A 17 years old boy suffers of leukemia and needs a blood transfusion. If he does not get it, he'll die within a week.
But the boy decides to refuse the transfusion, because his religious believes forbid such a kind of medical action on the body.
The doctors, however, believe, that the boy does not know what he really wants,
because he is seriously influenced by his parents and their religious community.
Because the boy is a minor, the question is: if the blood transfusion is administered under duress, does this conflict with the boy's autonomy or not?
If you want to preserve the authenticity of your Self, at least you may begin by claiming personal, bodily autonomy.
When a group wants to govern itself or a person wants to make independent decisions, they are looking for autonomy.
Autonomy comes from the Greek roots auto meaning "self" and nomos meaning "custom" or "law."
This reflects the political sense of the word: a group's right to self-government or self-rule.
When a person seeks autonomy, he or she would like to be able to make decisions independently from an authority figure.
This autonomy issue happens to be in the spotlights in the Netherlands at the moment.. The parliament is is about to vote about a new law on donating organs.
The focus of the debate is about the question: can the government say "everyone is organ donor by law
UNLESS you explicitly have stated, that you never wish to donate organs after your death".
An autonomous a person wants to make independent decisions. But what does that mean?
Is administering under duress a violation of the autonomy of the boy, because it ignores his personal wishes?
Or is it, on the contrary, a token of respect for his autonomy, because he is too much influenced regarding his choice by his parents and church?
Who owns my body? Me for 100% or is there someone else, who can claim it to some extend?
Our focus will be the relation between personal autonomy and the government. To what extend should the government protect personal autonomy?
Or should the government actively interfere and influence or even restrict our autonomy?
Just think about all campaigns and laws against smoking, or the next target....people with obesity?
Am I the one and only owner of my body and absolutely independent regarding decisions I make about how I want to use it?
We'll not answer this question here with a simple yes or no, for as you all know, this is a real philosophical and also ethical matter.
Therefor let's take our time and spend some more lectures on this subject.
Thank you for your attention again...^_^
The Discussion
[13:27] herman Bergson: I am sorry our class was disrupted somewhat....
[13:27] CB Axel: Well, here in the US, the boy's wishes are irrelevant, since he's only 17. In one more year he'd have more rights.
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: thank you - no worries
[13:27] herman Bergson: second time in ten years though :-)
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): use to be calm indeed here
[13:27] CB Axel: That's a pretty good record!
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡
[13:27] herman Bergson: You mean his religious believes would be ignored CB?
[13:28] CB Axel: No. His parents would make the decision.
[13:28] herman Bergson: ok...
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: thats here too
[13:29] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): No one is prohibited to smoke, they are only discouraged. The government in this case should act. And that would save the religious principles too, because he didn't not choose to sin. someone else did take the sinful decision, so to speak
[13:29] CB Axel: I would like to think that his parents would ask him what he wants.
[13:30] CB Axel: Then his parents would have to decide whether to be good parents or good what-ever-their-religion is person.
[13:30] herman Bergson: That would be rather problematic CB
[13:30] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): For the parents he is risking eternal life to safe mortal life
[13:31] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): The same principles animated the Saint Inquisition
[13:31] CB Axel: That's right, John.
[13:31] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): they used to destroy bodies in order to save souls
[13:31] herman Bergson: It is only about prolonging life...his disease is lethal eventually
[13:32] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): in their fanaticism they were sure to be saving people's ethernal life by sacrificing the mortal human body
[13:33] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): In my opinion the State should surely intervene
[13:33] CB Axel: Yes, but in the case of the inquisition, the person wasn't given a choice.
[13:33] Ciska Riverstone: if things are not curable yet - no
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: people here can decide when they have an illness that will terminate life
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: if they go on with treatments to get another month out of it
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: or not
[13:34] CB Axel: Well, there's a difference between treatment used to prolong life and treatment used to make the remainder of life bearable.
[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes...you can refuse medical care here too
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: and thats important
[13:34] Ciska Riverstone: otherwise the state will push u to accept treatment
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: which may hold you in hospital
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: while you could have some more days out there
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: even when the time is shorter
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: and enjoy things
[13:35] CB Axel: I just went to a meeting last week to discuss physician assisted suicide for the terminally ill.
[13:35] herman Bergson: Important issue Ciska
[13:36] CB Axel: That's only legal in a handful of states.
[13:36] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands it is allowed
[13:36] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): the discussion here is not in voice
[13:36] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): can you write, please?
[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: I'm strictly against the state possessing my body.
[13:36] CB Axel: Yes. The Netherlands was mentioned at the meeting. °͜°
[13:37] herman Bergson: It is a very carefully managed process....
[13:37] herman Bergson: with lots of controls and checks
[13:37] herman Bergson: When I was on Schiermonnikoog last week it happened there....
[13:38] herman Bergson: A woman, 102 years old.....
[13:38] herman Bergson: She was eventually put to sleep.....she slept for 8 days on medication before the heart stopped
[13:38] herman Bergson: This is what she wished...
[13:39] bergfrau Apfelbaum: wow good!
[13:39] CB Axel: The law we're looking at in our state would require the medication to be self-administered.
[13:39] herman Bergson: She was almost deaf and blind
[13:40] herman Bergson: Here it was the physician who did administer the medication
[13:40] CB Axel: A doctor would provide the medication, but the patient would have to be able to take it on his/her own.
[13:40] Ladyy Haven (ladyy.haven) is online.
[13:40] herman Bergson: And what when the patient is totally paralyzed CB?
[13:40] herman Bergson: only able to speak?
[13:41] CB Axel: And if the doctor wouldn't be forced to provide the drug if religion prohibited it.
[13:41] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): He would be attached to a machine and have to push a botton
[13:41] CB Axel: I'm not sure if that would be allowed, John.
[13:41] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder
[13:42] CB Axel: I'd have to look at the law in Oregon which is the law ours would be based on.
[13:42] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): I mean in some parts of Europe
[13:42] herman Bergson: Here it isn't allowed if a relative would help the patient.....that would be a crime
[13:42] CB Axel: Murder is murder, but euthanasia is relief, imo. °͜°
[13:42] Ducky (taurdagfarason): some people lack compassion
[13:42] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): They would have to do it themselves by simply pushing a botton
[13:42] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder, no matter how you call it, murder is murder
[13:43] CB Axel: But under the law we're considering, this would not be euthanasia. It would be considered suicide.
[13:43] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): What is it like in Putinland, Ducky?
[13:43] herman Bergson: I understand Ducky....it is like Ducky is Ducky.....a tautology
[13:43] herman Bergson: The question is...is self chosen death murder here
[13:43] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): tell us about the law in your country, pls
[13:44] Ducky (taurdagfarason): if you look on the surface and ignore the fact that labeling murder by different names doesn't make it less of a murder
[13:44] Ducky (taurdagfarason): In my country, Murder is illegal
[13:44] herman Bergson: This law says that when there is evidence of unbearable suffering euthanasia is allowed
[13:44] CB Axel: Then I hope you never get a painful, debilitating condition that you have to live with for months if not years.
[13:45] CB Axel: And our law would not be murder.
[13:45] CB Axel: It would be suicide.
[13:45] herman Bergson: I agree CB...hope it wont happen to Ducky
[13:45] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder
[13:45] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): and suicide is suicide Ducky?
[13:45] Ducky (taurdagfarason): some people have no respect for human life
[13:45] CB Axel: So you're saying that suicide is murder?
[13:46] herman Bergson: yes Ducky...red is red and green is green
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very complex this indeed
[13:46] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): this could be seen as suicide, not murder
[13:46] ellenilli (ellenilli.lavendel) is online.
[13:46] herman Bergson: That is a matter of definition CB....
