460: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 25

Before embarking on the question, if there can exist something universal in human nature, based on the idea that biologically and physiologically we all have the same brain,

I want to bring to your attention, that all our efforts to understand human nature and thence the possibility of moral behavior, is not just an intellectual game or just non-committal interest.

Let me draw for you the whole picture as I see it. Roughly, you can distinguish two brain areas: the limbic system, which evolved in early mammals to control fight-or-flight responses and react to both emotionally pleasurable and painful sensations,

and the prefrontal cortex. The most typical psychological term for functions carried out by the prefrontal cortex area is executive function. 

Executive function relates to abilities to differentiate among conflicting thoughts, determine good and bad, better and best, same and different, 

future consequences of current activities, working toward a defined goal, prediction of outcomes, expectation based on actions, and social "control" (the ability to suppress urges that, if not suppressed, could lead to socially unacceptable outcomes).

In my previous lecture I associated the limbic system with Aristotelian thinking and the prefrontal cortex with Kantian thinking, moral behavior based on drives and intentions and  moral behavior based on a sense of duty.

Then this morning I read the headline "Man is apparently not so rational after all". Who has attended my lectures for some time now, may not even blink. I have already pointed several times at this fact.

But the writer of the article is talking about economists and how they, before the rise of behavioral economics, regarded man as an individual that made decisions based on rational considerations.

Just take this example. Ask someone how much he will pay for a nice present. Say, it is 10 dollar. You sell it for 10 dollar. Then ask him to sell it back to you. Eight out of ten would ask more than 10 dollar for that.

Possessing something makes it suddenly more valuable, it appears. They call it "loss aversion", which also might explain why housing prices rarely decline to market clearing levels. Irrational of course.

Ask someone what he want…..10 dollar now …or 20 dollar next week. Most people seem to take the 10 dollar. The present seems to have greater value than the future. Als irrational.

And we are so easily manipulated. Happens every day. A book priced 19.99 dollar sells, the one priced 20.00 dollar doesn't. 

What consequences  has this for a government? Should the government base policies, rules and regulations on the optimistic illusion, that people are mainly rational beings?

Or should the government rely on the truth who we really are: manipulable,  conservative, short term thinkers, who also poorly calculate?

It is interesting to look at things from this perspective. At least in the Netherlands for every employee it is mandatory to participate in a pension fund. Leave it to the workers themselves and you'll may expect problems  at old age.

On the other hand, the Department of Housing has approved of a kind of mortgage, which creates lower monthly payments for starters on the housing market.

This to get something moving again in this dead market. However, lower monthly payments, but after 30 years the mortgage is not paid off, 

like would be with a decent mortgage and higher monthly payments. Only 50% is paid off and you are left with a debt of about a 100.000 euro or more!

This is aiming at our weakness of short term thinking for a short term political and economical goal. "This is going to cost consumers a lot of money", was said to a spokesman of the Department of Housing.

"We know", he answered, "but people don't need to buy such a mortgage. They have a choice and they will make that choice deliberately."

Here you see how human nature and politics come together. Put this in the perspective of slogans like "Less government" or "Not the free market is the problem, the government is the problem."

What government do you choose, one which bases its politics on who we hope to be - thinking people who make more or less rational choices, or one which bases it policies on who we really are?

As you see, you find our modern philosophical issues in your morning newspaper, which tells you about all national and international news.

So let's repeat our next question: does the apparent biological and physiological resemblance of brains also imply at least a promise of some kind of universal moral understanding?

The Discussion

[13:25] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:25] Debbie DJ: I feel manipulated ;)

[13:25] Debbie DJ: Thanks Herman

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

[13:25] Merlin: The problem with long term thinking is that sometimes 'Tomorrow never comes', and especially younger people will think that way.

[13:25] herman Bergson: I can imagine Debbie :-)

[13:26] Merlin: There is a saying, A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush

[13:26] .: Beertje :.: tomorrow doesn't exist..it's always now..

[13:26] Merlin: meaning that certainty now is more valuable than a promise for tomorrow

[13:26] Debbie DJ: Yes merlin, and financial tools discount future values due to uncertainty...

[13:26] herman Bergson: yes Merlin...and you are right Beertje....that is our basic mistake

[13:27] herman Bergson: so take the 10 dollars:-)

[13:27] Debbie DJ: And let the government worry about the future on your behalf...

[13:27] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:27] herman Bergson: My basic issue here is that in our brain there is a constant battle going on

[13:27] Merlin: yes, that £10 / £20 thing .... you have to ask, 'can you believe the promise?'

[13:27] Gemma Allen: is true

[13:28] herman Bergson: yes Merlin...uncertainty....

[13:28] Debbie DJ: Some of the promises made daily, especially via advertising, are very rich - and unbelievable

[13:28] herman Bergson: that is exactly what is going on in our minds...

[13:28] herman Bergson: on the one hand...

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: politicians get votes with little presents and promises which concern our short term thinking

[13:29] herman Bergson: rationally you would say...waiting one week delivers me 200%...

