It sounds contradictory, but is there such a thing as 'legal injustice'? Consider global CO2 emissions and the animal suffering that has already taken place.
No law prohibits them, and yet many people experience them as a form of injustice. It is illegal to endanger fellow human beings, but global CO2 emissions pose a serious threat to humanity.
It is illegal to abuse animals, but the practice of intensive livestock farming and animal transport is another matter.
The fight against this perceived injustice is not led by the government, but rather by opinion makers, journalists, and activists, and often by ordinary people in general.
But there is a difficulty here. Take for instance the current Israeli-Palestinian situation. On May 15, 1948, the British Mandate for Palestine expired. In anticipation of this, the Jewish Agency declared the state of Israel a day earlier.
US President Truman recognized Israel within half an hour; formal recognition would not come until 1949. The Soviet Union and almost all of its satellite states, as well as South Africa and Ireland, recognized Israel almost immediately.
Who is today committing injustice in this conflict? I will not discuss this matter here but this shows how much perceived injustice depends on place and time.
Laws are adapted to changing norms over time, but usually only after long-term extra-parliamentary actions.
Another example. For centuries, the death penalty was considered a just form of retribution in Europe. But from the nineteenth century onwards, the tide turned and the death penalty was experienced as unjust by a growing number of people.
In the meantime, the death penalty has disappeared from the European Union, but this is not the case in many other countries. For many, resistance to deep-rooted injustice is one of the most important forms of giving meaning to life.
There are many historical examples of fighting injustice. A documented example is for instance the three slave revolts in the Roman Empire in the first century B.C.
There are many other examples of revolt of the common people, especially farmers, against exploiting rulers. They happened in China, India, and Europe.
Serfdom was a strongly felt injustice among peasants and this was the main reason for the German primitive war (1524-1525). The uprising failed and the peasants lost almost all their rights until 1848.
In the 19th century, there were slave revolts in Haiti and Jamaica, which led to freedom and independence from England for the people there.
Here too, active resistance to injustice and the pursuit of a just world were unmistakable forms of fighting for a meaningful life.
From the twentieth century onwards, the fight against injustice was also successful in many other areas. In several countries, for example, this applied to the fight against child labor, the fight for universal suffrage, and the fight for equal treatment of men and women.
However, all of the injustices mentioned were initially considered legal. The fight against slavery, colonialism, women's suffrage, and equal treatment was therefore also a fight against the law that was applicable at the time.
This fight could not be fought in parliament, at least not alone. After all, those directly interested were not in the people's representation, while the sitting representatives had no interest in change.
Without an extra-parliamentary fight, everything would have remained the same and nowadays our modern news media confront us on a daily basis with fights against injustice from all over the world.
At times you may feel a little desperate because of this global unrest and may ask "What good does it bring?". It does. Think of abolishing slavery, women's suffrage and equal treatment,
and there is one remarkable progress to mention. Since the 20th century, we not only fight injustice against humans but also against cruelty and injustice against animals.
Thank you for your attention again.....
Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
TABLE OF CONTENT -----------------------------------------------------------------
1 - 100 Philosophers 9 May 2009 Start of
2 - 25+ Women Philosophers 10 May 2009 this blog
3 - 25 Adventures in Thinking 10 May 2009
4 - Modern Theories of Ethics 29 Oct 2009
5 - The Ideal State 24 Febr 2010 / 234
6 - The Mystery of the Brain 3 Sept 2010 / 266
7 - The Utopia of the Free Market 16 Febr 2012 / 383
8. - The Aftermath of Neo-liberalism 5 Sept 2012 / 413
9. - The Art Not to Be an Egoist 6 Nov 2012 / 426
10 - Non-Western Philosophy 29 May 2013 / 477
11 - Why Science is Right 2 Sept 2014 / 534
12 - A Philosopher looks at Atheism 1 Jan 2015 / 557
13 - EVIL, a philosophical investigation 17 Apr 2015 / 580
14 - Existentialism and Free Will 2 Sept 2015 / 586
15 - Spinoza 2 Sept 2016 / 615
16 - The Meaning of Life 13 Febr 2017 / 637
17 - In Search of my Self 6 Sept 2017 / 670
18 - The 20th Century Revisited 3 Apr 2018 / 706
19 - The Pessimist 11 Jan 2020 / 819
20 - The Optimist 9 Febr 2020 / 824
21 - Awakening from a Neoliberal Dream 8 Oct 2020 / 872
22 - A World Full of Patterns 1 Apr 2021 / 912
23 - The Concept of Freedom 8 Jan 2022 / 965
24 - Materialism 7 Sept 2022 / 1011
25 - Historical Materialism 5 Oct 2023 / 1088
26 - The Bonobo and the Atheist 9 Jan 2024 / 1102
27 - Artificial Intelligence 9 Feb 2024 / 1108
28 - Why Am I Here 6 Sept 2024 / 1139
[13:17] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[13:17] bergfrau Apfelbaum: why is war legal?
