587: Finding the individual....

I am glad to tell you, that I can resume classes again. The stressfull and distracting  situation in RL is over earlier than expected.

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We sold the house and have bought a new one. Now it is just a matter of time, during which I can not sit still and do nothing.

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So, let’s continue our philosophical quest about existentialism and free will.

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I refer to existentialism, not because this is such an important philosophy, but primarily, because it focuses so explicitly on the individual.

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In my opinion, contrary to other cultures and even groups in our own Western culture, we have made the individual the centre of our interpretation of existence.

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In other words, the individual is the primary value in how we define human life. We, for instance, formulated the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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They are commonly understood as inalienable fundamental rights "to which a person is inherently entitled simply because she or he is a human being," 

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and which are "inherent in all human beings" regardless of their nation, location, language, religion, ethnic origin or any other status.

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We have a number of words of this characteristic of our culture: individual, person, personal identity, the self, and so on.

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As the diagram behind me shows, it is not an obvious fact, that the centre of values, which determines our behaviour, is the individual.

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In several cultures, ideologies and the like, the individual is subordinated to other values, varying from gods to collectives.

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And as you can read in the diagram I relate this subordination to degrees of irrationality and rationality. 

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Or, to say it in another way, the outcome of evolution is eventually a rational being.

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That means, the reason why homo sapiens is a unique being on this planet, is due to its ability to define reality in a rational way.

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Based on this view I”d like to use the idea of methodological individualism, a phrase coined by a student of Max Weber, Joseph Schumpeter in 1908.

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In Economy and Society (1922), Weber himself articulates the central precept of methodological individualism in the following way: 

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When discussing social phenomena, we often talk about various “social collectivities, such as states, associations, business corporations, foundations, as if they were individual persons”.

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Thus we talk about them having plans, performing actions, suffering losses, and so forth. The doctrine of methodological individualism does not take issue with these ordinary ways of speaking, 

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it merely stipulates that “in sociological work these collectivities must be treated as solely the resultants and modes of organization of the particular acts of individual persons, 

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since these alone can be treated as agents in a course of subjectively understandable action”.

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The question of today is, when did we discover the fact that we are individuals? You could point at Aristotle, but I am thinking of another moment in history.

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The moment, that man realised that he was NOT the centre of the universe, but just an inhabitant of one of the many planets in the universe.

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I am thinking of men like Copernicus (1473 -  1543),  Kepler (1571 – 1630) , the German mathematician, astronomer, and astrologer, Tycho Brahe, (1546 – 24 October 1601),

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and in philosophy I am thinking of Descartes, who made the individual mind the starting point of our consciousness.

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From there we’ll pay a visit to a number of philosophers, who described the individual. Men like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, maybe Hegel, Kierkegaard, Sartre  and so on.

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So, get ready, we’ve work to do. Thank you…the floor is yours…

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Main Sources:

MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition

Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://www.iep.utm.edu/

http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: I could add....after we have explored the individual we'll investigate the question if he has a free will or not

[13:21] Ciera Bergman is online.

[13:21] Wesley Regenbogen: free will isn't that a human right ?

[13:21] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...feel free...:-)

[13:22] herman Bergson: a human right?

[13:22] Max Chatnoir: I think the rationality to irrationality is an interesting one.

[13:22] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): is caught up in the "Individual - realization"

[13:22] Areyn Laurasia: :)

[13:22] Wesley Regenbogen: well, I mean, everyone has the right to do what they want, right ?

[13:22] Mandy Arabello: So are you suggesting, Herman, that man was not self aware as an individual before they discovered that the earth is not the centre of the universe ?

[13:23] Areyn Laurasia: if it doesn't intrude upon the rights of others...

[13:23] herman Bergson: yes Wesley..

[13:23] herman Bergson: Interesting point Mandy.....

[13:23] herman Bergson: That is not what I want to say.....

[13:23] Max Chatnoir: It seems to me that individualism could also be irrational.

[13:23] herman Bergson: of course consciousness leads to selfawareness...

[13:24] Wesley Regenbogen: I hope you don't mind me as a reporter being here, Herman

[13:24] Max Chatnoir: But maybe self responsibility leads to more careful thought?

[13:24] herman Bergson: But my point is that like the diagram tries to show too...man subordinated his individuality to other values...

[13:24] Jarapanda Snook: I should think that humans were self aware 2 million years ago

[13:25] herman Bergson: That is your free will Wesley...

