407: The Utopia of the Free Market - Jeremy Bentham

Economics as an academic discipline, or even as a concept, was not possible in traditional societies, based as they were on either tradition or authoritarian rule.  

Not until the market system came into existence did “economics” make any sense, since until that time land, labor, and capital had no modern meanings. 

With Adam Smith we got a theoretical basis: Society is a group of people, where everybody is born with his or her own set of skills and acts based on self-interest. 

These skills are used to gain an income. The more skillful you are the higher your income can become.

Everybody is absolutely free to do with his income as he pleases. Any attempt to order the individual to spend his money on well defined targets is an infringement on personal freedom.

This means that every institution in society should be contract based. Those who pay for it, will benefit from it. 

Nobody is obliged to pay. Such an obligation is regarded as TAKING money from a free person and spending it against his will on issues he doesn't agree to.

A free market helps to select those who are good at different enterprises and those who are not. Any attempt to interfere with this process will disrupt the market.

Or… summarized…Amen  to liberalism ^_^ 

Adam Smith (1723 - 1790) believed in a virtuous self-interest which results in invisible cooperation. The whole system is based on a specific belief in the nature of man. What drives a man: self-interest and in the negative sense, the vice of greed.

This self-interest will automatically contribute to the public benefit, if you let it have its way in the free market. And here we run into the paradox of the free market.

For what we call the free market is nowadays controlled by tons of regulations. For example, in Europe we have this famous "Brussels speaks".

 Just think of the enormous agricultural subsidies, which prevents developing countries to compete in our market.  Free market… ???

The paradox is that there has emerged a whole "monitoring industry". Only in the Netherlands there is paid more than 800 million Euro a year on monitoring, inspection and enforcement.

The philosophy of Jeremy Bentham (1748 - 1832) and his ethics of utilitarianism fits perfectly with the economic approach of neoliberalism. 

The homo economics with his rational choice mode was already a basic part of his philosophy. The same model as you find in the works of Ayn Rand.

"Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do. 

On the one hand the standard of right and wrong, on the other the chain of causes and effects, are fastened to their throne. 

They govern us in all we do, in all we say, in all we think…"

— Jeremy Bentham , The Principles of Morals and Legislation (1789) Ch I, p 1"

Initially Bentham invented even a special pain/pleasure calculus, so that it was possible to evaluate the amount of pleasure and pain. 

Later he replaced the calculus  by money as criterium. But this method could only be used by fully rational persons.

Here we encounter the black side of almost every ideology. The Utopia of the Free Market is based on the assumption that our self-interest eventually will work for the public welfare, because our rational dealing with demand and supply.

But we are not just that perfect rationally acting being. We are not just that homo economics and Bentham had his own ideas about that observation. In 1791 he published a small booklet "The Panopticum" 

The Panopticon is a type of institutional building designed by Bentham. The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe (-opticon) all (pan-) inmates of an institution without them being able to tell whether or not they are being watched.

Bentham conceived the basic plan as being equally applicable to hospitals, schools, poorhouses, daycares, and madhouses, but he devoted most of his efforts to developing a design for a Panopticon prison, and it is his prison which is most widely understood by the term.

It was invoked by Michel Foucault  in "Surveiller et Punir (Discipline and Punish)" (1975)) as metaphor for modern "disciplinary" societies and their pervasive inclination to observe and normalise.

Just look around you, just as Bentham assumed, day after day we have to be disciplined to be(come) true believers in the free market and the invisible hand that guides us all.

That such a campaign was needed and apparently now still remains necessary, lets see clearly that man is more, was more, and wants to be more than a  rational homo economicus.

The Discussion

[13:28] herman Bergson: Thank you.....

[13:28] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:28] herman Bergson: The floor is yours..^_^

[13:28] Clerisse Beeswing: strange

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I didn't know that stuff about Bentham....

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): Very interesting - thanks prof.

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): this looks like Big brother is watching you...

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But utilitarianism seems a good thing to me

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes merlin it was till 1975 and foucault's publication...

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): I would like to read more on Benthams calculus

[13:29] Clerisse Beeswing: sound like that movie with jim curry

[13:30] herman Bergson: That is only fun Debbie....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: interesting thing for sure

[13:30] herman Bergson: the formula was...

[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): A calculus of pleasure and pain ?

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I doubt if its maths

[13:31] herman Bergson: Intensity X Duration X %Closeness X%Certainty

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): oh .. .sort-of maths then :P

[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): Probably some math...

[13:31] herman Bergson: complete nonsense

[13:31] Clerisse Beeswing: sounds like it

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Still not calculus as I know it

[13:32] herman Bergson: later he changed it into money...

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: x = times?

[13:32] Mick Nerido: we all tend to do what will give us pleasure and avoid pain...

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol - not calculus at all.

[13:32] herman Bergson: You mean propositional calculus??

[13:32] herman Bergson: first order logic?

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Differential and Integral.. as in Newton

[13:33] herman Bergson: no no...it was calculating a value...

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): No. I was referring to your lecture.