[13:17] bergfrau Apfelbaum: and! now they want to ban smoking outdoors! what about MY FREE WILL?
[13:18] bergfrau Apfelbaum: grr
[13:18] herman Bergson: Because you claim that you have the right to defend yourself
[13:18] bergfrau Apfelbaum: aha
[13:18] herman Bergson: Ban smoking outdoors Bergie? In Austria?
[13:19] Max Chatnoir: Everywhere outdoors?
[13:19] Max Chatnoir: No smoking areas?
[13:20] herman Bergson: I guess the argument is that a person has a right to a healthy environment
[13:20] bergfrau Apfelbaum: they are talking about banning it in all of europe. meanwhile "they only recommend it" but I am sure it will become a law. it's sickening! as if there are no other problems
[13:20] herman Bergson: And it is a proven fact that tobacco smoke IS unhealthy
[13:21] bergfrau Apfelbaum: I understand that in parks and everywhere where there are children. But if I'm not allowed to smoke in the garden of a restaurant at 10 p.m., I'll stay at home.
[13:21] herman Bergson: The fact that there are many other problems is no argument to ignore some other problem
[13:22] herman Bergson: But I agree that there are more serious problems in our society than smoking outdoors
[13:22] bergfrau Apfelbaum: War is also unhealthy, for so many innocent and children
[13:22] Max Chatnoir: And destructive!
[13:23] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yes
[13:23] herman Bergson: As is threatening the lives of others
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, ok Israel got attacked, that does not gove them right to murder the entire palestinian population!
[13:24] bergfrau Apfelbaum: then you have to ban farting outdoors too.
[13:24] Max Chatnoir: Unfortunately the people who start the wars aren't usually the people who are in combat.
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Bergie
[13:24] herman Bergson: But these days we are past the territorial expansion reason to start a war.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its insane that these things still goes on today
[13:25] bergfrau Apfelbaum: mhm
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Like Q said in Star Trek. "YOU DONT BELONG IN SPACE CAUSE YOU ARE STILL SAVAGE BEASTS!" Turns out he was right, its soon 2025 and we are still blowing each other up like never before
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :(
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): why?
[13:25] herman Bergson: Russia like China claims territory as theirs, Ukraine, Taiwan,....it is so medieval....
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes!
[13:26] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yes wääh!
[13:27] herman Bergson: People have rights, but it seems that States transcend people's rights with their alleged rights
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Russia and China areen't big enough
[13:27] herman Bergson: Like China now is claiming possession of the Chinese Sea....
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and Taiwan
[13:28] herman Bergson: I find it so weird...how can you actually claim ownership of a piece of earth at all?
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm thats true
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's weird yes
[13:29] bergfrau Apfelbaum: or to the moon and Mars?
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): was just thinking about that
[13:29] herman Bergson: The earth isn't private property...we just happen to live on it....we invented the idea of private property
[13:30] bergfrau Apfelbaum: mhm
[13:30] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): Competition, control, aggression, violence....these were all adaptive behaviors in our past that ensured our survival. We have not yet outgrown them.
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think private property is a very old idea
[13:30] herman Bergson: True Sooki
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its the people we want to own i guess like China want to eradicate all human rights and freedom/democracy on the entire planet and Russia/Putin want to do the same
[13:31] bergfrau Apfelbaum: oh! hi Sookie :-)
[13:31] herman Bergson: In a way it is biological....a lot of animals claim their territory....the area that guarantees their food and survival
[13:31] herman Bergson: But if you look at this planet, you would believe that we are past that primitive stage
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:32] herman Bergson: Oh..by the way.....
