeheh friends to

[13:47] herman Bergson: Some do Beertje...

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: beertje animals eat their own species

[13:47] herman Bergson: Most famous one is the Spider...the female one who eats her lover after a one night stand ^_^

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Cannibalism is biologically hazardous, for example the Mad Cow Disease episode

[13:47] Qwark Allen: hhehehe yes

[13:48] Qwark Allen: mad cow is related with a bug, a vibration

[13:48] herman Bergson: Indeed Merlin....

[13:48] Qwark Allen: not much about it, so far

[13:48] herman Bergson: was a creepy thing feeding cows 'meat'

[13:48] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: oh yes!

[13:48] Qwark Allen: infected with vibrations, food

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: prions i think its called

[13:49] Qwark Allen: yes that it

[13:50] Vadaman: When men are starving they eat other men.

[13:50] herman Bergson: Has happened indeed...

[13:50] Vadaman: Stalingrad.

[13:50] herman Bergson: I once mentioned the lifeboat incident here...

[13:50] herman Bergson: But ok....

[13:51] herman Bergson: maybe we might take a vote...

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Wasn't there a plane crash in the Andes too?

[13:51] herman Bergson: option A

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Or was that fiction?

[13:51] Vadaman: Rugbyteam

[13:51] herman Bergson: Morality is just a varnish created by culture

[13:51] herman Bergson: option B

[13:51] Lizzy Pleides: yes mwelin

[13:51] herman Bergson: Morality is the result of evolution which made us social beings

[13:52] herman Bergson: ok...what is your answer?

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sorry... I see Herman is trying to get us back on topic

[13:52] Qwark Allen: i think it depends on the level of survival need, according to the need at the reality

[13:52] herman Bergson: A or B

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): option B for me ;)

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): option a for me

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well it's A for me

[13:52] Qwark Allen: its A and B

[13:52] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:52] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: heheh

[13:53] herman Bergson: these are jsut three answers...you are 8!

[13:53] herman Bergson: A: 2 B:1 sofar

[13:53] herman Bergson: come on...!

[13:53] Qwark Allen: when we started to live in groups, morality evolved with it

[13:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): evolved = B

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hhm tricky but i say B, our base instinct cant be all evil

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: is A and B a contradiction?

[13:53] Vadaman: I hope B

[13:54] herman Bergson: smiles at Vadaman...

[13:54] Qwark Allen: its A also, cause to live in society makes it

[13:54] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: ok then i tend to B

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: and I for example have nothing of soul in me wouldn't be able to hurt some other person

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: or something similar

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: would feel so wrong to do

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: do you drive a car bejiita?

[13:55] herman Bergson: you are just well educated Bejiita ^_^

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: if it was A that wouldn't be correct on me

[13:55] Qwark Allen: its another adaptive tool we have to keep surviving in this planet

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hmm well that might be a thing too

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: its sooo tricky and complex all this

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am just trying to summarize that question:

option A

Morality is just a varnish created by culture

option B

Morality is the result of evolution which made us social beings

[13:56] herman Bergson: Yes it is Bejiita

[13:56] herman Bergson: OK Merlin

[13:56] herman Bergson: A = Nurture, B = Nature

[13:57] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yess

[13:57] herman Bergson: OK..I guess we need another lecture on this ^_^

[13:57] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:57] Debbie Dee (framdor): I guess so...

[13:57] herman Bergson: so...thank you all for your participation...:-))

[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: this is so exciting

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: really interesting it was for sure

[13:58] Qwark Allen: imagine tomorrow a flare hits earth, and all will be without electricity, then you`ll see the moral of our society

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thank you Herman - confusion reigns...

[13:58] herman Bergson: Then you should make a difference here Qwark...

[13:59] herman Bergson: Look at that situation in the short term and the long term

[13:59] Qwark Allen: short term chaos,

[13:59] Qwark Allen: long term, reorganization

[13:59] herman Bergson: In the short term worst of us will surface...but inthe long term...???

[14:00] Qwark Allen: yes, was what i said

[14:00] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Are we all refusing to leave?

[14:00] herman Bergson: But if we want to reorganize we need ethics....the differenc ebetween good and bad

[14:00] herman Bergson: lol Merlin

[14:00] Qwark Allen: that is why, i was saying, all depend on the level of survival need for the the time

[14:00] herman Bergson: SHould I eject you all then????lol

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[14:00] Qwark Allen: individual, or social

[14:00] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[14:01] Qwark Allen: just ten more minutes

[14:01] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[14:01] Qwark Allen: lol

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:01] herman Bergson: lol

[14:01] herman Bergson: Well the only thing of dismissing class is that I am no longer responsable for what happens after ^_^

[14:01] Debbie Dee (framdor): I've got to go.... bye all

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Herman

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ok cu Debbie

[14:02] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Debbie

[14:02] herman Bergson: ok Debbie...nice you were here

[14:02] Vadaman: Bye!

