410: The Utopia of the Free Market - Keynes

From the end of the Great Depression until the early 1970s, Keynesian economics provided the main inspiration for economic policy makers in Western industrialized countries. 

The influence of Keynes (1883 - 1946)'s theories waned in the 1970s, due to stagflation, which is a situation in which the inflation rate is high and the economic growth rate slows down and unemployment remains steadily high.

It also waned because of  critiques from Milton Friedman, and Friedrich Hayek and other economists who were less optimistic about the ability of interventionist government policy to positively regulate the economy. 

From the early 1980s to 2008, the normative consensus among economists was that attempts at fiscal stimulus would be ineffective even in a recession, and the policy was rarely employed by the governments of advanced nations.  

In 2008 there was a rapid shift of opinion among prominent economists in favor of Keynesian stimulus, and from October policy makers began announcing major stimulus packages, in order to head off the possibility of a global depression. 

By early 2009 there was universal acceptance among the world's economic policy makers about the need for fiscal stimulus. 

Yet by late 2009 the consensus among economists began to break down, and in 2010 with a depression averted but unemployment in many countries still high, policy makers generally decided against any further stimulus policies.

With the end of the brief consensus for Keynesian policies, but with the neoliberal policies  still discredited, several commentators have predicted that the Macroeconomic domain will see a return to ideological struggles.  

Keynes's central theme was, that the modern capitalist economy does not automatically work at top efficiency, but can be raised to that level by the intervention and influence of the government.

It was Keynes's view that an over-reliance on maths is a mistake, because mathematical models will always depend on the validity of their underlying assumptions.

And one of these assumptions was the utopian idea, that man will always acts rationally and based on a rational awareness of his self-interest.

An other assumption was the workings of "the silent hand" as mentioned by Adam Smith, expressing the belief that the free market is self-regulating by itself eventually.

Modern mainstream macroeconomics has become closely integrated with maths, at the expense of other disciplines such as political economy and history.

Keynes put much emphasis on the role of uncertainty. Uncertainty refers to situations in which we have no statistical basis to go on.

In his opinion economics is not some kind of natural science with fixed mathematical models, 

but a moral science which has to take into account the peculiarities of human behavior. Ethics should once again have a role in guiding capitalism.

The big challenges of our future will be themes like the redistribution of wealth, the role of a government, in what sense is a free market economy not a utopia.

The Discussion

[13:18] herman Bergson: Thank you....

[13:19] herman Bergson: Little philosophy today and much economics ㋡

[13:19] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:19] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well it is a philosophy

[13:19] Mick Nerido: Can the European Union survive?

[13:19] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): makes more sense than adam smith

[13:20] herman Bergson: But  most important observation i s that in fact nobody knows how our economic system really works 

[13:20] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well it was interesting

[13:20] herman Bergson: When you read about financial markets, banks and stuff like that....

[13:20] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I've started to scroll the chat window back a bit and it saves the jumpyness

[13:21] herman Bergson: as an average citizen....you cant understand it anymore

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): so trye

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): true

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: hmm indyes

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they say one thing and then do another... the banks

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:21] herman Bergson: and most important is the role of the government in this all...

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: its a mess for sure

[13:22] herman Bergson: The neoliberalist trends are destructive with respect to social cohesion, is my opinion...

[13:22] herman Bergson: the heavy emphasis on the individual who has to take care for himself

[13:22] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): here that is not the liberal thought

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is the conservative thought

[13:23] Mick Nerido: Fear and the unknown drive the markets down it seems...

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Herman... What is the difference between a Liberal and a Neo Liberal in your terminology?

[13:23] Lizzy Pleides: it is the question to find a new definition for a new social market economy, right?

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): liberals worry about everyone

[13:23] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...in the US the word is used wrongly...

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lol

[13:23] herman Bergson: they confuse liberals with libertarians I think

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hard to relate to the others

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well in that case, me too

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): libertarians want NO governmenbt

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Not exactly the same, but closely related

[13:24] herman Bergson: liberals too....

[13:24] herman Bergson: and theo liberalisme even stronger...

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Gemma, isnt that Liberals you mean?

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But not in the UK meaning

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no liberals democrats want more govennment

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): MORE help for education

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But in Herman's sense, where Ayn Rand is regarded as liberal

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): More taxes on the wealthy

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nonnono

[13:25] herman Bergson: US meaning of the word 'liberal' is historically not correct

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): super super conservative

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i know

[13:25] herman Bergson: so confusing :-)

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but that is all it is

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well if you ask me what to do in the present situation....

[13:26] Clerisse Beeswing: If society was oneside it would be boring

[13:26] herman Bergson: I really dont know....except stop believing in the Utopia of the Free Market

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Herman... What is the difference between a Liberal and a Neo Liberal in your terminology?

[13:27] herman Bergson: make society more social....

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I am a real liberal here in the USA sense or the word

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Did I miss your answer?

[13:27] herman Bergson: liberalism originated from the theories of John Locke....and is focused on the individual and his rights....

[13:28] Mick Nerido: US Liberal Big Gov Consertive small Gov

[13:28] herman Bergson: neo liberalism (as far as I have understood) focuses more on the rights of the individual in relation to the role of the government...