[13:29] herman Bergson: but then there is that feeling of uncertainty.....fear...

[13:29] Merlin: Regarding the link between our thinking and economics, I noticed that when they replaced the £1 note with a small coin it caused people to spend more freely.....

[13:29] herman Bergson: so you grab the 10 bucks

[13:29] Merlin: Inflation!

[13:30] Debbie DJ: there is a scale factor here... size. If it is an insignificant amount - it is easier to take the risk of losing..

[13:30] herman Bergson: Makes me think of what I observed last week...

[13:30] Merlin: But Debbie, isn't that another example of illogical thinking?

[13:31] herman Bergson: a kid if 6 had a 2 5 euro bills...

[13:31] Merlin: If you think a horse is worth a bet, it should be worth a big bet

[13:31] herman Bergson: the mother wanted to give the kid a 10 euro bill for she needed the 5 euro bills

[13:31] Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:31] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:31] Gemma Allen: i can see it coming

[13:31] herman Bergson: Hell broke loose..

[13:31] herman Bergson: Impossible deal....:-)

[13:32] Debbie DJ: Yeah Merlin. Some people even go gambling ;) tax for people who cant calculate ;)

[13:32] .: Beertje :.: of course..he had 2 bills and mother offered just 1

[13:32] herman Bergson: Exactly...:-)

[13:32] herman Bergson: the number 5 or 10 had no meaning at all

[13:33] herman Bergson: tho the kid can count

[13:33] .: Beertje :.: never offer 1 bill:)

[13:33] herman Bergson: but what I wanted to say...

[13:33] herman Bergson: there is a constant battle going on in our brain

[13:34] herman Bergson: between the limbic system and the prefrontal cortex...

[13:34] Debbie DJ: A corporate observation is that about 80% of work time is spent on trivial stuff - like painting the bike shed, or getting pencils, and 20% is real useful work with customers...

[13:35] Merlin: Hmmm.. the workplace... dont get me started on that!

[13:35] Merlin: Luckly Bejiita is not here too

[13:35] Debbie DJ: So we are not good at picking our priority puzzles ...

[13:35] herman Bergson: Ohhh..makes me think of DELL Debbie

[13:35] Debbie DJ: Dell?

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes the computer firm....

[13:35] herman Bergson: The owner wants to take it form the stock market...so He buys all stocks...

[13:36] Debbie DJ: they must be good - their logo is in front of me ;)

[13:36] herman Bergson: But the management is against...

[13:36] Merlin: hehe I have a Dell too

[13:36] herman Bergson: because they got bonuses in stocks and options...

[13:36] Merlin: Some advisors say that guy is making a bad move

[13:37] Debbie DJ: Its certainly an unexpected move...

[13:37] herman Bergson: Sorry..dont know why it comes to my mind :-)

[13:37] Merlin: Dell is old technology and will not prosper

[13:37] Merlin: He said

[13:38] Merlin: I don't know either Herman... psychology?

[13:38] Debbie DJ: It seems that computer manufacturers have largely missed the migration to pads and smart phones

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well it was said that productivity increased when the employees received bonuses...:-)

[13:38] Merlin: That was the issue Debbie, yes

[13:38] herman Bergson: ahh...interesting observation Debbie

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: i am glad they cut the bonuses in swiss now

[13:39] herman Bergson: Real world experience....

[13:39] herman Bergson: I went on vacation to Schiermonnikoog....

[13:39] herman Bergson: took my laptop and iPad with me...

[13:39] herman Bergson: never unpacked the laptop..:-)

[13:39] Debbie DJ: Bonuses are heygine issues according to management practices...

[13:40] Debbie DJ: Short term motivators...

[13:40] Gemma Allen: could you get to sl with the ipad?

[13:40] herman Bergson: No Gemma

[13:40] Gemma Allen: :-)

[13:40] Gemma Allen: but everything else i bet

[13:40] herman Bergson: But I was only away for a week...I can hold my breath that long in SL:-)

[13:40] Merlin: Well look at Haku, she is using a mobile phone for this

[13:41] herman Bergson: Does she??

[13:41] Debbie DJ: Oh? Haku?

[13:41] Debbie DJ: are you on a phone?

[13:41] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:41] Gemma Allen: there is a program you can get

[13:41] Gemma Allen: text only?????

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: but you can only chat with it, right?

[13:41] herman Bergson: SL on your mobile????

[13:41] herman Bergson: wow 

[13:41] Merlin: I have known others to use mobile phones too

[13:41] Gemma Allen: text

[13:41] Merlin: No

[13:42] Gemma Allen: no?

[13:42] Merlin: With text only you cannot move about

[13:42] Gemma Allen: the whole thing??

[13:42] Merlin: or see anything

[13:42] Gemma Allen: right

[13:42] Debbie DJ: haku, can you see us?

[13:42] Merlin: She seems to be akf

[13:42] Merlin: akf

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: Hey Haku, ... waves*

[13:42] Merlin: afk

[13:42] Debbie DJ: afk

[13:42] Gemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:42] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:42] Merlin: lol

[13:42] herman Bergson smiles

[13:42] Debbie DJ: or aak - asleep at keyboard

[13:43] herman Bergson: anyway....

