493: Chinese Otherness

So far I have pointed at apparent similarities between Chinese and our philosophy and ideas. But what about that Chinese otherness? Do our philosophical concepts apply to Chinese philosophy?

The most familiar associations of the word Chinese in our popular discourse are "puzzling," "confusing".  In Dutch we use to say "This is Chinese to me"  to tell that you don't understand at all what is explained, for instance.

I found an interesting chapter in "From Africa to Zen" by David Hall and Roger Adams (2003) with a fascinating explanation of the otherness of Chinese thinking.

"Late in the evening of june 4, 1989, government tanks rolled into Beijing's Tiananmen Square, the symbolic center of China, to clear the square of protesters.

The news media have provided vivid accounts of events apparently similar to the Tiananmen incident: protesters with placards and loudspeakers 

exhorting liberal reforms and proclaiming certain victory for their cause; soldiers, in helmets and khaki uniforms, firing upon their fellow citizens. 

Were we to look at Tiananmen through Chinese eyes, however, would we really see an event explicable in the terms used to explain student protests in our own country 

or, for that matter, the broader acts of governmental violence in the Middle East, South Africa, or Eastern Europe? Instinctively, we believe that pain and the brutality that causes it are the same around the globe.

But how are we to interpret the incident at Tiananmen as a democratic revolt if in our democracy there is  a prevailing conception of personhood that entails natural rights, free choice, independence, autonomy, and so on, 

while in China such values, far from being self-evident and normative, have traditionally been regarded by even the sagest Chinese as sociopathic?"

The Chinese, then, may look different to us. If you knew how they thought / think about us?! Barbaric, clumsy, tactless and vulgar. Westerners even got the nickname "foreign devil".

A popular saying in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries captured this impression of the intruding foreigner as unmannered and graceless: 

"The sage fears nothing in this world. save for one thing only: the foreign devil attempting to speak Chinese."

It hasn't been always this way. When the jesuit Matteo Ricci (1551 - 1610) came to China, he found there, according to his reports, a humane and eminently civilized people.

Individuals such as Leibniz (1646 -1716) and Voltaire (1694 - 1778) often proclaimed the knowledge and virtues of the Chinese to be superior to those of Europeans.

It was Leibniz himself who discovered the binary structure of the Yi Ching hexagrams. But it was Hegel (1770 - 1831), who came up with an unsympathetic interpretation of Chinese civilization.

At the time of the Industrial revolution, when Europe and America marched under the banner of scientific and industrial progress, the evaluation of Chinese culture was described in terms like inert, backward-looking and dying.

Or  take this: "The Chinese are naturally conservative because their written language is rigid and inflexible, rendering the task of forming new words extremely difficult.  

And the people  who are hampered in forming new words are also hampered in their conception of new ideas and the discovery of new truths." ("Chinese Philosophy" by dr. P. Carus. 1902)

Things like Maoism since 1949 and The Cultural revolution, haven't contributed to a more positive opinion about Chinese civilization.

The religious writer Gerald Heard (1889 - 1971) once characterized the civilizations of Europe, India, and China in terms of a fundamental question presumably asked by the thinkers and seers of each tradition. 

For the European that question was "Where am I?" Curiosity about the nature of the external world led to the development of the natural and social sciences. 

Indians asked the question "Who am I?" and as a consequence discovered subtle techniques of spiritual self-examination and articulation. 

The Chinese asked the question "What am!?" This question was answered in terms of rituals and roles establishing the parameters of one's identity as a social being.

To  be continues….

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: T….  Thank you... :-)

[13:18] Ada Zaurak: ty, Herman

[13:18] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:18] Corronach: :)

[13:18] herman Bergson: Guess your brains are milling all info :-)

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: hmm that was something indeed

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:19] Corronach: Bejiita will start us off. :)

[13:19] herman Bergson: The most important point is....

[13:20] herman Bergson: in 1984 a Chinese student said "We need mere democracy,tho I don't know what it is..."

[13:20] herman Bergson: The thing is....there is no word for democracy in Chinese....not a word that expresses the same concept as how we understand democracy

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: cause they have never experienced anything like that or?

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:21] Ada Zaurak: what about Hongkong and Taiwan?

[13:21] herman Bergson: It was never present in their frame of mind Bejiita....

[13:21] Ada Zaurak: and 1984 is 30 years ago, and world and china especially is transforming in highspeed

[13:21] herman Bergson: Hongkong, Taiwan....?

[13:22] herman Bergson: Hongkong is british...well was...

[13:22] Ada Zaurak: yes

[13:22] herman Bergson: Yes Ada...and that is the big problem.....

[13:22] Ada Zaurak: what influences has the history of Hongkong and the 10.000.000 ppl there to the rest of china?

[13:22] herman Bergson: I talked about that in my previous lecture....

[13:23] Ada Zaurak: i'm sorry when i bring old Kamellen into the discussion ,-)

[13:24] herman Bergson: The problem is that the conceptual world of Chinese thinking is largely formed by Confucianism and Daoism....

[13:24] herman Bergson: It means...they look in a different way at reality...

[13:25] herman Bergson: some Chines scholar once said...

[13:25] herman Bergson: the reason why China never developed  biology or zoology is

[13:25] herman Bergson: because...when a Chinese sees a fish he first thinks of how it will taste

[13:26] herman Bergson: he can't look at it in the emotionless way like westerners do

[13:26] herman Bergson: You could say.....

[13:26] herman Bergson: we can make nature an OBJECT of study....emotionless, rational....

[13:27] herman Bergson: A Chinese is first one with nature...from a daoist point of view for instance

[13:28] herman Bergson: Thus Chinese lack a lot of concepts we use and visa versa...

[13:28] herman Bergson: But yet they are integrating at high speed our consumerism into their society...

[13:29] herman Bergson: And that leads to huge corruption.....to begin with

[13:30] herman Bergson: Maybe this is a bit too much for you? :-)

[13:30] Ada Zaurak: corruption in the meaning of political corruption?