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ok

[13:29] herman Bergson: You could say that it is a counter movement agains the social welfare state as it developed in the 60s of the previous century

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): where can we find that definition on the web?

[13:29] herman Bergson: It is in Wiki....

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hmmm

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok

[13:29] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wil check it later

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: individual right sound good but it seem to mean that everyone just think of them selves and do not care for anyone else

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: and that's a bad thing for sure

[13:29] herman Bergson: A good example of the neoliberal credo you find in the so called Washington Consensus of 1989

[13:30] Mick Nerido: Have to log out . Thanks Herman and all...

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: ok cu Mick

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: TC Mick

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: bye

[13:30] herman Bergson: Just look on Washington Consensus in Wikipedia...

[13:30] herman Bergson: Bye Mick

[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:30] herman Bergson: There you find a list of 10 points....

[13:31] herman Bergson: one of the points is deregulation for instance....

[13:31] herman Bergson: Less government controll

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well in UK, the Liberal party was basically the opponent of the Conservative party,

[13:32] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll introduce the godfathers of neoliberalism , Friedman and Hayek

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:32] herman Bergson: then we'll look into the difference between liberalis and neo....mor ein detail

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ah ok

[13:33] herman Bergson: After that I'll come with one or two lectures in which we can evaluate how the future has to look...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Free Market or not....government control or not and to what degree....

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: need to find a balance

[13:34] herman Bergson: And all these issues you will find in the programs of the political parties of your country...

[13:34] Clerisse Beeswing: Just sounds like a bunch of give and take

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: you cant just set it free to provocate companies like today cause then everything is just about company owners wanting more and more money without delivering anything of good quality or even at all

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Clerisse....and it is in the political debate that you can hear how much people will give and take and why

[13:35] Fred123 Aiten: someone once said "You make a living by what you get; you make a life by what you give."

[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: But in a debate people try to outbluff each other

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...that is one of the problems of today....profit and stockholders dominate the scene

[13:36] Clerisse Beeswing: I like that Fred

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes and they just want more and more without delivering, taking overprices like crazy ect

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: so only the rich can afford

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Fred.....what is a social society?

[13:37] herman Bergson: Well I read today for instance that people pay interest on loans....

[13:37] herman Bergson: In real this means that 80% of the population is paying this interest to 10% of the population....the rich

[13:37] Clerisse Beeswing: Gosh If I didn't have to chi chang in my pocket

[13:38] herman Bergson: and this widens the gap between rich and poor...

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no worries clerisse

[13:38] herman Bergson: Start reading about money....the reason why we have to pay interest....

[13:38] herman Bergson: how banks generate money....

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): My concentration limit has been reached

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:39] herman Bergson: I did this all day today.....

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): happens a lot merlin

[13:39] herman Bergson: You can start reading tomorrow Merlin :-)

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes :)

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh I followed it fine until now

[13:40] bergfrau Apfelbaum: very interesting it was! Thank you, herman, & class :-)

[13:40] herman Bergson: Thank you for your participation again.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡

409: The Utopia of the Free Market - Solidarity

The situation we are in now has deep historical roots. How could it come this far and can it be reversed? Reversed? Reversed to what? To a world without the utopia of the free market?

There is no way back. The Western world we live in is the result of a development during at least four centuries. It began with the "discovery" of the individual.

This may be traced back into the Renaissance, but it got its final form in Descartes' (1596 - 1650)  "Cogito, ergo sum". 

In political philosophy it was defined by philosophers like John Locke (1632 -1704) and Rousseau (1712 - 1778) in the form of individuals entering into a contract to form the state.

What I mean is, that we can observe an increasing importance of the individual. This growing individualism marks the end of the traditional subsistence economy and the rise of the free market. The world as a collection of transactions between individuals.

It is the basic stance of (neo)liberalism: first comes the individual with his natural rights. You can imagine that this can have a disrupting effect on the cohesion in a society: everyone for himself….

This idea isn't so modern. That society was developing in that direction was already noticed by Émile Durkheim (1858 - 1917), a aniFrench scientist and founder of the science of sociology.

- quote

"… if society lacks the unity that derives from the fact that the relationships between its parts are exactly regulated, that unity resulting from the harmonious articulation of its various functions assured by effective discipline 

and if, in addition, society lacks the unity based upon the commitment of men's wills to a common objective, then it is no more than a pile of sand that the least jolt or the slightest puff will suffice to scatter."

- end quote

Th growing free market increased the gap between the few rich and many poor. Even so worse that Disraeli, Prime minister of the UK from 1874 till1880, spoke even of "two nations".

With the concept of solidarity Durkheim placed himself between two political extremes. On the one hand you had the utopian, especially marxist and in France also anarchist revolutionaries, who were ready to establish a society, where all social differences would be equalized.

The revolutions of 1848 and the Commune of Paris in 1871 had, according to Durkheim demonstrated, that such kind of revolutionary solidarity  could easily drift into the nightmare of totalitariasm. 

At the other political end we find the freedom of individual contracts as propagated by the liberals. In their opinion it was not the task of the government to clean up social inequalities.

The social problems, which often were admitted by the liberals, had to be solved by the private initiative of charity.