[13:43] Merlin: hahaha Debbie :)

[13:43] herman Bergson: as you see...our brain and what politics we want are closely related..

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: i have a program for the iphone for sl

[13:43] Gemma Allen: can you see

[13:43] Gemma Allen: ?

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: you can only see the map

[13:44] herman Bergson: Now we need to investigate the question...can there be something universal in mankind due to that brain????

[13:44] herman Bergson: but I see..real students...

[13:44] Debbie DJ: well, there is a lot universal...

[13:45] herman Bergson: more interested in iPhones than a discussion..:-)

[13:45] Gemma AllenGemma Allen GIGGLES!!

[13:45] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:45] herman Bergson: So Class dismissed...lol

[13:45] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:45] Debbie DJ: Like love ;) and a desire to get our children educated

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: it is getting a part of our brain

[13:45] herman Bergson: Thank you all again :-)

[13:45] Debbie DJ: oops too late - have to wait till next week

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:46] Debbie DJ: thanks Herman... good lecture.

[13:46] Gemma Allen: Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:46] Gemma Allen: for now

[13:46] herman Bergson: thnx Debbie :-)

[13:46] Vadaman: Thank you so much prof.

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: we stay here until you say us what our brains have in common Herman :-)

[13:47] herman Bergson smiles

[13:47] herman Bergson: thought so...

[13:47] Debbie DJ: they all turn into jelly with too much tv :)))

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well we al have the reptile brain to begin with...

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: true Debbie

[13:48] Merlin: Well my thought was that if the brain is universal to mankind, then it will give all mankind those universal qualities

[13:48] herman Bergson: that is evolutionary the oldest part...

[13:48] Debbie DJ: well got to go...

[13:48] Debbie DJ: night all...

[13:49] Vadaman: Bye!

[13:49] Merlin: Bye Debbie

[13:49] herman Bergson: Bye Debbie

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: night debbie and fred

[13:49] .: Beertje :.: bye debbie

[13:49] Debbie DJ: see you all next week... byeee

[13:49] Fred123 Aiten: night everyone

[13:50] herman Bergson: the most interesting part of the brain is the prefrontal cortex....

[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: the Kant part

[13:50] herman Bergson: because that is the part that makes us as mammals unique...

[13:50] herman Bergson: yes...

[13:51] herman Bergson: When that part gets damaged we stop being moral beings....

[13:51] Merlin: Isnt Autism a bit like that?

[13:52] herman Bergson: No...

[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: its always tragic when a man gets a brain damage

[13:52] herman Bergson: Autism is a problem with connections in the brain....

[13:52] herman Bergson: I recently read an article about it...

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: you mean the synapses?

[13:53] Merlin: Autistic people are said to lack empathy

[13:53] herman Bergson: a normal brain has longer and wider connections than a brain of an autistic person...

[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes they do...

[13:54] herman Bergson: But Phineas Gage is the historical example of what becomes of you when the prefrontal lobe is destroyed

[13:54] herman Bergson: before the accident he was a real decent person....

[13:55] herman Bergson: after the accident he just became an uncontrolled person..to say it in a decent way

[13:55] herman Bergson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

[13:57] herman Bergson: an amazing story this man....

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: just reading it*

[13:58] herman Bergson: a classic example of the first neuro scientific insights

[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: I have to go , Thank you again for the wonderful lecture, Good night everybody

[13:58] Merlin: Goodnight Lizzy

[13:58] Merlin: I will go too now

[13:59] herman Bergson: Bye Lizzy

[13:59] Vadaman: Bye!

[13:59] Lizzy Pleides: byee, waves*

[13:59] Merlin: Bye everyone

[14:00] .: Beertje :.: sorry I didn't write anymore..I was struggleing with windows 8...

[14:00] herman Bergson: Can happen :-)

459: The Art Not to Be an Egoist 24

Last night I watched the "The Mist". Maybe you know this movie made in 2007 and based on a novel of Stephen King.

A group of people gets trapped in a supermarket, besieged by horrible giant insects. There in a few minutes the whole debate on human nature comes passing by.

There is a religious fanatic, who scares the hell out of the people by claiming that this is the proof of God's wrath because of the wickedness of the sinful human being.

Then there is the man, who says "Look around! Take away the rules and men become animals, beasts!" In tears a young woman, the teacher in the village, exclaims: "No, that  can't be true. Man is good!"

In no time we got them all in line: man as sinner, man as beast and man as a good individual. Would the real man please stand up?!

We have arrived at an historical moment in the debate on human nature. I call it historical because evolutionary, psychological and neurobiological insights begin to reveal the facts, which show to be so closely related yo old philosophical insights.

It appears to me that man has known all ins and outs about human nature from the beginning of thinking, that is from the moment that he left magical and religious explanations of reality behind.

That is what Aristotle did. He tried to understand nature as it was in itself. No magic, yet some metaphysical assumptions, especially his belief in the TELOS of things.