[13:31] herman Bergson: corruption in the meaning of making money based on for instance your position

[13:31] Mikki Louise: what are they missing that leads to the corruption? Italy also has much corruption.. Russia too... another society embracing consumerism

[13:31] herman Bergson: Russia has amazed me greatly....

[13:32] herman Bergson: When the communist system collapsed ...in no time there was a well organized maffia

[13:32] herman Bergson: that is one thing....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Basically you can say that corruption doesn't occur when people have strong moral standards....

[13:33] herman Bergson: with respect to honesty, justice, fairness and values like that

[13:34] Roo: good morning all

[13:34] Mikki Louise: but most societies have a group that leans towards corrupt practice as a means to do business .. just as most societies have a form of fried bread

[13:34] herman Bergson: So when a society is corrupt these moral standards seem to be absent

[13:34] herman Bergson: not present

[13:34] Mikki Louise: there are commonalities despite our different teachings

[13:34] Ada Zaurak: but also when there is the absence of poverty

[13:35] Ada Zaurak: as more poverty as more corruption

[13:35] herman Bergson: there are many explanations for the presence of corruption in a society....

[13:36] Ada Zaurak: yes

[13:36] herman Bergson: I don't think there is just one with respect to the causes...

[13:36] herman Bergson: except the fact that people don't seem to value certain moral values

[13:37] herman Bergson: even some primates have a sense of fairness.....sharing equally for instance....

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: so basically Chinese are all egoistic?

[13:37] herman Bergson: morality IS part of our system....but greed is too unfortunately :-)

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thinking for themselves only

[13:37] Roo: Egocentric is the word you mean

[13:37] herman Bergson: No, you can't say that bejiita....

[13:37] Roo: to write

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: i heard at work that they build whole cities that no one can afford to live in so they just stand empty like ghost towns

[13:38] herman Bergson: but the consumerism which is new to china can make a lot of people weak....

[13:38] herman Bergson: Why can't I have what my neighbor has?

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:39] herman Bergson: That is true.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: Just to fake that the economy is growing...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: thats a real waste i d say

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: build stuff for nothing

[13:39] .: Beertje :.: herman Bergson: Why can't I have what my neighbor has?..sounds childish to me

[13:39] herman Bergson: It will be come an increasing problem for the future Bejiita....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: indeed, can imagine

[13:40] Mikki Louise: they would call it speculation... eventually the population will grow, the demand will be there..so build now while it is cheap

[13:40] herman Bergson: You mean, Beertje, that you don't want  a car too like your neighbor....? He has the same job as you have for instance

[13:41] .: Beertje :.: i don't need a car like my neighbour has

[13:41] herman Bergson: Big problem it that the population doesn't grow Mikki...they still have the one child policy

[13:42] herman Bergson: No not you Beertje....but many look at others...our children already do so...

[13:42] herman Bergson: they want NIKE shoes too like their friends in class

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: and an iphone

[13:42] .: Beertje :.: lol Bejiita

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: cause all others have too

[13:42] herman Bergson: oh yes....at least an iPhone

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: thats how it works these days indeed

[13:43] .: Beertje :.: hmm

[13:43] .: Beertje :.: why?

[13:43] herman Bergson: We are destroying ourselves slowly with our consumerism....China is just beginning to discover this way of life

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: not good if escalating out of control though

[13:44] herman Bergson: It adopts the technological and economical infrastructure...

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: buy- throw away, buy new - throw away ect.

[13:45] herman Bergson: but it lacks the  underlying conceptual structure of western individualism

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: you need those concepts too i guess

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: to make it manageable

[13:46] .: Beertje :.: we are destroying our earth if we and all the Chinese keep thinking like that

[13:46] herman Bergson: This is why Xi Jinping is looking at religions as some kind of incentive for moral behavior

[13:46] Ada Zaurak: hmmm, is anything here in western world manageable?

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...THAT is the present horror scenario....

[13:47] .: Beertje :..: Beertje :. that is why I don't need what my neighbour has..I have enough already

[13:47] Roo: is it fair to criticize all Chinese generically?

[13:47] Ada Zaurak: we see a perverted financial industry in Wall Street and city of London, we see collabsing traffic in big cities, ppl eat shit and get fat ...

[13:48] herman Bergson: no..neither is it fair to criticize all Western economists....

[13:48] Roo: true true

[13:48] herman Bergson: There ARE people who fight against this endless abusing of earthly resources....

[13:48] herman Bergson: in many ways....

[13:48] Roo: indeed

[13:49] herman Bergson: but they are not the majority.....

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: indeed, some go with and some go against, its a balance act sort of

[13:49] herman Bergson: There is no balance there Bekiita..I wish it was....

[13:49] herman Bergson: All economists KNOW that infinite growth is an absurd idea...

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: ah, yes that can never work, says itself

[13:50] herman Bergson: but they are tied up with so many interests..status...position....that they can't just leave their way of thinking behind

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: better get to a good level and hold it there instead of try get more and more all time

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: after a while it will collapse

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: cause there is no more to get

[13:51] .: Beertje :.: what is a good level?

[13:51] herman Bergson: There we go, Beertje....:-))

[13:51] Roo: and who is it that determines just exactly "what is good" ??

[13:51] herman Bergson: and another one :-))

[13:52] herman Bergson: Well...you see....it is not just a simple issue here at stake....

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: good question but many companies even they do well shut down factories cause they want to get even more by making it cheaper somewhere else

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: for ex in sweden Adidas shut the JOFA plant making hockey equipment for very long here even they did well

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: cause Adidas wanted growth

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita..... one final remark here...bit off topic but something to think about

[13:53] herman Bergson: Lately there was a short article in my newspaper...

[13:53] herman Bergson: The headline said... Philips wants to do its shareholders a favor....

[13:54] herman Bergson: What was Philips planning to do...?

[13:54] herman Bergson: It had planned to buy its own stocks so that there would be less, so got maore value for shareholders...

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: when a company is growing the shareholders often get a lot of share, but of the growth stops they get nothing

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: thats how i see it working

[13:55] herman Bergson: and it would accomplish that goal by kicking out 1500 people and cancel their jobs.