[13:33] Qwark Allen: omg

[13:33] herman Bergson: way over my head Merlin ^_^

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ok :)

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: saved the formula will try to make one in visual c++

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: hehë

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: asa fun thing

[13:33] Qwark Allen: nice bej

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): wtg bej lol

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): we're going off-topic again

[13:34] Clerisse Beeswing: lost me at calculus

[13:34] herman Bergson: Bentham ended up with saying that if that pleasure is worth 5 pounds and that pleasure is worth 5 pound then they are equal pleasures

[13:34] Femtasia Rexen: haha

[13:34] herman Bergson: Ye Merlin...

[13:34] herman Bergson: for the most important topic today is...

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well the health service do calculations like that now

[13:34] Qwark Allen: ehhehehe

[13:35] Qwark Allen: ehehhe

[13:35] Qwark Allen: to much

[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: I believe that too

[13:35] herman Bergson: that every ideology seems to need some (re)education program for the population...

[13:35] herman Bergson: and Betham was close to that idea...

[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: if this many people had this many disease will leave this many people

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh yes Herman.. .We are ALWAYS learning... (not) :P

[13:35] herman Bergson: we ahve te be educated to be rational self-intersted human beings...

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): It is almost like someone picks a policy, and makes people follow it. How is this "free"?

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: in a way

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie....

[13:36] Clerisse Beeswing: in a way indeed. someone do turn polices around

[13:36] herman Bergson: at the roots of that policy is a view of man....

[13:36] Qwark Allen: somehow that his ideas doesn't seem from a free mind / market point of view

[13:37] Qwark Allen: everything was kind of controlled to what he believe should be the way

[13:37] herman Bergson: and liberalism and neoliberalism and Objectivism have such a view...

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: but from his own views and interests

[13:37] herman Bergson: Well Qwark...

[13:37] herman Bergson: the point is...

[13:37] herman Bergson: where DO our ideas about society come from???

[13:38] Clerisse Beeswing: people higher up then me

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): from leaders who distill them from the zeitgeist,

[13:38] herman Bergson: What we know is the relation between Money and power...

[13:38] herman Bergson: No Debbie I don't believe that...

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): ok

[13:38] herman Bergson: I still believe in the greedy individual...

[13:38] herman Bergson: greed of money and greed of power

[13:39] Femtasia Rexen nods

[13:39] Clerisse Beeswing: true

[13:39] herman Bergson: but the real question is....

[13:39] herman Bergson: Why are we greedy (by nature) and can't we share equally???

[13:39] Femtasia Rexen: we are all afraid

[13:39] Femtasia Rexen: haha

[13:39] Clerisse Beeswing: true fem

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well there is Death to consider

[13:40] herman Bergson: Yes....terror is a good weapon of the greedy...

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): Good question. maybe because we are stuck in a body isolated from others, and feel our own fear and pain so vividly

[13:40] Qwark Allen: i understand his point of view, but i see a future society based on those ideas, with people dressing light blue clothing, and other dark blue

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hmm interesting question herman indeed

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Building riches against poverty in old age etc

[13:40] Femtasia Rexen: and dying before we get there

[13:40] Femtasia Rexen: so someone else gets the money

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sometimes yes Fem

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: even though people have they still want more and more and more for themselves at the cost of others

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Qwark..I know what you are point ing at...

[13:41] herman Bergson: but communism isn't a solution at al...

[13:41] Clerisse Beeswing: has we grow so does our mind and want

[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh Clerisse?

[13:41] herman Bergson: there you too see a system of first (re)education the population...

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Clerisse we have to grow wiser...

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): The destruction of the commons caused by greed should make us want to be more fair.

[13:42] Clerisse Beeswing: yes I guess the more we learn we will see good to bad and learn

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie.....

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's still the survival of the fittest

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): I guess we are a lot less intelligent than we think ;)

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oh yes Debbie..so true

[13:43] herman Bergson: I have thought about that myself Debbie :-)

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:43] herman Bergson: Quite an intelligent remark ^_*

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): he he

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: the prob is the greedy ones don't care at all about the others just for themselves

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: even if all people around suffered they wouldn't care

[13:44] Clerisse Beeswing: true

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: thats why it looks like this in the world

[13:44] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....that is the sick observation indeed

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: yes :(

[13:45] Clerisse Beeswing: but that is why there is people who think on their own who can help the greedy understand

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Why are we speaking about them? we all participate willingly.

[13:45] herman Bergson: No Debbie....the situation is so complex....

[13:46] herman Bergson: What understanding do we have of the operations of the financial markets?

[13:46] Clerisse Beeswing: any talk about money brings out the best and worst in some

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yet they manipulate our governments, banks etc

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): None, but we can see destruction of the commons clearly.

[13:46] herman Bergson: yes we can indeed Debbie...

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Can you clarify Commons Debbie?

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Common land etc?

[13:47] herman Bergson: Let me try first Merlin...

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): Commons was well covered by herman earlier.

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ok

[13:47] Qwark Allen: the name should be changed from free market, to manipulated market by the greedy

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:47] herman Bergson: The basic idea of commons is in my opinion 'solidarity' and 'sharing' the resources of this planet

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: thats the true name for it for sure

[13:48] herman Bergson: correct me if I am wrong Debbie

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: all speeding in the wrong direction

[13:48] Qwark Allen: yes :-)

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): Good explanation herman.

