Sunday, May 10, 2009

33b René Descartes

Descartes was the first philosopher, who explicitely stated that man is a combination of two seperate things: a body, an entity that has extension and a mind, a substance that has no extension.

But didnt we have a mind before Descartes? Yes and no. There was a third party involved: the soul. So before Descartes was, what we would call mind a kind of mix of the thinking part of man and the soul, the part that survives death.

In the Middle Ages Augustine and Thomas Aquino emphazised the soul part of their concept of mind mainly, while for Descartes the mind was only thinking, the awareness of all that is happening inside us.

John Locke who will meet soon was even more clearer. He said: We cant escape our thoughts; you are always conscious of the fact that you think and you are not always conscious of your soul.

Here you see how soul and mind were really distinct entities. When we die our soul is supposed to stay "alive", but we derive our personal identity mainly from our body and mind. And that is the philosophical concern. Since Descartes the soul had become the domain of theologians only. A matter of belief, not a philosophical matter.

So here we are,,,in two pieces...a mind and a body. But how do we have to understand that. I there some mind siting at the wheel guiding my body. But how, if he mind is a non-extensional non-material substance? How can it have effect on a material substance?

And where is that my butt or belly, or in my head?Descartes himself had a rather weird theory about how the mental and the physical interacted: through the pineal gland in the brain.

Descartes observation that we have a distinct mind and body put the soul behind the horizon of philosophy, but wasnt the great explanation of what exists. He didnt come up with a good explanation of the way these to so different substances, body and mind, interacted.

In stead of an answer we are stuck with many questions still. How to continue? What tools do we have to tackle this problem? Our tool is language. Language describes the world as we observe it.

Language is a system of meaning and reference. That is a good point to start with: a word, say 'house' has a meaning 'a place to live in' and a reference.....we can point at the very thing itself and say..look this is my house: the reference of the word.

You could make a distinction between two kinds of statements, physicalistic and mentalistic statement. Physicalistic statement are about the physical world, my body, my central nerve system, things like that. The reference of such statements is easily established.

Mentalistic statements are about our mental states..'I feel happy, sad, bored...' or 'I feel a pain in my arm'. And here we have two problems of reference; pain....what is the reference of the word? I mean I feel a pain too.....But is my pain the same as your pain? These words have a subjective part.

The second problem is that of establshing a reference for mentalistic statements. What is the reference of happy? Ok..I see your smile...but that is a smile not happiness.....I see you dance...but that is a movement not happiness.....or is it?

As a provisional conclusion I would say, that the modern debate on the mind body problem is a debate on reference of mentalistic statements. We will get to this issue again later, when we will meet a man as B. B. Skinner and his behaviorism.

The Discussion

[13:06] hope63 Shepherd: anyway -- we don't know much about our brain yet.. that's the problem with allé the philosophers we have talked about.. they think its someway connected to the soul..
[13:06] Osrum Sands: might be
[13:06] Herman Bergson: you are on the right track Hope..:-)
[13:06] AristotleVon Doobie: what soul?
[13:06] Ewa Aska: lol
[13:07] Herman Bergson: Well.....time to begin, I think...:-)
[13:07] Herman Bergson: Hope is already powering up..:-)
[13:07] hope63 Shepherd: the kind of unknown that they talk about since thousands of years..
[13:07] Cailleach Shan: Yay... Go Hope
[13:08] Gemma Cleanslate: ty Hope
[13:08] hope63 Shepherd: lol.. i will be quiet later..:)
[13:08] Herman Bergson: let me go first
[13:08] Cailleach Shan: :)
[13:08] hope63 Shepherd: ty to you gemma.. i feel honored:).
. (the lecture)