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: to produce it cheaper in another place

[13:55] Ada Zaurak: alhamdillulah

[13:55] herman Bergson: What is the function and role of a company in our society?

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: the Jofa factories work is now all made in china where it cost less = more money to the shareholders

[13:56] herman Bergson: We are far away from China now, but it will have to face this question tooo in its future....

[13:56] herman Bergson: Maybe its conceptual system comes up with better answers than ours....

[13:57] Ada Zaurak: its to simple

[13:57] herman Bergson: May I thank you for your vivid participation again....:-)

[13:57] Ada Zaurak: our systems had more facets

[13:57] herman Bergson: We'll continue our quest next Tuesday :-))

[13:57] Ada Zaurak: there were different ideas about how companies should act

[13:57] Ada Zaurak: ok

[13:58] herman Bergson: Thank you all

[13:58] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:58] .: Beertje :.: maybe they can stop the whole process and prevent all the problems we have

[13:58] Corronach: Thanks herman

[13:58] Ada Zaurak: ty, Herman

[13:58] .: Beertje :.: oops...too late:)

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: what i think was really tragic about JOFA is people been working there all their lives was just showed out without any new job

[13:58] herman Bergson: We'll get to that idea in the next lecture Beertje

[13:58] .: Beertje :.: ㋡

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:59] Ada Zaurak: bye folks

[13:59] Mikki Louise: ty herman and classmates

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:59] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[13:59] herman Bergson: Bye Mikki, Bejiita :-)

[14:00] Mikki Louise: ㋡

492: Daoism continued some more...

In my previous lecture I told you that a google search on Daoism generated more than 3.5 million hits. So, you may conclude that there still is a lot of information about it.

Yet the history of Daoism is eventually not that positive. Around 1400 Daoism reached its zenith. It became a mix of Confucianis, Buddhism and Daoism.

Around 1849 Daoist and Buddhist temples were destroyed by followers of a strange version of Chinese christianity. The Cultural Revolution (1966-1976) attempted to complete the destruction of Daoism. Daoist Masters were killed or “re-educated.”

But this morning there was an interesting article in my newspaper, which shows again that it is worthwhile to immerse in philosophy.

Let me quote Anne Meijdam, China correspondent of "De Volkskrant", one of the Dutch national newspapers. The headline is: "Xi Jinping points at religion as binder against moral decline.

China has lost its soul and to regain it traditional religions should get more space. Chinese President Xi Jinping would behind the scenes advocate this. 

Xi is worried about the decades of moral decline of the Chinese society, under the influence of the booming Chinese economy.

The rapid economic progress in China is associated with an obsession for a lot of money and material prosperity. President Xi Jinping hopes that Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism could offer the Chinese people moral benchmarks again.

Between 2008 and 2012 approximately 145 thousand officials  were condemned for corruption - an average of 78 convictions a day, according to a report from the Chinese Supreme Court. 

Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism provide the poor part of the people a possible comfort. The lower classes of Chinese society hardly shared in the economic progress. Beijing is afraid of large scale riots. Xi would hope that religion  can function as lightning conductor.

Xi is not the first communist leader who shows an  interest in religion. Former President Jiang Zemin is even said to be a real Buddhists. 

Under apparently the watchful eye of his successor Hu Jintao Confucianism rapidly gained more popularity. That process was until the arrival of Xi subtly promoted, just to fill China's moral vacuum. - END QUOTE

Although there are some shared views in Daoism and Confucianism, like the concept of self-cultivation and this-worldly concern for the concrete details of life, there are big differences.

There is a metaphore. Give a daoist and a confucianist a piece of wood and ask them to make a sculpture of man. 

The daoist would give you back the piece wood, untouched, that is, in tis natural state.The confucianist would give you a piece of wood that is all carved and polished, a real sculpture.

One of the most fundamental teachings of Dao De Jing is that human discriminations, such as in morality (good, bad) and aesthetics (beauty, ugly) generate the troubles and problems of existence 

The clear implication is that the person following the dao must cease ordering his life according to human-made distinctions.

So, it is best to practice wu-wei (non action) in all endeavors, to act naturally and not willfully try to oppose or tamper with how reality is moving.

Confucius and his followers, however, wanted to change the world and be proactive in setting things straight. They wanted to tamper, orchestrate, plan, educate, develop, and propose solutions.

Confucians think they can engineer reality, understand it, name it, control it. The daoist believes the Confucians create a gulf between humans and nature, that weakens and destroys us.

We'll see which of the two philosophies / religions will be the best lightning conductor for China.

The Discussion

[13:15] herman Bergson: Thank you...:-))

[13:15] Nectanebus claps

[13:15] Nectanebus: Nice jokes at the end there ;)

[13:15] Abinoam Nørgaard: wonderful

[13:15] Daruma Boa claps

[13:16] herman Bergson: the floor is yours ...:-)

[13:16] Bejiita Imako: yay

[13:16] Nectanebus: Wow, where to begin?

[13:16] Daruma Boa: anywhere^^

[13:16] Abinoam Nørgaard: a quick question, because i missed the previous session. you've been referring to daoism as a religion now. what makes it a religious, as opposed to purely philosophical system?

[13:16] .: Beertje :.: does wu-wei lead to anything?

[13:16] .: Beertje :.: anything?

[13:17] herman Bergson: Oh that is easy to see Abi.....

[13:17] herman Bergson: Daoism had developed into an institutionalized religion around 1400...with temples, rituals, belief in magic and alchemy etc.

[13:18] Abinoam Nørgaard: oh, i see. and people still practice those?

[13:18] Nectanebus: For sure

[13:18] herman Bergson: yes...Tai Chi and the theory of yin/yang are related to daoism

[13:18] Abinoam Nørgaard: right. thanks for the answer

[13:19] Nectanebus: All Wudang styles come from Daoist teachings

[13:19] Nectanebus: As opposed ot Shaolin, which is Buddhist

[13:19] Abinoam Nørgaard: i see, wow

[13:19] herman Bergson: It is philosophically interesting from the perpective how it answers ethical questions

[13:19] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:19] herman Bergson: Does wu-wei lead to anything....?