[13:48] herman Bergson: thank you Debbie...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:48] herman Bergson: From there we can go on then...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: thats how i define commons too as "the commin stuff "

[13:49] herman Bergson: What Debbie means by commons , means, that we are loosing that

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: that now the greedy ones want for themselves without sharing

[13:49] herman Bergson: all is part of the greed of individuals...

[13:49] herman Bergson: oh...to give you an example....

[13:49] herman Bergson: in the newpaper of today....

[13:49] herman Bergson: WHO OWNS THE SEA????

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol - good question - we do.

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: eeeh Own the sea? thats insane

[13:50] Qwark Allen: the fishies?

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: well some people try to own the moon now

[13:50] herman Bergson: Well..Chine , Japan and the Phillipines are fighting over enormous areas of sea...

[13:50] Qwark Allen: yes, cause of natural resources there

[13:50] Clerisse Beeswing: europe too

[13:51] herman Bergson: they draw their borders ..well...with a ruler I guess on the map and say...this is mine...

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): But the sea is earth, and we all live here - it is OUR COMMON sea

[13:51] herman Bergson: reason....there is oil there

[13:51] herman Bergson: but WHO OWNS THIS EARTH....???

[13:51] herman Bergson: not us...

[13:51] herman Bergson: but look what they are doing...

[13:51] herman Bergson: reason...

[13:51] Qwark Allen: for me, the same ones that rule the markets

[13:51] herman Bergson: profit..

[13:51] herman Bergson: greed

[13:51] herman Bergson: self enrichment...

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): we all do, even the poor. or no - one.

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: some think they can own the universe i think

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:52] Qwark Allen: how many of you don`t have a TV home?

[13:52] Qwark Allen: seems i`m the only one then

[13:52] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:52] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:52] Femtasia Rexen: me too

[13:52] herman Bergson: I wished everyone on this earth had one at his home Qwark..

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Me... sort-of

[13:52] herman Bergson: and internet

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol qwark

[13:52] Clerisse Beeswing: me too everyone should have one

[13:53] Qwark Allen: internet is a gd thing, TV not so sure

[13:53] Clerisse Beeswing: internet and tv are almost the same qwark

[13:53] herman Bergson: Those are the new channels to democracy on a globalscale

[13:53] Qwark Allen: look at those countries, where there is no free will or choice

[13:53] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): no no Clerisse

[13:53] herman Bergson: like Adam Smith already said...

[13:53] Qwark Allen: only government propaganda

[13:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): I would choose the internet over tv. better choice of programs ;)

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: i have computer connected to home theatre system really smooth but a bit clicking back and forth now

[13:53] herman Bergson: quitessentail is EDUCATION

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: watching eurovision semi at same time

[13:54] Clerisse Beeswing: hmm okay gotta think about it

[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

[13:54] herman Bergson: Ok..I think you are educated enough for today...

[13:54] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:54] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**   **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**   **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:54] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum: very interesting!! herman & class

[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....

[13:54] Clerisse Beeswing: thank you professor

[13:54] bergfrau Apfelbaum:I possess only ONE mountain :-) --> in SL

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: awesome and interesting

[13:55] Femtasia Rexen: very interesting, thank you

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: smile

[13:55] herman Bergson: class dismissed...^_^

[13:55] Qwark Allen: as usual herman

[13:55] Qwark Allen: :-)))

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman:)

[13:55] Mick Nerido: thanks herman, sorry i fell asleep...

[13:55] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:55] Fred123 Aiten: many thanks herman

[13:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): awesome thanks Prof Herman ;)

406: The Utopia of the Free Market - unveiled

-quote

"...every individual necessarily labours to render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. 

By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, 

and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by AN INVISIBLE HAND [caps by h B] to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for the society that it was no part of it.

 By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good." -end quote

In this passage from Book IV, Chapter 2, Adam Smith, explains one of the central mechanisms how a market society works. Every individual works for an income to buy products, keeping his own safety and benefit in mind. 

This is not bad nor wrong because thus he   - tho it is not his intention - often serves the public interest. 

Adam Smith was a deeply religious man, he saw the "invisible hand" as the mechanism by which a beneficent God controls a universe in which human happiness is maximized. 

Here you are confronted with the deepest roots of the Utopia of the Free Market: the belief that what happens in the market is regulated by some kind of "natural" conditions or laws (God?): the basic beliefs of liberalism.

Chapter 7 of Book I is fascinating reading. Just its title to begin with: "Of the Natural and Market Prize of Commodities". You see?! There exists a natural prize of products.

-quote

"When the price of any commodity is neither more nor less than what is sufficient to pay the rent of the land, the wages of the labour, 

and the profits of the stock employed in raising, preparing, and bringing it to market, according to their natural rates, the commodity is then sold for what may be called its natural price."

-end quote

In that chapter he describes the causes of fluctuations in prizes. For instance,

the increased competition among manufacturers and increased supply would reduce the price of a product to its production costs plus a small margin, the "natural price".

Smith was convinced that, although people often were driven by selfishness and greed, competition in the free market  will benefit the community as a whole.