"Telos" means goal, so his philosophy was teleological. All that exists has an intrinsic goal. The seed is potentially a tree and its actuality is being that tree eventually.

This is all very simplified but the basic idea is that when a human being is born it potentially can become a virtues person, which is the actuality of man.

It means, that intrinsically a human being in fact is driven, wants to become the real actuality of adulthood, which is being a person in eudaimonia, in balance with himself and his environment.

But there comes the religious fanatic…yelling "but we are all sinners!" And yes indeed we do not want to be an Egoist and yet it seems to be an Art not to be one.

How so? What is missing in this picture? Isn't Aristotle's idea  too individualistic. Maybe my moral behavior emerges from the desire to be good.

But what about a person, who just doesn't want to be good? Where are the moral rules? And where are the mandatory and reasonable standards  for all?

It was Immanuel Kant (1724 - 1804), who intended to mend this weak spot in Aristotle's philosophy. Kant is known for his theory that there is a single moral obligation, which he called the "Categorical Imperative", 

and is derived from the concept of duty. Kant defines the demands of the moral law as "categorical imperatives". Categorical imperatives are principles that are intrinsically valid;

they are good in and of themselves; they must be obeyed in all, and by all, situations and circumstances if our behavior is to observe the moral law. 

He believed that the moral law is a principle of reason itself, and is not based on contingent facts about the world. Accordingly, he believed that moral obligation applies only to rational agents.

Thus the complex machinery of our brain and the way it works, our human nature, was reduced to reason. Kant's theory was logical, but not very psychological, but yet it dominated ethics for the past two centuries at least.

Today however, in Western culture individual hedonism plays a part again and related to that our observation that we also are members of a society.

Thence we face the two sides of a coin with respect to human nature: the Aristotelian side and the Kantian side. Individual ethics and universal moral laws.

Is there something common to all human beings , that makes it possible for us not to be an Egoist?

The Discussion

[13:27] Debbie DJ: love

[13:27] herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: we want love yes

[13:27] herman Bergson: Not a bad observation Debbie....but..... (as always)

[13:28] StevenHow: not all ppl

[13:28] Debbie DJ: love transcends ego...at some times in our lives

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you herman

[13:28] Debbie DJ: yes.. thanks herman.

[13:28] StevenHow: :)

[13:28] Debbie DJ: so in this postulate, evil is the disobeying of the kantian imperatives?

[13:29] herman Bergson: Your remark is a hint for the subject of the next lecture Debbie....

[13:29] Debbie DJ: shhh

[13:29] herman Bergson: is there something like a universal ethics?

[13:29] Debbie DJ: The ten commandments are so for christians... and are not a bad set of rules...

[13:29] Merlin: Well earlier I thought an answer to one question was THE LAW

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hmm i would think there should be one but

[13:29] herman Bergson: What I find so interesting of Aristotle and kant....

[13:30] Merlin: Universal rules for society or something like that

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: more complicated then it sounds i guess

[13:30] StevenHow: there is common ground for sure but universal not so sure

[13:30] herman Bergson: Aristotle refers mainly to the limbic system of the brain

[13:30] herman Bergson: while Kant only relies on the prefrontal lobe

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: but they didn't know about the functions

[13:31] herman Bergson: that what I mean by referring to contemporary scientific findings about the human being..

[13:31] herman Bergson: No Lizzy....they didn't and that makes is so amazing....

[13:31] StevenHow: ops have to go herman sorry :( RL

[13:32] herman Bergson: ok Steven :-)

[13:32] Merlin: bye

[13:32] herman Bergson: Take care

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: bye Steven

[13:32] Vadaman: Bye Steven.

[13:32] Debbie DJ: bye steven

[13:32] StevenHow: thanks though and you :) bye guys

[13:32] Merlin: hehe I guess he's a married man

[13:32] herman Bergson: If you take the history of philosophy as the dairy of the thinking individual

[13:33] herman Bergson: then you read in it that we already understood from the beginning about human nature

[13:33] Vadaman: Please don't laugh about married men Merlin. (lol)

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:33] herman Bergson grins

[13:33] Merlin: lol

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:33] herman Bergson: funny species merlin I agree :-)

[13:34] Debbie DJ: Theres a set of ethical and moral rules - marriage ;)

[13:34] herman Bergson: oh my ,yes Debbie....

[13:34] herman Bergson: Well even that is interesting.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: when you look at different cultures and the phenomenon of marriage

[13:35] herman Bergson: and the set of moral rules that come with it

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:35] Debbie DJ: What is interesting is that it takes the form of a social contract, with community witnesses

[13:35] herman Bergson: animals just mate once in a season....humans do it differently :-)

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: not all animals

[13:36] Debbie DJ: Yes. We also take a long time to raise our children

[13:36] Merlin: There are some who pair for life but Im sure you all know

[13:36] herman Bergson: which are the lucky ones Lizzy :-)

[13:36] Merlin: Swans might be an example

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:36] herman Bergson: YEs there are Merlin....