[13:25] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:25] Wesley Regenbogen: I see

[13:25] Wesley Regenbogen: :D

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): why 2 million years ago? Jarapanda

[13:25] herman Bergson: again...self awareness is not identical to the individualism we experience today

[13:26] Jarapanda Snook: that's about the time when we start to think of humans as being a separate species

[13:26] Jarapanda Snook: whales are self aware they say

[13:27] herman Bergson: yes....look at the diagram at the wall..homo habilis, australopiticus...etc :-)

[13:27] Jarapanda Snook: so do they regard themselves as individuals?

[13:27] Max Chatnoir: I missed the last meeting, so I'm not sure what you said about individualism before in terms of rationality.

[13:27] Wesley Regenbogen: but the question remains : "Are we alone in the universe or not ?" Is humankind aware that they might not be alone in the universe ?

[13:27] CB Axel: So you're not asking when we became self aware, but when did we begin to look at individual freedoms and responsibilities rather than our responsibilities to our families, nations, etc?

[13:27] herman Bergson: Indeed CB.....

[13:27] Jarapanda Snook: the odds are stacked against us ever having come into existence

[13:27] Max Chatnoir: I saw an interesting article recently that connected religion with an increase in human group size, and therefore a decrease in community acquaintance.

[13:28] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Awesome summery CB, thank you

[13:28] herman Bergson: During the Middle Ages for instance man was one of God's sheep :-)

[13:28] CB Axel: Some still are.

[13:28] CB Axel: Or so they think.

[13:28] herman Bergson: that is what I said, too :-)

[13:28] Wesley Regenbogen: personally, I don't believe in God, lol, but that's a personal thing, of course

[13:29] Areyn Laurasia: what about the homo naledi...?

[13:29] herman Bergson: some cultures don't value individuality at all

[13:29] Max Chatnoir: Chimps recognize themselves as individuals, if there is anything to the mirror test.

[13:29] herman Bergson: indeed Max...and Homo nadeli is still a riddle

[13:30] herman Bergson: brain mass for instance doesn’t relate to ours at all

[13:30] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): not according to the scientists working for National Geographic, Herman

[13:30] Max Chatnoir: About like that of a chimp, I think.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Ahh....is that so Chantal?

[13:30] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): I will pass you the link

[13:30] herman Bergson: What info have you got on that?

[13:31] herman Bergson: To get to the point again.....

[13:31] herman Bergson: what fascinates me is the fact that we see ourselves as individuals...

[13:32] herman Bergson: and that this idea emerged around 1600

[13:32] herman Bergson: and that it is typical for Western culture....

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wasn't that a;ways the case?

[13:32] herman Bergson: no...

[13:32] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Naledi article: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/09/150915-humans-death-burial-anthropology-Homo-naledi/

[13:33] herman Bergson: We invented this concept

[13:33] Jarapanda Snook: how can you be so sure?

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i can’t imagine that i'm not an individual

[13:33] CB Axel: We were individuals but subject to the will of God.

[13:33] Max Chatnoir: I think that having names must connect to the idea of individuality.

[13:33] herman Bergson: How can I be so sure.....

[13:33] herman Bergson: good question....

[13:33] Max Chatnoir: We don't name sheep, at least not sheep in large herds.

[13:33] herman Bergson: are philosophers ever sure about something :-))

[13:33] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Good point Max

[13:33] Areyn Laurasia: how about... I thought I was a unique individual until I went out into the world and I find there are people who are similar?

[13:33] CB Axel: So we were not individuals. We were parts of God's plan for the world.

[13:34] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): eeek CB

[13:34] Jossy Jacobus is online.

[13:34] Jarapanda Snook: You will need to convince me that we are part of anyone's plan

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): if you believe there is a God, maybe it's true

[13:34] Areyn Laurasia: more like one big experiment to see what happens next?

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but I don't believe there is one

[13:34] herman Bergson: That Jarapanda is exactly the point....

[13:35] Areyn Laurasia: but that's speculative.

[13:35] CB Axel: I'm not saying I believe that. I'm saying that before 1600, that's what people believed.

[13:35] CB Axel: And some still do.

[13:35] herman Bergson: if we are individuals we define ourselfves.....create our own plan

[13:35] CB Axel: Just not me.

[13:35] Mandy Arabello: surely belief in a God is an individual's response to ingnorance?

[13:35] herman Bergson: that is a clear statement Mandy :-)

[13:36] Areyn Laurasia: if the concept of individuals has existed a few million years ago...  why do we only look at it in terms of centuries?

[13:36] CB Axel: Try to look at this from the eyes of a 16th century person.

[13:36] Mandy Arabello: as time goes by we know more about the world, are laess ignorant, and thus less religious ?

[13:36] Max Chatnoir: On the response to a reduction in supervision in larger groups.

[13:36] herman Bergson: somewhat along the line or rationality vs. irrationality

[13:36] Max Chatnoir: Invent God as the ultimate alpha male.