Due to the increase of individualism, according to Durkheim, the traditional social cohesion creating institutions like the family or the church had disappeared in modern society. This is an observation regarding the 'modern' society of 1900!

With the complete disappearance of the subsistence economy, which was replaced by a free market economy, society had become mainly a collection of individuals.

The traditional feeling of solidarity, often expressed in reciprocity was no longer felt by the modern individual due to the increased division of labor. Everybody only was a small cog in the production process.

Social legislation and social security were the new form of solidarity in a free market economy and it is the present neoliberalism, which is breaking down this new solidarity since the 80s of the past century.

According to Durkheim the free individual can never be the starting point of a social order like Ayn Rand suggested with her extreme individualism.

The free individual is in fact the endpoint of a historical development, which culminates in the division of labor of the free market society.

The medieval solidarity of the subsistence economy is no longer an option for us, but we as individuals have to become more aware that even our personal greed is only possible in connection with the whole complex modern society.

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you... ㋡

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Herman. The pile of sand quote.... I was not sure whose quote it was... Durkheim?

[13:24] herman Bergson: The floor is yours if you have any question or remark

[13:24] Ana (anasyro): dear herman, i am not sure what your main statement is

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Durkheims

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ok ty

[13:24] Ana (anasyro): can you clarify

[13:24] herman Bergson: That is a pitty Ana

[13:24] Ana (anasyro): not a pity

[13:24] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:25] Ana (anasyro): i am asking you to clarify your encyclopedia of knowledge

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ?

[13:25] Ana (anasyro): what is the point of your lecture

[13:25] herman Bergson: The main statement is that we need a new concept of solidarity in our society instead of the individualistic greed as leading principle

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: i think people have a better education than earlier , this is lets increase individualism

[13:25] Ana (anasyro): well shoot!!!

[13:26] Ana (anasyro): tell us about that new concept

[13:26] Ana (anasyro): any idea?

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well Ana, this is part of a series

[13:26] Ana (anasyro): pfff

[13:26] Loo Zeta: Durkheim was a Functionalist, he did not accept the expoitation of the free market like Marxists

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): It will only make sense if you heard the previous ones

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: people must think about others too instead of taking what he can from everyone else without any feeling at all for them

[13:26] Loo Zeta: excuse typos

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: like it is today

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): Subsistence level may soon return due to overpopulation and resource depletion, and in fact do still exist in many parts of the world.

[13:27] herman Bergson: True Debbie

[13:27] Mick Nerido: There still are rules in the free utopia…

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I heard someone on the radio say recently that society has never been more equal than it is now

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): So, maybe solidarity will return of necessity.

[13:27] Loo Zeta: yes, the Chilian miners knew they had to share rations equitably or they died

[13:27] Loo Zeta: Really Merlin?

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): You must admit, that in the west anyway, the poor are reasonably prosperous

[13:28] herman Bergson: In some countries it is Merlin

[13:28] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): awww.. sorry.. have to leave :-(

[13:28] herman Bergson: In some

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes it was about UK only

[13:28] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): bye everyone

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: bye then Alarice

[13:28] herman Bergson: The UK is a bad example tho ...

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Alarice

[13:28] Loo Zeta: In some parts of the West I see a a division like a chasm developing in the UK

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): oh?

[13:28] herman Bergson: the difference between rich and poor has increased there

[13:29] herman Bergson: compared to other countries

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: scary development for sure

[13:29] Kime Babenco: I give you an example of solidartity: the head of the international red cross earns more than the president of the USA... Check if you like

[13:29] Loo Zeta: we are going to end up with an 'Underclass' again, or an 'undeserving poor'

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): well not compared to the third world surely?

[13:29] Ana (anasyro): i seriously don't know how these details will bring us closer to a new conception of solidarity

[13:29] herman Bergson: That is exactly the point Kim

[13:29] Ana (anasyro): this is an empirical matter

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Ana...for everyone to see

[13:30] Mick Nerido: Perhaps the solidarity will have to come after the disolution of nation states...

[13:30] herman Bergson: the queen of the netherlands gets 69.000 Euro a month...

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): omg Mick

[13:30] herman Bergson: The president of France gets 10.600 a month for instance

[13:30] Kime Babenco: So people keep on asking a bit help on any streetcross, to buy a sweet or whatever... and.. it's money not used what is was meant for

[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): When people have nothing, or have lost a lot - they tend to work together to subsist. that is a strong form of solidarity. Look at the occupy movements around the world...

[13:31] Loo Zeta agrees with Debbie

[13:31] Mick Nerido: misery loves company

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie..I agree..there is a counter movement...

[13:32] Loo Zeta: or turn to theft

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I can remember those feelings but dont see them now

[13:32] herman Bergson: People begin to see (except the bankers) that personal greed is not working eventually

[13:32] herman Bergson: there is more to a society and being member of a society than by accumulating wealth

[13:33] Loo Zeta: The union movement emerged from exploitation

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes indeed

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: much morer

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: more

13:33] herman Bergson: Yes..and the unions in the UK for instance were knocked out by Thatcher

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: can you buy love for exampple or feelings

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: no

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: love

[13:33] herman Bergson: she opened up the free market instead

[13:34] Fred123 Aiten: but you have to accumulate wealth to provide security

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): The old adage that giving is better than receiving, in social terms, is still true. To be a respected member of a community is awesome.