[13:16] Herman Bergson: Sofar the mind-body problem....
[13:16] Herman Bergson: a tiny bit of it
[13:16] Herman Bergson: if you have any questions or remarks...feel free
[13:17] Zen Arado: Descartes had just made a false distinction between body and the mind
[13:17] Zen Arado: There is something that is all one
[13:17] Gemma Cleanslate: i think we are probably so use to having the mind body explained in scientific medical terms it is hard to see it a s a problem
[13:18] Herman Bergson: You mean thet the refeence of mentalistic and physicalistic statements is the same , Zen?
[13:18] hope63 Shepherd: i think for any subjective statement language is the key issue.. communicate.. and be on thesame level
[13:18] itsme Frederix: @Herman, well if we think and have our (mine) mind what argument are there that there are other minds?
[13:18] Osrum Sands: Big point Hope
[13:18] Zen Arado: no it's just that we are dividing things when there doesn't need to be a division
[13:19] Zen Arado: does that make sense?
[13:19] Herman Bergson: Ok..hold on
[13:19] AristotleVon Doobie: It is interestng that the existence of us can not be touched.
[13:19] Herman Bergson: Itsme hits a nerve.....
[13:19] Herman Bergson: I guess he is refering to I right Itsme?
[13:19] itsme Frederix: Yep Herman
[13:20] Herman Bergson: I thought so....
[13:20] Herman Bergson: Could we postpone that subject to another moment itsme....for it isnt an easy one..
[13:20] Gemma Cleanslate: put that on the list Hope
[13:20] itsme Frederix: Sure as long as there is an anwer I can wait
[13:21] hope63 Shepherd: smile:)
[13:21] Zen Arado: Where is the mind lots of places in our bodies can think?
[13:21] Herman Bergson: No Zen's remark....on making unnecessary distinctions..
[13:21] Herman Bergson: the fact is that we have our descriptive language.....
[13:22] Herman Bergson: physicalistic statements are quite distinc from mentalistic statement
[13:22] Herman Bergson: so we have this 'mind' language
[13:22] Herman Bergson: and 'body' language, so to speak
[13:23] Herman Bergson: and we have the problem that they are so distinct in establishing their truth
[13:23] Cailleach Shan: I'm feeling a bit slow this morning Herman.... I can't see the problem...
[13:23] Zen Arado: Yes but haven't we just constructed these distinctions ourselves?
[13:23] Zen Arado: They might not exist otherwise
[13:24] Osrum Sands: Ah the issue of weather what we beleive to be right - it might not really be right at all
[13:24] itsme Frederix: @Herman, if these languages are so distinct in their own thruth - how can they be aware of the others?
[13:24] Zen Arado: but we construct a language too don't we?
[13:25] AristotleVon Doobie: Isnt the struggle between 'thinking' and 'sensing'?
[13:25] Zen Arado: And then be invested it with our own meanings
[13:26] Herman Bergson: Well....a lot of questions......
[13:26] Herman Bergson: Let's begin with Cailleach....
[13:26] Cailleach Shan: mmm....
[13:26] Herman Bergson: What is the problem......?
[13:27] Herman Bergson: The big problem is man himself.....he asks who he is..what he is in this universe..
[13:27] Herman Bergson: and in his wondering about his existence he finds a mind inside him....
[13:27] Zen Arado: we think too much :)
[13:27] Herman Bergson: or at least words that refer to mental states....
[13:27] AristotleVon Doobie: no, no
[13:28] Osrum Sands: or too little
[13:28] Herman Bergson: and then the question..what am I talking about is very legit...
[13:28] Cailleach Shan: ok... if everyone thought like I do ... there wouldn't be a problem..
[13:28] Cailleach Shan: :)
[13:28] Gray Cardiff: or maybe dont have the language to describe it
[13:29] Herman Bergson: well..let me give you one example why the answer to the mind body question is an issue...
[13:29] Herman Bergson: think of someone with mental problems....depression.....
[13:29] Herman Bergson: what is wrong with this person.....yuo could say...his mind is ill....
[13:30] Herman Bergson: but the weird thing is ..we give him a pill against depression and he cheers up....
[13:30] Herman Bergson: a physical intervention...and it changes the mind....
[13:30] Zen Arado: the mind affects the body to doesn't it
[13:30] Gray Cardiff: dont agree with that herman
