So, our previous lecture ended with the question of what the concept "natural right" actually refers to. In the discussion, I wondered, whether you can speak of having rights if you live alone on an island.
In our quest for the meaning of "Freedom" we have moved from not being a slave in a political sense to a more individualistic concept of personal freedom in relation to a government.
Before continuing our journey through history some conceptual clarification might be in place at this stage because the concept of personal freedom in relation to freedom, in general, becomes part of the debate.
Let's assume two starting points. One: homo sapiens is a social animal and reliant on the group. Two: his goal in life is self-realization,
The theory of self-realization is that a life of excellence is based on the actualization of human potentialities to put it in a concise way.
Rights are moral claims of individuals recognized by society. Duties are moral debts or obligations of individuals recognized by society.
In fact, there are no rights or duties without living in a society. It is like the situation of living on an uninhabited island or not.
Rights reside in individuals. They have rights to certain things which are necessary for their self-realization.
Duties are moral obligations, on the part of other individuals, to respect those rights. The individuals also having certain rights are under a moral obligation to use them well for the common good.
Rights and duties are ultimately based upon the same moral laws and relations. Society grants certain rights to its individual members for their own good and the good of society.
A police officer has the right to use violence, if necessary for the good of society. A baker has the right to ask a compensation, for instance, money, for a bread you want to have.
We have to conclude from this point of view that man has no right to anything by himself. Think again of living on an inhabited island.
Society concedes certain rights to him, which are conducive to the social good. A person cannot claim anything for himself alone apart from society.
The moral rights of individuals are protected by social conscience or public opinion. They are not necessarily enforced by the State like legal rights.
Moral rights are conceded to individuals by society for their self-realization, like the right to live or the right of physical integrity.
They are indispensable for the realization of the highest personal good and the common good. Rights and duties are correlative to each other.
Duties are moral obligations. Every right brings an obligation with it. When one man has a right, other men are under a moral obligation to respect it, and he himself is under a moral obligation to use it for the common good.
Rights and duties are meaningless apart from society. There are no rights antecedents to society.
In other words, you only can claim to have rights when you are a member of society and these rights have to be related to the common good of society,
for instance, we all have the right of speaking freely our opinion because freedom of the press and democracy is the common good of the society we are a member of.
Or let's have a look at our right to freedom. Self-realization is the highest good. It is realized by a person’s will.
So he should be free to exercise his will in order to realize his supreme end. He should not be coerced by anybody. He should not be a slave to anybody.
Freedom means restricted freedom. Absolute and unrestricted freedom amounts to licentiousness.
In a well-ordered community, an individual should be allowed to realize his supreme end by the free exercise of his will in so far as it is consistent with the maintenance of the social order. Absolute freedom means anarchy and chaos.
Freedom is granted in a well-ordered state. The right of freedom brings with it the obligation of using one’s freedom for the general good.
What socio-political organization of the state do we need to get all this done: democracy still seems to me to be the best solution.
Thank you for your attention....
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
The Discussion
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:22] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Thank you, professor.
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:23] herman Bergson: A bit complex maybe, but we are talking about the relations between rights, duties and society
[13:23] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): It strikes me, however, that your last part sounds distinctly illiberal. It is a straw man that absolute freedom means licentiousness and brings chaos - nobody claims the freedom to do absolutely anything you want.
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we have the right to speak freely, but that doesn't mean we have to say anything we want
[13:24] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Even the most hard-nosed libertarians agree that one's freedom ends where others' freedom begins.
[13:24] herman Bergson: true
[13:25] herman Bergson: It is only meant in the Hobbesian way
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone is online.
[13:25] herman Bergson: The need for a social contract
[13:25] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Given this, why is freedom conceived as a license to do what you wish only if in accordance with the social harmony, say, of the Chinese government?
[13:26] herman Bergson: That is not the point I think...there are first the individual human rights to consider
[13:27] herman Bergson: When the government violates human rights we have a problem with freedom of the individual
[13:27] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Mmmm... if we don't want the government shutting down every shred of individual liberty, we need a concept of freedom that is NOT contingent of what society wants.
[13:28] herman Bergson: However, the Chinese goverrnment recently declared that they didn't agree with how the Western World describes human rights
[13:28] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): In what way?
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well in china u ca NOT say what u want
[13:28] herman Bergson: Indeed Sinne....that is whay freedom and rights primarily is a moral issue
[13:28] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Let me guess, they define human rights as something held by groups of people?
[13:29] herman Bergson: That could very well be the case...the primacy of the group....fits in with Chinese culture
[13:30] herman Bergson: Not as an individual right indeed Bejiita
[13:30] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): That is the tactics used by every collectivist ever when they try to shut down and deny people individual rights.