[13:36] herman Bergson: Pelicans too

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: penguins are faithful

[13:37] MerlinMerlin nods

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:37] herman Bergson: Incredible Lizzy...when you see those huge colonies of penguins :-))

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: true

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: what i dont get is how they can see the difference, all pengiuns look the same and so does most other animals of the same race

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: no unique faces like we have

[13:38] herman Bergson: But to get back the the main issue..the philosophical understanding of human nature

[13:38] Debbie DJ: you didn't look close enough Bej

[13:39] herman Bergson: many philosophical ideas are correlated with the working of the brain areas

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: all bulldogs look the same to me ect

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: maybe some differences but a person i can see on distance who it is

[13:39] herman Bergson: That Bejiita is a very amazing fact....

[13:40] Debbie DJ: Try doing that in a foreign country, where the people look different...

[13:40] herman Bergson: and believe me...penguins can do the same :-)

[13:40] herman Bergson: But believe me...I was in Japan once....for a few weeks....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hmm there are some main characteristics but if i know a person no matter of asian or whatever i can see " there u are!"

[13:40] herman Bergson: and all the faces looked almost the same tome....

[13:41] Merlin: Yes that is a common thing

[13:41] Merlin: Or maybe less so in the modern world

[13:41] herman Bergson: But let's get back to our main subject here....

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: my best friend is adopted from thailand for ex and even if we would be down there i would recognize him no prob

[13:42] herman Bergson: the fact that through history philosophers showed an understanding of human nature, where we now also have amore scientific one which confirms their insight 

[13:42] herman Bergson: That is what I see in the Aristotelian and Kantian views

[13:42] Debbie DJ: yay... the old guys were actually pretty smart...

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ah ㋡

[13:42] MerlinMerlin smiles

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...when you think of it....an Aristotle 2000 years ago...

[13:43] .: Beertje :.: maybe over 2000 years they say Debbie was pretty smart..

[13:43] herman Bergson: So our next question is....is there hope for us.....

[13:44] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:44] herman Bergson: Oh I say already today that she is Beertje ^_^

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: that i hope

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: hope

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:44] Merlin: Well you probably know my views on that

[13:45] Merlin: I dont want to depress everybody

[13:45] .: Beertje :.: yes..but I mean..over 2000 years the world is complete different..what we think here and now..did the people 2000 years ago the same

[13:45] herman Bergson: Do we go under in complete individualism or does our being a social animal save the world?

[13:45] .: Beertje :.: i think our social animal HAS to save the world

[13:46] Debbie DJ: Good question... but I kind of feel depressed about the likely answer ;(

[13:46] Debbie DJ: like merlin!

[13:46] Merlin: The big problem is that the consequences follow many years later

[13:46] Merlin: and they will become irreversible

[13:46] herman Bergson: The remark of Beertje implies that there seems to be some need for this world to exist

[13:47] Merlin: There is no such need

[13:47] Merlin: But I think that is what you will say too Herman

[13:47] herman Bergson: Are we a coincidence of are we more on this world or is this a senseless remark

[13:47] Debbie DJ: senseless sentence???

[13:48] herman Bergson: I would say....

[13:48] herman Bergson: we ARE.....

[13:48] herman Bergson: and whatever you think about it....

[13:48] herman Bergson: we have to deal with it :-))

[13:48] Debbie DJ: If we are all about hedonism, and feeling good, we need to learn to party better, at lower cost...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: maybee that

[13:49] Debbie DJ: like we do i sl ;))))

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:49] Debbie DJ: hey - sl could save the world!

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: always some fun in here

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:50] herman Bergson: ok then...on to the next lecture...is there a universal ethics...?

[13:50] herman Bergson: Thank you all again for your participation

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: sounds like an interesting subject

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: have been thinking about it a lot recently myself

[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:51] Lizzy Pleides: thanks to YOU Herman

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] Merlin: Hang on, is this a whole new topic or a continuation of this one about Egoism?

[13:52] Debbie DJ: Thanks Herman, and the rest of you philosophers ;)

[13:52] herman Bergson: it still is a continuation of the same topic Merlin

[13:52] Merlin: Yes ok ty

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: yes i guess it is

[13:52] Vadaman: Thanks Herman.

[13:52] herman Bergson: No if there would be a new topic....

[13:52] Merlin: yes?

[13:52] herman Bergson: I am thinking about the existence of Evil....

[13:53] herman Bergson: The question "Why is there evil in this world?"

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: i have to go off unfortunately, good night everybody

[13:53] Merlin: Good night Lizzy

[13:53] Debbie DJ: I will be here for that series.....

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu lizzy

[13:53] .: Beertje :.: only good would be boring....

[13:53] herman Bergson: Which already seems to imply that we didnt master the art not to be an Egoist ^_^

[13:53] Debbie DJ: bye Liz

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hmm good question indeed

[13:54] herman Bergson: You have a point there Beertje!

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: is egoism evil? well a form of evil maybe, since u dont care about others

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: dont know

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: tricky

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: and what is evil really?

[13:54] herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita

458: The Art Not to be an Egoist 23

When we look in the mirror we want to see a happy and content face, independent of the question whether this mirror in de presidential suite in a Hilton Hotel or in our own bathroom.