[13:20] herman Bergson: It does  not mean that you should do nothing....

[13:20] Daruma Boa: i think everything leads to anything

[13:20] xtc yonimyxtc: the poor of china are going to riot whatever religion or philosophy the chinese leaders allow.

[13:20] herman Bergson: yes Daruma it is impossible to do nothing....

[13:20] Daruma Boa: sure herman^^^

[13:20] herman Bergson: That might happen indeed

[13:20] herman Bergson: But this wu-wei idea....

[13:20] Nectanebus: Wu-wei is more to act without intent towards a result, to "go with the flow" entirely regardless of ones own inclinations.

[13:21] Nectanebus: In a sense

[13:21] herman Bergson: it is a kind of attitude towards nature....

[13:21] .: Beertje :.: ah

[13:21] herman Bergson: Don't ask me how to act "natural" in stead of artificial....

[13:22] Nectanebus: haha

[13:22] herman Bergson: Such ideas or actually beliefs what is the natural way of being....I don't know how to interpret that

[13:22] herman Bergson: Do we have to abandon culture and live like the chimpansees or something like that

[13:23] Nectanebus: I'm worried about the reasonings behind China's need for yet more control when they've already go no rights for animals, people, or the environment, but that's more political than philosophical. I think that Confucianism is likely to win out considering the populace, though.

[13:23] herman Bergson: I really don't know how people can have knowledge of the "natural state" of man.

[13:23] Abinoam Nørgaard nods

[13:23] Corronach: i don't think we can survive without a degree of structure, which may seem "unnatural"

[13:24] herman Bergson: that Is my idea too Nectanebus...

[13:24] Corronach whispers: unless it is considered natural that we seek a structure :)

[13:24] Abinoam Nørgaard: for us as humans it is natural

[13:24] Daruma Boa: nature is structure

[13:24] herman Bergson: that is the point Corronach :-)

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:25] Daruma Boa: ah?

[13:25] Nectanebus: That's an interesting one. I wouldn't say structure itself is a non-Daoist thing, but the idea of being able to rely on it in extremis may well be a phallacy. Look at any legal system, for example. It'd probably be more Daoist to take everything "as it comes" in a courtroom, and more Confucian to allow no through for the individual outside of the law.

[13:25] Abinoam Nørgaard: lol

[13:25] herman Bergsonherman Bergson smiles

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: really interesting for sure

[13:26] Loo Zeta-Ah: Christianity is increasing in China also... i wonder if Eastern religions/philosophies are increasing in Western society sequentialiy

[13:26] Nectanebus: fallacy*, talk about a Freudian slip...

[13:26] Nectanebus: Yes, Loo, the 60s certainly happened, haha

[13:26] xtc yonimyxtc: the sooner cultures meld the better off the world will be.

[13:26] Loo Zeta-Ah: Due to gobalisation and communication

[13:26] Abinoam Nørgaard: indeed

[13:26] Nectanebus: If we meld coherently instead of segregate within the same tower block

[13:27] herman Bergson: I don't see in increase of eastern religions in the West...

[13:27] herman Bergson: It was popular in the 60s indeed....

[13:27] xtc yonimyxtc: i do not see an increase of eastern religions in the west

[13:27] Daruma Boa: but the 60s are gone

[13:27] Abinoam Nørgaard: buddhism seems to be on the grow, i think

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:27] herman Bergson: but as I said...daoism....3.5 million hits in Google...

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:28] Loo Zeta-Ah: <--- failed="" font="" hippy="">

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: tried and i get something around that indeed

[13:28] herman Bergson: So ..people are interested, I guess

[13:28] herman Bergson: But there is a difference....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: must be something at least

[13:28] Nectanebus: I think there's an increase of Atheism in the west, and the small amount of learning people did in the 60s just got absorbed into "New Age" thought, so now people think Tantra is sexual...I don't trust the West to appreciate outside cultures as anything more than a novelty

[13:28] herman Bergson: between an institutionalized and organized religion

[13:28] Abinoam Nørgaard: true, nectanebus

[13:28] xtc yonimyxtc: buddhism is only on the grow because buddhists are moving west not because westerns, per se, are converting

[13:29] Nectanebus: Interesting point, X, and I agree there

[13:29] herman Bergson: Like you find in China and the interest in ideas of a certain philosophy/religion

[13:29] Loo Zeta-Ah: Buddhism can give moral order without the guilt

[13:29] herman Bergson: indeed nectanebus....

[13:30] herman Bergson: same with islam  XTC....

[13:30] Nectanebus: eww...

[13:30] xtc yonimyxtc: the west doesn't have to emulate outside cultures as most outside cultures want what the west has.

[13:30] herman Bergson: they build large mosques in the Netherlands....

[13:30] herman Bergson: not because we become muslims but because the muslims come to us

[13:30] Nectanebus: Yup

[13:30] xtc yonimyxtc: yes, professor, same with islam

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: thats correct

[13:31] herman Bergson: That is a point xtc....

[13:31] Nectanebus: And speaking of integration, it's a good example of how people will expatriate without needing to integrate

[13:31] herman Bergson: all want what the West has....its technology, science, prosperity...

[13:31] xtc yonimyxtc: yes, nectanebus

[13:31] herman Bergson: Look at china...

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: indeed china make all our stuff now

[13:32] Nectanebus: I don't see Islam getting much of a hold in China, I must say.

[13:32] Daruma Boa: and without thinking about nature^^

[13:32] Daruma Boa: just want want want

[13:32] Loo Zeta-Ah: The shift is to China and not the West for material benefits now

[13:32] xtc yonimyxtc: true, nectanebus

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: made in china is on almost all things you find even if the company itself making it might be japanese ect.

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: they have all their production there

[13:32] herman Bergson: Buddhists and muslims are fighting each other already in Birma

[13:32] Loo Zeta-Ah: manufacturing occurs in China

[13:33] Loo Zeta-Ah: Parts, steel, iPhones....