[13:31] Herman Bergson: so ? Is there really a mind or is what we call mind just a physical condition...
[13:31] Gemma Cleanslate: that is why i said quite a while age /we are so used to the medical explanation and teh science of it it is hard to see it aa a problem we just accept it
[13:31] itsme Frederix: @Herman I understand that a lot what is mindish is actually physical, at least that is said the last years/decades
[13:31] arabella Ella: herman sorry i was late - but what you say follows davidson a great deal yes?
[13:32] Herman Bergson: Right Gemma....and Itsme.....
[13:32] arabella Ella: the body and the mind interact - physical and mental interact
[13:32] Cailleach Shan: mmm..... and isn't the reverse also true.... a balanced mind ... healthy body..
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: My mind is who I AM, my brain translates for my mind, my body is the machine that perfoms.
[13:32] Gemma Cleanslate: yse
[13:32] Herman Bergson: Nowadays we are inclind to a materialistic interpretation of the mind......
[13:32] Ewa Aska: right gemma
[13:32] Osrum Sands: some are
[13:32] Herman Bergson: Oops....stop....
[13:33] itsme Frederix: materialistic, deterministic?
[13:33] Herman Bergson: just listen to Aristotle.....a classical remark:My mind is who I AM, my brain translates for my mind, my body is the machine that perfoms
[13:33] Herman Bergson: In his remark we see three things....a mind..a brain...a body.....
[13:33] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:33] arabella Ella: but does mind have any significance if there is no body or no world?
[13:33] hope63 Shepherd: meaning youi control your body with your mind ari?
[13:34] Herman Bergson: does that make sens e or doenst it....are there three distinct entities?
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: not on this plane arabella
[13:34] Zen Arado: that an early form of dualism?
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: trialism?
[13:34] Cailleach Shan: Herman, can you give an example of where a mentalistic truth contradicts a physicalistic truth?
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: the trinity?
[13:35] Herman Bergson: That is a difficult one Cailleach....
[13:35] Gray Cardiff: amen ari
[13:35] Cailleach Shan: Is that what we are talking about here though?
[13:35] arabella Ella: or frank jackson and his story of mary the colour scientist?
[13:35] Herman Bergson: What should I understand...
[13:35] Herman Bergson: Maybe you could state it otherwise....
[13:36] Herman Bergson: to establish the truthvalue of a physicalistic statement we have our methods
[13:36] Herman Bergson: and a reasonable epistemological explanation..
[13:37] Herman Bergson: with mentalistic statements this is not so easy at all...
[13:37] Herman Bergson: the philosophical tradition shows two approaches...
[13:37] arabella Ella: yea materialistic is causal, mental is normative
[13:37] Herman Bergson: a dualism, like Descartes introduced at the one end...
[13:38] hope63 Shepherd: i think the answer to cal for me is that one "truth" cannot contradict another "truth".. one could not be truth then..
[13:38] Herman Bergson: and a monisim at the other end: check out as your homework the Identity Theory...
[13:39] Herman Bergson: The materialist approach brings up an old problem of determinism
[13:39] Herman Bergson: Democritus was even aware of that already.....material causality...laws of where is the free will....
[13:40] itsme Frederix: @Herman are you referring to Leibniz with monism (monads)
[13:40] Herman Bergson: Not exactly itme..I was refering to the Identity Theory primarily
[13:41] Herman Bergson: Feigl is a big name here
[13:41] arabella Ella: but herman don't the identity theorists seem to leave a lot out of their story?
[13:41] itsme Frederix: Feigl .. can you mention other names I'm new here so I've missed a lot
[13:42] Herman Bergson: Smart , a Materiaist Theory of Mind
[13:42] Herman Bergson: I forgot his first name....
[13:42] arabella Ella: J.J. Smart
[13:43] Herman Bergson: there is a good article in the WWW.IEP.COM on the mind-body problem...
[13:43] Herman Bergson: Thx arabella
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: How should we pursue the Identity Theory?
[13:43] hope63 Shepherd: i think a new approach to the question could be the fact that every living species is an individual species..nor equal to anothdr