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if u talk about human rights in china ur thrown into jail
[13:31] herman Bergson: I think it is a typical Western thing to focus on the INDIVIDUAL and his rights
[13:31] herman Bergson: at least that was kind of what China complained about, if I am not mistaken
[13:31] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): In general, there is a difference between authoritarian states and the open society: Authoritarians focus on rights that force others to pay for them: Right to food, right to housing, right to health care, etc.
[13:31] herman Bergson: So the question is.....
[13:32] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): While open societies focus on liberties, i.e. things the government is NOT allowed to do to individuals.
[13:32] herman Bergson: what makes the individual and his rights the starting point of ethics? Why is he prior to the group, the tribe????
[13:33] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Tell me, professor... have you ever experienced something as a group, or just as an individual IN that group?
[13:34] herman Bergson: I guess I am terribly biased in this :-)
[13:34] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): I guess so too. =)
[13:34] herman Bergson: I am not the "group" type :-))
[13:34] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): The truth is, we ARE individuals. We experience things as individuals. We act as individuals. We gain and lose as individuals.
[13:35] herman Bergson: But yet it leaves open the question...what has primacy in a society...the values of a group or those of the individual?
[13:35] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Groups are important... but if the individual is put AFTER the group, we have only tyranny.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:35] herman Bergson: No problem to agree with that Sinne ^_^
[13:36] herman Bergson: It was already the problem of the old Greeks....
[13:36] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): So we need to base moral philosophy and related fields on the individual, and refuse to accept any such concept that starts out from the group.
[13:36] herman Bergson: They fought against the rich elite that supported a tyrnat for instance
[13:37] herman Bergson: I agree..... but tell that orthodox and dogmatic believers of any religion or ideology
[13:37] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Note also... since every member of those groups IS an individual, basing these things on individuals will help them too.
[13:38] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Well... there are friends, and there are enemies, professor. Some people will always be destructive, and our only option is to fight and destroy them.
[13:38] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Fanatics top that list.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:39] herman Bergson: That is what history shows us indeed, Sinne
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ye
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): s
[13:39] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Once you stop considering if your actions are right or not, you become a rabid dog, and you do not make friends with rabid dogs. You kill them.
[13:40] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Sorry to be harsh here.
[13:40] herman Bergson: Since 1989 and the collapse of the Soviet Union there was a feeling that our sense of individualism. individual freedom and democracy had "won"
[13:40] herman Bergson: Like Fukuyama said...the end of history (as it had been)
[13:41] herman Bergson: And I wonder......is it really the case?
[13:41] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Fukuyama was naive. Evil and authoritarianism are part of the human psyche.
[13:41] herman Bergson: If I look at the country that claims/ed to be THE defender of democracy......
[13:42] herman Bergson: it is corrupting almost every form of democracy
[13:42] herman Bergson: just because of....... I really don't know
[13:42] herman Bergson: It looks so self destructive
[13:43] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Not buying it, professor. America is many things. It is far from perfect. But it does mean what it says. It has been losing its way for a while, about 20 years.
[13:43] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): With Putin invading Ukraine, it seems ready to step up.
[13:43] herman Bergson: That is my hope too Sinne...that perspective
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and Putin is on his way throwing the world back into the dark ages of WW2 again. I just hope that this will not happen in the end
[13:44] herman Bergson: Putin has miscalculated greatly....
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we can only hope
[13:44] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): War is part of the human condition. We either face the issues, or we push them further down the line, making the conflagration bigger when it comes.
[13:44] herman Bergson: in stead of a divided Western World he has brought it together again, revitalized Nato :-))
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still all human suffering, murdering covilians in 10000s, such barbarism!
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and it have made me really hard to feel happy in general
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well i cant do anything
[13:45] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Yes, Bejiita... authoritarianism is evil, dangerous, and terrible. We have accepted it for decades.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:45] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...I can't watch the News anymore without feeling sad and powerless
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so true
[13:45] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): We gave them time to grow strong.
[13:46] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): If we had torn out the Soviet security apparatus immediately after 91 played out, Russia would have been our best friend today.
[13:46] herman Bergson: The growth even had the blessings of "The Stable Genius"
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Putin have been in power since before 2000
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): 22 years to prepare his evil plan
[13:47] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Not to mention letting China join the WTO... GODDAMN that was stupid.
[13:47] herman Bergson: To some extend we succeeded in Poland, Tsjechy and a few other countries
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bub did we see the signs back then?
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well NEVER trust anyone from KGB i say
[13:48] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): We sure as heck saw them in 89...
[13:48] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): If we in the West had refused to give one single measly cent to ANY authoritarian country after WWII, the world would be almost all democratic today.
[13:49] herman Bergson: I guess The Western World was too happy with its "victory| in those days
[13:49] herman Bergson: Ready to start a neo-liberalism
[13:49] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): The other big fault was not even trying to provide a vision for where the West should go in the future.