[13:34] Loo Zeta: Not totally, this government are trying to undermine the last bastion of socialism.... the NHS

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: you can buy sex but then its no love involved in it

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: love and such things is important things u cant buy

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and social contact in general

[13:34] Loo Zeta: Is love a social construct?

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I wish that was true Bejiita

[13:35] herman Bergson: But remember Marx's his words from the previouslecture...

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sociologists have found that women find rich men more attractive

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: if i pay someone for love me they will only love me for my money not for the person i am

[13:35] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Even if their richness is fake

[13:35] Kime Babenco: Human relations are more complex than that... We were talking about solidarity among people

[13:36] Loo Zeta: Well I so got that wrong lol

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): DOH merlin.

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): rich is the goal in the free market society

[13:36] Loo Zeta: But what does it prophet a man I he looses his soul?

[13:36] Fred123 Aiten: so are we saying that people should not save money?

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...but it shows that it is not the final goal in a society...a human society

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): If I tell a girl I don't have a car she loses interest in me

[13:37] Fred123 Aiten: All spare cash at the end of the month should be given to charity

[13:37] Loo Zeta: stupid girl

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Even someone in another continent

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: for some people Money is the most important in their lifes

[13:37] Mick Nerido: How we treat the poor and sick defines our society

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: well a buffer is good to have but if you have 50 million and yet just want more and more its greed

[13:37] herman Bergson: That is what Marx already said in 1844

[13:37] Kime Babenco: Yes...

[13:37] herman Bergson: Money makes my individuality

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: that u should share some for sure

[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I don't know why people like Richard Branson keep on working

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: i mean what would u do with 50 million really?

[13:38] Fred123 Aiten: security is the most important thing not money. But money buys security

[13:38] Kime Babenco: So it's hard to understand in the USA they don't want to hear about public health care...

[13:38] Loo Zeta: who herman?

[13:38] Loo Zeta: money doth not make the man

[13:38] Loo Zeta: just the things he has

[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: i would know it but i would not sell my soul for it

[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yeah its Manners

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But some people say Clothes too

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: indeed loo

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: its who u are as person that matters

[13:39] herman Bergson: WhenI am ugly and I have money....I can buy 20 women, so I am not ugly...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: not how much money u have

[13:39] herman Bergson: When I am lame I can buy 200 feet, so I am not lame..I am what I can pay for....

[13:39] herman Bergson: Marx

[13:39] Loo Zeta thinks Herman playing devil's advocate

[13:39] Femtasia Rexen: no he's right

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But that research I mentioned... women actually think that men who they think are rich are actuelly better looking too

[13:40] Kime Babenco: Manners are under influence of money and time

[13:40] Femtasia Rexen: i know someone who bought a very beautiful woman, she was intelligent too

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): If we all make lots of money and have a 50M buffer of cash, all around the world, we wont be any safer, because the goods will all be consumed.

[13:40] herman Bergson: Money alienates the person from his individuality...

[13:40] Mick Nerido: everyone has their price?

[13:40] Femtasia Rexen: he is fat , and old, but very clever :)

[13:40] Loo Zeta: Richness of life is found in the connections we make, some of my closest was when I was in an East End Mission caring for homeless

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Rich means better diet

[13:41] Loo Zeta: nope

[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): often more opportunity for exerice

[13:41] Loo Zeta: not always

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Loo...what you say makes sense....

[13:42] herman Bergson: Compared with the banking and financial crisis and its causes...

[13:42] Mick Nerido: what happened to the meek shall inherit the earth?

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yeah Mick, that was always wrong

[13:42] Kime Babenco: The dream is maybe super(wo)man... though the actor ended in a wheel chair

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sermon on the Mount I think

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): It was propaganda from earlier times.

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes it was Merlin

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): now it is - the meek shall watch soapies ;)

[13:43] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ty :)

[13:43] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol debbie

[13:43] Loo Zeta: I could go into theological exigesis but later?

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:43] Kime Babenco: Mayb e as rich as the ocean is deep... but stil in a wheel chair

[13:43] Mick Nerido: mabe mistranslated "The Mean shall inherit the Earth"

[13:43] Loo Zeta: exegesis sorry

[13:44] herman Bergson: Ok....

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Kime that superman thing was tragic

[13:44] herman Bergson: To get back to the main issue...:-)

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): mick - lol, sad but true.

[13:44] Ana (anasyro): I still think this discussion will lead us nowhere. It is about the contingencies of life, the bad an good sides. It is a personal matter this issue, I agree, but we do not seem capable of lifting it to a level of real theoretical debate about the assumptions of solidarity. We cannot find a real solution to the problem of lack of solidarity if we don't understand the paradoxes of social life. What I hear here are a lot of clichés and open doors kicked in. If I understand the essence of all statements I think we should discuss something like what makes social order possible. We should discuss in a more positive way the basic ingredients of social life itself. We go into details instead of looking at the structures behind it. Why not talk about the fact that, unless all the constraints, society still is a fact, coherent as it is. Why is not anyone explaining this fact? I conclude: this is just pseudophilosophy. But I doubt you will all agree with this. ;-)

[13:44] herman Bergson: Social legislation was a form a a new solidarity in the free market society...