This was my last sentence of the previous lecture and it leaves us with a serious question: what is a happy and content face, what does it mean to "feel good", or to use Aristotle's term, enjoy the "eudaimonia"?

That is hard to say. It is not some predetermined quality of human nature. And for knowing what it means you need more than only a sharp and enlightened rationality.

Aristotle is here apparently in the same position as Larry Flint, the editor of Hustler, when he was sued. He provoked the judge by asking:"Can you give me a definition of pornography?"

"No I can not", said the judge, "but I recognize it, when I see it". And isn't it not the same with the Good? You can not exactly define it, but you recognize it as such, when you see it.

So, no exact definition perhaps. And there is a second problem. With ethics it is the same as with someone watching a soccer game on TV, or a lover, or a math student.

To know how it is done,  by far doesn't mean, that you can play soccer, make love or solve the math problem. Only through experience we learn, what feels good in the long run and gives meaning to our life.

Through sometimes tedious learning and practicing we understand how we can keep our feelings and ratio in balance. We need both for a good life.

You certainly know the simplistic description of human nature as being split up in rationality and feeling. The eternal debate that you should be rational….no! you should primarily follow your feelings.

When we are smart, we teach ourselves to get our lust and emotions and our rational insights into harmony. And we teach ourselves to be fair to other people. 

A life without respectability is hardly possible. We want to find respect and recognition in ourselves and want to experience this from people around us. These are two sides of the same coin.

After our birth we do not enter this world with a complete blank, a tabula rasa. We are part of the biological system of the primates and have, so to speak, our "instincts".

But achieving a fulfilled and rewarding life, can only be the result of a long learning process by education and training. In terms of Aristotle is means that we have to learn and train our good features, our virtues.

Virtues like fairness, honesty, compassion, respect, peacefulness, responsability. Aristotle never came up with a specific list or order of importance.

He thought of human nature as being a unity, a whole, that could be trained and educated to become a virtuous person with a character-solid identity.

Here we run into a few problems. Aristotle hadn't the slightest idea that spraying some Oxyticin in the nose of people can change social behavior seriously, virtue or not. Or the Millgram experiments or the behavior of camp guards.

An other problem with this Aristotelian character-solid identity is, that we don't like it. Just think! How tempting is it to a thoroughly virtuous human being?

What is so convincing in it, that I want to become one? Besides that, how realistic is it? Which human being can say of himself that he is 100% good, 100% virtuous?

Ok…to prevent that this lecture becomes to long, I leave it this….an open end to be resolved next Tuesday.

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you

[13:23] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:23] Debbie DJ: *•.¸♥MwAHh♥¸.•*

[13:23] Debbie DJ: - ill have to read the website

[13:23] Debbie DJ: darn...

[13:23] Gemma Allen: not sure about Aristotle all the time

[13:23] Andret Beck: Thank you prof ^^

[13:23] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:23] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:23] Vadaman: Thank you prof.

[13:24] Debbie DJ: thanks herman

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:24] herman Bergson: I guess the basic idea is very Greek....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: seems so

[13:24] herman Bergson: The belief that you can be educated and educate yourself to become a virtuous person...

[13:25] Gemma Allen: or a warrior like spartans

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:25] Gemma Allen: the whole culture would shape you

[13:25] Debbie DJ: Virtuous is defined by the societal values in which you live.

[13:25] Fred123 Aiten: is there an agreed definition of virtuosity?

[13:25] herman Bergson: but as I said..Aristotle missed neurobiological and psychological knowledge we have today

[13:25] Gemma Allen: right

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes that was not known by then

[13:25] Debbie DJ: so evil is when these values are undermined by your actions

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: that could be a definition maybe

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: dont know

[13:26] Andret Beck: (but who say us that being virtuous is the right path?)

[13:26] Debbie DJ: I thought that out yesterday ;)

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well here is in fact the problem I want to address Tuesday

[13:27] Andret Beck: (I would like to ask this question to Nietzsche ^^)

[13:27] herman Bergson: Ok hold on.....

[13:27] Fred123 Aiten: If I become a cannibal living in the jungle with other cannibals does that make me virtuous?

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: when your evil you do everything to hurt others so the total opposite of a virtuous person

[13:27] herman Bergson: First to respond to Andret....

[13:27] herman Bergson: I would say that there is no right path at all....

[13:28] herman Bergson: The idea of a right path is some metaphysical assumption about human nature...

[13:28] herman Bergson: soI think...a debate about the right path misses the point....

[13:28] Merlin: Interesting view Herman

[13:28] herman Bergson: But then what?

[13:29] Merlin: I dont disagree but some would disagree strongly

[13:29] herman Bergson: To talk about the "right" path is to talk about the human being as a product of evolution

[13:29] Debbie DJ: evil is different in different cultures - a cannibal is not evil within his own society.

[13:29] Debbie DJ: "right" is like normal or average...

[13:30] Merlin: It is contrary to most religions isn't it?

[13:30] Fred123 Aiten: but does that make it ok to be a cannibal?