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yep

[13:33] Nectanebus: Are we getting off-topic here?

[13:33] xtc yonimyxtc: china copy bots western products and resells it cheaper, not so much that anything is shifting there

[13:33] herman Bergson: Could be Nectanebus....

[13:33] Loo Zeta-Ah: not really because people have to make sense of life beyond materialism

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: the thing is that everything moves to materialism nowadays

[13:34] Daruma Boa: sure.sadly

[13:34] herman Bergson: Point is that Confucianism and daoism still pay an important role in China...

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: stuff stuff more stuff and money

[13:34] Loo Zeta-AhLoo Zeta-Ah shows up as failed hippy again

[13:34] Daruma Boa: ppl do not know why they live these days

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: 'money

[13:34] Abinoam Nørgaard: it may seem like a new thing, but it's always been like that

[13:34] Daruma Boa: they are lost

[13:34] Daruma Boa: in too many options

[13:34] xtc yonimyxtc: materialism is important for creature comforts

[13:35] Daruma Boa: it is too much possible

[13:35] Daruma Boa: ppl can not handle this

[13:35] Nectanebus: Well, yeah, I was having a convo with a friend about that the other day, herman

[13:35] Loo Zeta-Ah: But when it is held by the minority

[13:35] Loo Zeta-Ah: over the majority then.... riot

[13:35] herman Bergson: What they observe in china can be observed here too....

[13:35] Loo Zeta-Ah: Religion calms them....

[13:35] Nectanebus: We were wondering whether, lacking a religious angle, atheism has no true ability to structure the morals of a populace, what with mass media being a shallow comparison next to Allah or IHVH

[13:36] herman Bergson: the lack of an clear ethical theory....an answer to the question who/what am I

[13:36] herman Bergson: religions give such answers....but those are religions...

[13:37] Daruma Boa: no religion is bad. only what ppl do or "read" in it

[13:37] Daruma Boa: or want to read in it

[13:37] xtc yonimyxtc: daoist and confucianists will also integrate materialism into their philosophy/religion just as christianity, islam, hinduism, etc has

[13:37] Nectanebus: And it is easier for one to follow a spiritual path to realisation than a mertial path to being a footballer

[13:37] herman Bergson: I would say no, nectanebus....religion is not a necessary condition for the creation of moral ruules

[13:37] Nectanebus: monetary*

[13:37] herman Bergson: Aristotle already has shown us that

[13:37] Daruma Boa: Aristotle is dead^^^

[13:38] Loo Zeta-Ah: I agree with Herman as people use religion to justify their personal positioning

[13:38] Nectanebus: I wouldn't say it's necessary either, to be honest, but there needs to be a reason for people to follow morality that has the same hold as a Godhead, or else, as Western civilization of late has shown, materialism causes greed to rampant excess.

[13:38] Daruma Boa: yes true loo

[13:38] herman Bergson: yes Daruma....people die...their ideas can survive however

[13:38] Daruma Boa: they do, but we can now make our own thoughts

[13:38] Daruma Boa: perhaps on the base of Aristotle 

[13:39] herman Bergson: yes indeed....

[13:39] Daruma Boa: live goes on

[13:39] Daruma Boa: and it changes daily

[13:39] xtc yonimyxtc: i don't get the connection of the last phrase about materialism in your sentence about morality, nectanebus

[13:39] herman Bergson: Here we are of topic but the essential question is....is the human being BY NATURE a moral being....?

[13:39] Nectanebus: Well, without the parable of the beggar's last penny and rich people not getting into heaven, there's a lot less care being thrown around.

[13:40] Nectanebus: Oh, Herman, you didn't just go there, did you?

[13:40] Daruma Boa: i guess perhaps yes

[13:40] Nectanebus sweats

[13:40] Daruma Boa: but then comes live^^

[13:40] Daruma Boa: anfd the thoughts

[13:40] Daruma Boa: and the rest

[13:40] Daruma Boa: the struggles with live

[13:40] Daruma Boa: life

[13:40] Nectanebus: Gnostics versus Transcendentalists, pick your corner, get your gloves! Soc side blue, psy side red, let's av' it haha

[13:40] herman Bergson: Well...I only will refer to the books of Frans de Waal.....check him out...:-)

[13:41] xtc yonimyxtc: the human being is, by nature or otherwise, a morale being.

[13:41] xtc yonimyxtc: lol, nectanebus

[13:41] Nectanebus: id versus superego, anyone?

[13:41] Daruma Boa: yup

[13:41] Nectanebus: I@m sorry, I really can't afford to get involved here, I'll start ranting too much

[13:41] herman Bergson: Well, I'd advise you to think it all over :-)

[13:42] Daruma Boa: i think too much i guess

[13:42] Daruma Boa: and i think humans think too much

[13:42] xtc yonimyxtc: rant away, nectanebus

[13:42] Nectanebus: Suffice to say I think people learn their morals, and that they are subjective to an extent for everyone, regardless of deep seated belief, due to emotional and situational circumstance

[13:42] Daruma Boa: they have to learn to feel

[13:43] herman Bergson: I already paid attention to this issue in previous projects...

[13:43] Nectanebus: I@m sure it comes up constantly, haha

[13:43] Daruma Boa: missed it^^^

[13:43] herman Bergson: Oh yes....

[13:43] herman Bergson: So as you notice....

[13:43] Daruma Boa: its the most important thing -i guess°

[13:44] herman Bergson: this discussion a a typical daoist approach of our questions....we go with the flow :-))

[13:44] Abinoam Nørgaard: ㋡

[13:44] .: Beertje :.: i think now I understand wu-wei...:)

[13:44] Nectanebus: heheh

[13:44] herman Bergson: Next time we might behave more confucian :-))

[13:44] Daruma Boa: more???^^

[13:45] Daruma Boa: ok

[13:45] herman Bergson: May I thank you all for your active participation again....

[13:45] Daruma Boa: dito.

