15 Am I still the same person after all those years?

Do you know that situation? You meet an old friend from prep school.Now he has a job and a family. And you say… wow haven't we changed, but you feel he is still that same friend.

Or you page through your photo album and point at some pictures..look..me in diapers, me at highschool, and there..me as a student…always me and yet over time a different looking person.

The person I see in the pictures is the same who I see when I look in the mirror. When are we justified in saying such a thing, and when are we not?

Some philosophers have said that we are never justified, because sameness and change are, in themselves, incompatible. They have argued that it is almost paradoxical to say that something has changed and yet is still the same.

What enables us to say, in spite of the change wrought by time, that person A, before us now, is the person B whom we formerly knew and that person C, also before us now, is not?

There seem to be two criteria to establish the identity of a person. The first option is physical continuity. Someone has in spite of all changes the same body. The second option is the continuity of mind. We remember ourselves through time.

When we have an heart transplant we still say…yes it is me. A change to the body, but I am still me. But suppose we technically succeed in brain transplants and they make a mistake in the hospital and swap brains.

You look in the mirror and all of a sudden you look into the eyes of a woman? That is not me….I am a man! Ok, in Second Life you can doubt that, but in real life we have a problem.

We must conclude that we are inclined to say that not the body , but only a part of it, the brain establishes personal identity. But suppose it is technically possible to rewire the whole brain and after a reset, it is identical, a copy of, the brain of B?

When the two of you look in the mirror, you both look different but you both say. I am Mr. B and you are just a copy of me. A nice scene for the real Mr. Bean I would say.

Identity is a necessary though not a sufficient condition of someone’s being accorded rights or being made to shoulder penalties. This applies in the afterlife, too.

Only if beings who exist after our death can be identified with us can they rightly be held heirs to our merit or blame. So we need to be able to re-identify someone.

Does this all mean that personal identity is in fact not related to the body? This tends to a kind of dualism: we have a body, which we can replace or change and a mind. But as Hume already demonstrated, there is no way to verify that we have such thing called mind.

And ever thought about what is happening when we also believe in reincarnation? It is said to be the same person, who only has gotten a new physical representation.

You may say…WAIT!!! I have the solution: DNA. Although the body changes a lot through time, we always can identify a person by his DNA. So personal identity is yet primarily established by the continuity of the body.

But suppose one day they are able to clone me. An identical copy, same DNA, same brain and brain content ???? Ok…my clone and me, I would say, but suppose I get run over by a bus, then my clone still lives on…or do I live on?

And when we look at the present state of the debate: Since the 1990s the debate about personal identity has come to be focused on the correctness of the animalist view.

The animalist thesis is that we are animals of a certain kind, that
is, human beings, members of the species Homo sapiens. The thesis is not that all persons are animals.

The possibility of persons that are not animals, but gods, angels, or inorganic robots is allowed. But the animalist does insist that we are human animals and as such have the persistence conditions of human animals.

The second claim made by the animalist is that such persistence conditions involve no form of psychological continuity whatsoever and are entirely biological.

Well, The funny thing of this whole debate is, that I personally have not the slightest problem with establishing identity in my practical life.

So what are these philosophers debating about? Maybe it is not your favorite subject, but this philosophical debate shows us again,

that what looks so obvious in practical daily life, creates many question marks when you look for a rock-solid justification in an epistemological sense. In other words, philosophy keeps you sharp :-)