[13:43] Herman Bergson: it was 30 years ago that I wrote my thesis about him..:-)
[13:44] hope63 Shepherd: put it on your blog herman:)
[13:44] arabella Ella: on Smart u mean? wow
[13:44] Cailleach Shan: Is that a mind problem herman :)
[13:44] herman Bergson smiles..
[13:44] itsme Frederix: yep I did some wiki - very recent theory
[13:45] Herman Bergson: yes on the Materialism of Smart
[13:45] arabella Ella: v interesting - did u publish it?
[13:45] Herman Bergson: No I didnt publish it...
[13:45] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:46] arabella Ella: pity :(
[13:46] Herman Bergson: Let's put some pieces together.......
[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: So if Descartes separated out the soul what did he think survived death?
[13:46] Herman Bergson: 1. we have the meaning reference problem
[13:47] Herman Bergson: 2. we have the dualist or identity theory explanation
[13:47] Herman Bergson: 3. we have the problem of solipsism....
[13:47] Herman Bergson: 4. where is the soul in all this?
[13:48] hope63 Shepherd: in our mind?
[13:48] Rodney Handrick: That's a good point...where is the soul?
[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: what soul?
[13:48] Herman Bergson: Yes...
[13:48] Zen Arado: I don't think there is any such thing as a soul
[13:48] hope63 Shepherd: soul.. a wish we wish to be true...
[13:49] Herman Bergson: Well you could say that since Descartes the soul has become the private property of theologians...
[13:49] itsme Frederix: We've sold our soul ages ago
[13:49] Zen Arado: we hope to escape death?
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: I jus do not know Zen
[13:49] Herman Bergson: yes Zen...that is the drive behind our need the think of a soul...
[13:49] Zen Arado: Didn't Descartes believe in the concept ofa soul?
[13:49] AristotleVon Doobie: Kind of been puting off finding out
[13:50] Gemma Cleanslate: :-)
[13:50] Herman Bergson: Descartes still believed in he will have believed in a soul too
[13:50] arabella Ella: don't some people equate mind with soul?
[13:50] Zen Arado: it's very important in the idea of personal identity isn't it?
[13:50] Herman Bergson: but his concern was epitemological, not theological
[13:50] Cailleach Shan: Soul .... what is my soul.... my subtle dimension.... beyond the mind...
[13:50] itsme Frederix: @Herman did he beleive, or was it political better to do .. or did he need God to concuer solipism?
[13:50] AristotleVon Doobie: It makes us feel better about ourselves
[13:51] Herman Bergson: two remarks.....
[13:51] Herman Bergson: Arabella...equating soul and mind was in fact the situation before Descartes...
[13:51] arabella Ella: ok i see
[13:52] arabella Ella: altho i know some RL theologians who still like that idea ;)
[13:52] Herman Bergson: Plato had some understanding of a concept of mind, but he still mixed it with soul atriibutes...survival after death......
[13:53] Herman Bergson: The scholastics almost ignored the mind part.....for them the soul was important....
[13:53] Herman Bergson: And yes..Itsme....I guess you might be quite right...political correct and definitely a way to escape solipsism
[13:53] Rodney Handrick: So...does that mean Plato believed in reincarnation?
[13:53] AristotleVon Doobie: Since the mind is nonphysical maybe it survies death.
[13:54] Herman Bergson: I am not sure Rodney.....
[13:54] Zen Arado: Nobody knows!
[13:54] hope63 Shepherd: mind nonphysical?
[13:54] AristotleVon Doobie: Isnt that what Descartes said?
[13:55] hope63 Shepherd: brain 9is ophysical osn't it...
[13:55] Herman Bergson: I think it is time to reread this discussion in our blog
[13:55] AristotleVon Doobie: The brain is just the translator.
[13:55] hope63 Shepherd: brain functions are physical..
[13:55] AristotleVon Doobie: Yes but not the essence of man
[13:56] Gray Cardiff: my mind is telling me my brain hurts
[13:56] AristotleVon Doobie: Indeed :)
[13:56] Cailleach Shan: lol Gray... me too..
[13:56] arabella Ella: lol
[13:56] Herman Bergson: There you go again Aristotle....the essence of man......
[13:56] AristotleVon Doobie: yes
[13:56] Herman Bergson: yes Gray...I can imagine....
[13:56] AristotleVon Doobie: I am
[13:56] Gray Cardiff: or is it my soul?