[13:45] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: great!

[13:45] Abinoam Nørgaard: thank you herman, great class

[13:45] .: Beertje :.: thank you Herman:)

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: as always ㋡

[13:45] Loo Zeta-Ah: crashed sorry

[13:45] Daruma Boa: have a lovely evening herman. and also the rest of the class.

[13:45] herman Bergson: You too Daruma :-)

[13:45] Nectanebus: Are we finishing eraly today, then?

[13:45] Daruma Boa: nini all

[13:45] Corronach: Thank you herman

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: cu soon again all

[13:46] Nectanebus: Cool, I'll see you all around, I@m sure

[13:47] Loo Zeta-Ah: Toodle pip and thanks Herman and everybody else I get a lot out of the discussions

[13:47] herman Bergson: thank you Loo

[13:47] Abinoam Nørgaard: good night everyone!

[13:48] Corronach: Good night

[13:48] .: Beertje :.: goodnight:)

[13:48] Nectanebus: NIght all

[13:48] herman Bergson: Bye all :-)

[13:48] xtc yonimyxtc: byby those who are leaving...

[13:48] xtc yonimyxtc: fare well until we meet again...

[13:48] xtc yonimyxtc: oxo...

[13:50] xtc yonimyxtc: Enjoy traveling around Second Life...

[13:50] xtc yonimyxtc: thank you for hosting, professor

[13:50] herman Bergson: Ok xtc :-)

491: Daoism continued

Lao-Tze and Zhuangzi later (3rd century BC.), developed the concept of the Dao. The Dao denotes something that is both the source and the driving force behind everything that exists.

 It is ultimately ineffable: "The Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao."

It is a model for humanity, the enumeration of all things, which exist and change. The Tao is the way of the universe. 

The world turns in endless cycles of change and variety, constantly increasing and then decreasing again, expanding and shrinking. Within this universal cycles are differences and contradictions.

The yin-yang symbol expresses the dualistic but balanced principles of Tao. The yin is the dark side, the breath that formed the earth. 

The yang is the bright side, the breath that formed the heavens. The interaction between the two can be seen in the universe: 

male and female, hot and cold, rich and poor, light and dark, good and evil. This principle is by Lao-Tsze explained as follows: "The Tao brought the One, the One brought the Two."

Taoism has developed from a rigorous ethical philosophy to a popular religion. During the course of the centuries 

According to Taoism everything is in perfect harmony that is not static, but in constant change. The balance changes and still nothing can exist without its opposite. 

Who goes with the flow of change can become the perfect man. Another important theme is the immortality of man. 

Using magic and alchemy are attempts to achieve this goal. Living in harmony with nature was the original ideal. 

The classic Taoist scholar withdrew back of human society and lived as a hermit in the wilderness  as pictured in many prints.

As I said before: "The Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao." Thence all I say here is not THE DAO, but what I can say, is, that for me it fits into a pattern of human behavior.

Ancient writings mainly about ethical matters and metaphysics and about how we have to live form the basis of the organization of a society and a way to keep it under control.

Certain individuals come forward with the claim, that they much better than the general population KNOW what the meaning of the ancient writings are.

One way or another they gain a higher status in the community and so on. An institutionalized religion is born. In Western culture we see exactly the same processes.

Is Daoism a religion or a philosophy? Both I would say, but for a philosopher this question is actually irrelevant. 

Philosophically interesting is how Ancient China dealt with moral questions, ethics and metaphysics. It is interesting to study its historical development and we can compare it with our own history of ideas.

However, through time Daoism also has become a religion, but that kind of Daoism has may faces and can not be defined in terms of a single organized religion.

Both aspects of what began more than 2500 years ago still play a role in our world. Do a Google search in the term "Taoism" and in less than 0.34  seconds you get 3.550.000 hits. And when you switch to "Images" you get the most beautiful pictures.

Thank you……

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you……

[13:23] xtc yonimyxtc: interesting.

[13:23] xtc yonimyxtc: ty

[13:23] Gemma Allen: i looked at the wiki philosophy article

[13:23] herman Bergson: The floor is yours :-)

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: ah ㋡

[13:23] Gemma Allen: and found it is very compllex!

[13:23] herman Bergson: And what did you learn Gemma?

[13:24] Gemma Allen: from what the person was saying last week that you just did it or not

[13:24] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:24] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: the yin and yang stuff i understand 100 % at least

[13:24] Gemma Allen: i thought it would be very simple

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: that's the most familiar thing with this i guess

[13:24] Gemma Allen: I had to leave early so don't know how that was resolved

[13:24] Gemma Allen: i did not check the blog

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: that they are opposites balancing each other out

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...this yin - yang thinking is also familiar to us....

[13:25] Gemma Allen: one thing i got is they recommend just live naturally

[13:25] herman Bergson: we love to think binary...

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: just like computers

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:25] xtc yonimyxtc: i also find it interesting that all people who practice eastern 'philosophy' and eastern 'religions' are, but for the influence of the west, still generally cruel.

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: not really maybe

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: :9

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:25] Gemma Allen: that is a major part of the philosophy

[13:26] herman Bergson: In a way Gemma it makes me think of Rousseau....the back to nature idea....

[13:26] Gemma Allen: cruel??

[13:26] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:26] Gemma Allen: ah

[13:26] Gemma Allen: and does contain the yin yang balance

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes XTC...what do you mean by 'cruel'?

[13:27] Gemma Allen: was going to ask that too

[13:27] Gemma Allen: most buddhists are very peaceful most i say

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:27] Gemma Allen: there are radicals everywhere

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: see no cruelty in general here

[13:28] herman Bergson: yes even among buddhist monks :-)

[13:28] Gemma Allen: yep

[13:28] herman Bergson: pretty amazing tho

[13:29] Gemma Allen: xtc not seeing all your typing

[13:29] herman Bergson looks at xtc

[13:29] Gemma Allen: not arriving

[[13:29] xtc yonimyxtc: i have read many books lately, e. g. 'oil lamps for china' 'anna and the king' 'footsteps in india' which were all written about life in those places generally in the last 100 - 125 years and the cruelty they observed traumatized my senses - i understand from current news reports, it is still happening

[13:29] herman Bergson: I kpet on typing myself a sec ago while I wasn't at all

[13:30] Gemma Allen: ah i see

[13:30] ἀρετή: the cruelty is happening...