The Discussion

[13:24] herman Bergson: So much on personal identity :-)
[13:24] herman Bergson: If you have a question or remark ...:-)
[13:25] Zen Arado: I think PI is a useful fiction
[13:25] herman Bergson: a useful fiction?
[13:25] Myriam Brianna: nicely worded
[13:25] Gemma Cleanslate: hmmm
[13:25] Abraxas Nagy: mmm yes
[13:26] Zen Arado: it doesn't exist but is useful fo assigning responsibility for actions etc
[13:26] herman Bergson: The thing is,....I tend to agree to that statement
[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes, Zen, that is the quintessence.....who is responsible?
[13:26] Zen Arado: that human with its identifying marks
[13:27] herman Bergson: Like we are bringing to court people that committed attrocities in the 40s in the camps
[13:27] Zen Arado: rather than another one
[13:27] Lovey Dayafter: why not bring them to court?
[13:27] herman Bergson: My impression of the whole debate is that there is no clear answer to this question of PI
[13:28] Zen Arado: I think this is a different issue than the idea of some core essence or soul existing though
[13:28] Gemma Cleanslate: oops
[13:28] Repose Lionheart: agreed
[13:28] Zen Arado: ust being able to identify one human from another
[13:29] herman Bergson: yes ..in practical life that isnt such a big problem
[13:29] AristotleVon Doobie: if 'you think and therefore you are' then you must be what you think with....is tath the biological brain that decays or is the mind separte form the brain and is really where our identity resides?
[13:29] herman Bergson: the philosophical debate is more about the epistemological justification of the concept of identity
[13:29] Zen Arado: but brain cells are always being replaced
[13:29] Zen Arado: agree Herman
[13:30] herman Bergson: As far as I know, many cells in the body are replaced, but not the cells of the central nervous system...I may be mistaken tho
[13:30] Zen Arado: I heard that too somewhere
[13:30] Zen Arado: but it sounds doubtful?
[13:30] AristotleVon Doobie: when you speak with that long lost friend, what is it that connects to make you certain of his/her identity?
[13:30] Alarice Beaumont: i don't think so
[13:31] Myriam Brianna: they are replaced
[13:31] herman Bergson: Damaged muscle cells are replaced...a damaged brain doesn grow a new part
[13:31] Repose Lionheart: can we say anything more than, functionally, PI is a spatially and temporally distributed phenomenon?
[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes Aristotle....that is the mystical part...
[13:31] Zen Arado: but its connections are always changing?
[13:31] Lovey Dayafter: you have to ask them first if they are that long lost friend
[13:31] herman Bergson: in this case you would be inclined to say: shared memories
[13:32] Myriam Brianna: that is another problem - the brain is not only tissue but tissue that is arranged in a very sophisticated way
[13:32] Frederick Hansome: but new connections between brain cells are constantly being laid down
[13:32] Myriam Brianna: so a loss of tissue cannot "heal"
[13:32] Zen Arado: yes
[13:32] AristotleVon Doobie: I suspect those precious things of the mind do not change and can be recognized
[13:32] Myriam Brianna: yes
[13:32] herman Bergson: yes....
[13:33] Frederick Hansome: the beliefs held in the brain can change, making us a different person
[13:33] herman Bergson: So intuitively we are inclined to take bodily continuity and psychological continuity as sufficient evidence for personal identity
[13:33] herman Bergson: and it works,
[13:34] Alarice Beaumont: but with experience.. life exp... a person changes
[13:34] herman Bergson: but when we dig into it deeper we get into all kinds of problems
[13:34] Gemma Cleanslate: as usual
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: the brain can become defective and become a obtcle for our mind to communicate our idenity I tink
[13:34] AristotleVon Doobie: obstacle
[13:34] herman Bergson: There you have a brain and a mind Aristotle....a clear Dualism
[13:34] herman Bergson: Are you Cartesian?
[13:34] Zen Arado: we can have amnesia
[13:35] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, I feel it is our nature state, dualism
[13:35] herman Bergson: yes Zen...what about that....who are we when we have lost all memoeries....
[13:35] herman Bergson: Are we the same person?
[13:35] Frederick Hansome: dualism is an error, in my belief system
[13:35] Frederick Hansome: the mind is the way the brain functions, not separate from it
[13:35] Lovey Dayafter: what is dualism?
[13:36] herman Bergson: Dualism is the thesis that we have a mind and a body
[13:36] herman Bergson: and in the extreme version...
[13:36] Violette McMinnar: I believe in dualism :o)
[13:36] herman Bergson: the mind is made of something different than the body
[13:36] AristotleVon Doobie: your ancient brain is set in its primal functions and does not refine but you cerebral function does
[13:36] Lovey Dayafter: we have to have a mind and a body to exist
[13:37] Frederick Hansome: the mind is made of something different than the body...like what, herman?
[13:37] AristotleVon Doobie: ther are codependent yes Lovey
[13:37] herman Bergson: yes Lovey, but that doesnt imply that mind and body are two different substances
[13:37] herman Bergson: But that debate already goes on for centuries in philosophy ^_^
[13:38] Violette McMinnar: the body is on a gross platform and the mind is on a subtle platform, but still both are material... according to vedas
