My newspaper presented me with an interesting article, which made me think of my personal philosophical stand and how I see myself today.
BEGIN QUOTE - For many, for millennia man has been the crown on creation.
Whether that creation was called the outcome of a blind genetic evolution process, or a creative design of an almighty maker,
or something in between, did not have a negative influence on the status of man.
But this once undisputed human privilege is increasingly being put into a new perspective.
Man is a being who distinguishes himself from other animals by .... yes, by what actually?
By language? Culture? Rationality or intelligence? Scientific research into language, culture, social and problem solving behavior
and the use of technology among animals increasingly indicates that the difference between human and non-human animals is rather gradual than fundamental.
And not only non-human animals gnaw at the chair legs of the human self- and worldview. It is at the same time overgrown with plant and artificial intelligence.
Intelligence is no longer reserved for man. Man, it seems, can no longer close his eyes for this insight.
But what does it mean? What we see is that we increasingly recognize a kind of inwardness among non-human beings.
The world around us also possesses capacity to act and forms of reflection and intelligence.
That is a farewell to the idea that only man is an animated being, which was valid for centuries in our Greek-European culture.
We were very attached to the image of the animal as a machine, a legacy of Descartes.
In biology, animal behavior must always have a function, and within behaviorism it is not even more than a matter of stimulus and response.
At the same time, it is precisely those things which are definitely machines, like computers and robots,
which by machine learning appear to become independent and eventually perhaps even self-aware. The dream or nightmare of many. -END QUOTE
It is interesting to notice, how this text relates to all those themes we have discussed here. It is in my newspaper today!
We become more and more aware of the fact, that having a self or self-awareness can no longer be regarded as a unique feature of homo sapiens.
Maybe defining our Self based on introspection, first-person-authority or interpretation or self-regulation is too narrow.
Suppose we accept the thought, that everything has an absolute drive to persist. In that way also plants and animals have a kind of inwardness.
This is only a few steps away from the philosophical ideas of Spinoza (1632 - 1677) we discussed in a previous project.
Thank you for your attention again….^_^
The Discussion
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): which newspaper?
[13:28] herman Bergson: Trouw
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok, thank you
[13:28] herman Bergson: National newspaper
[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)
[13:29] herman Bergson: hmmm..no thanksgiving here....:-)
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well we will see where we go from this idea then
[13:29] herman Bergson: pitty :-)
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:29] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:29] herman Bergson grins
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:30] herman Bergson: Well what IS interesting is that people begin to realize what eco systems are....
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh
[13:30] herman Bergson: Plants are way smarter than we think for instance
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): correct
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes they warn eachother
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): even atoms
[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Beertje...things like that....
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:31] Peli (peli.dieterle) is online.
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ( do NOT grow in Beertje's garden )
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha
[13:31] CB Axel: I have a picture I like showing ego vs eco. °͜°
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cause she is watering with chlorine or what?
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bad soil:(
[13:32] herman Bergson: Soemone said....if you define wisdome as the insight to control your situation, to adapt so that you can preserve your kind, plants are wiser than man
[13:32] herman Bergson: animals too
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dissolve some ammonia in water, that gives some nitrogen adittion, however i think olants need other nutrients as well
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but nitro is important
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha cb
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very true
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: end of hierarchy?
[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i guess so
[13:33] CB Axel: Yes, Herman, but I can outrun the plants. °͜°
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): can you outrun a triffid? if you know what that is
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): however triffids are not real
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): basically walking carnivorous angle trumpets or orcidea
[13:34] CB Axel: When I come across a triffid, we'll find out. LOL
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): looks nice outside
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (in science fiction) one of a race of predatory plants that are capable of growing to a gigantic size and are possessed of locomotor ability and a poisonous sting.
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes
[13:35] herman Bergson whispers: sorry CB cant use it because it is NO COPY/NO MOD
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we all got ione
[13:36] CB Axel: I'll send you a copy one. I did send it to everyone here
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): herman
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:36] herman Bergson: I see :-)
[13:36] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have one already Herman
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i saw the movie day of the triffids recently
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): one of the comments i read was " you know you have messed enough with nature when you are being chased by shrubbery"
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ha
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well animals chase us now
[13:37] CB Axel: LOL, Bejiita.
[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): mosquitoes do
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes they chase me always when i try play golf and disturb be
[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will be interesting to see how the whole thing progresses
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): itching like hell
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): true
[13:38] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Gemma Cleanslate donated L$50. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
[13:39] herman Bergson: I am sorry....got some lag...
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do animals have a self as well?
[13:39] herman Bergson: maybe caused by my snow outside ^_^
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i think they do but dont know it
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we know it
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): self aware they certainley are in some way
[13:39] herman Bergson: Some animals definitely have self awareness Beertje
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cats and dogs definitley are
[13:40] herman Bergson: But in our cause we add TIME to our Self....