[13:30] herman Bergson: ahh....interesting observation....Xtc

[13:30] ἀρετή: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/25/burma-buddhist-mobs-burn-muslim-homes

[13:30] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:30] Gemma Allen: in india now there is a lot of cruelty

[13:30] xtc yonimyxtc: *as a cultural thing rather than via individuals who are mentally disabled

[13:31] Umae Ying: could it be that there are people who live a life which believes in good... but that, like here, there are MANY corrupt people

[13:31] Gemma Allen: for example the treatment of women by some

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:31] Umae Ying: and one might choose to judge or write about either group

[13:31] herman Bergson: Maybe there is an answer to it....

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: like in saudi arabia where they are looked upon as objects woth no rights

[13:31] Gemma Allen: it is true cant blame the philosophy for those who do NOT practice it

[13:31] xtc yonimyxtc: corruption does not necessarily equally physical cruelty

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: that's cruelty id say

[13:32] herman Bergson: our culture is highly individualistic.....

[13:32] Gemma Allen: that is the problem

[13:32] herman Bergson: the number one here is the individual....

[13:32] xtc yonimyxtc: the majority of people in the east and middle east are not atheists

[13:32] Gemma Allen: no they are not

[13:32] herman Bergson: That is not the case in Chinese culture for instance

[13:33] Umae Ying: as Gemma said... the ones who do not practice the philosophy

[13:33] herman Bergson: the system transcends the individual....

[13:33] xtc yonimyxtc: actually, their lives are in mortal danger if they admit to atheism

[13:33] Umae Ying: that does not mean that the good ones do not exist

[13:33] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:33] Gemma Allen: true some places

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:33] ἀρετή: could it be that it comes down to a lack of balance.. like that advocated in Taoism?

[13:33] xtc yonimyxtc: *even atheism of philosophical views held by the ppl in power

[13:33] herman Bergson: Therefor the individual has to subjugate to the system or die

[13:34] herman Bergson: to put it bluntly

[13:34] Gemma Allen: true

[13:34] Gemma Allen: or go to prison for a long time

[13:34] Umae Ying: in many cases you get extremists... who "lay down the law" within a philosophy or religion... distorting it

[13:34] xtc yonimyxtc: yes, professor Bergson, exactly

[13:34] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:34] Gemma Allen: to that too

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:34] Gemma Allen: but we are trying to look at the basic philosophy

[13:35] Gemma Allen: or the way it should be

[13:35] herman Bergson: You could see that principle rule under Stalin for instance clearly....

[13:35] xtc yonimyxtc: yes

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:35] herman Bergson: the individual life doesn't count....the community does...the system does

[13:35] Gemma Allen: look at some of the african nations now

[13:35] herman Bergson: and confucianism is like that....

[13:36] herman Bergson: in that sense Daoism was a counter movement...

[13:36] Gemma Allen: that is why we have such a hard time looking at eastern religions

[13:36] Gemma Allen: we look from our perspective all the time

[13:36] Corronach: exactly, Gemma

[13:36] herman Bergson: To me they show the same characteristics as western religions to me Gemma

[13:37] Gemma Allen: they do in some ways

[13:37] herman Bergson: If you look from a behavioral point of view, in my opinion , the Chinese didn't act different from us in the West

[13:37] Gemma Allen: but the practices are different

[13:37] Gemma Allen: you think not??

[13:38] Gemma Allen: the belief in the ancestors ??

[13:38] Gemma Allen: so strong in every day life?

[13:38] herman Bergson: What becomes the dominant philosophy or religion is an arbitrary matter influenced by all kinds of cultural aspects of a society

[13:38] ἀρετή: all the western influence :)

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: indeed the tricky think here is that we look from our view right into another and then we have a hard time understanding

[13:39] Umae Ying: someone mentioned the treatment of women... Schopenhaur wrote his view of women and it sounded not too distant from the views of those who repress them today

[13:39] ἀρετή: I'm starting to the think the west knows more about eastern philosophies.. and the east.. the western views..

[13:39] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:39] Gemma Allen: lol

[13:39] ἀρετή: -the

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:39] herman Bergson: Nice point Umae :-))

[13:39] herman Bergson: But not really correct I would say

[13:40] xtc yonimyxtc: i read somewhere recently, that the sexual act of a man who follows taoism is considered by him to be a form of 'food' for his body and if his partner does, or can not 'full-fill' him, it is the partners energy who's lacking thus the need for concubines in the ancient and not so ancient times

[13:40] herman Bergson: In case of Schopenhauer we talk about the psychological constitution of an individual...

[13:40] Umae Ying: and the way the white man treated the native americans...

[13:40] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:40] Gemma Allen: good excuse

[13:40] Umae Ying: not everyone was cruel

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:41] herman Bergson: in case of Indian or Muslim culture we talk about a whole society...a culture

[13:41] Gemma Allen: right

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: yes¨

[13:41] xtc yonimyxtc: not 'indian' rather hindu or sihks

[13:42] herman Bergson: ok xtc..indeed

[13:42] xtc yonimyxtc: as there are many muslims in india

[13:42] Umae Ying: i believe Schopenhauer represented the view of some/many of his contemporaries

[13:42] xtc yonimyxtc: and pockets of christianity from st paul who went to the southwest of india

[13:43] herman Bergson: true xtc...

[13:43] Umae Ying: my in laws did not believe women should have an education...

[13:43] herman Bergson: IN that respect iIndia is a divers country...