[13:32] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): Evolution is too slow...we aren't evolving fast enough :)
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): + u cant own other people. Still a few mighty do exactly that with things like dictatorship and terror.
[13:33] herman Bergson: We think that a free market policy is a legal right ....
[13:33] Max Chatnoir: We need to suppress some of our primateness.
[13:33] herman Bergson: but when you look around...at this moment it is war all over the place...
[13:33] herman Bergson: economies are fighting each other
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm :(
[13:34] Max Chatnoir: How is it possible to fix it?
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thirst for power and control over the entire world and its population
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its insane
[13:34] herman Bergson: That goes very deep, Max
[13:35] herman Bergson: First of all we have to redefine the idea of private property
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:35] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i was born in 1956 and since then there has always been war somewhere.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Secondly we have to question the issue of how much an individual is allowed to possess, for money is power (e.g. look at US)
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:36] herman Bergson: Third we have to define human rights and a system to maintain them
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its even worse, your human value in US is more or less based on the size of your wallet
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least to many
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): just look how the healthcare system works
[13:38] herman Bergson: So, how do we fix injustice and this "legal injustice"?
[13:38] herman Bergson: If I only knew......
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): My biggest wish would be i could "debug" the word and fix at least lot of these issues. I get sad when i know I cant do anything about what i hear on the news all time
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): at least I want to but
[13:39] herman Bergson: There are voices talking about the ned of Western Dominance on this globe....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that I had that power
[13:40] herman Bergson: the end
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ned = need?
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a reverse dictator sort of making everyone happy and free
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: That's the trick. You think if I had the power, I could fix the world. But who was right. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
[13:40] Max Chatnoir: Who said that?
[13:41] herman Bergson: About the end? MAx?
[13:42] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): Does that end of Western dominance include the decline of democracy? If so, I think the human rights fight and the fight against injustice will go backwards.
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what's wrong with the West?
[13:42] Max Chatnoir: Lord Acton? (thank you, Google)
[13:42] herman Bergson: Well Sooki, THAT is the great fear indeed
[13:43] herman Bergson: Look at Europe...
[13:43] Max Chatnoir: Yes, democracy is at a tipping point, I fear.
[13:43] herman Bergson: A member of the EU Hungary has become a kind of dictatorship and sabotages the Eu.
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Orban yes (shudders).
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): another of Putins but lickers!
[13:44] Max Chatnoir: Well, I think it was a good idea and we have to get it back! The bigger your access to ideas, the better ideas you get.
[13:44] herman Bergson: Look at Greece...it sold its most important sea harbor to China....and now is no longer willing to accept EU rules that easily anymore....
[13:45] Max Chatnoir: When people get power, their buddies become afraid to contradict them, and so they do stupid things.
[13:45] herman Bergson: Look at the political rhetorics....I want to be a dictator (for one day)....someone said....In Europe, rightwing parties gain majorities in elections
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I dont think I could become like that even if i was a dictator. Im to nice of a person. I would do good with this power if I had any.
[13:47] herman Bergson: Our legacy will be at least that we recognize that animals have rights too :-)
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that is me
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): as said, i wish i could fix the world, end wars ect
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): make all people free and happy
[13:47] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): What is the saying? "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause that is how it should be now, as said its 2025
[13:48] bergfrau Apfelbaum: you can only get to power as an egoist! nice people can't do that
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we should not be as Q stared Savage beasts anymore
[13:48] herman Bergson: yes Sooki, power even seems to affect the human brain
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): stated
[13:48] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): True Bergfrau, so true
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: Well, I hope that you are correct about that, Bejiita, and I would like to believe it. The problem is that when you think you are right, you don't want to have to take the time to convince people who don't agree with you.
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: That is the problem.
[13:49] Max Chatnoir: Considering multiple solutions takes a LOT of time.
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes and a lot of people want solutions, not considering solutions for a while
[13:50] herman Bergson: Like T did by saying...I end that war with one phone call, etc.
[13:51] herman Bergson: I deport all illegals in one big action/....