[13:46] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): assisted suicide they call it
[13:46] CB Axel: It's my body. Why should you say what I do with it?
[13:46] Ducky (taurdagfarason): some people have no compassion for others nor human life
[13:46] herman Bergson: assisted suicide is not allowed in the Netherlands
[13:46] CB Axel: Keeping a suffering person alive for no reason is not compassionate.
[13:47] herman Bergson: that is considered to be a crime
[13:47] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder, no matter what you call it
[13:47] Ducky (taurdagfarason): Why do people with lax morals want to justify murder
[13:47] herman Bergson: But if it is clear that death is the only next stop and endless suffering the road to it, it is allowed to shorten that road for the patient
[13:47] Ducky (taurdagfarason): next thing you'll be telling me that abortion is not a murder
[13:48] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): out of topic
[13:48] CB Axel: Because to me allowing a terminally ill person to check out early is more moral than forcing them to suffer.
[13:48] CB Axel: And abortion is not murder since life begins at birth.
[13:48] herman Bergson: I agree CB
[13:48] Ducky (taurdagfarason): actually, quite on topic, for it underlines the amorality of people who justify murder of unborn babies
[13:49] CB Axel: And you should have no say in how I chose to live my life or to end it.
[13:49] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): changing topics?
[13:49] CB Axel: Who made you the ruler of my body?
[13:49] Ducky (taurdagfarason): sure, the baby is alive in the belly, yet it's fine to cut it to bits and pump it out
[13:49] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder, call things by their names
[13:49] Ducky (taurdagfarason): who made people the master of life of the unborn babe?
[13:49] CB Axel: It's not alive until it can live on its own. Otherwise, it's a parasite.
[13:50] Alterglobalization: never mind people
[13:50] Alterglobalization: he is a dull
[13:50] Ducky (taurdagfarason): yet humans are not parasites biologically, your desire to justify murder is flaed
[13:50] herman Bergson: We are discussing autonomy of the individual here....not abortion and its ethical implications
[13:50] Alterglobalization: you can give any good reasons of the world
[13:50] Ducky (taurdagfarason): autonomy of the baby is neglected when it's murdered
[13:50] herman Bergson: it is not the topic of today...
[13:50] Alterglobalization: he will stay on his own ideas
[13:50] Alterglobalization: he is a troll
[13:50] Alterglobalization: trolling
[13:50] CB Axel: OK. I'll leave abortion aside.
[13:51] Ducky (taurdagfarason): nice try to avoid deeper implications of your murderous reasoning, murder apologist
[13:51] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): hahah
[13:51] herman Bergson: Ok...this is a whole new happening in my class...:-)
[13:51] CB Axel: I still think an adult, living person should have the right to live or die according to their own desires.
[13:51] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): ok, but imagine you were suffering very hard, Ducky and had very short to live
[13:51] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): imagine that
[13:52] ellenilli (ellenilli.lavendel) is offline.
[13:52] Alterglobalization: i think women are not obliged to get pregnant if they don't want to
[13:52] herman Bergson: we got in ONE class two people who like to disrupt the conversation :-)
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its YOUR will i guess
[13:52] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): wouldn't you like me to kill you?
[13:52] Ducky (taurdagfarason): why are you fine with murder of babies?
[13:52] Alterglobalization: women should have right on their body and sexuality and decide for their body
[13:52] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): You would end suffering. I'd be pleased to help you Ducky
[13:52] herman Bergson: Never happened in ten years :-)))
[13:52] Alterglobalization: without woman baby can't live so it's up to woman's decision to give birth or not
[13:52] theo Velde is online.
[13:52] herman Bergson: Very interesting.....guess it is full moon tonight :-)
[13:53] Ducky (taurdagfarason): why do you support murder of the old and the feeble that will lead of casting aside of the elderly and the feeble and the retarded into the realm of the non-existence therough the gateway of murder?