[13:56] Herman Bergson: lol
[13:56] Rodney Handrick: When your brain...that means your stretching it...:-)
[13:56] Zen Arado: I don't think there is any essence
[13:57] Zen Arado: I think we are just a bunch of physical and mental processes
[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: Thn you do not thin?
[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: A computer with legs.
[13:57] arabella Ella: but zen your mental processes may trsanslate into mind?
[13:57] arabella Ella: not just brain?
[13:57] Herman Bergson: Here you go again Zen...physical and mental processes.....I could say..only physical processes
[13:57] Cailleach Shan: Hahahaha.... a room full of brains on fire....
[13:58] AristotleVon Doobie: Burning love!
[13:58] Herman Bergson: lol..yes Cailleach...
[13:58] arabella Ella: lol
[13:58] Zen Arado: what's wrong with mental processes?
[13:58] Gray Cardiff: now your talking passion
[13:58] AristotleVon Doobie: :))
[13:58] Herman Bergson: there is nothing wrong withthem Zen, but I could doubt that they exist...
[13:58] Zen Arado: Maybe it is all just physical then?
[13:58] AristotleVon Doobie: dubito
[13:59] arabella Ella: but if thinking exists ... how can thinking exist if there is no world for it to think about?
[13:59] Herman Bergson: mentalistic words are just another language for the same thing..physical processes
[13:59] hope63 Shepherd: what would be wrong with that, Zed...
[[13:59] AristotleVon Doobie: maybe it created something to think about
[13:59] Zen Arado: You cold call the mind just briain processors
[13:59] Zen Arado: processes
[13:59] arabella Ella: as in Berkeley?
[13:59] arabella Ella: idealism?
[13:59] itsme Frederix: There he is, Berkeley
[13:59] itsme Frederix: Solip
[14:00] Herman Bergson: Yes Itsme..just a little patience and we will meet him...:-)
[14:00] arabella Ella: yes itsme but credible too to some extent
[14:00] hope63 Shepherd: if it is a processor.. one could say that. the difference is that the input is subject to the oindividual treatment of data..
[14:01] arabella Ella: but even if we accept that the mind is just simply physical it still cannot account for the richness of conscious experience can it?
[14:01] hope63 Shepherd: and as i said before.. no man is equal..
[14:01] hope63 Shepherd: processors are..
[14:01] itsme Frederix: arabella why not, is physics not rich
[14:01] Herman Bergson: People, I dont know how it is with you...but I feel a strong urge to dig into my books and gain more insight in all what passed here in the discussion
[14:01] AristotleVon Doobie: the mind in its own definitin can not be physical
[14:02] Zen Arado: but it depends on the physical substrate?
[14:02] arabella Ella: a lot of what happens which we attribute to mind cannot be explained physically by science or causally
[14:02] hope63 Shepherd: what would you call MIND ari
[14:02] arabella Ella: like qualia for example
[14:02] Ludwig John: but the mind is located in our brain
[14:02] AristotleVon Doobie: Me.
[14:02] Zen Arado: But the mind cannot exist on its own?
[14:02] itsme Frederix: arrabela but still there is also not another "nice" explenation
[14:03] Cailleach Shan: lol.... humans on a roll...I love it.
[14:03] AristotleVon Doobie: How do you know the mind cannot exist on its own?
[14:03] Osrum Sands: Anyone heard about memory transfer with a boyd transplant
[14:03] Enea Lobo is Online
[14:03] hope63 Shepherd: tel that to your girl.. that you are just mind lol
[14:03] arabella Ella: there is absolutely no physical explanation - yet - for a lot of mental stuff
[14:03] Gemma Cleanslate: LOL
[14:03] Ludwig John: mind can perhaps exist in a computer?
[14:03] Zen Arado: I don' know it just seemed sensible to me!
[14:03] Cailleach Shan: Is laughter physical or mental!!!!
[14:03] AristotleVon Doobie: If the mind suvives death it can exist without a body.
[14:04] hope63 Shepherd: why not both cal..
[14:04] Herman Bergson: Ah.... the Turing test
[14:04] AristotleVon Doobie: Laughter is a hoot.
[14:04] Cailleach Shan: Hahahahahahahahahahaha
[14:04] Zen Arado: I think all the senses need a physical base the ear etc
[14:04] arabella Ella: cal if it is causal it is physical if it is normative it is mental - laughter
[14:04] itsme Frederix: aristotle, isn't it the "mind" that dies, the flesh and all remains
[14:04] Osrum Sands: people have spoken about new thougths after a transplant - thougths or memories which were part of the donor
[14:04] AristotleVon Doobie: no without the mind the body can not survivve
[14:04] Zen Arado: They might just be hallucinations though!
[14:05] AristotleVon Doobie: Ah, yes LSD
[14:05] itsme Frederix: Aristolte so you say ndeed it's the mind that is dying
[14:05] arabella Ella: and without the body or the world there would be no thoughts either
[14:05] hope63 Shepherd: the studies of kuebler -ross pose a problemn to the mind.-soul question..
[14:05] Herman Bergson: there a mind....?
[14:05] Zen Arado: I think they are all interdependent
[14:05] AristotleVon Doobie: The mind jus may decide to depart the body and go other places.
[14:05] Herman Bergson: or only a body with properties?
[14:05] Gemma Cleanslate: there is where i stand too
[14:06] itsme Frederix: Herman, no idea yet, but Aristotle postulates one apriori - so I accepted that as a premisse
[14:06] Zen Arado: That may be wishful thinking to smile
[14:06] AristotleVon Doobie: yes.
[14:06] AristotleVon Doobie: Kind of like theology
[14:06] Herman Bergson: Oh my..we gonna need Kant here too....
[14:07] itsme Frederix: Aristotle postuled one but than came up with a contradiction - the mind died
[14:07] AristotleVon Doobie: mabe not
[14:07] itsme Frederix: Herman sure you will do Kant
[14:07] Herman Bergson: sure...
[14:07] hope63 Shepherd: we are going to put all the guys into a shaker and get a very strong cocktail lol
[14:07] AristotleVon Doobie: a mind body cocktail
[14:07] Gemma Cleanslate: lol
[14:07] Herman Bergson: I agree Hope.....time for a drink...
[14:08] Gemma Cleanslate: isn't that what we have now??
[14:08] AristotleVon Doobie: The working of life.
[14:08] Cailleach Shan: lol that's what we are now....
[14:08] Herman Bergson: My friends, thank you all for this great discussion....a pearl in our blog it will be..:-)
[14:08] Ze Novikov: TY!
[14:08] Gemma Cleanslate: well
[14:08] Zen Arado: thank you too it was interesting
[14:08] AristotleVon Doobie: Yes thank you Herman...what a wonderful thing you have wrought.
[14:09] arabella Ella: thank you so much, herman, brilliant as always ;)
[14:09] itsme Frederix aplaudes
[14:09] Gray Cardiff: thank you Herman can someone help me to the door
[14:09] Cailleach Shan: Good one Herman and every one....
[14:09] AristotleVon Doobie: lol
[14:09] hope63 Shepherd: last question.. herman,. as a not english speaking peron.. and as i mentioned.. language is so important.. what do or should we understand when we talk about MIND nere..
[14:09] AristotleVon Doobie: I get a good feeling about humanity after attending this class
[14:09] Gray Cardiff: someone shoot hope please
[14:10] Osrum Sands: Gary settle
[14:10] hope63 Shepherd: i'm small and pretty fast -so not easy to hit
[14:10] Cailleach Shan: Go and have a little lie down Gray..
[14:10] AristotleVon Doobie: roflol
[14:10] Gray Cardiff: i need on bad
[14:10] Gray Cardiff: one
[14:10] AristotleVon Doobie: just one?
[14:11] Osrum Sands: looks like our minds are working overtime and have left our bodies here
[14:11] Rodney Handrick: hahahah
[14:12] hope63 Shepherd: grey . the question ois no joke.. in german we have several words ...which one should i use and understand,,
[14:12] Gemma Cleanslate: just too lazy to move
[14:12] Gray Cardiff: my soul is floating above me
[14:12] Osrum Sands: first class I have seen where we all stay so long
[14:12] Gemma Cleanslate: oh no
[14:12] AristotleVon Doobie: We all all stunned
[14:12] Ze Novikov: lol
[14:12] Gemma Cleanslate: one other i think
[14:12] Herman Bergson: no one minds to go..I guess
[14:12] Gemma Cleanslate: lol
[14:12] Zen Arado: I think it's very hard to define the mind in any language we don't know what consciousness is
[14:12] Cailleach Shan: lol stunned mullets..
[14:12] arabella Ella: we are all reflecting still
[14:12] Gemma Cleanslate: our minds have numbed our bodies and our avatars too
[14:12] AristotleVon Doobie: lol cal
[14:12] Zen Arado: that's the big problem isn't it?
[14:12] Cailleach Shan: Oh boy... consciousness.... now there's a discussion Zen
[14:13] hope63 Shepherd: we are cominmg closer to the essence of our own thoughts about our own wexisrance..