[13:49] herman Bergson: Using a trickle down philosophy with respect to former socialist countries, I guess
[13:50] herman Bergson: Unfortunately that was maximization of profits by big companies, Sinne, not hindered by any moral considerations
[13:51] herman Bergson: Ethics was removed from the curriculum of MBA education for instance
[13:51] herman Bergson: Friedman was the new pope
[13:52] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano) nods. "In some degree, yes. Now, these companies cozy up to authoritarian regimes, without seeing the direct threat to their existence offered by the regimes."
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): if there is money to make they dont care if selling stuff to the devil
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as long the money rolls into their fat pockets
[13:52] herman Bergson: Indeed Sinne
[13:52] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Ask Jack Ma what happened to him and his company.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they dont care about that
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): MONEY MONEY MONEY MORE MORE MOOOOORE
[13:52] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): They should. Because they would be next.
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): is all they care about
[13:53] herman Bergson: Running a company also has to deal with moral issues and ethics....but unfortunately the neoliberral religion only knew the god Greed an Profit
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly
[13:54] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): The issue today is that we do not live as we learn, and don't play to our strengths: Democracy, transparency, liberties, and competition.
[13:54] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Why would it be a good idea to let companies fight one another using anticompetitive measures???
[13:54] herman Bergson: Indeed...we are in a situation to know better, but we seem to be slow learners :-)
[13:54] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Why is intellectual property monopolies good when monopoly destroys profits?
[13:55] herman Bergson: Look at Big Pharma...
[13:55] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Many leftists fail to see the absolutely central role that competition plays.
[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:56] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Yes. Each of the pharma companies were national, publicly owned entities designed to provide drugs in case of war.
[13:56] herman Bergson: It isn't a matter of left or right...it is a matter of common sense, being reasonable, being willing to share
[13:56] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Then in the 90s, they were allowed to merge, so they started to do so.
[13:57] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): In parallel with this development, they started producing fewer and fewer and fewer drugs.
[13:57] herman Bergson: We know the ensuing horros stories...the opiate addiction of so many people for instance
[13:57] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Why should they, when they survive just fine on profits off their IP monopolies on OLD drugs???
[13:57] herman Bergson: Indeed....
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): big problem
[13:58] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Kill off IP law. Restore competition. Nobody will stop you.
[13:59] herman Bergson: Economists like Michael Sandel and others have told it all.....but the greed is still a strong drive
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): also patents are used completley wrong, instead of helping startups they are used by the already big ones to stop anyone ever inventing anything better so they can just sit there rolling their thibs while development and invention stops
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Apple tried to kill of Android for ex
[13:59] herman Bergson: and for what....growth and more dividends for waht???
[13:59] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Greed was never the problem. Monopoly was. If it's possible, greedy people will seek it.
[13:59] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): so they could be the only spartphone maker ever
[14:00] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Again, shut down IP law completely.
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[14:00] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): We don't need ANY monopolies.
[14:00] herman Bergson: What is IP Law, Sinne?
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): more cooperation though, companies helping each other to create better products so that both they and the customer benefit equally
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): win win
[14:01] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): IP law is a collection of international laws designed to grow the public domain by giving creators exclusive use rights.
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and then customer will return and buy more stuff
[14:01] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Needless to say, IP laws are NOT growing the public domain now.
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats important for me when i buy stuff no matter if its a hamburger or a device ect
[14:02] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the company should be a serious one minding their customers and not just PROFIT PROFIT PROFIT
[14:02] herman Bergson: Have to look into that subject, Sinne...sounds interesting
[14:02] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Read up on how patents, trademarks, copyright etc started.
[14:02] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): They are very far from that today.
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed used the wrong way
[14:03] herman Bergson: yes....could be educational indeed :-))
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): to halt development and secure profit without having to do anything cause noone can invent anything better then or they are sued
[14:03] herman Bergson: Well...I guess our brains are reaching a melting point atm :-)
[14:03] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Could be a good topic for next season. =)
[14:04] herman Bergson: I'd suggest to cool down and conclude our discussion....
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Open source for ex have caused development to explode
[14:04] herman Bergson: Who knows, Sinne
[14:04] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): game engines, 3d printing ext and also EVERYONE can make use of it, not just big companies
[14:04] herman Bergson: Thank you for this interesting discussion.....
[14:04] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Thank you
[14:05] herman Bergson: Time to relax....
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well speaking of games..
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:05] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[14:05] herman Bergson: You were distractiong in a wonderful way Sinne ^_^
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i have not 3d printed any more plupps but
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[14:05] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): Good. =)
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its comming though
[14:05] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[14:05] herman Bergson: Class dismissed....
[14:05] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): If you guys haven't played What remains of Edith Finch, do so.
[14:06] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that sounds familiar
[14:06] herman Bergson: What is that, SInne?
[14:06] Sinne (sousinne.ceriano): It's a short, lovely game themed on death and stories.
No comments:
Post a Comment