Contrary to how Rand, Greenspan and Friedman  interpret Adam Smith, 

he did not propagate a social system in which citizens act selfish, he just described the reality: people act in self-interest. 

And second, Smith did not claimed that any form of self-interest contributed to the public interest. In his opinion self-interest is not always good but he did not think it was necessarily bad. 

Adam Smith criticized those who act solely out of greed and warned that "All for ourselves and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind." (Book III, Chap. 4)

Smith was by no means an advocate of laissez faire, he does not claim that the free market can solve all economic problems. For example, with respect to regulation, he says:

"Whenever the legislature attempts to regulate the differences between masters and their workmen, its counsellors are always the masters. 

When the regulation, therefore, is in favour of the workmen, it is always just and equitable; but it is sometimes otherwise when in favour of the masters. (Book 1, Chap. 10).

Nowhere in "The Wealth of Nations" you can catch Adam Smith on an absolute belief in the Free Market, like you find with Rand, Greenspan and neo-liberals.

They just inflated some aspects of his economic theory and abused these for their Utopia, sometimes also called "The American Dream".

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you.. ㋡

[13:23] herman Bergson: listens to the silence...

[13:23] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): wow... really a lot to think about

[13:23] Kime Babenco: ;-)

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): at least he is more balanced

[13:24] herman Bergson: I hear you think indeed....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:24] Ampfan Walkenberg: very interesting

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not completely clear on his view of the worker s and the masters

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Ok, the cost model in the natural prize neglects the true cost of energy and materials

[13:24] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): i think he really is right about the workers and the masters.. hasn't much changed since

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): what counsellors

[13:24] herman Bergson: The basic idea is that Smith is the first one who describes the working of the market based on supply and demand

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes seems so

[13:25] herman Bergson: Indeed Alarice!

[13:25] Kime Babenco: I guess Adam Smith's thinking about a god who wnated maximum human happiness… that one really failed

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: the natural prize id say is created by this

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: supply and demand

[13:25] Debbie Dee (framdor): In a free market system, the result is pillaging of the commons for free.

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is good supply and demand

[13:25] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): yes... but one doesn't really find this

[13:25] herman Bergson: Noo Bejiita...and yes Kime I guess you are right

[13:25] Kime Babenco: Market price...

[13:25] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): too many other factors come with it

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: however many companies seems also to compete each other out of buisness ex many retail stores here for electronics

[13:26] herman Bergson: Wait....

[13:26] herman Bergson: Here is the catch.....

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): The problem is that the cost model is still wrong - who pays for fukushima?

[13:26] Kime Babenco: What about fixed prices... For example.. if you like to take a plane or bus or train... Fixed price ... Full is full

[13:26] herman Bergson: The neo-liberals refer to Smith's his economic theory....

[13:27] herman Bergson: But what they overlook is that Smith was an observer.....of HIS time....

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): and who pays to clean up the open cast coal mines

[13:27] herman Bergson: real markets...small factories and workshops etc…

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yeah ..just like Jesus was talking about his time too

[13:28] herman Bergson: Just imagine what Adam Smith would think of our world...where markets are manipulated by commercials and advertisements…

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hah

[13:28] Kime Babenco: of course

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very different

[13:28] herman Bergson: where banks are not boring banks but playing russian roulette with our savings

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: indeed thats not a good thing

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): and the prize is always too low - no costs relating to environment or depletion

[13:29] herman Bergson: But the Objectivists...the Greenspans and Friedmans and Hayeks adore the free market reffering to Smith...

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): And constant pressure to consume more cheap junk

[13:29] herman Bergson: Believing in that INVISIBLE HAND themselves

[13:30] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): but Smith probably saw it differently.... he wouldn't agree to it now I suppose...

[13:30] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): ?!

[13:30] herman Bergson: Keep in mind our theme....the UTOPIA of the free market

[13:30] Kime Babenco: It was as well mentioned there became larger companies in stead of smaller... So was said lower prices... which is not at all correct ! Maybe a higher salary for the CEO

[13:30] herman Bergson: I think Smith would go crazy now, Alarice....

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): well, the utopia is a nightmare.

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): me too

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but some refer to him often as a basis for their business decisions

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes...it is a nightmare....

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:31] herman Bergson: They talk about billions today....

[13:31] herman Bergson: anything goes...

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: dreaming of the impossible trying to realize it in practize and it ends in disaster

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: cause it doesnt work for real

[13:32] herman Bergson: loosing billions..what is the problem....and so on

[13:32] Mick Nerido: where will it end?

[13:32] herman Bergson: Well Mick...I asked that myself....

[13:32] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): yes... it would probably stress him to see how what he described developed over the time!

[13:32] Kime Babenco: Why do prices always rice ? They say a shortage for a while..., but when that is over, the prices don't fall again...

[13:32] herman Bergson: But that isn't in fact such a big question at all....

[13:32] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): and I don't think anyone knows the solution at all

[13:33] herman Bergson: It is pretty common practice that a country goes bankrupt....

[13:33] herman Bergson: First one was Spain in 1557

[13:33] herman Bergson: and Spain is still there ^_^

[13:33] herman Bergson: Argentina...six times...