[14:13] Gemma Cleanslate: i really miss what Maph would say about this'
[14:13] Gemma Cleanslate: lol
[14:13] AristotleVon Doobie: yes indeed
[14:13] Herman Bergson: YEs too
[14:13] Gemma Cleanslate: he would love to hear from you
[14:13] Gemma Cleanslate: in im
[14:13] Cailleach Shan: Don't we all .
[14:13] AristotleVon Doobie: he should send in some comments
[14:13] Gemma Cleanslate: about the class
[14:13] Gemma Cleanslate: yes
[14:13] Osrum Sands: defining something to anothere is one thing - but having a deep understanding, which works for ones self, is quiet another
[14:13] Gemma Cleanslate: i agree
[14:13] Gemma Cleanslate: needed in the blog
[14:13] Zen Arado: Me too
[14:14] Gemma Cleanslate: maybe he will comment there if we ask
[14:14] AristotleVon Doobie: yes lets
[14:14] herman Bergson smiles
[14:14] Gemma Cleanslate: i told him i would discuss the class
[14:14] hope63 Shepherd: you are so right os.. thjis is where the problenms start..
[14:14] Osrum Sands: just cause I dont have the language to describe to you my reality - dies not make my reality wrong
[14:14] Gemma Cleanslate: lol
[14:14] Gemma Cleanslate: well
[14:14] Gemma Cleanslate: enough
[14:15] Gemma Cleanslate: i have things to do and places to go before i sleep
[14:15] AristotleVon Doobie: I must go and think awhile
[14:15] Zen Arado: is there a right and wrong realty?
[14:15] Zen Arado: I think there is just reality itself
[14:15] AristotleVon Doobie: Goodbye everone
[14:15] AristotleVon Doobie: whoohoo
[14:15] Herman Bergson: Bye Aristotle
[14:15] Rodney Handrick: No...I don't think so
[14:15] Zen Arado: bye
[14:15] Rodney Handrick: Bye Aristotle
[14:15] Cailleach Shan: Bye Gem..Ari..
[14:15] AristotleVon Doobie: I went compelely out of the roof....
[14:15] hope63 Shepherd: bye ari:)
[14:15] Rodney Handrick: Bye Gem
[14:15] AristotleVon Doobie: bye all
[14:16] hope63 Shepherd: take care gemma..
[14:16] Ze Novikov: bb
[14:16] Herman Bergson: Bye Zen
[14:16] Zen Arado: thanks for the discussion
[14:16] Laila Schuman: baieeee all
[14:16] Ewa Aska: byee all
[14:16] Zen Arado: bye
[14:16] Cailleach Shan: woowwww...... that was a
[14:16] Ludwig John: good night
[14:17] Gray Cardiff: thank you herman bye all
[14:17] hope63 Shepherd: well... i'm glad i can go to bed and sleep over all the questions.. while cal and os will be bothered all day long lol
[14:17] itsme Frederix: Bye Bye guys (and girls) thank you I was welcome - see you next time THX Herman/Henry
[14:17] Rodney Handrick: Bye itsme
[14:17] Cailleach Shan: Herman, may I have the link for your music.... it's great..
[14:17] Osrum Sands: but its a good bothering
[14:17] Anna Parisi: bye all
[14:17] Rodney Handrick: Bye Anna
[14:17] Osrum Sands: really a great way to start the day
[14:17] Herman Bergson: yes....if you have a moment
[14:17] Cailleach Shan: hahaha.... that's true Hope..
[14:18] Osrum Sands: meeing with fine minds from around the world to stir and streach ones existence
[14:18] Herman Bergson: tream&id=525
[14:18] Cailleach Shan: lovely.... thankyou...
[14:19] Cailleach Shan: ok.... must go and start cook..... oh.. such mundane things .... Bye....
[14:19] Herman Bergson: beautiful hair, Arabella..:-)
[14:19] Herman Bergson: Bye Cailleach
[14:19] Kerya Beresford is Online
[14:20] arabella Ella: hi ty herman
[14:20] Rodney Handrick: Herman, is that an online radio station?
[14:20] Cailleach Shan: Bye everyone and thanks..
[14:20] arabella Ella: and apologies again for being late today
[14:20] hope63 Shepherd: thank you for letting us run wild herman:)i like it .may be one day i'll manage to be
[14:20] arabella Ella: i just could not log into the system
[14:20] Osrum Sands: I'm off to celebrate as my youngest daugther has just received an offer of an unie place
[14:20] arabella Ella: but it was really very interesting
[14:20] Osrum Sands: cjheers all
[14:20] Osrum Sands: cheers
[14:20] arabella Ella: and i am disappointed not to have been here feom the start
[14:20] arabella Ella: ciao osrum
[14:20] Herman Bergson: BYe Osrum and congrats..
[14:20] hope63 Shepherd: congatualtions to her os.. what wil she study..
[14:21] arabella Ella: ciao and c u soon
[14:22] Herman Bergson: I think this was the best class so far...:-)

Posted by herman_bergson on 2008-01-10 18:33:50

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