[13:36] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): it should work like that, Mandy ㋡

[13:37] Mandy Arabello: for me it seems to work like that...

[13:37] Mandy Arabello: 2000 years ago humans knew little of the world...

[13:37] Mandy Arabello: so they invented a god to explain thunder, for example...

[13:37] herman Bergson: That is what is happening in Europe Mandy....

[13:37] Mandy Arabello: now we know what causes thunder so we don't need a god to explain it

[13:37] herman Bergson: Not only among christian people....but also among islamic people....

[13:39] Max Chatnoir: The people who wrote the article about "moralizing gods" and population size, suggested that the shift was to gods that were making rules about human behavior.  Rather than just gods that took care of trees and the ocean and lightning and so forth.

[13:39] Jarapanda Snook: you think, Herman, that atheism is growing amongst the islamic world??

[13:39] herman Bergson: at the end we are alone as an idividual only supported by our rationality.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: It is growing among islamic people in Europe Jarapanda....

[13:40] Jarapanda Snook: well, there is hope for us yet, then

[13:40] Max Chatnoir: Herman you have got us back onto God by putting that big pink block at the bottom of your diagram!

[13:40] herman Bergson: and even in islamic countries there are people who now dare to talk about atheism...

[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: :)

[13:40] Max Chatnoir: I hope that is true, herman.

[13:40] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): me too... the exodus scares me really

[13:40] CB Axel: If they're atheist, they're not Islamic. ;) hehehe

[13:40] Max Chatnoir: But apostasy can sure get you into trouble there.

[13:40] Areyn Laurasia: why do we need to go back to the idea of a God when we are talking about individuals? are we not capable of thinking for ourselves?

[13:40] Jarapanda Snook: in my view the sooner that the worls converts to atheism the safer we will all be

[13:40] herman Bergson: I am in the top of the diagram, Max...not at the bottom :-))

[13:41] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡

[13:41] herman Bergson: I'd agree to  that Jarapanda :-)

[13:41] Max Chatnoir: I know, Herman, but it's such teeny font.  :-)

[13:41] Wesley Regenbogen: I'm going to go offline now

[13:41] Wesley Regenbogen: I'm going to sleep now

[13:41] Areyn Laurasia: enjoy

[13:41] Wesley Regenbogen: bye

[13:41] Wesley Regenbogen: see you

[13:41] Wesley Regenbogen: take care

[13:41] Areyn Laurasia: bye, Wesley

[13:41] CB Axel: Bye, Wesley.

[13:41] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): bye ㋡

[13:41] herman Bergson: We still have a long way to go the get the font larger MAx :-))

[13:42] Max Chatnoir: Invert the pyramid.  :-)

[13:42] Areyn Laurasia: if you ask a baby.. the idea of being a unique individual and a will of his/her own probably starts about four/five months..

[13:43] herman Bergson: that is indeed a kind of evolutionary perspective Max :-)

[13:43] Jarapanda Snook: 3-4 years Areyn, I should say

[13:43] CB Axel: Areyn, and it's at that point that the parents probably start taking the kid to church and teaching it to not be an individual any more. °͜°

[13:43] Areyn Laurasia: just personal observation

[13:44] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): long before they took it to church... their ideas about life were clear to the child

[13:44] Jarapanda Snook: at 2 years kids are aware that they want something, but no0t usually self aware in the sense that they don't see themselves as the centre of the universe

[13:45] Areyn Laurasia: they are even aware of the concept of fairness at three months

[13:45] herman Bergson: Piaget thinks different, Jarapanda :-)

[13:45] Max Chatnoir: I think our dogs understand fairness.

[13:45] Jarapanda Snook: taking kids to church and indoctrinating them is my idea of child abuse

[13:45] CB Axel: Me, too, Jarapanda.

[13:45] Max Chatnoir: If one gets a treat, the other wants one too.

[13:45] herman Bergson: in the cognitive development of a child it is for a long period egocentric....

[13:45] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): same

[13:45] Areyn Laurasia: still remembers the youtube link you gave in one of the classes here :)

[13:46] herman Bergson: it has to learn that others can feel pain too forinstance

[13:46] Jarapanda Snook: my granddaughter is now fully self aware at 4

[13:46] Jarapanda Snook: at 2 she was clever, but wouldn’t have been able to philosophise about her individuality

[13:47] Max Chatnoir: What would she say if you asked her what it meant to be her?

[13:47] Jarapanda Snook: I'll ask her next time I see her...

[13:47] Areyn Laurasia: :)

[13:47] Max Chatnoir: Do you have those conversations?  I wish I'd thought of that when my daughter was that age.  :-)

[13:47] Jarapanda Snook: but I think she would have an answer

[13:48] Max Chatnoir: I think she probably would.