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): aaaagggghhhh

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Not reading that!

[13:45] Kime Babenco: Right Ana

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): What was it ... 2 lines max?

[13:45] herman Bergson: Ana plz read the rules of discussion here behind me to the right...

[13:45] Ana (anasyro): that is a way to avoid a real discussion

[13:45] herman Bergson: If you have a problem...plz state it in short statements

[13:45] Kime Babenco: We lost the issue of todays class...

[13:45] Ana (anasyro): i am out of here

[13:45] Mick Nerido: thanks herman have to go

[13:45] Ana (anasyro): this is really nonsense

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hoooo

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I need another hour to read that..

[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye

[13:46] Ana (anasyro): so try it

[13:46] Mick Nerido: bye everyone

[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:46] herman Bergson: If it is nonsense Ana why did you stay???

[13:46] Kime Babenco: I like discussing however...;-)

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh well. I think this is good stuff Herman.

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...this hasn't happen only once long ago in 6 years

[13:46] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:46] Femtasia Rexen: *smilles

[13:46] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Good for a laugh

[13:46] herman Bergson: this is not a therapy group for people with social problems

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:47] herman Bergson: ok...it nicely disrupted our discussion...

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I know someone else too

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Goes to Roadside and other places

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): No names

[13:47] Kime Babenco: Don't confuse a philosphy class to psychological session...

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well...

[13:48] herman Bergson: shrugges like Atlas did

[13:48] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Is Herman stunned?

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): that put a damper on things.

[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I hope you don't have the same ideas as she had..

[13:48] herman Bergson: Sometimes we run into this kind of entertainment

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): It was fun... I love dissent

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think we are all a bit shocked.

[13:49] Femtasia Rexen: oh I think not, it was a lively discussion that is all :)

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: heheh

[13:49] Kime Babenco: Atlas bearing the world ?

[13:49] Loo Zeta: Atlas had the world on his shoulders ..... love it :D

[13:49] herman Bergson: Ayn Rand's book had the title "Atlas Shrugged"

[13:49] Femtasia Rexen: haha

[13:49] Kime Babenco: Means what ?

[13:50] herman Bergson: I still have to read the long text of this lady....

[13:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I won't

[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we learned a lot this lesson...also the way we do not act..

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: the world was shaking is litteraly the title in swedish

[13:50] Kime Babenco: Atlas live in what area ?

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: or "and the world shook"!

[13:50] Kime Babenco: An old greec not ?

[13:51] herman Bergson: Atlas was a mythological figure

[13:51] Kime Babenco: OK

[13:51] herman Bergson: always shown with the world on his shoulders

[13:51] Lizzy Pleides: I have to go off, good night everybody!

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:51] herman Bergson: I have an old clock...

[13:51] Femtasia Rexen: night Lizzy

[13:51] Loo Zeta: Good night Lizzy

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): night Lizzy:)

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): Night Liz.

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: night Lizzy

[13:51] herman Bergson: one of the decorating figures on it is Atlas

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Lizzy

[13:51] Kime Babenco: The first one who determined the Earth size was Erastothen

[13:52] Kime Babenco: Bye Lizzy!

[13:52] Kime Babenco: Earth size

[13:52] herman Bergson: Well...thank you all for you participation and endurance today ^_^

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That title never did make sense to me.. Atlas Shrugged

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed... ㋡

[13:52] Femtasia Rexen: thank you professor

[13:52] Fred123 Aiten: thanks herman

[13:52] Kime Babenco: Ok, Herman

[13:52] Kime Babenco: Thanks a lot

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Prof Herman

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman..we learned a lot again

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: well intreresting as usual

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:53] Kime Babenco: Sorry I was late ...:-(

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: cu soon

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:53] Loo Zeta: Thanks and apologize for not realizing you had started earlier

[13:53] Femtasia Rexen: and thank you everyone

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well....never a dull moment.... ^_^

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: nope ㋡

[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye everyone

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye every one:)

408: The Utopia of the Free Market - Money

-quote;

"The market economy is a tool. That way I look at it. Like a pair of scissors is a tool. Is a pair of scissors moral or immoral? A pair of scissors is instrumental. When we use the thing in the right way, it can contribute to human happiness."

- end quote

Words of the top economist Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel prize winner and advisor of Clinton and now Obama in an interview February 2010. This also applies to money as element in the market. Money is only a means to simplify the exchange of goods.

If you have a surplus of apples and want to exchange it for a quantity of milk, but you have no immediate use of the milk, it is handy to have a medium of exchange, that represents the value of the quantity of milk. Then you can  exchange it later for milk.

Tho this may be a simplified explanation of how money came in to use, it is basically correct and leads me to the main question of today: Is money still a means to simplify exchange of goods?

Or has it become , especially in our modern market societies, an independent power? I guess you are already smiling , as this is in your opinion certainly a rhetorical question. But for Karl Marx (1818 - 1883) it was a scientific discovery.

In "Atlas Shrugged" (1957) Ayn Rand makes her character Franscisco d'Anconia give an eulogy on money, when someone at the party said that money is the root of all evil.

-quote

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Anconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them." (p. 380)

"(…) money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires."(p. 381)

Here Rand comes into a head-on collision with Marx. She has read Marx's early text on "The Power of Money" (1844). She even copies part of his texts into the eulogy on money after editing it to fit her purpose.

Marx quotes Shakespeare:

“Gold? Yellow, glittering, precious gold? 

No, Gods, I am no idle votarist! ...

Thus much of this will make black white, foul fair,

Wrong right, base noble, old young, coward valiant.

(…) 

This yellow slave

Will knit and break religions, bless the accursed;

Make the hoar leprosy adored, place thieves

And give them title, knee and approbation

With senators on the bench: This is it

That makes the wappen’d widow wed again;"

As Marx concludes…money is not just an innocent tool.

-quote

"That which is for me through the medium of money – that for which I can pay (i.e., which money can buy) – that am I myself, the possessor of the money. The extent of the power of money is the extent of my power. 

Money’s properties are my – the possessor’s – properties and essential powers. Thus, what I am and am capable of is by no means determined by my individuality. I am ugly, but I can buy for myself the most beautifulof women. 

Therefore I am not ugly, for the effect of ugliness – its deterrent power – is nullified by money. I, according to my individual characteristics, am lame, but money furnishes me with twenty-four feet. 

Therefore I am not lame. I am bad, dishonest, unscrupulous, stupid; but money is honoured, and hence its possessor. Money is the supreme good, therefore its possessor is good."

- end quote

Quintessential are his words :"Thus, what I am and am capable of is by no means determined by my individuality." Money is not a means, money is power and in fact alienates us from our humanity.

-quote

"Money, then, appears as this distorting power both against the individual and against the bonds of society, etc., which claim to be entities in themselves. It transforms fidelity into infidelity, love into hate, hate into love, virtue into vice, vice into virtue, servant into master, master into servant, idiocy into intelligence, and intelligence into idiocy."

- end quote

What Marx says is what I said in my previous lecture; our individuality is not defined by self-interest,  like Ayn Rand wants us to believe. We are also driven by other values in life. Like Marx says:

- quote

"Assume man to be man and his relationship to the world to be a human one: then you can exchange love only for love, trust for trust, etc. 

If you want to enjoy art, you must be an artistically cultivated person; if you want to exercise influence over other people, you must be a person with a stimulating and encouraging effect on other people. 

Every one of your relations to man and to nature must be a specific expression,corresponding to the object of your will, of your real individual life."

- end quote

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you.....

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): more!!!!

[13:23] herman Bergson: But I just picked up a really special quote....

[13:23] herman Bergson: You should hear that one...

[13:24] herman Bergson: It is Fransisco with his eulogy on money....and so super Randian........

[13:24] herman Bergson: But I think it completes the picture....

[13:24] herman Bergson: I'll give it to you in full..

[13:24] herman Bergson: "If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would ?

choose—because it contains all

the others—the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money.’ No other

language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static

quantity—to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the ?

first

to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human

morality." (p. 384)

[13:25] herman Bergson: Just that statement :"The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human

morality."

[13:25] Debbie Dee (framdor): well i never....

[13:25] Femtasia Rexen: saving that one for later

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): making money (printing it) holds the essence of morality? How wierd

[13:26] herman Bergson: But there is no American among us today if I am not mistaken :-)

[13:26] Femtasia Rexen: there will be later

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes debbie....that is the essence of today....

[13:26] Femtasia Rexen: cant wait to share that one with him

[13:27] herman Bergson: and the idea that we are NOT only driven by self-interest or greed

[13:27] herman Bergson: That we also have other values which define our humanity

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): The effect of money is much wider than "value" of goods and services

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: moneey is not everything

[13:27] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): isn't that illusive? not driven by greed?

[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes...money is power....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: as i said before, can you set a price on love or even a life?

[13:28] herman Bergson: Hedgefunds can dsrupt the economy of a country...

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): and youth, and beauty, as we see from Shakespeare

[13:28] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): money is not everything if you have enough :-) makes ?

you sleep better

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: money isnt everything there is so much more

[13:28] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example....

[13:28] herman Bergson: Europe....in crisis with its euro

[13:28] herman Bergson: There is talk of issuing Euro-bonds....

[13:29] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): yes... listening to a discussion in tv right now

[13:29] herman Bergson: it means that the collective debt of all euro countries is put in one ?

bag....

[13:29] herman Bergson: The new French president says...let's do it....

[13:29] herman Bergson: The German prime minister says..over my dead body....

[13:30] herman Bergson: now here comes the catch....

[13:30] herman Bergson: what is the effect of issuing Euro bonds...

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): more debt

[13:30] herman Bergson: it means that all euro countries can lend money from the financial market ?

for 3.5% interest...

[13:30] herman Bergson: at this moment...

[13:31] herman Bergson: Germany gets its money almost for free…. 0.61%

[13:31] herman Bergson: the Netherlands too 1.8%

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): italy for over 6% i think

[13:31] herman Bergson: but Spain and Italy...6.8% or more...