[13:38] herman Bergson: I think I can agree with Zen that Personal Identity is a useful fiction
[13:38] Frederick Hansome: mind cannot have substance, any more than an "idea" or "concept" has substance
[13:38] AristotleVon Doobie: my only evidence that the mind is separate form the brain and the body is through critical analysis, nothing concrete
[13:38] herman Bergson: kind of epistemological pragmatism
[[13:39] Violette McMinnar: hard to perceive the mind with gross material senses
[13:39] herman Bergson: but on the other hand...the debate shows that in fact we cant answer the question at all
[13:39] AristotleVon Doobie: not at all
[13:39] Myriam Brianna: gotta run *waves*
[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: bye Myriam
[13:40] herman Bergson: Bye Myriam
[13:40] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye
[13:40] Zen Arado: Bye Myriam
[13:40] Abraxas Nagy: ...Hasta La Vista....
[13:40] Abraxas Nagy: Myriam
[13:40] Abraxas Nagy: ...BABY!
[13:40] Abraxas Nagy: oops
[13:40] herman Bergson: So I think we can end our discussion with an inconclusive
[13:40] Lovey Dayafter: some things can't and shouldn't be answered
[13:40] AristotleVon Doobie: of course I believe that the mind is the essence of who we are and not material at all
[13:41] AristotleVon Doobie: essence
[13:41] Zen Arado: it is perhaps wishful thinking
[13:41] herman Bergson: shouldnt be answered, Lovey? Who orders that?
[13:41] Zen Arado: religions need the concept to guarantee life after death
[13:42] Zen Arado: otherwise there is nothing to have life after death
[13:42] AristotleVon Doobie: :)) give me all the data please and let me decide what needs to be ansered :)))
[13:42] Repose Lionheart: not Buddhism
[13:42] Frederick Hansome: religions can't "guarantee" anotner life
[13:42] Zen Arado: true
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Zen, and in Christianity at the end of times....we all arise agian....but how? as a boy, a baby or an old man?
[13:42] Frederick Hansome: wishful thinking only
[13:42] Lovey Dayafter: if we had all the answers there would be no faith
[13:42] herman Bergson: ANd like I pointed at reincarnation....even more questionable
[13:43] Zen Arado: yes agree
[13:43] AristotleVon Doobie: if I am forced to imagine an afterlife I shall be a fierce personage in it :)
[13:43] herman Bergson: Well Lovey, dont worry.....it showed in former lectures that our whole knowledge system is in fact built on beliefs only
[13:43] : llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found
[13:44] Repose Lionheart: ahhh
[13:44] AristotleVon Doobie: yes, Herman everyone's knowledge is unique to theselves
[13:44] Frederick Hansome: but some beliefs are more believable than others
[13:44] Lovey Dayafter: then why are we here trying to prove truths lol
[13:44] herman Bergson: that is true Frederick...that is what Popper already proofed
[13:45] Zen Arado: beliefs give us a kind of security
[13:45] AristotleVon Doobie: even when you discover the truth, (if you even could) it would change in the next moment
[13:45] Zen Arado: but reality is groundless I think
[13:45] Zen Arado: exactly Ari
[13:46] herman Bergson: I think that we have seen that here many times....
[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: but it is better to be close to the truth that woefully ignorant of it
[13:46] herman Bergson: the answer to one question creates immediatly three new questions
[13:46] Zen Arado: if there is truth?
[13:46] Zen Arado: a Platonic idea ?
[13:46] herman Bergson: We have discussed that extensively here Zen :-)
[13:46] AristotleVon Doobie: yes Zen, if truth even exists
[13:46] Zen Arado: I'm sure
[13:46] Violette McMinnar: what if beliefs are a result of something you have already understood let say in the past life thats why you have a set of them in this one and learn new ones, this way a belief would not be what we think a belief is
[13:47] Zen Arado: sorry I don't get here very often :)
[13:47] AristotleVon Doobie: sounds like inate knowlede Violette
[13:47] herman Bergson: Well Violette, that is a thesis we never can verify or falsify....so we cant do anything with it
[13:47] Lovey Dayafter: wb
[13:48] Violette McMinnar: yes Aristotle, I have beliefs I was born with
[13:48] herman Bergson: Such ideas sound appealing, but in fact are empty
[13:48] Violette McMinnar: i knew them before I even could name them
[13:48] AristotleVon Doobie: I personally am a believer in the 'clean slate'
[13:48] Frederick Hansome: if beliefs cannot be proved, does that mean we should have no beliefs?
[13:48] Gemma Cleanslate: there are many that believer that i know some
[13:49] Zen Arado: I know ppl who say they remember events from
past lives
[13:49] Violette McMinnar: i do not believe that we are born as a white page
[13:49] herman Bergson: Even when you assume innate ideas there is no way to explain where they came from
[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: well if you believe in reincarnation there is
[13:49] herman Bergson: Neither did Kant, Violette, and many other philosophers with him
[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: but again it is belief
[13:49] herman Bergson: to begin with Plato himself
[13:49] Gemma Cleanslate: based on some sort of faith'
[13:50] herman Bergson: That is the point, Gemma :-)
[13:50] Violette McMinnar: yes when you accept reincarnation you know you got them in your previous lifes
[13:50] Lovey Dayafter: doesn't matter where the ideas come from as long as they are there