[13:48] Jarapanda Snook: you don't with your own kids - you are to busy

[13:48] Areyn Laurasia: shall I experiment with that? XD

[13:48] Max Chatnoir: I think you are right, Jarapanda.

[13:48] Jarapanda Snook: only with grandkids do you have time for such reflection

[13:49] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): not really Jarapanda...depends on the parents

[13:49] CB Axel: What's the point of having kids if you're not going to experiment on them. °͜°

[13:49] herman Bergson: I don't think the little one will have an abstract concept such as individuality....

[13:49] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): :)))

[13:49] Areyn Laurasia: but they are their own individuals... ! :)

[13:49] herman Bergson: as opposed to collectiveness

[13:49] Max Chatnoir: Ow!  Just don't break the skin.  :-)

[13:49] Jarapanda Snook: at 2 my granddaughter had no abstract concepts - at 4 she has plenty!!

[13:50] Jarapanda Snook: she plans and imagines the outcomes of her actions

[13:50] Max Chatnoir: I remember my kid's definition of like and love when she was that age.

[13:50] Max Chatnoir: Like is a big heart.  Love is a big explanation point.

[13:50] Max Chatnoir: sorry, exclamation point.

[13:50] Jarapanda Snook: :-)

[13:51] Jarapanda Snook: just looking at the blogspot stats, Herman

[13:52] herman Bergson: I assume kids don't understand the concept of individuality in the more philosophical sense as we try to do here

[13:52] Jarapanda Snook: I forgot that all this gets beamed out to the world hehe

[13:52] herman Bergson: ahh  yes Jarapanda :-)

[13:52] Max Chatnoir: Oops.

[13:52] Areyn Laurasia: :)

[13:52] herman Bergson: Now the rest of the world may learn about your granddaughter :-))

[13:52] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): being proud of your granddaughter... is a very beautiful thing, Jarapanda

[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: relax...

[13:53] herman Bergson: Indeed it is Chantal....

[13:53] Jarapanda Snook: I first became aware of that when I googles my SL name once and there was all this stuff I'd said right here

[13:53] herman Bergson: Is that so? :-))

[13:53] Areyn Laurasia: why does the nation come before the tribe in the diagram?

[13:53] Max Chatnoir: I was wondering that also, Areyn.

[13:53] Jarapanda Snook: HAHAHA - I spend 2 days a week with her so I have had a good chance to see her grow

[13:54] herman Bergson: Because nations can be composed of many tribes...

[13:54] Jarapanda Snook: with my own kids we were just hard working

[13:54] herman Bergson: while tribes just stick to their own territory

[13:55] Max Chatnoir: So a tribe is smaller?

[13:55] herman Bergson: I don’t think it is a matter of size, Max...

[13:55] herman Bergson: just of territorial behavior

[13:55] Max Chatnoir: Well, I guess your arrow is rationality, not size, isn't it?

[13:56] herman Bergson: the size of the slices in the triangle try to visualize what is subordinated to what

[13:57] Areyn Laurasia: I guess tribes do live beyond any typical geographical boundary of a nation.

[13:57] herman Bergson: this model kind of answers the questions...where do people get their values from which guide their life

[13:57] CB Axel: It makes sense when you put it that way, Herman.

[13:58] Max Chatnoir: Yes.

[13:58] herman Bergson: and the source of these values is either irrationality in some degree up to rationality

[13:59] Max Chatnoir: There seem to be multiple variables operating here.

[13:59] herman Bergson: Like the Declaration of Human Rights is the product of a rational attempt

[14:00] herman Bergson: ok...the next lectures I'll try to focus on the question...what is the individual.....

[14:00] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Time to turn in for me :( Herman I hope you had a beautiful day, thank you for activating the grey mass again ㋡ Enjoy everyone, see you soon :)

[14:00] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): truste Chantal

[14:00] CB Axel: Bye, Chantal.

[14:01] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Jij ook ㋡

[14:01] herman Bergson: Thank you Chantal :-)

[14:01] Areyn Laurasia: pleasant dreams, Chantal

[14:01] Mandy Arabello: Night Chantal

[14:01] Max Chatnoir: Thanks, Herman!  You guys always get my brain buzzing.

[14:01] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Waves ㋡

[14:01] Chantal (nymf.hathaway) is offline.

[14:01] herman Bergson: I know..time to return to the Olympus :-))

[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye Chantal:-)) sleep well

[[14:01] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman and class!

[14:01] Max Chatnoir: I must leave also.

[14:01] herman Bergson: you are welcome , Bergie :-)

[14:01] Jarapanda Snook: see you next time guys

[14:01] Areyn Laurasia: Thanks for the thoughts and a very happy birthday to you

[14:01] Max Chatnoir: Thanks for reconvening this, Herman.