[13:33] herman Bergson: France too

[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): Greece is having a hard time now

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: six times?

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: but looking good at all for greece

[13:34] herman Bergson: Germany two times...1923 and 1945....now the richest economy in europe

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: not

[13:34] Mick Nerido: It's like a RL monopoly game...

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Mick….

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: sort of indeed

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): but in RL when you default on a loan, your property is repossessed

[13:34] Fred123 Aiten: why are we worried about Greece then?

[13:34] herman Bergson: Go straight to the jail.....

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): you can't really do that with a country

[13:34] Kime Babenco: Countries and companies can go bankrupt, and start again... Try as a person ! They will find you...

13:34] herman Bergson: I am not....:-)

[13:35] herman Bergson: I htink they are best of leaving the euro-zone...

[13:35] herman Bergson: go bankruopt...

[13:35] herman Bergson: devaluation of 50 to 70% percent so the best export country in Europe

[13:35] Fred123 Aiten: Then we will never get back the money we have lent them

[13:35] herman Bergson: They'll get rich

[13:36] Kime Babenco: What countries did you had in mind ?

[13:36] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): better then giving them more and more ....

[13:36] herman Bergson: Don't know about that Fred..but do you really miss it? :-))

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: why Greece have a such hard time is also cause they haven't any industry only whine and cheese and such no real production

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: no car industry ect

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: that can make the economy spin

[13:37] herman Bergson: and because the country is corrupt in many layers

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): what will it really do to all other economies if they do that herman

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i hear it will be chaos

[13:37] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): oh...that is right.. but the problem is their attitude... and that needs. a looonnngg time to get changed

[13:37] herman Bergson: I think..not much Gemma....

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope not

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not so sure

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: greek food os great but you cant power a countrys economy with that you need a real industry and they dont have that at all

[13:38] Kime Babenco: There you say... corruption is not very attractive to companies to settle down there... So what will they export (even at low price) ? Retsina and olives ?

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: never seen "made in greece" in a product

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh i have

[13:38] Mick Nerido: the country is the same after bankrupt, just the money is worth less

[13:38] Kime Babenco: Neither me

[13:38] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): oh there are Bejiita

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Kime ㋡

[13:38] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): olive oil, olives :-)

[13:38] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): not really much tho

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: beside feta cheese and olives, no cars or such products

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): pottery

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): the problem with Greece is that they lied about their stats when entering the Eurozone

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: or machinery

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): laces

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: in general

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well..let's return to the main subject....

[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): it devalues everyone

[13:39] herman Bergson: The idea of the Free Market...

[13:39] Kime Babenco: Because all demonstrations and strikes they are keeping the tourists away as well

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: that too the tourist industry seem their biggest income

[13:39] herman Bergson: For Adam Smith the idea was based on a deep belief in God and his invisible hand...

[13:40] Kime Babenco: I am not sure biggest , but certainly important... You know China already bought a lot there ?

[13:40] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): well.. he didn't count in the human greed

[13:40] herman Bergson: Rand and Greenspan generalized his ideas out of context and made self-interest a virtue....

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): stil doing that

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): along with many economists here

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): agreed.

[13:41] herman Bergson: Smith observed that man acts on self-interest.....and he believed that at the end all would turn out well because of that invisible hand in the market

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): I suppose that the counter-argument is that self interest is also in the best interest of the economy

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Velvet...

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): but it is not since self interest is greed these days.

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): So if I want to work hard and do well, that also benefits the economy

[13:41] Kime Babenco: Maybe they should bring the ex leaders of such countries like Greece, bring to justice in The Hague

[13:42] Kime Babenco: THough it will not solve a lot

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): along with george bush

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): I can't argue with that. The more money I make, the more I spend.

[13:42] herman Bergson: but the hot issue is....how much government regulation should there be to channel this drive of self-interest...

[13:42] Fred123 Aiten: only providing you spend your money Kime

[13:42] herman Bergson: That is the debate of today...

[13:42] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: very interesting

[13:43] Mick Nerido: Economic models work for a time and then fail as things change

[13:43] herman Bergson: the most extreme form of control we have seen in communism…..conclusion..doesn't work...

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): Since there is no invisible hand, we need some new leaders with altruistic objectives

[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): So, the "invisible hand" works as long as the majority of people have a good work ethic.

[13:43] herman Bergson: at th eother and the Tea party ideas.....

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we saw an example of non regulations this week with jp morgan bank loosing 2,000,000,000 of their money

[13:43] Kime Babenco: Therefore those are not models, just fashion apearances

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): maybe more

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma.....

[13:43] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): yeah.. incredible again

[13:44] Qwark Allen: omg´

[13:44] herman Bergson: Whose money Gemma?????

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): mine. I have money in that bank.

[13:44] herman Bergson: That is the scary question

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aaw thats no good

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they keep saying it was "their money " not depositers

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): however

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they wer in the bail out a ffew years back

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): money is created from debt.

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): byte the government!!!!

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): but my money is protected, unless too many people withdraw at once

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): OUR money

[13:45] Fred123 Aiten: if they lost 2 billion who gained it?

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bad trades

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): they made poor investments

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol. it is only printed....