[13:50] AristotleVon Doobie: you beliefs are for you individual benefit, if you receive comfort and guidence from them who can argue....
[13:50] herman Bergson: But that brings tons of new questions Violette...
[13:50] Violette McMinnar: well I would like to know WHY i was born believing in reincarnation and my sister did not
[13:50] AristotleVon Doobie: it is when they are presented as the gospel truth that it is offensive
[13:50] herman Bergson: what ideas and beliefs, why those beliefs and so on
[13:51] Lovey Dayafter: it's up to the individual
[13:51] Lovey Dayafter: we're not all alike are we?
[13:51] herman Bergson: you cant proof that you were born with the belief in reincarnation
[13:51] Violette McMinnar: I know it
[13:51] herman Bergson: You believe it
[13:52] Violette McMinnar: knew what it was before i knew the word reincarnation, in fact 16 years before
[13:52] Zen Arado: Buddhists also say that belief in PI can cause us problems
[13:52] Violette McMinnar: nope it was clear like a water tome
[13:52] Gemma Cleanslate: oh??
[13:52] Alarice Beaumont: i don't believe in incarnation
[13:52] Abraxas Nagy: neither do I
[13:52] Zen Arado: we erect this 'I' out of fear and then have to protect it
[13:52] Lovey Dayafter: who cares what the Buddhists believe?
[13:52] AristotleVon Doobie: I 'feel' certain things are real, if that is believing
[13:52] Zen Arado: just pointing it out
[13:52] Violette McMinnar: the fact that many do not believe in it does not make it false
[13:53] Abraxas Nagy: the problem of new souls
[13:53] AristotleVon Doobie: donkeys having the ability to fly can not be disproven
[13:53] herman Bergson: That is not the point Violette
[13:54] herman Bergson: New souls...that is indeed an interesting issue...
[13:54] Alarice Beaumont: nope.. that's not what i mend violette
[13:54] herman Bergson: if we all reincarnate and world population increases, we have a shortage of souls
[13:54] Violette McMinnar: what new souls problems?
[13:54] Gemma Cleanslate: where do they come from
[13:55] Zen Arado: the idea of a soul is very irrational
[13:55] Gemma Cleanslate: if there is reincarnation where do the new souls come from and why
[13:55] herman Bergson: The thing is...all these souls are personal identities
[13:55] herman Bergson: but they dont remeber when reincarnated...
[13:55] Zen Arado: how does it interact with a physical body if it is an immaterial substance?
[13:55] Lovey Dayafter: everybody believes different, that makes the world interesting
[13:55] herman Bergson: so is the reincarnated soul the same identity as the soul before his reincarnation?
[13:56] Alarice Beaumont: well.. the soul is immaterial too?
[13:56] Frederick Hansome: my belief is that there are enough problems and challenges in this life without concerning ourselves with past or future lives
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: but in philosophy that is not acceptable :-)
[13:56] Repose Lionheart: the Buddhist doctrine of the 5 skandas accounts for that
[13:56] Gemma Cleanslate: the beliefs that is
[13:56] Zen Arado: yes Repose
[13:56] Lovey Dayafter: what is not acceptable?
[13:56] Violette McMinnar: to me the soul is always the same, mind stores the memories but we forget previous lifes, some techniques may help us to get a glimpse of previous lifes
[13:56] Zen Arado: we are just a bunch of mental and physical properties
[13:57] Gemma Cleanslate: the idea of believing as part of philosphical idea
[13:57] herman Bergson: Yes Zen, I think so too....as Hume himself defined it:-)
[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: gotta run folks.....Herman a great lecture, I hate to leave this fine discussion
[13:57] herman Bergson: But there is now a new discussion....which I dont want to persue.....
[13:57] Lovey Dayafter: explain what you mean Gemma?
[13:57] AristotleVon Doobie: good byt all
[13:58] herman Bergson: the idea of body - mind - soul......
[13:58] Zen Arado: Bye Ari
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: ...Hasta La Vista....
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: Ari
[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye
[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: ari
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: ...BABY!
[13:58] Alarice Beaumont: bye bye Ari :-)
[13:58] Gemma Cleanslate: oops
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: oops
[13:58] oola Neruda: baiee ari
[13:58] Abraxas Nagy: I keep forgetting
[13:58] herman Bergson: That is a completely different discourse :-)
[13:59] herman Bergson: So..may I thank you for this interesting discussion :-)
[13:59] Frederick Hansome: Plato's Academy will be considering mjnd vs brain next Monday
[13:59] Alarice Beaumont: need to go too.. sorry .. bye everybody
[13:59] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye
[13:59] Gemma Cleanslate: alarice
[13:59] herman Bergson: Thankk you all for participating....:-)
[13:59] Violette McMinnar: thanks
[13:59] Zen Arado: Bye
[13:59] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^
[13:59] Lovey Dayafter: TY herman
[13:59] Violette McMinnar: bye all
[13:59] Gemma Cleanslate: i will try to come next week
[13:59] Zen Arado: thanks for discussion
[13:59] oola Neruda: baiee all as you go
[14:00] Zen Arado: sorry I can't get here more often
[14:00] Repose Lionheart: Thank you, Professor
[14:00] Zen Arado: bye
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: danke herman! ich GLAUBE an diese klasse und an dich
[14:00] herman Bergson: Bye all who are leaving :-)
[14:00] Gemma Cleanslate: Bye