[14:02] Mandy Arabello: happy Birthday Herman :-)

[14:02] herman Bergson: Thank you all.....Class dismissed :-)

[14:02] bergfrau Apfelbaum: clapclap**

[14:02] herman Bergson: I made 66 today Mandy :-))

[14:02] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman

[14:02] CB Axel: Herman, I hope you had a lovely birthday, and I'm so glad that the problems you're having are working themselves out. °͜°

[14:02] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Mandy Arabello donated L$50. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[14:02] Areyn Laurasia: still young :)

[14:03] herman Bergson: oh yes :-)

[14:03] Max Chatnoir: Happy Birthday!

[14:03] CB Axel: Are we meeting again on Thursday then?

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum:                   ¸.•´¯`•.¸

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum:             ¸.•´¯`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum:       ¸.•´¯`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: ¸.•´¯`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum:  ♫♪♪ HAPPY HAPPY BIRTHDAY ♪♪♫ 

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: `•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸ herman ¸.•´¯`•.¸¸.•´

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum:       `•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸¸.•´

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum:             `•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸¸.•´

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum:                   `•.¸.¸.•´

[14:03] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Bergie...that's nice

[14:03] herman Bergson: Yes CB...I take up the standard schedule again....

[14:03] bergfrau Apfelbaum: it is in the folder:-) Beertje

[14:03] herman Bergson: Tuesday and Thursday...

[14:03] Max Chatnoir: /see you all Thursday?

[14:04] CB Axel: OK. Great! I'll see you all on Thursday.

[14:04] Areyn Laurasia: take care out there :)

[14:04] Max Chatnoir: Bye now.

586: Existentialism & Free Will - an Introduction

Welcome to you all. It’s been a while, I know and it is good to see you again. A new project… Existentialism and Free Will.

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Why this combination of themes? Free will has always been debated in philosophy, but only in logical arguments.

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These days, however, there are people, who claim to have empirical evidence, neurological evidence, that free will is just an illusion created by the brain.

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We never were shocked by the argument that because God knows EVERYTHING, so…also what I will say in the next lines,

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it is impossible, that free will can exist, because while I believe I choose freely, God already knew what I would choose.

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We will look into this debate later in the project of course. However, empirical evidence…. neurological evidence ?  That is a different story.

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Funny thing is, that by saying this I am in fact already begging the question of this project: why should empirical evidence have so much more weight than logical conclusions from an argument?

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Existentialism, in a nutshell, is completely based on the assumption, that we make choices. Because we are free to choose due to our free will, it makes us morally responsible.

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Now, assume that this idea from neurobiological quarters is true, that free will is in fact an illusion, then logically all fundamental ideas of existentialism are based on an illusion,

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which would mean that we could forget about existentialism as a view of man and his condition. Someone even might say, that existentialism thus in fact is like any other religion.

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Ok, somebody might protest here and say: Hold on…do you mean that any religion is based on an illusion? Personally I would answer the question with “Yes”.

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For I still do not understand how it is possible to  murder your fellowmen and justify such actions by referring to religious believes. 

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Only homo sapiens murders and kills, motivated by believes, not only religious ones, but equally political and ideological ones.

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This brings us close to a quintessential element of this project: individualism. According to the dictionary it means 

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“Belief in the primary importance of the individual and in the virtues of self-reliance and personal independence”

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or “a social theory advocating the liberty, rights, or independent action of the individual”.

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More scientifically formulated along the lines of thought of Max Weber in his “Economy and Society” (1922) it amounts to the idea,

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that social phenomena must be explained by showing how they result from individual actions, which in turn must be explained through reference to the intentional states that motivate the individual actors.

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Thus we could come to the observation, that existentialism is based on free which which as such shapes the individual and thence society, that is, our culture.

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Now look at the conversation in the cartoon of psychiatrist doctor Sigmund, which was published in my newspaper last week.

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Patient: Doctor Sigmund, my end is near and that is about time, because I act arrogant and superior and expect, that everyone thinks like I do.

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Doctor Sigmund: Tell me…. Do you happen to be Western Civilization?

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Patient: Beware, you may use  that term only in a mocking  and dismissive way.

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It is 2015 and a cartoonist feels, that his is the right moment to create this cartoon. Where does such an idea come from? Why does it emerge now?

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I’ll offer you the following interpretation. Just like  Samuel Huntington predicted are we now in the midst a clash of civilizations, as he described in his article in Foreign Affairs in 1993.

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In the introduction of his book (1996) “The Clash of Civilizations And the remaking of World Order” he writes: 

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“One grim Weltanschauung for this new era was well expressed by the Venetian nationalist demagogue in Michael Dibdin's novel, Dead Lagoon (1994): 

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’There can be no true friends without true enemies. Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are. 