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:45] Kime Babenco: By printing or pressing from machines

[13:45] herman Bergson: yes Fred...the other side of the medal :-)

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): Debbie, not even printed!

[13:45] Qwark Allen: withdraw money is what greeks are doing now

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: yes its we that provide the bank with money so their loosing our money then not theirs

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): money exists only as numbers in the computers of the federal reserve

[13:45] Qwark Allen: 894 mills in o ne day, 2 days ago

[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): At least here in the US

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): So where does 2.4 trillion dollars of quantitative easing come in ?

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is moves like this that banks sshould nto be able to do

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well.....enough to think about for the weekend...and check your bank accounts ㋡

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lol

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): they are shuffling game pieces around a board

[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol thanks for the tip herman

[13:46] Kime Babenco: If you liive for hundred years, that's 3,333 billion seconds

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): 80-89-s party today

[13:47] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you everyone!

[13:47] Fred123 Aiten: Thank you herman

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Herman - excellent topic.

[13:47] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman!

[13:47] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:47] Qwark Allen: TY

[13:47] herman Bergson: My pleasure ^_^

405: The Utopia of the Free Market - Adam Smith

The ideas of Ayn Rand in her utopia "Atlas Shrugged" (1957) can hardly be called original. Like she borrowed almost literally the ideas on property from John Locke (1632 - 1704), thus she took the ideas of Adam Smith (1723 - 1790) on self-interest too.

Adam Smith, a philosopher of the Scottish Enlightenment like his contemporary David Hume (1711 - 1776), was a brilliant observer.

In 1759 he published his "Theory of the Moral Sentiments". Not some metaphysical treatise on ethics, but an attempt to deduce from observation general moral principles.

The same approach we find in his famous "An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" from 1776.

You really should read it, or at least a few chapters.

You will be amazed and become a witness of the first steps into a market society, the first attempts of mass production, the division of labor,

and the immense important discovery by Adam Smith, that the value of products depends on  the labor that is put in. Thus, the real commodity of value in an economy is labor.

It is really exciting to read his observations and interpretations. His style is clear and very readable. At the end of the lecture I'll give you information where to find "The Wealth of Nations" as it is usually called.

An example: -quote

In almost every other race of animals each individual, when it is grown up to maturity, is entirely independent, and in its natural state has occasion for the assistance of no other living creature. 

But man has almost constant occasion for the help of his brethren, and it is in vain for him to expect it from their benevolence only.

He will be more likely to prevail if he can interest their self-love in his favour, and show them that it is for their own advantage to do for him what he requires of them. (p.16, An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations,1776,  Adelaide edition 2008)

- end quote

By the way, did you notice the expression "every other race of animals"?  We have to wait for Darwin at least another 100 years. Did Smith see th human being already as an animal among animals, only a more special animal?

And then on the next page probably the most often quoted passage: - quote

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. 

We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages. Nobody but a beggar chooses to depend chiefly upon the benevolence of his fellow-citizens.

- end quote

Ayn Rand couldn't get it better. A clear statement that the basic drive of the human being is self-love, or, as she preferred to call it: self-interest.

Just listen to this: - quote

I find it remarkable that our ideas about the beneficence of competition have remained essentially unchanged since the time of the Enlightenment, when they were first formulated. 

This was mainly due to one man: Adam Smith. In a sense, the history of capitalism and the competitive market is still the story of the ups and downs of the ideas of Adam Smith.

- end quote

From the biography of Allen Greenspan (2007). He may be right within the context of the primitive economy of the utopian Atlantis in "Atlas Shrugged", but for the rest he looks at Adam Smith too much with his Randian Objectivist glasses.

As I said in the beginning, Adam Smith writes as a brilliant observer, but an observer of HIS time. He generalizes, what he observes in the period of 1768 to 1778, the time he worked on "The Wealth of the Nations". But to make it into general economic laws, like Greenspan suggested, is one a step too far.

As I promised you, I'll tell you where to find this book for free. There are two great places of free ebooks of world literature in many fiefs: Gutenberg.org and the University of Adelaide, Australia.

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/smith/adam/s64w/complete.html#chapter4

If your print routine has that option, you can print the book to .PDF format.

If you have the opportunity you definitely should at least page through Book One of "The wealth of Nations". You will be amazed and impressed.

To be continued…

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you ㋡

[13:23] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman

[13:23] herman Bergson: Got a URL of the Archive you mentioned Penelope?

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks herman

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Its good for us when things are out of copyright

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Professor

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes - like open knowledge.

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin.....there is so much available now...

[13:24] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): http://archive.org/index.php

[13:24] herman Bergson: thnx Penelope

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yeah thanks doll

[13:25] herman Bergson: Besides that Google is digitizing books too, but I dont know a URL for what Google is doing

[13:25] Kime Babenco: My first notion about something mentioned... Humans are animals, is a bit extreme... I think... Of course we are biological and have a natural feeling to survive... But it's not comparable I think

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: i found this: The Project Gutenberg website is for human users only. so its not for animals, isn't it?

[13:25] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): tugs Lizzy's braid from behind

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): For some animals... us

[13:25] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): (Lizzy, behave!)

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): In what way are we not animals, just with big brains?