429: The Art Not to be an Egoist 4

Let's look at our present picture. We know the difference between good and bad and we all want to be good. This is because morality is part of human nature.

Thus we have to find out how morality is embedded in human nature. Plato, about 400 B.C., made us believe that there exists the Good, a something which is independent of human nature.

We only have to follow the right path, that of the virtues and away from lust, to acquire knowledge of the Good, which then can be the standard for the morality of our  actions.

But every religion and ideology claims to know what the Good is. However, they all have different opinions and besides that we discover soon enough that what is good for me, isn't necessarily also good for you.

Therefor Plato made a mistake. There does not exist a universal and independent Good. But should that force us to an absolute relativism? That's doesn't feel acceptable either.

Then let us look at the counterpart of good: evil. There happen bad things in our world, small and big ones. We all agree about that. So where does that come from?

"One day is enough to determine that a person is evil; it takes a life to see that he is good." according to 

Théodore Simon Jouffroy (6 July 1796 – 4 February 1842), a French philosopher. Harsh words !

So, maybe it is the case that we are basically bad, that what we call good and moral behavior is only a thin varnish, put over our true bestial nature by culture.

When we look at the history of philosophy then most philosophers are optimists in their assumption that man is inherently good.

The assumed champion of the idea, that man is by nature bad, is perhaps the philosopher, Thomas Hobbes (1588 - 1679) with his "homo homini lupus".

Words that weren't Hobbes at all, but a quote from the Roman comedy poet Plautus, who died 184 B.C.

In a condition which Hobbes calls the state of nature, which is the state when there is no government, 

each person would have a right, or license, to everything in the world. This, he argues, would lead to a "war of all against all" (bellum omnium contra omnes).

It is, however, a mistake to assume that Hobbes regarded man being a bestial creature, like a wolf. Not to mention that wolves actually are very social animals.

What he meant was that man as such is nothing, good nor bad. Good and Bad come into being through the actions of man.

Good is, what is in my interest and bad is what conflicts with my interests. As this is so for everybody, it will be a war of all against all unless we organize ourselves by a social contract.

So, we create evil, not because we are evil by nature but because of the eternal conflict of interests we experience among each other.

Let's look for another witness, who can testify that we are evil, animals, deep down inside. How about Thomas Henry Huxley (1825 - 1895), a supporter of Darwin's theory of evolution.

In 1893 Huxley held a lecture at Oxford University with the title "Evolution and Ethics". His point: Man is inherently bad.

Man is an a-moral animal like all other living creatures. His natural interest is the struggle for life at all costs.

Only much later in evolution man "invented" morals. It is not an invention of nature but of culture. Nature and morality relate to each other in deep contradiction. 

To be continues next Thursday…….

Thank you ^_^

The Discussion

[13:23] Daruma: ok;-)

[13:24] Framdor: Thanks Prof Herman - most stimulating as usual

[13:24] herman Bergson: The floor is yours...

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you professor! Brilliant!

[13:24] Daruma: but isnt evil also created in a society?

[13:24] Daruma: not only by one person?

[13:24] herman Bergson: We are society Daruma

[13:24] Daruma: yes, but it sounds

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes collective evil...

[13:24] Mick Nerido: I don't think culture and nature are in contradiction...

[13:25] Daruma: that only one person is creating the evil for himself alone

[13:25] herman Bergson: like soldiers at war acting collectively

[13:25] Daruma: or the good

[13:25] WhiteCityKitty: good and evil dwell in each of us and it is our choice moment by moment which to choose.

[13:25] Daruma: thats right kitty

[13:25] Daruma: but as herman said

[13:25] Daruma: good and evil is different to each person^^

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes that may be so White...but when and why do we choose?

[13:26] Framdor: We need a sense of meaning in this world. The social contracts ensure that we can act out our lives against a backdrop of society.

[13:26] herman Bergson: The answer to that question answers our question of today

[13:26] Framdor: within the contracts, good and bad are easily judged

[13:26] WhiteCityKitty: in order to choose, we must find our 'watcher' and from there be guided by the source and not the ego.

[13:26] herman Bergson: are we just animals with a thin varnish of morality

[13:26] Daruma: thats my opinion also, herman;-)

[13:27] WhiteCityKitty: morality comes from lessons learned by mistakes

[13:27] Mick Nerido: we are animals with the chance to choose good or evil...