[13:40] herman Bergson: animals have memories, but I wonder if they have them in an historical perspective...
[13:40] CB Axel: I'm not sure about cats. They sure get confused by mirrors. °͜°
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and lasers
[13:40] herman Bergson: like we see our Self in relation to time
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and tv
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but my cat would watch other animals on tv
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but dogs like lasers as well, at least many i have met love chasing a laser spot around
[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): my parrot remembers the faces and voices from people who had them before I had him
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): what is called the workout the anomals from the couch method
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): animals
[13:42] herman Bergson: yes..but I guess the parrot does not know how long ago it was that it saw that face or person
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): did everyone get to read the atlantic article on second life?
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no I guess not, but he remembers things from 25 years ago
[13:42] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is offline.
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): laser in one hand, beer in the other and the dog and cat chasing sound like crazy while you relax
[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): around
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hahaha Bejiita
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: the parrot may not - the elephant does
[13:43] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is online.
[13:43] CB Axel: Sounds like a great workout to me, Bejiita. LOL
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): specialy for you Bejiita
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they get slim, and you get chubby
[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hihi did you see the Atlantic article??
[13:43] herman Bergson: the elephant has a certain level of self awareness too Ciska
[13:43] CB Axel: But do elephants know how long it has been since they saw someone?
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): memory like an elephant is a term, if that is true or a myth i dont know
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah cb that i dont know
[13:44] herman Bergson: They don’t have wristwatches that large CB
[13:44] CB Axel: Or do they just know they remember that they remember?
[13:44] CB Axel: LOL, Herman.
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): THAT wristwatsh id like to see
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): !
[13:44] CB Axel: Don't be silly. Elephants just look at their phones.
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): (imagines pokemon hunting elephant)
[13:45] herman Bergson: Interesting issue....awareness of time in a chronological sense.....
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxX3E5asZA4 )
[13:45] herman Bergson: maybe that is what makes us different from other animals :-)
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): on the list anyway
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): time is an invent of human
[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....we make history.....
[13:46] herman Bergson: we record our past too
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: well this will be interessting for following generations
[13:47] herman Bergson: maybe an interesting subject......the philosophy of Time :-))
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aaa yes
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :)
[13:47] Ciska Riverstone: I guess there will be a different view of history now... that we have history in form of blogs and data
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a difficult one :)
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: of so many people
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: history will not be written of only winners any longer
[13:48] herman Bergson: yes indeed Ciska....
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: the losers will write it too
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: ;)
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): keeping it will be easy tho with computer and cloud
[13:48] CB Axel: That will be nice, Ciska.
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): sorting that is the issue
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes - more wholesome
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: yes gemma
[13:48] Ciska Riverstone: and all this amount of data....
[13:49] Ciska Riverstone: incredible
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed
[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes....what that will bring us....?
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): when my database server is programmed and ready well maybe can keep it there
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i think it a bit too small for that though
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): data base servers will be out of date by that time
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh oh
[13:50] CB Axel: Maybe in the future, with very powerful computers, someone will be able to sort through all the data and make sense of our current society.
[13:50] CB Axel: I sure can't make sense of it now.
[13:50] herman Bergson: what will be next Beertje?
[13:50] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh no
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i don't know, I can't see the future
[13:50] CB Axel: It'll take quantum computers.
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): woke to a discussion on BBC about ayn rand having us live her philosophy in uSA at this time
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): terrible alarm clock
[13:51] herman Bergson: oh dear....so true
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well trump is basically partially that already
[13:52] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and perhaps elsewhere too as we go along
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ayn rand would be really bad though, a land of greed
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): destroying our planet
[13:53] herman Bergson: The rich elite controls the US now and has made it vansish from the international political stage
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so many look at their selves as products of rand
[13:53] Second Life: нαяℓєу qυιии (FannyZeta) is now known as Oɴᴏʀɪɴᴀ.
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): followers
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:53] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but look at Germany and the problems merkel is having right now with the same people
[13:54] herman Bergson: Europe talks with China now....
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): all scary
[13:54] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): china is rising
[13:55] herman Bergson: We're a bit off topic now....:-)
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): you all for the nice party!!!! was really good .. i almost missed my rezz day totally
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how it should be
[13:55] herman Bergson: So maybe good to end our discussion here :-)
[13:55] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:55] CB Axel: Us? Off topic? Never! LOL
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): next Tuesday then
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting as always
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation...
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah cb but he does not type in caps as he used to in the old days
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed......^_^
[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): off topic WAS TERRIBLE
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu thursday then
[13:56] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): NO THURSDAY
[13:56] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Gemma
[13:56] CB Axel: See you all next week.
[13:56] herman Bergson: NO THURSDAY!
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty Herman & Class:-) and cheers! gemma
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: take care everyone
[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