[13:53] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): No, ducky. Try to understand. The suffering, Ducky, the suffering
[13:53] Alterglobalization: if a woman gives birth without wanting it, the baby risks to be the most sad baby of the world not getting love
[13:53] herman Bergson: CLASS DISMISSED..... \o/
[13:53] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): you pretend you don't understand.
[13:53] Ducky (taurdagfarason): of course, you would attempt to insult me, murder apologist, for the truth hurts you deeply
[13:53] Alterglobalization: he can't understand
[13:53] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): hahah
[13:53] Ducky (taurdagfarason): woman consents when having sex
[13:53] Alterglobalization: he has no brain
[13:53] CB Axel: Anyway, even though I'm an atheist, I can respect another person's religion. If they feel that medical care is against their beliefs, I would not force it on them.
[13:54] herman Bergson: Feel free to continue your discussion though :-)
[13:54] Alterglobalization: he is a machine
[13:54] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder
[13:54] Alterglobalization: russian robot
[13:54] Alterglobalization: from dictatorship
[13:54] Ducky (taurdagfarason): Alter, you are ideologically biased against life
[13:54] herman Bergson: REDRUM....!
[13:54] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): murder is murder and stupid is stupid
[13:54] Alterglobalization: he loves to lick putin's asshole
[13:54] herman Bergson: Do you remember....The Shining....REDRUM
[13:54] Alterglobalization: getting all the shit of Putin in his mouth
[13:54] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): ok, what about killing Islamists Ducky?
[13:54] herman Bergson: REDRUM = MURDER :-))
[13:54] Ducky (taurdagfarason): you get angry, because you know that your murder apologetics are ethically vile
[13:54] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Can we kill islamists?
[13:54] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): no bye for now, this is turning into chaos it seems
[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu next time
[13:55] Alterglobalization: sure it's turning into chaos
[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: i will fry a duck tomorrow :-) a murdered one. from the supermarket
[13:55] Alterglobalization: because ducky is a troll
[13:55] CB Axel: If Ducky could have his life ruined and possibly endangered by pregnancy, he might have a different opinion.
[13:55] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Bye part
[13:55] Ducky (taurdagfarason): Alter, you are the one that insulted me when I came in, talking politely to you and all here.
[13:55] Alterglobalization: it's useless to feed the troll
[13:55] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Duck Murder is much murder
[13:55] Ducky (taurdagfarason): you behave as a troll yet accuse me of trolling
[13:55] herman Bergson: SMILES
[13:55] Alterglobalization: haha
[13:55] Ducky (taurdagfarason): all because I underlined how you are morally vacuous and full of shit
[13:55] CB Axel: I can respect your beliefs, Ducky, if you would respect mine.
[13:55] Ducky (taurdagfarason): no, Alter
[13:56] Alterglobalization: this one is good
[13:56] herman Bergson: This is really a new experience in my class :-)
[13:56] Ciska Riverstone: duck in orange sauce bergie?
[13:56] herman Bergson: A sitting Duck :-)
[13:56] CB Axel: And if I want to end my life, what business is it of yours?
[13:56] Ducky (taurdagfarason): People without a moral base will spin any kind of nonsense to justify murder
[13:56] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): I respect stupid views as if they were my own
[13:56] herman Bergson: Quite amusing....for class is already dismissed :-)
[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: on
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: yes Ciska:-) and potato dumplings
[13:57] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): maybe your classes lack verve, Bergman
[13:57] Ciska Riverstone: yummy bergie ㋡
[13:57] CB Axel: Oh, well. Ducky will never change his mind, so I give up.
[13:57] CB Axel: Cute, Ciska.
[13:57] bergfrau Apfelbaum: thank you herman:-) and class
[13:57] herman Bergson: I don't like meaningless discussions based on tautologies John
[13:58] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:58] Ducky (taurdagfarason): murder is murder
[13:58] John Howard Cassio (sticaatsi): Thank you all for the conversation, thanks Herman
[13:58] CB Axel: Thanks, Ciska!