[13:27] Daruma: when we loose food, safety and electricity i guess

[13:27] Daruma: we all turn into beasts^

[13:27] herman Bergson: The idea IS tempting Daruma....

[13:27] Framdor: Morality comes from fitting into your social environment.

[13:27] herman Bergson: I was shock years ago by the war in Yugoslavia….

[13:28] Daruma: and i gues most ppl do not think about their acting in society

[13:28] herman Bergson: It was a country where we went on vacation....etc...

[13:28] herman Bergson: and all of a sudden such bestialities, mass murders, concentration camps

[13:28] Daruma: they do not know what they do and how society is reacting to them

[13:28] Daruma: or better why others act as they act to them

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: there's a group dynamic behavior too

[13:29] Daruma: no self reflection i mean

[13:29] herman Bergson: So Framdor..is morality a product of culture?

[13:29] Mick Nerido: culture is like rule of the game without it we don't play well together

[13:29] Framdor: Yes. bad things happen when the social contracts are broken.

[13:30] WhiteCityKitty: morality is not a product of only culture

[13:30] herman Bergson: So you believe that we are inherently evil, Framdor...

[13:30] Framdor: and to fit into a society, you need to adopt the moral rules.

[13:30] WhiteCityKitty: it also is a product of our personal development over time

[13:30] Framdor: Like don't kill each other.

[13:30] WhiteCityKitty: it can be against culture

[13:30] WhiteCityKitty: culture is not what we should follow

[13:31] Framdor: I agree that morals are also formed at an individual level.

[13:31] WhiteCityKitty: our hearts and intuition tell us what is right and what is wrong.

[13:31] WhiteCityKitty: and sometimes that doesn't agree with culture.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes but the question is….aren't they a pert of our nature?

[13:31] Framdor: I speak of society. the process of living together in a small world

[13:31] herman Bergson: Was Huxley right or not?

[13:31] Daruma: i guess it has to be a balance between good and bad

[13:31] Mick Nerido: yes we are part of nature...

[13:32] Daruma: nothing can live without the other side

[13:32] WhiteCityKitty: posititve and negative are always present in each moment

[13:32] Daruma: where is light, there also a shadow is

[13:32] Daruma: true kitty

[13:32] WhiteCityKitty: they remain in balance

[13:32] Mick Nerido: We are heard animals, we need each other to survive

[13:32] Framdor: Huxly was wrong. man is not inherently bad.

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: we are a part of the nature but our intelligence allowed it to cultivate it

[13:33] WhiteCityKitty: and lust is not evil

[13:33] Daruma: as birth is important but also death

[13:33] Framdor: Sometimes we are very misguided.

[13:33] herman Bergson: You are all good today ...

[13:33] Framdor: But overall we are a kind and long suffering species.

[13:33] herman Bergson: good remarks!

[13:33] Daruma: ;-)

[13:33] herman Bergson: Let's continue on Thursday..

[13:33] WhiteCityKitty: but...

[13:34] Mick Nerido: a week from thursday?

[13:34] WhiteCityKitty: :)

[13:34] Daruma: oh next time i will be here in 2 weeks;-(

[13:34] herman Bergson: and yes Debbie I agree..the idea of Huxlley is very questionable

[13:34] Framdor: ;)

[13:34] herman Bergson: So..

[13:34] Framdor: I like to try and see the best in people all the time.

[13:34] herman Bergson: thank you all for your participation again....

[13:34] Daruma: yw herman

[13:34] Framdor: and mostly I find the best people ....

[13:35] WhiteCityKitty: you can the best in ppl only if you already love yourself.

[13:35] Mick Nerido: Thanks, Herman!

[13:35] WhiteCityKitty: then you will find no judgment in another becasue you find no judgment against yourself.

[13:35] herman Bergson: It is there Debbie, but you have to keep an sharp eye on things :-)

[13:35] herman Bergson: laughs..

[13:35] Framdor:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:35] herman Bergson: what do I say...is man evil yet?

[13:35] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:35] Framdor: I think I'm off to bed.

[13:35] herman Bergson: ok....

[13:36] Framdor: cu all on thursday

[13:36] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:36] Daruma: so see u soon. and thank u for the lesson!

[13:36] herman Bergson: You were really inspiring again today

[13:36] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman

[13:36] Framdor: great lecture thanks herman... night all.

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: good night Herman

[13:37] Beertje Beaumont: goodnight

[13:37] Merlin Saxondale: Bye everyone

[13:37] herman Bergson: Bye