[13:51] herman Bergson: That is what people love to hear
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he can't do that
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he's a lier
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed Beertje
[13:52] bergfrau Apfelbaum: that was just hot air from the "T" Idiot
[13:52] herman Bergson: no no...but that doesn't matter... like Mexico will pay for a wall....:-)
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Mexico isn't stupid...T is
[13:52] Max Chatnoir: And the Chinese will pay for the tariffs.
[13:52] herman Bergson: Here we have a politician who wants the Netherlands only for the real Dutch people
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: Whoever that is...
[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes, Max :-)))
[13:53] Max Chatnoir: Like America for the Americans. ???
[13:53] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:53] herman Bergson: Oh yes...all foreigners out...especiallly muslims
[13:54] Max Chatnoir: Yes, we can have a perfect country if we just get rid of everybody I don't like.
[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: 👍
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how he reasons indeed
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): guh!
[13:55] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): For injustice to end, for war to end, we would have to rid ourselves of the idea of "the other". I'm not sure we are capable as a species of doing that.
[13:55] Max Chatnoir: PURE CHIMP!!
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a selfish ego
[13:55] herman Bergson: As you see....justice , "legal justice", injustice....a subject to think about......
[13:55] Max Chatnoir: But we are capable, Hermann. If we can imagine it, we can do it.
[13:55] herman Bergson: Good point Sooki....
[13:56] herman Bergson: We still kling to our primitive binary thinking....white, black, Us - them, good- bad and so on
[13:56] herman Bergson: I think we can indeed Max....
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: But enough of us have to be willing to try.
[13:57] herman Bergson: We MADE some progress...a little...human rights, for instance...
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: Yes, we were moving along for a while.
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: Slowly, but moving.
[13:57] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:57] herman Bergson: no slavery anymore (at least in most places)
[13:57] Max Chatnoir: except for pigs. :-)
[13:58] herman Bergson: wider distribution of healthcare....and education....
[13:58] herman Bergson: well.....we already TALK about animal rights, Max....it is a start
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: Yes, it's a start.
[13:58] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:58] Max Chatnoir: How do we move it along?
[13:58] herman Bergson: You must keep one thing in mind......
[13:59] bergfrau Apfelbaum: I don't think so. Austria has already taken in many refugees. But this "other religion" just wants to impose its will here. Under no circumstances does it want to adapt....
[13:59] herman Bergson: We love to see a solution for all these problems during our lifetime....
[13:59] herman Bergson: but history shows us that it may take centuries to change mankind
[13:59] Max Chatnoir: But we can at least not go backward???
[14:00] herman Bergson: Actually no.....
[14:00] herman Bergson: for instance....
[14:00] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): feels like we do however at moment, more wars, more dictators and so
[14:00] Max Chatnoir: Yes, it does.
[14:00] herman Bergson: it is impossible to ignore all science, all current medicines, all modern engineering and so on
[14:00] bergfrau Apfelbaum: to my last message: and THAT is what I call robbery of another country
[14:01] Sookie Hart (sookicatalina): Gotta go....good discussion everybody.
[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: .. i am not so fast like you all
[14:01] Max Chatnoir: and if you kill off all the "little people" you are not going to like the results....
[14:01] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): bye Sokkie
[14:01] Max Chatnoir: Bye, Sookie.
[14:02] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye Sookie :-)
[14:02] herman Bergson: Well....maybe we should cool down too and follow Sooki :-))
[14:02] Max Chatnoir: My goodness, look at the time.
[14:02] herman Bergson: We won't solve all problems here :-)
[14:02] herman Bergson: YEs Max...:-))
[14:03] Max Chatnoir: No, but we can think together.
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's because it's so intresting Max
[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yes
[14:03] herman Bergson: Like many do and it works eventually....
[14:03] herman Bergson: So keep on thinking.....
[14:03] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[14:03] herman Bergson: Thank you all again......
[14:03] herman Bergson: Class dismissed,,,,
[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Thank you Herman
[14:04] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman, and the rest of you.
[14:04] Max Chatnoir: Thursday?
[14:04] herman Bergson: Sure
[14:04] Max Chatnoir: OK, see you then.
[14:04] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Max
[14:04] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman and class:-)
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