[13:44] Umae Ying: german

[13:44] Gemma Allen: well they are not alone

[13:44] xtc yonimyxtc: granted, the hindu culture, or religion if you like, encompasses the majority of india

[13:44] Gemma Allen: even now

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hinduism is what you think about of india

[13:44] herman Bergson: that is why I used the ter 'Indian culture'

[13:44] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:45] Gemma Allen: when you look at each country west or east there seems to be a minority sthat is hardly accepted

[13:45] Gemma Allen: anywhere

[13:45] herman Bergson: The big question is..now we have seen the first movements of chinses philosophy.....is it so different from ours?

[13:45] Gemma Allen: well

[13:46] Gemma Allen: aspects of it no

[13:46] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:46] Gemma Allen: other aspects

[13:46] herman Bergson: That is my feeling too Gemma....

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: the concepts and views are different but have an analogy on our culture i think

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: in some way

[13:46] Gemma Allen: right

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: its just a different view

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: way different

[13:47] Umae Ying: human beings seem to come up with similar questions... no matter where they are... ......how do they answer them

[13:47] herman Bergson: indeed Umae

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:47] Gemma Allen: one thing i have learned in this class

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: very true

[13:47] ἀρετή: by looking outward...

[13:47] Gemma Allen: there are always more questions than answers ever

[13:47] Gemma Allen: one leads to another

[13:48] herman Bergson: Let me give you one example, which at least puzzles me but which is so common in any religion

[13:48] xtc yonimyxtc: i take exception to that comment about how the white men treated the aboriginals of north america - i can cite many books that point out the majority of it was in self-defense. i don't wish to discuss this, only to point out that i take exception to that comment

[13:48] herman Bergson: Lao-Tze is quoted: "The Dao that can be told of is not the eternal Dao."

[13:48] Umae Ying: death

[13:49] Gemma Allen: oh dear better not i see both

[13:49] Gemma Allen: and it still continues today

[13:49] herman Bergson: Let's stick to the subject :-))

[13:49] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:49] Gemma Allen: lol

[13:49] herman Bergson: That quote gives me the creeps in a way....

[13:50] herman Bergson: there is some one saying that on the one hand you can talk about the Dao, but it is NOT the real thing.....

[13:50] Gemma Allen: well brings me back t o the avatar last week

[13:50] xtc yonimyxtc: i agree, lets stick to the subject.

[13:50] Gemma Allen: who insisted it just IS

[13:50] Gemma Allen: inside

[13:50] herman Bergson: Then tell me...1. how can you know the real thing and 2. if you can why cant you talk about it?

[13:51] xtc yonimyxtc: :-)

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: hmmm

[13:51] Gemma Allen: i have no idea

[13:51] herman Bergson: Time and again we run into people who claim to know more than we know....and we have no means at all to verify that knowledge

[13:52] Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:52] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:52] herman Bergson: That is my problem with mysticism....

[13:52] herman Bergson: And the worst thing is...

[13:52] Gemma Allen: ah well as you have said it is a matter of BELIEVING

[13:53] Gemma Allen: they believe and that is the PROOF

[13:53] Gemma Allen: for them

[13:53] herman Bergson: when you say...all you say is bull.. you are called a heretic or even burned:-))

[13:53] herman Bergson: But that is scary Gemma....

[13:53] Umae Ying: there are many things we cannot use words for... except to get close to it... it is like this or like that... but cannot be explicit

[13:53] Gemma Allen: live with it

[13:53] xtc yonimyxtc: professor! burned?

[13:53] Umae Ying: that is what art is for

[13:53] ἀρετή: sunsets...

[13:53] herman Bergson: Because they believe the wear a bomb vest and blow themselves up for instance

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: interesting

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:54] Gemma Allen: looks at the terrorists in the mall last week

[13:54] Gemma Allen: amazing

[13:54] xtc yonimyxtc: have we not progressed from such barbarianisms?

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: indeed, , those guys are nuts

[13:54] Gemma Allen: well even buddhist monks burn themselves

[13:54] Gemma Allen: i portest

[13:54] Gemma Allen: in *

[13:54] xtc yonimyxtc: o! sorry, i thought u were speaking of witches

[13:55] herman Bergson: witches were only a European problem xtc :-)

[13:55] Gemma Allen: and usa

[13:55] herman Bergson: But heretics were burned on the stake here too :-)

[13:55] Umae Ying: i ran into witchcraft in Africa

[13:55] Gemma Allen: witches burned not far from UCONN Herman

[13:55] Umae Ying: and among the Navajo

[13:55] xtc yonimyxtc: we have grown being burnings at the stake in the west, i believe

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: hope so

[13:56] herman Bergson: We don't do that anymore , no :-)

[13:56] Gemma Allen: just blow up entire places

[13:56] herman Bergson: What you mean is religion Umae....

[13:56] Gemma Allen: where the "witches" might be

[13:57] Umae Ying: or a con

[13:57] herman Bergson: witches were anti religious...

[13:57] xtc yonimyxtc: who does, Gemma?

[13:57] Umae Ying: seemed like a con to me

[13:57] Umae Ying: in africa

[13:57] Umae Ying: believed among the Navajo

[13:57] xtc yonimyxtc: human behavior and taoism...

[13:58] Gemma Allen: depending on where you are

[13:58] xtc yonimyxtc: afk...

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: oki

[13:58] herman Bergson: yes xtc...and it doesn't differ that much from what we have seen in our cultural history

[13:58] Umae Ying: i think of european "witches" as being individualistic... non-conformists.. among people who required conformity

[13:58] Gemma Allen: the iraqi think the other part of the culture nto in their religion philosophy are

[13:59] Umae Ying: not all... different places different witches

[13:59] Umae Ying: in europe

[13:59] Gemma Allen: the same in aphganistan

[13:59] Gemma Allen: the same in africa

[13:59] Gemma Allen: different countries and cultures

[13:59] Gemma Allen: have their version of witches

[13:59] herman Bergson: We'll come to arabic philosophy in coming lectures Gemma :-)

[13:59] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[14:06] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your good discussion...

[14:06] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[14:06] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[14:06] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:06] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[14:06] Corronach: Thank you

[14:06] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[14:06] Bejiita Imako: good as always

[14:06] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:06] ἀρετή: Thanks