[13:30] herman Bergson: we are talking about the right path...not evil atm

[13:30] herman Bergson: stick to the subject plz

[13:30] Debbie DJ: I use the idea of evil to illuminate right ;)

[13:31] herman Bergson: the point is that what you would call the "right " path regarding to virtues for instance is just basic behavior of primates

[13:31] Gemma Allen: HMMM

[13:31] Debbie DJ: I dont agree.

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:31] herman Bergson: For instance....

[13:31] Debbie DJ: or rather, i am not convinced....

[13:32] herman Bergson: it has been shown that bonobo apes have a sense of ..at least unfairness

[13:32] Debbie DJ: yes

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:32] Andret Beck: I also believe that animals, even wild ones, have a kind of "ethic"

[13:32] herman Bergson: what I mean is...us being more complex in brain structure have equal ideas and far more developed....

[13:33] herman Bergson: which we now call ethics

[13:33] herman Bergson: No Andret I am sorry

[13:33] Andret Beck: look at them while playing (Huizinga), they just pretend to beat each other

[13:33] Debbie DJ: In our previous ethics lecture, I think you concluded that ethics related to the normal values for a society?

[13:34] herman Bergson: as far as we know animals are not able to reflect on their behavior and evaluate it in terms of good and bad...they just follow instinct and learnt behavior

[13:34] Fred123 Aiten: so a gang of bank robbers are ethical because in their society they are all the same?

[13:35] Debbie DJ: yes fred. not your ethics, but true to the norm of their ethics

[13:35] herman Bergson: to call them robbers is already a moral judgement Fred..?

[13:35] Fred123 Aiten: so ethical behaviours can be whatever you want it to be

[13:35] herman Bergson: There you have a point Fred....

[13:35] Debbie DJ: no - it is the norm for the society..

[13:35] Debbie DJ: yes

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: maybe you are ethical when you follow your own principles and values

[13:36] herman Bergson: also a typical remark Lizzy

[13:36] Andret Beck: well, Herman, I see animals differently. I think that they are not "random beings" and that the word "instictual" has been too over used

[13:36] Merlin: Yes I like what Lizzy said

[13:36] Andret Beck: (this is just my point of view)

[13:37] herman Bergson: SO far we have reached a point in our investigation of human nature that seems to tellus that it all depends on what we want individually...

[13:37] Debbie DJ: the evil bit has to be contrasted here. I put it to you that unethical societal behaviour is called evil. like terrorists are eveil for those terrorized.

[13:37] herman Bergson: so ...every person his own set of standards ...

[13:37] herman Bergson: we all know that that is not the case in our world...

[13:38] Fred123 Aiten: so if I am part of the bank robbers gang and then hand the others over to the police, I am evil?

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes from the aristotelian point of view..it is all about living a good live....fulfilled and rewarding....

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: seems logical

[13:38] herman Bergson: From the point of view of the bank robber yes I would say :-)

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hmm tricky indeed fred

[13:39] Debbie DJ: i agree

[13:39] herman Bergson: but yet you still call them robbers fred....

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: in their ethics you are evil but i guess in the general ethics that is the true good ur good

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: the ethics that we all must try follow to make the world better

[13:39] Debbie DJ: yes... so looking at evil, makes me think that good is what is not evil

[13:40] herman Bergson: The idea of Aristotle was rather optimistic....

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: its tricky

[13:40] Debbie DJ: ie normal societal behaviour that feels good

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: and make all benefit on ot and be happy

[13:40] herman Bergson: he believed that eventually every human being wants to be a good human being....a virtuous human to live a life in harmony, in eudaimonia with his environment

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: that i guess is the general ethics standard

[13:41] herman Bergson: In real this doesn't seem to be the whole picture.....

[13:41] Fred123 Aiten: but we haven't defined what being a good human being means

[13:41] herman Bergson: there is also something in ethics called "you OUGHT to do this or that"

[13:42] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: its so tricky to try to define even if i d say i know the answer

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: very complex subject

[13:42] Debbie DJ: that is the bit added by governments or kings - to benefit their income ;)

[13:42] Gemma Allen: ♥ LOL ♥

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: but basically a bit what i said there before

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: have to check a bit more on this

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: but i know how i want the world to be

[13:43] Debbie DJ: how?

[13:43] herman Bergson: Well Debbie....they misused this idea of moral obligation, I would say

[13:43] Gemma Allen: the whole world??

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: no wars no greed no starvation and everyone is happy and nice to each other

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: sadly thats not gonna happen it seems

[13:44] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita...that is more or less the point...

[13:44] Debbie DJ: and can the Randian bankers ever deliver that Utopia, I ask humbly?

[13:44] herman Bergson: We all know it could be like that and YET we don't act according to that idea

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: very true

[13:44] Gemma Allen: never

[13:44] Debbie DJ: as individuals we do - as groups we don't

[13:44] herman Bergson: No Debbie....Ayn Rand is a cultural major disaster...

[13:45] herman Bergson: a narrow minded view on human nature

[13:45] Fred123 Aiten: I'm not sure that we do as individuals.