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These are the old truths we are painfully rediscovering after a century and more of sentimental cant. Those who deny them deny their family, their heritage, their culture, their birthright, their very selves! 

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They will not lightly be forgiven.’ The unfortunate truth in these old truths cannot be ignored by statesmen and scholars. 

.

For peoples seeking identity and reinventing ethnicity, enemies are essential, and the potentially most dangerous enmities occur across the fault lines between the world's major civilizations.”

.

It is from this perspective, that I want to develop this project and from which I take a stand. In the diagram behind me I have tried to visualize the quintessence of my ideas.

.

You could interpret the diagram from the perspective of “seeking identity and reinventing ethnicity”. 

.

Homo sapiens is a social animal with one exceptional and unique quality: his rationality, which enables him to explain his existence and identity ultimately by knowledge, by science.

.

This does not imply, that homo sapiens is a rational being. Sometimes you even tend to believe that the opposite is true.

.

The only claim I make is that eventually it was his ability to think in a rational manner, that shaped his existence through evolution into what it is now.

.

However, when we look at the world how it is now, we must conclude that homo sapiens defines himself, his identity, his values, his social bonds in ways, ranging from irrationally to rational.

.

“For peoples seeking identity and reinventing ethnicity, enemies are essential…” and your first enemy is the person who does not believe in the same god as you do.

.

When you drop religion, you still can stick to the bonds within your tribe and if tribes are no longer the binding factor, you still have your country, your nation-state.

.

If the  nation-state ceases to bind people, they still have their family. 

.

When the family falls apart the homo sapiens realizes, that eventually he is only an individual, who has to define himself like Descartes did with his “Cogito, ergo sum”.

.

Eventually, what is left to homo sapiens is his rationality, which enables him to understand and interpret the reality he lives in.

.

That is what enabled him to develop physics or medical science, what made him visit the moon or communicate using his cellphone.

.

Against this background I’ll try to analyze, how man eventually defined his existentialist position and then I’ll try to understand this human condition in relation to claims that free will might be an illusion.

.

And we even may discover, that existentialism as we know it, is not at all the kind of interpretation of individualism in conjunction with rationality we seek.

.

Thank you for your attention…the floor is yours :-)

 .

The Discussion

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have to rush off

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will think on it all

[13:19] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Great writeup, Herman :)

[13:19] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): This will be an interesting journey

[13:19] herman Bergson: This was only the introduction :-))

[13:19] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:19] Areyn Laurasia: Be well, Gemma

[13:19] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Take care, Gemma

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: cu gemma

[13:20] CB Axel: You're saying in part that our identities are based on who our enemies are?

[13:20] herman Bergson: really nice of Gemma....she came on for the lecture....

[13:20] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Free will as a requisite for existentialism is interesting...

[13:20] CB Axel: Bye, Gemma.

[13:20] Bejiita Imako: yes indeed

[13:20] herman Bergson: Ahh CB, yes that CAN be the case and often is

[13:21] herman Bergson: but it is not a necessary condition for defining your identity

[13:21] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Though I can see that; I've always seen existentialism a bit more accepting of the limits on choice

[13:21] CB Axel: I see.

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: I feel lke i decide for myself, that nothing else makes all my decisions so i d say i have a free will

[13:21] Bejiita Imako: but maybe its more complex

[13:22] Bejiita Imako: its an interesting concept

[13:22] herman Bergson: Well Violet, I actually want to "use" the development of existentialism as a way of focusing on the idea of individualism

[13:22] herman Bergson: in the way Weber investigates it

[13:23] herman Bergson: Descartes reduced man to a single "I"

[13:23] Areyn Laurasia: “In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it’s impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them.... I destroy them.” ― Orson Scott Card, Ender's Game

[13:23] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): It's a good filter for individual meaning... and whether we have any control over our actions, and therefore meaning, is a pretty existential idea :)

[13:23] herman Bergson: Ender's game !

[13:23] Violet (ataraxia.azemus): Unfortunately, I need to run off... Thanks, Herman, everyone. Be well :)

[13:23] herman Bergson: I just read it...

[13:23] Areyn Laurasia: :)

[13:23] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Bye Violat :))

[13:23] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Violet even

[13:23] herman Bergson: Bye Violet

[13:24] CB Axel: Bye, Violet.

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: bye violet

[13:24] herman Bergson: I immediately recognized your quote Areyn :-))

[13:24] Areyn Laurasia: I hope I have free will but I'm too persuaded by others thoughts ;)

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: you can get affected by others in deciding thats drue

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:25] herman Bergson: It is a whole history and debate what you mean by free will

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: but still its up to you to take control

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: should you or not

[13:25] CB Axel: But you still have the will to not listen to what others are saying.

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:26] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): you can even wonder if that is free will, CB

[13:26] herman Bergson: There is a whole debate going on in economics.... Ration Choice Theory.....

[13:26] herman Bergson: Rational

[13:26] CB Axel: On the other hand, I've heard that the more you hear a particular point of view, the more likely you are to also take that view.

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: that can be true

[13:27] herman Bergson: Just was commercials CB and you're convinced ^_^

[13:27] herman Bergson: watch

[13:27] CB Axel: I don't watch them. °͜°

[13:28] herman Bergson: Smart !...defending and protecting your free will :-))

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: i just thought of same things

[13:28] illing Edman: Sorry guys I missed the whole class...My sister walked in with her boyfriend so I better stop.... till the next time Sorry !

[13:28] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Enjoy Illing ㋡

[13:28] herman Bergson: Greetings to your sister and friend Illing :-)

[13:28] CB Axel: Please join us again next time, illing.

[13:28] illing Edman: bye

[13:28] herman Bergson: Bye :-)

[13:28] illing Edman: I will certainly come the next time again

[13:29] illing Edman: kisses

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: o the other hand i dont need to be fed with coca cola commercial in order to know its good stuff

[13:29] herman Bergson: Ahhh...talking about the next time.....

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:29] herman Bergson: I have something important to say about that.....

[13:29] CB Axel: Bleech. I prefer Pepsi. LOL

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Pepsi is better

[13:30] herman Bergson: When will be the next time....?????

[13:30] herman Bergson: I will tell you....

[13:30] CB Axel: Don't take our word on that, though, Bejiita. Exercise your free will.

[13:30] herman Bergson: JANUARY 2016.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: Let me explain...

[13:31] herman Bergson: In RL I am in the middle of selling my house and buying a new one and then moving to another part of the country....

[13:31] CB Axel: Again?

[13:31] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): surrounded by tulips he will be ㋡

[13:31] herman Bergson: it creates a lot of ado and stress, consumes time for packing a whole household...and so on

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes..in springtime I'll show you pictures :-)

[13:32] herman Bergson: So I have decided to postpone continuation of this project till I am sellted in again in my new home

[13:33] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Can only understand ㋡ and hope all goes smooth

[13:33] herman Bergson: In other words...I send you on a nice vacation again ....

[13:33] CB Axel nods

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: indeed, hope all goes well

[13:33] CB Axel: I hate moving house.

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: its a hell of work

[13:33] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): yes is

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: but nice when done

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...that in itself is already our main and permant worry....

[13:34] Areyn Laurasia: a change of scenery is always nice

[13:34] herman Bergson: Oh yes Areyn :-)

[13:34] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Fields of tulips... fields as far as he can see :))))

[13:35] herman Bergson: Now I live in a part of the country where they speak a dialect, which isn't my way.....I gonna move back to where they  speak real Dutch :-)

[13:35] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:35] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): ㋡

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: aa ok

[13:35] herman Bergson: But at this moment the situation is a kind of clif hanger.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: we need the 100% confirmation of several things...they are now still in the 99% certain phase

[13:36] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Stressful :(

[13:37] CB Axel: Dang 1%'ers.

[13:37] herman Bergson: indeed :-)

The Coming Project

585: God takes a vacation...

First of all an announcement. This will be the last lecture of this semester. The next lecture will be on Tuesday September 1.

.

Main reason is that RL will be and is already disturbing my peace of mind, because we are in the middle of the proces of selling our house and moving to another part of the country.

.

Besides I think we all really need a good vacation, which will allow me to prepare new projects for The Philosophy Class.

.

This announcement can not be qualified as evil, that happens to you. Unpleasant perhaps but not evil.

.

At least this is what we have learnt about evil: it only makes sense to call something evil when there is intentional action to harm another person involved.

.

The believe, that storms, hurricanes and earthquakes or a cholera epidemic are real evil, makes only sense,

.

when you believe that there is an intelligent agent behind its natural causes. This however is only for people with some kind of animistic believe system.

.

Or for those who believe in this Old Testament revenging god of christianity. You should watch Richard Dawkins on Youtube in his crusade against this kind of believe.

.

Now that I am talking about him, let me conclude this project with the classic “Problem of Evil”. It is wasted on secular listeners,

.

But keep in mind that a fast majority of the world population still believes in some god , who is directly involved with their personal lives.

.

It all boils down to this: The existence of evil and suffering in our world seems to pose a serious challenge to belief in the existence of a perfect God. 

.

If God were all-knowing, it seems that God would know about all of the horrible things that happen in our world. 