[13:31] herman Bergson: there you see....

[13:32] herman Bergson: The French say…let's put solidarity first in Europe

[13:32] herman Bergson: Germany and the Netherlands say...let's put our individual interest first..

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how much is France paying now?

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: you can't always reward those who have a bad economy

[13:32] herman Bergson: Well Beertje...that is a bit tricky indeed....lol

[13:33] herman Bergson: The French aren't isn such a good position either....

[13:33] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): I'm not sure that is the point.. the germans don't ?

want to pay when the other don't make any efforts to reform their ill economy

[13:33] herman Bergson: but that is not the point...

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes Alarice....true....

[13:33] herman Bergson: We have to pay for the bad behavior of Greece,Italy and Spain and only may ?

hope they will improve their behavior

[13:34] Fred123 Aiten: Herman, could I ask what might seem a stupid question.? What was the purpose ?

of setting up the Euro in the first place?

[13:34] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): It is easy to be generous with someone else's money

[13:34] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): well... in that case hope is just not enough

[13:34] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): it 's obvious that the greek aren't willing

[13:34] herman Bergson: lol Good question Fred....

[13:34] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): should be easy to get the taxes.....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: europe thought they could do as USA and create a similar system like they do ?

with the dollar

[13:35] herman Bergson: What I understand of it , it removed the fluctuations of national valuta ...

[13:35] herman Bergson: or what do you cal l it...

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: but USA is one country with same culture all over European countries have way ?

dofferent cultures

[13:35] herman Bergson: Ilack the economic vocabulary....

[13:35] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): yes... think the idea wasn't too bad - counter part ?

to the states.. more independence from the us dollar

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: a common currency can thus mean trouble and indeed

[13:36] herman Bergson: I guess the idea was federalist  and emulating the US dollar

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:36] Fred123 Aiten: fluctuations in a country's currency help it recover from recession

[13:36] herman Bergson: But let me give you an other example which illustrates the idea that we do ?

not live only for money....

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There was the ERM

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: european countries are much more individual and independent then USAs states

[13:37] Fred123 Aiten: unless all countries are at the same point in the economic curve it will ?

never work

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: thats why a common currency in europe will spell trouble i think

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: cause all countries think different

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Britain was in the ERM but not the euro

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: no common system

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sorry I have to go

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: TC Beertje

[13:37] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Beertje

[13:37] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: cu beertje

[13:37] herman Bergson: Yes Bekiita....that is the whole point....all countries think ?

different....that is...are driven still by self-interest

[13:37] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): bye Beertje

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): bye

[13:38] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Goodbye Beertje

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: yes plus as i say way different cultures compared to the starts in the US

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: states

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: wich are more similar

[13:39] herman Bergson: Maybe yes Bejiita...

[13:39] herman Bergson: But to give you some hope for the future....

[13:39] Fred123 Aiten: what Greece needs now is a reduction in their exchange rate that will ?

increase exports and decrease imports. But with the Euro they cannot do this

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): I miss the point of it all. the free market world is indebted to china ?

and the third worlds. the economy slows down - so more money is borrowed (via bonds) to get out of ?

debt?

[13:40] herman Bergson: Some farmer who produces a very special wine...expensive....was asked why ?

not produce more....

[13:40] herman Bergson: that would bring more money...

[13:40] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): oh they can... if they just lower their wages and all ?

that!

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: a prob with greece i took up before also is that they lack all kind of ?

industry besides tourism and selling some foods

[13:40] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): Can you believe how much they raised their salaries ?

and their prices since they are having the euro?

[13:40] herman Bergson: He said no.....because it wont bring a better wine.....only worse

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: i hope greece will go out of the €, to be honest

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: no cars or machine or general product manufacture at all

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: that can power the greek economy

[13:41] herman Bergson: There is another solution Lizzy....

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: ..and which?

[13:41] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): lower down their salaries and their prices.... in ?

comparison with german for example

[13:42] herman Bergson: Greece has to pay very thing in euros to the other countries in Europe, but ?

cna introduce the Drachme for only internal use...

[13:42] Femtasia Rexen: hmmm

[13:42] herman Bergson: I read that in my newspaper this morning

[13:42] herman Bergson: I wonder who understands this all anymore?!

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: its a mess indeed

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): well, clearly not the economists.

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: make my head spin

[13:43] herman Bergson: But at least I guess Marx was right....

[13:43] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I would be surprised if that would work Herman

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: do you think they will be honest from now to tomorrow? what about the ?

subventions they got for nothing?

[13:43] herman Bergson: Money is way beyond being just a tool to simplify the exchange of goods....

[13:43] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): Jeffrey Sachs, maybe?

[13:44] herman Bergson: Money is pure politics....

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: and power

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: and its used in the wrong way

[13:44] herman Bergson: And in that sense I think that capitalism has lost its ....well everything ?

:-)

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): Why are there so many expensive first world weapons in every poor ?

african trouble spot?

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): who pays?

[13:45] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): but are there really?

[13:45] Qwark Allen: the starving population

[13:45] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): aren't they all just $15/ piece as replicas from ?

China?