[13:45] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:45] Debbie DJ: - just baiting you Herman...

[13:45] herman Bergson: You caught a big fish Debbie ^_^

[13:45] herman Bergson: congrats :-))

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: one thing we need to do is stop blowing each other up with explosives and weapond as happens everywhere now

[13:45] Debbie DJ: Individuals to me seem to all strive to be happy

[13:46] herman Bergson: yes Debbie......and that will be our next question...

[13:46] Debbie DJ: but as groups - we blow each other up, and exploit each other.

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] Fred123 Aiten: happiness or wealth Debbie. Seems the latter to me is viewed as more important

[13:46] Andret Beck: well, I don't know whether we do so individuals or by group, you know, some times people act in a certain way only in order to communicate some thing to the group

[13:47] Gemma Allen: true

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:47] Andret Beck: so people act as individuals but only to communicate to the group

[13:47] Andret Beck: (for instance politicians ^^)

[13:47] Debbie DJ: Fred, we are under the mistaken illusion that wealth brings happiness.... despite the costs

[13:47] Fred123 Aiten: very true

[13:47] Debbie DJ: true andret

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:48] herman Bergson: Wealth doesn't bring happiness at all...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: why have 100 million dollars if you cant buy stuff but just pile it up, and u cant buy friends

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: friends u get by being nice and social

[13:48] Gemma Allen: i would still like to try

[13:48] herman Bergson  grins

[[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: that i like happiness on the costs of your neighbor

[13:48] herman Bergson: me too Gemma :-))

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: aha

[13:48] Fred123 Aiten: I agree totally but wherever I look people are totally focussed on wealth

[13:48] Gemma Allen  GIGGLES!!

[13:48] Gemma Allen: ...LOL...

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: its crazy

[13:49] Debbie DJ: And of course - gross consumption is consuming our planet, and us ;(

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: more money more MOOORE MOOOOOORE!

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: thats all they want

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: true as well

[13:49] herman Bergson: There is plenty of research that shows that the accumulation of wealth does not increase your feeling of happiness.

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: today they make stuff so it should break and we have to spend more money to buy new things while the toxic scrap heaps grow

[13:50] Debbie DJ: cool thing in sl is you can behave like a monk in rl and buy all this cheap virtual stuff to satisfy your cravings ;)

[13:50] Gemma Allen: Yes-ah!

[13:50] herman Bergson: ok...when you give me a Mercedes I might feel happy about that.....but that feeling of happiness is not lasting...

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hahahah yes

[13:50] Gemma Allen: and lots of freebies too

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:50] herman Bergson: after a month I just drive a big car

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: aha

[[13:51] herman Bergson: It seems that every person has some kind of happiness level....

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: i want mine to be as high as possible

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: you may feel unhappy or overjoyed...but eventually your feelings return to that old level

[13:51] Debbie DJ: I still think we should immediately change to a 4 day working week, and spend more time seeing our friends

[13:52] Debbie DJ:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:52] Debbie DJ: bejita

[13:52] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:52] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:52] herman Bergson: I agree Debbie...:-)

[13:52] Gemma Allen: good idea

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:52] Fred123 Aiten: I like that idea Debbie

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:52] Debbie DJ: it will cut our consumption too....

[13:52] Vadaman: lol

[13:52] Fred123 Aiten: do we all have to take a cut in salary though?

[13:52] Qwark Allen: we are still in the 18th century idea of work

[13:52] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:52] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: maybe

[13:52] herman Bergson: It all boils down to just redistribution of resources of this planet

[13:52] Debbie DJ: yes herman

[13:52] Qwark Allen: work the most possible, till you have no more strengths

[13:53] herman Bergson: we still are not yet able to do that

[13:53] Qwark Allen: then no mood for friends

[13:53] Debbie DJ: especially when you look at fractional reserve currency, and quantitative easing...

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:53] Gemma Allen: another issue

[13:53] Andret Beck: (Enlightment, Industrialization, Exlpoiting, super machines etc. and we are still not able to reduce are working? T____T)

[13:54] Gemma Allen: have to go soon party today at the corner

[13:54] Gemma Allen: bring requests

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: we have to feed many people who don't want to work

[13:54] herman Bergson: Like Clint Eastwood said "A man has to know his limitations" Andret :-)

[13:54] Gemma Allen: ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:54] Gemma Allen: herman

[13:54] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[13:54] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:54] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:54] Andret Beck: ahaha .... yeah, I agree Herman ^^

[13:55] Qwark Allen: was really interesting class as usual

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:55] Andret Beck: the solution is inside you

[13:55] herman Bergson: Gemma rings the bell....our time is up ^_^

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: to do what is expected in general like that i d have to be a super saiyan in rl to manage

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: but we are humans not saiyans

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: this was a wonderful lecture again!

[13:55] herman Bergson: Thank you all for this good discussion again....

[13:55] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:55] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:55] Qwark Allen: ☆*¨¨* ♥*''*BEJIITA!!! *''* ♥:*¨¨*☆

[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed