Since the early days of homo sapiens we find examples of culture. The Oxford Dictionaries define the concept like this:
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“The arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively” and
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“The ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society”
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Take music. All humans create it. We have serious debates about the concept of “beauty”
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and what makes something a work of Art. The artists are sometimes adored as idols.
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This is how our brain works, but you could ask the question “Why do we do that?” I have only one explanation: our brain is a stimuli addict.
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When you deprive the brain and central nervous system of stimuli, we go crazy. If you offer constantly the same stimuli we get bored and eventually crazy again.
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This might be an explanation why the organism, called homo sapiens, creates culture. And one of his creations is religion.
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However, the arts and religion are not treated in the same way. We sometimes have the feeling that an artist seems to be in touch with a transcendental something called Beauty, which he brings back to earth level.
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The priest and imams appear to have a similar role in the cultural phenomenon, called religion. They bring god to earth level.
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Here the philosophical issues start. We love to talk about beauty, but in fact, when we see a beautiful painting,
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what we say is that beauty is a property of this painting and we try to define this property. But in case of religion we get a completely different debate.
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Religion claims the existence of something, it calls god. Like we are easily inclined to imagine that it is Beauty, that touches the painting or the music,
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likewise we seem to be inclined to believe that we are “touched”, “guided” by this god. When you look at the figures behind me, they show that a lot of people believe this.
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Does beauty exist? Oh yes! Of course we may seriously disagree whether compositions of Stockhausen are beautiful or not, but we we all believe it exists.
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Does god exist? I am sorry, the believers say, that is not debatable. He (She/It) exists. I can listen to music and experience beauty. It just happens.
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But what should I do to have a similar experience regarding this god idea. I guess one answer would be…just look at the beauty of nature. Someone MUST have created it.
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And here we enter the fist battle zone: necessity. It is commonly accepted that there are two sorts of existent entities: those that exist but could have failed to exist,
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and those that could not have failed to exist. Entities of the first sort are contingent beings; entities of the second sort are necessary beings.
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There are various entities which, if they exist, would be candidates for necessary beings: God, propositions, relations, properties, states of affairs, possible worlds, and numbers, among others.
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Note that the first entity in this list is a concrete entity, while the rest are abstract entities.
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Many interesting philosophical questions arise when one inquires about necessary beings: What makes it the case that they exist necessarily? Is there a grounding for their necessary existence?
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To say that this god is just a coincidence…no way! It would make the whole universe just a coincidence and it seems that this observation destroys the meaning of life.
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So he has to be necessary and without a beginning or end. Don’t ask me what this means. It is our brain that invents these ideas.
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Not mine, but other people’s brains and they are even willing to murder for it…….
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Thank you for your attention…the floor is yours..^_^
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The Discussion
Max Chatnoir: So why is God concrete and not abstract?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no one says that
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i don’t think
Bejiita Imako: because he is describes as a being of some sort i guess
herman Bergson: no no....god can not be abstract like a number is abstract
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but not concrete
Bejiita Imako: or a property
herman Bergson: if that were so he would be only a product of our brain
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Mmmm a deity can be abstract, or a collection of ideas that form a religion
herman Bergson: That idea of god as a property is interesting Bejiita....
Loo Zeta-Ah mumbles something about Spinoza
Max Chatnoir: or contingent?
herman Bergson: Spinoza thought about it in that way
Bejiita Imako: hmm might be
Bejiita Imako: ok
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): lol
herman Bergson: you are right Loo :-))
Barby Seda: the existence of god is based on faith and believe
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Did we say Spinoza simultaneously?
Bejiita Imako: interesting concept indeed
herman Bergson: But what does this property add to reality....
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Sorry have him up to the ear balls, my son is writing him for a thesis
herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll discuss 'existence'
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): spinoza??
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): yep
Bejiita Imako: ok
herman Bergson: and the question...is existence a property...
Max Chatnoir: That will be interesting, especially here!
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): mmm metaphysical or virtual or projected identity of self?
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): the question is, what is existence?
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it always was
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ;-)
herman Bergson: indeed Daruma....
Max Chatnoir: To be or not to be, that is the question.
herman Bergson: what do I say more in the tomato is red.....and
herman Bergson: the tomato is red and exists
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Not after it is eaten
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): there are other colors of tomatoes
herman Bergson: Teh tomato willl still be red Loo
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): It then becomes us
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): where does it exist? when I read also science magacines I get totally confused about where I am - what I am - and why I am.
Bejiita Imako: the tomato is concrete and an object, red is abstract and a property that is linked to the concrete tomato
Bejiita Imako: to make it look red
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): perhaps I am a tomato...
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Yuck very indigestable concrete tomatoes
Bejiita Imako: taste is another property
Max Chatnoir: If you take away all of the properties, don't you take a way the tomato?
Bejiita Imako: hahaha concrete as in an object
Bejiita Imako: not building material
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): 。◕‿÷ 。
Bejiita Imako: ㋡
herman Bergson: The point is that 'red' IS a property of the tomato....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we are ripping at the next topic
herman Bergson: but what is 'exist'?
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): so sorry
Bejiita Imako: but without the tomato the property would not exixt
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ja herman. Things can exist in many ways
herman Bergson: indeed Bejiita
Max Chatnoir: Ah, so the redness is contingent on the tomato.
Bejiita Imako: ah
Max Chatnoir: at least the tomato's redness.
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): Virtual, physical, only in our minds....
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): It was once green
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): soem are yellow too
Bejiita Imako: yes
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): yep
Bejiita Imako: and both ate still tomatoes
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does god have a color?
Bejiita Imako: are
bergfrau Apfelbaum: i think that one of God, or something else, believe because it helps if we have troubles.... it can help a glass of wine... or good sex, or any god in our head
bergfrau Apfelbaum: i think did one of God, or something else, believe: because it helps if we have troubles .... it can help a glass of wine ... or good sex, or any god in our head
bergfrau Apfelbaum: ☆*¨¨**''* Cheers *''**¨¨*☆
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): spirit don’t usually have color
Barby Seda: the tomato derives from seeds
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): god must have any colour cos he is a believe of nearly anyone in the world.
herman Bergson: That is the big problem Beertje...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no color
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Mmm spirit can be coloured
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): And I mean in this way god as a word for any believe
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah so there is belief in spirits
herman Bergson: Is it an object that can have properties...
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): <---- alternative="" going="" here="" p="">
Bejiita Imako: yes but the spirit itself is always colorless
Bejiita Imako: the ethanol itself
herman Bergson: the theologians believe so....
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): ok bejita
Bejiita Imako: the color come from other substances mixed with it
herman Bergson: he is benevolent, omnipotent eternal and so on...
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Reflection of something on it?
Barby Seda: the colors and other attributes derive from the seeds
herman Bergson: only existing entities can have properties
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Or 'She'
Bejiita Imako: true
herman Bergson: Yes Loo....another problem..HE She or It
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): why would sex be involved
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but when he or she has a color then god must exist
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): at all
herman Bergson: but what sense does it make for a god in the Judaic tradition to be a he or a she...?
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Exactly... God 'IS'
herman Bergson: If he is a he...can he have a wife too?
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): no sexual identity
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe he has:)))
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Well is there sex in heaven?
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i hope so Loo:))))
herman Bergson: would be heavenly sex :-))
Bejiita Imako: indeed
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): overpopulation could be a problem in eternity
Bejiita Imako: good sex is nice thats true
herman Bergson: But I don’t need god for that Bejiita ^_^
herman Bergson: only a goddess :-)))
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): lol
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡
Bejiita Imako: no but i guess its all about getting stimuli of some sort weather ses or believe in god even they are totally different
Bejiita Imako: the brain chases stimuli
herman Bergson: To get back to the issue here....
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Unless you are a Buddhist and you seek nothingness
herman Bergson: I really do not understand why people conclude that god necessarily has to exist...
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): me neither
bergfrau Apfelbaum: -II-
herman Bergson: That is whatI love about buhddism...it is totally uninterested in any god at all
Bejiita Imako: its mind boggling indeed especially for me who don’t believe in any god
Bejiita Imako: want some proof first
Bejiita Imako: before i believe
herman Bergson: yes Bejiita....I understand
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): a long story, but the christians needed something to keep the people small.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and those who do believe cannot imagine why those who dont .. dont
Bejiita Imako: true
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I asked God for proof once...... ermm that is another story some other time
Bejiita Imako: heheh
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): but thats another< story
herman Bergson: that is the point Gemma...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): So in asking God for proof, I was acknowledging existence
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): looks at bangladesh in amazement
Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): less than 1% don t believe
Bejiita Imako: almost all believe in god
herman Bergson: But I still do not understand where this idea of a supernatural being comes from...unless it is a by product of our mental development since childhood
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Otherwise I would be talking to .....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I think it has to do with control
Bejiita Imako: thats the only logical thing, people who have not stopped believing in santa claus already somewhat
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): That we cannot control we put down to another being in control
herman Bergson: oh yes Loo....the god idea has been used to control whole nations....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): stil is
herman Bergson: look at IS!
Bejiita Imako: nowadays seems mostly a means to control and opress people
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think we need someone to blame for disasters
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and to blame god is easy
Bejiita Imako: religion = power = bad thing
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta) nods
Bejiita Imako: bad combination
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Not always it is how it is managed
Barby Seda: However, look at Deistic beliefs
herman Bergson: No Beeertje.....for that is really the big question....
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Islam = peace
herman Bergson: Take an earthquake...
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Christian philosophy is peace
herman Bergson: if god did that he is the biggest asshole ever
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): yep
herman Bergson: so...here we have the problem of evil in this world....
Bejiita Imako: religion might be a good thing as start bt then the big leaders manipulate it just to gain control
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): take IS..who is the god that say shop the heads off?
Bejiita Imako: brainwashing
Bejiita Imako: for evil purposes
Bejiita Imako: thats whats happening now with is
Bejiita Imako: ans boko haram
Bejiita Imako: and
Barby Seda: Christians also killed people
herman Bergson: Well...one remark...a bit off topic....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is a huge distortion of the writings in the Koran
Bejiita Imako: true, but that was in the mid ages, but these guys STILL live in the mid ages even its 2015
Max Chatnoir: Sorry, I had to answer the door!
Bejiita Imako: sort of
herman Bergson: Why do we NEVER hear or read in the news who is supplying this IS movement....????
Max Chatnoir: and then chase the dog. Reading the chat...
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly because they are NOT educated
Bejiita Imako: true
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Ermmm they are often
Bejiita Imako: ok
Bejiita Imako: hmm
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): The person whom lived where i was born in Leeds and blew up the underground was a teacher
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): 07/07
herman Bergson: there are two Qurans....
Bejiita Imako: ee ok
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): They recruit disaffected individuals frustrated with their lot
Max Chatnoir: REally, two?
Barby Seda: just like there are 2 Christian Bibles
Bejiita Imako: ah
Max Chatnoir: Two bibles or two translations?
herman Bergson: one written in the period 612 -622....which is like christian evangelium...and one written in the period 622 -632
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or romantic enough to want to be in in a movement
herman Bergson: which is writtten by the Warrior Mohammed
Barby Seda: one who people choose to read, and the other which is ignored
Bejiita Imako: aaa now i get what u mean
Bejiita Imako: by 2 bibles, old and new testament
herman Bergson: so one half is human and mild...the second half is barbaric like IS
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): and like the dead sea scrolls called gnostic texts
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and the other gospels also
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not included in the bible
Bejiita Imako: aa
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): I have been called a cyber gnostic by a well known theologian.... bring it on!!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
Bejiita Imako: hhaahaha
Bejiita Imako: ㋡
herman Bergson: wow...cyber gnostic....
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): interesting
herman Bergson: what in the world might that be? :-)
Bejiita Imako: no ides
Bejiita Imako: hehe
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Well it was NT Wright at a digital symposium in Durham Uni
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): he is stuck on gnosticism
Bejiita Imako: is that like Necronomicon?
Max Chatnoir: So which one is more commonly used? Or were they combined?
Bejiita Imako: Chtullu and similar
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): and well thinks because I meet with people on line.. in preference ot local church
herman Bergson: I wonder what I should call myself....
herman Bergson: I see religion as a cultural product like music and art....
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): The interaction was shared on youtube, if anybody interested I will share the link
Bejiita Imako: ok
herman Bergson: you mean your birth as cyber gnostic Loo? :-)
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): Religion is a good tool to keep people under control.
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): of course so is the military
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): It contains fear, hopes and the believe of healing
herman Bergson: Yes it is, Daruma...but that applies to any ideology...communism was too
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): true
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): religion makes no different^^^
Ciska Riverstone: economic systems as well
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): sorry
Barby Seda: or applied to capitalism
herman Bergson: VERY TRUE, Ciska!
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): its not more holy than other tools
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Bejiita Imako: i guess so
Ciska Riverstone: not less either ;)
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): u must know the target group
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): thats all
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): others work for money
herman Bergson: well...I think....enough to think about for two days again :-))
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): other work for "holiness"
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): but in the end its money
herman Bergson: SO....thank you all again for your participation :-))
Bejiita Imako: ㋡
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): dank je well herman
herman Bergson whispers: Time to cool down our brains agian :-)
Bejiita Imako: nice Herman
.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman, enough to think about again:)
Loo Zeta-Ah (loo.zeta): Thanks
Bejiita Imako: hehe indeed
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes
Daruma Hermine Boa (daruma): / me claps
Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): as usual
herman Bergson: Class dismissed .....^_^
Bejiita Imako: cu thursday
Bejiita Imako: ㋡