[13:45] herman Bergson: Rich countries like China and others are buying Africa at the moment....

[13:46] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): Hey Qwark :-)

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): nope. they are from america, uk and europe. I live in south africa

[13:46] Qwark Allen: ? ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•   Helloooooo!  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜   ?

[13:46] Qwark Allen: Hey!

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: big companies come there take the resources for themselves while murdering ?

the locals

[13:46] herman Bergson: They buy all fertile areas in african countries....

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: really terrible

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....

[13:46] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): yes but who was that russian just convicted for arms ?

trafficking, by the american prosecutors?

[13:47] herman Bergson: Just because the economy must grow....share holders must be paid

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): so - who is in debt to who, and whose economic policies stink? Greece ?

is minor....

[13:47] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): i don't believe that the economy always have to ?

grow....

[13:47] herman Bergson: Tax evasion in Greece is legendary...

[13:48] Qwark Allen: i remember years ago, oil had a rise of prices cause of a nigerian internal ?

problem

[13:48] herman Bergson: corrution in healthcare too....you always need to bring an extra envelop

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): Growth at any cost is the current plan - and it is insanity.

[13:48] Qwark Allen: everything nowadays is related

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes they just sant MORE MORE MOOOOOOREEE!

[13:48] Fred123 Aiten: surely as the population is growing then the economy must grow or we will all ?

be worse off.

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: for infinity

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: totally crazy

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: want

[13:48] herman Bergson: Well fred that is one option....

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Fred, we are worse off. except for a very small minority of very rich ?

people

[13:49] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): isn't it really all just anthropology, Herman?

[13:49] herman Bergson: but when all wealth is in the hands of a few then redistribution of wealth is ?

also a good option...without the need to grow

[13:49] Fred123 Aiten: I agree the wealth should be spread more fairly

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:49] Fred123 Aiten: but I still think we have to grow

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: but the rich ones want to keep all for themselves

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: not sharing

[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita....a weird phenomenon...

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: even they have 100s billon of dollars at one person sometimes

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): growth = more consumption - in a resource constrained environment.

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: what to do with so much money?

[13:50] Femtasia Rexen: who says life has to be fair

[13:50] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): it's not fair

[13:50] herman Bergson: UNless you have so much that you really don't know what to do with it except ?

giving it away...like Bill Gates with his charity organizations

[13:51] Fred123 Aiten: but if the population is growing then total consumption will have to grow

[13:51] Fred123 Aiten: we need more food for all the additional people

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): Human values - morality - suggest we should be fair to each other

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Debbie

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie......

[13:51] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): only within our own tribe, though

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That saying about 'live is not fair' raises alarm bells to me

[13:51] Femtasia Rexen: our values and morality are being eroded but that is another topic

[13:51] herman Bergson: and still cherishth ebelief that we are not only driven by self-interest...

[13:52] herman Bergson: and that this basic idea of the free market is a utopia

[13:52] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): yeah tell that to Alan Greenspan

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): nothing utopian about it at all!

[13:52] herman Bergson: Wel...I think you are ready now for the revolution...:-)

[13:52] Femtasia Rexen: haha

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hahaha

[13:52] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): lol

[13:52] herman Bergson: SO, tahnk you for your participation again....

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hahaha yes lets start NOW!

[13:52] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): why, the last few just made things worse

[13:53] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): far worse

[13:53] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): It might start here

[13:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): yay herman - lead us to fairness

[13:53] herman Bergson: Class dismissed.... ^_^

[13:53] Femtasia Rexen: thank you so much for a through provoking lesson

[13:53] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): thanks Herman :-)

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Professor

[13:53] Femtasia Rexen: oops thought

[13:53] Fred123 Aiten: many thanks Herman

[13:53] herman Bergson: Well Debbie ...I hope to come up with at least some answers to that

[13:53] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): very good lecture

[13:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): great Herman , tyvm ;)

[13:53] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.?´ ¯¨?.¸¸`?**  **?´ ¸¸.?¨¯`? H E R MA N ?´ ¯¨?.¸¸`?**   **?´ ¸¸.?¨¯`

[13:53] Qwark Allen: ty

[13:54] herman Bergson: Nice to see you Qwark...

[13:54] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): hope to make it next tuesday again :-)

[13:54] Qwark Allen: glad i come in the end

[13:54] Qwark Allen: :-)))

[13:54] herman Bergson: Didnt see you come in..sorry

[13:54] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): bye everyone :-))

[13:54] Qwark Allen: its ok, i was very silent

[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye everyone

[13:54] Qwark Allen: :-)))

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: cu soon all

[13:54] Femtasia Rexen: thank you everyone, see you next week

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: nice as always

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ?

[13:56] Debbie Dee (framdor): hey fred, it can't keep expanding

[13:57] Fred123 Aiten: I agree but unless the population stops expanding then it has to

[13:57] Fred123 Aiten: or else many people will die

[13:57] Debbie Dee (framdor): The population is already starting to show signs of dying off.

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: it was interesting again Herman

[13:58] herman Bergson: yes.....preparing for the lecture is too....

[13:59] Debbie Dee (framdor): Fred, I agree. but the whole system is hitting a wall.