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well...it is remarkable that Smith already assumed that th ehuman being belongs to the animal kingdom

[13:26] Jaelle Faerye: oh who said we had big brains?

[13:26] herman Bergson: I cant read it otherwise

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so not for me Lizzy? being a 'Beer'?

[13:27] herman Bergson: It surprised me at least....his words

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Some of these apparent philosophical arguments are just arguments about the meanings of words

[13:27] Kime Babenco: Not only... behaviour... as well... And we don't have such as called animal instinct... A lower feeling of intuition maybe, if not mislead by the brains

[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: he was far ahead of his time

[13:27] herman Bergson: Let's keep it a bit serious and to the point plz ㋡

[13:27] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): yes, Prof is trying to make a legitimate point

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): who's not serious

[13:27] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): it's very worth discussing

[13:28] herman Bergson: Most important point in his Wealth of the NAtions is the fact that he clearly stated that labor is the real value of things

[13:28] Mick Nerido: Productivity advances make nations wealthier...

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): So one way we are different is self interest motivates our actions

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe he was not far ahead of his time..maybe we are oldfashion in thinking of the free market

[13:28] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): but Prof, doesn't that lead directly to Marx, yes?

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Penelope....

[13:29] herman Bergson: and in fact to our time too.....

[13:29] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): AND to Ayn Rand"

[13:29] herman Bergson: we have the "rule" that everybody should work....

[13:29] herman Bergson: those who can but do not work we call unemployed…

[13:30] Mick Nerido: or inherited there wealth

[13:30] herman Bergson: so employment is a great value of the free market

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Strange idea.... surely we would be better off with less stuff and more philosophy?

[13:31] herman Bergson: Fact is that in the utopia of Thomas More working was a must too....laziness was forbidden...

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think that is a silly attitude

[13:31] herman Bergson: well full employment has become a believe of our times....

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the people who are unemployed are not nessecarely lazy

[13:31] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): oh I see where Prof is going

[13:31] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): but Prof

[13:32] Mick Nerido: Goes back to Adam and Eve...

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): It reminds me of the workplace boss that just looks to see if you are busy

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): But say we all had friday off - then it wouldn't be laziness - just scaling our efforts better.

[13:32] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): surely this kind of ethic predated the 1700's?

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): and not at what you achieve

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I like efficiency

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): economy of effort if possible

[13:33] herman Bergson: full emplyment was not an idea in the Middle Ages at all...

[13:33] Ana (anasyro): i think these questions put in the discussion can be better anwered by using some of the more actual analysts of our time...like habermas and the tradition that was the basis of his writings

[13:33] herman Bergson: subsistance economy then prevailed

[13:33] Ana (anasyro): somehow we try to connect existential issues with functional ones

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I've heard they had quite a nice life in those days, lots of leisure time

[13:33] Ana (anasyro): and that does not explain the dynamics between them

[13:34] herman Bergson: Our situation is now quite different from Adam Smith's situation....

[13:34] Mick Nerido: The wealthy in Spain for example distain manual labor...

[13:34] herman Bergson: But his analysis is so basic and clear

[13:35] Kime Babenco: Being employed or having a job is a very elastic expression... One can work for a company, or themselves... A fixed salary working from 9 to 5 , or running a business... Or feeling to be part of it ... Inspiration... Not ?

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Mick....manual labor has been disdained tot 1700 or so....

[13:35] Ana (anasyro): bye...have fun

[13:36] Mick Nerido: The unemployed are the new serfs

[13:36] Kime Babenco: I am not promoting any kind of job...

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): serfs used to work though!

[13:37] herman Bergson: I still have no understanding of how to look at our present situation...

[13:37] herman Bergson: this so called free market, which Smith saw emerge in his time.

[13:38] Kime Babenco: As I already told in a previous meeting... The world has seen already the end of communism... and today we are facing that capitalism is not working either

[13:38] herman Bergson: So if you have the opportunity....read at least a few chapters of book one of The Wealth of Nations….

[13:38] Kime Babenco: Not in the way we have had so far

[13:38] herman Bergson: and compare it with our present situation

[13:39] herman Bergson: true Kime

[13:39] herman Bergson: so many are looking for a new answer....

[13:40] herman Bergson: From Tea Party to Keyens

[13:40] WAINSCOT reports: Fred123 Aiten is on your land now!

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): Any answer has to address over population and over consumption fairly

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): external drivers that never existed before

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: the answer can only be a more authoritarian system with more rules

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes....but look at the situation in Greece....

[13:41] herman Bergson: a situation I don't understand at all....

[13:41] Kime Babenco: WE have to find a middle way... a common way... Of course it's a bit normal that someone who works very hard earns more than someone who is unemployed and not even trying to find a job.... But on the other hand, a society is rewarded on what it does for the weak ones... = human society... Otherwise we are animals = survival of the toughest

[13:42] herman Bergson: On the one hand you have had decennia of governments that cheated...

[13:42] herman Bergson: manipulated figures and took the money from the EU

[13:42] herman Bergson: on the other hand there is the population that voted for their governments...

[13:43] Jaelle Faerye: bye all I have to run

[13:43] herman Bergson: and now Greece is forced by the EU to severe financial reductions...

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: the greece don't admit that they cheated

[13:43] herman Bergson: and the people is protesting.....

[13:44] herman Bergson: as if there is a people that is in its rights and a goverment that isnt...

[13:44] Kime Babenco: It's not only that: The financial first rule is that stock holding is the highest risc to earn money... Governments should have never rescued any bank... only paying those people who had save their money there... Not the risc takers

[13:44] herman Bergson: The country is deeply corrupt...

[13:44] herman Bergson: and they don't admit it

[13:45] herman Bergson: Their tax system and its civil servants are corrupt...

[13:45] Fred123 Aiten: can still listen from outside

[13:45] herman Bergson: these are know facts

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): <- quietly listening

[13:45] herman Bergson: I realy don't see how to solve such a situation

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i presume we..that means the EU..are loosing our money to Greece

[13:46] Mick Nerido: Greece will leave the EU

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: in Greece they stop working at the age of 55, in France 60 and in Germany 67

[13:46] Kime Babenco: Yes, very probably... try to bring them for justice... would be hard... costs even more and will not help... Freeze all their families goods and accounts in any country... (if possible !!!)

[13:47] herman Bergson: Netherlands 65

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): South-Africa 65

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): greece is going to bankruptcy

[13:47] herman Bergson: Just the idea of stopping at 55.....we already have problems financing 65

[13:47] herman Bergson: Hello Your Majesty

[13:48] QueenOfNorway Alex raises hand

[13:48] Kime Babenco: That's an idea of when people lived for average as long as 65 years

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: hi queenie, take a seat:-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: Could be Kime

[13:48] QueenOfNorway Alex: oooops

[13:48] Kime Babenco: Remember the Beatles... "will you still love me when I am 64 ?"

[13:49] Qwark Allen: press shfit+arrow to get hand down

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ow..that 's óld!

[13:49] QueenOfNorway Alex: i cannot hear the audio

[13:49] herman Bergson: There is no audio Your Majesty....

[13:49] herman Bergson: We are the silent majority

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:49] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:49] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:49] QueenOfNorway Alex: oh dear :)

[13:49] herman Bergson: Anyway…

[13:50] herman Bergson: try to get hold on The Wealth of NAtions and read a few chapters of book one....

[13:50] Kime Babenco: Yes

[13:50] herman Bergson: it helps to get a better understanding of the free market idea in 1778

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think that all efforts to regain financial stability hinge on changing the model of free energy, ever expanding markets, and consumption. We can't eat our way out of resource depletion.

[13:51] herman Bergson: I agree Debbie.....

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): ;)

[13:51] herman Bergson: The idea of everlasting growth is a myth

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): YESSS

[13:51] herman Bergson: if that is our goal...growth...we are on the wrong track

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That was why I mentioned chain letters once

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yet all efforts by government are about ramping up the growth again.

[13:52] herman Bergson: this earth is a finite object...how can growth then be infinite?

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): exactly

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): People think it is like a balloon expanding. that everything can go on getting bigger

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and then ...POOF..

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: nothing is infinite, ... the universe probably ...

[13:53] Merlin: hehe yes

[13:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): So how do we influence this, so that those in power see the problem correctly?

[13:53] herman Bergson: exactly Beertje ㋡

[13:53] Qwark Allen: not even the universe

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think we need stability

[13:53] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well sorry to be gloomy but I think we have lost it

[13:53] Kime Babenco: When I was at school aged 14, someone asked why people in some countries choose for communism and not for free market... I understand a bit... they had free medicine , free food , and free education in such communist countries... In USA free health care is one step too far it seems

[13:54] herman Bergson: Well....we face a complex future.....

[13:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman, I agree. But the planet will survive. The question now is how many people die off.

[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): young people do anyway

[13:54] herman Bergson: so let's continue with a next lecture on THursday....maybe then we get a little bit wiser then

[13:54] QueenOfNorway Alex: the growth problem we all need to start with ourselves to stop that craving... the "need" to buy new fashion clothes and shoes and everything fancier because fashion changes...

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): This is exactly what James Lovelock says Herman

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): mankind will survive as an animal

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): as a species

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): but not our society

[13:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): Sadly, the ones with the guns will win.

[13:56] herman Bergson: yes maybe we'll be decimated first....then there is room for growth again ㋡

[13:56] QueenOfNorway Alex: i think society can survive... and more easy in areas where they live off the nature

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): a world over-run by tribes with war-lords in charge

[13:56] QueenOfNorway Alex: like where i come from... fishery...

[13:56] Mick Nerido: Thanks all bye

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But Alex.....

[13:56] Qwark Allen: think that soon we`ll be 9 billions

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): You cannot have one part surviving along

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): alone

[13:56] herman Bergson: We'll continue our discussion next Thursday....

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There would be too much pressure from everyone else

[13:56] herman Bergson: for now...thank you all for your participation.... ㋡

[13:57] herman Bergson: class dismissed ^_^

[13:57] Kime Babenco: We all like to help when we see people in trouble on TV . But maybe it's the problem they are too many...

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: Thanks to YOU!

[13:57] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**  **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**   **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:57] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all