.

If God were all-powerful, God would be able to do something about all of the evil and suffering. Furthermore, if God were morally perfect, then surely God would want to do something about it.

.

 And yet we find that our world is filled with countless instances of evil and suffering.  

.

These facts about evil and suffering seem to conflict with the orthodox theist claim that there exists a perfectly good God.

.

The problem is this: When you claim that statement  A and B are both true, but their content is evidently contradictory then one of the two HAS to be false.

.

This problem we have to face when we say (A) God exists and (B) Evil exists. We first have to ask what is meant by EVIL and what is meant by GOD.

.

What we mean by evil is at this moment rather clear for us. At  least, independent of any believe system,

.

any intentional action to harm another person may be called evil.

.

What is meant by god we learn from all kinds of sources, but it is something like god means an all-powerful, all-knowing-all-moral, all-good being, which is related to human existence.

.

Even more, this being with these qualities is the very creator of human existence, in which we suffer a lot of evil.

.

I guess, you already see it coming: If evil and suffering exist, then God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.

.

Or we could formulate in Dawkinsian wordings: Putting the point more bluntly, if God exists, he is either impotent, ignorant or wicked. 

.

Or in yet another way: suppose I have my gun pointed at a lunatic who is at the verge of slaughtering dozens of people.

.

The only way to stop him is to shoot him, but not only the imminent slaughter also the shooting of the criminal is harming a person.

.

What should god do? He can not allow the slaughter, nor can he let me shoot the criminal. Ok…the right solution is that he stops us both,

.

thus showing us his all-moral, all-powerful qualities. The very moment I’ll see this happen in our world I’l be more religious and devoted to god than the pope himself.

.

Thank you all for this wonderful year again and your persisting interests in philosophical issues…..

.

I hope to see you all again the first of September  after you have enjoyed a wonderful time.

.

The Discussion

Daruma Boa claps

Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): claps too

Daruma Boa: thank U herman

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Daruma Boa: for your

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): dankjewel Herman

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): still no graduation

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Bejiita Imako: hahaah

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): phoo

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): back again in september to try again

herman Bergson: Yoiu did well this year yoo Gemma...I agree....

Bejiita Imako: good luck with the moving Herman

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well missed more classes

CB Axel: Hmmm. I have a Tiny cap and gown somewhere in my inventory.

bergfrau Apfelbaum: ***** APPPPPPPLLLLAAAUUUSSSSEEEEEEE***********

bergfrau Apfelbaum: and ty herman!! for your great job!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

herman Bergson: you're welcome Bergie ^_^

CB Axel: I do appreciate coming here. It's the only time I do any thinking at all.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol CB

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is terrible

herman Bergson: This have been 12 projects so far...I have to find new inspiration.....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wow yes

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): look in Amsterdam

Bejiita Imako: I have to go there someday

Daruma Boa: ja there is enough inspiration

herman Bergson: Any suggestions for themes?

Daruma Boa: ja i could send you some I guess.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): will have to think

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

Daruma Boa: Must have a look in my papers^^

herman Bergson: Plz do....

Daruma Boa: will do

herman Bergson: One I am thinking about is Free Will.....hot issue these days

CB Axel: We could look at the moral issues involved with either caring for the earth or completely trashing this planet and moving Mars.

herman Bergson: Would be great Daruma

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that would bring up the idea of god again

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): who lets us practice free will

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in his goodness

CB Axel: Not necessarily, Gemma.

Daruma Boa: can i send it on facebook or better here on sl?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah yes

herman Bergson: No facebook plz :-)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

CB Axel: I can see free will being determined by the physics of the universe.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): or voice

Daruma Boa: oki

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): could be a good one then

herman Bergson: This class will never be in voice Gemma :-)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I know

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is what i said

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no voice

Daruma Boa: would be too loud^^^

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and

herman Bergson: yes...it would wake the people...!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no facebook

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and no graduation

CB Axel: lol

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but góód classes Gemma

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep

herman Bergson: Yes Gemma...a Spartan tradition here...^_^

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the first few projects were a lot easier

CB Axel: There. I have my mortarboard.

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a what CB?

herman Bergson: mortarboard? Is that what it is called CB?

CB Axel: Graduation hat in the US.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think my favourite was the women

herman Bergson: Yes that was a nice one, Gemma...loved it too....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): of course

herman Bergson smiles

herman Bergson: Simone de Beauvoir is still on the wall here :-))

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): she was interesting

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they all were

herman Bergson: I see that the Problem of Evil didn’t impress you that much :-)

Bejiita Imako: hehe

Daruma Boa: *GIGGLES* :)~~~~

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): was too short

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we did nto take any field trips

herman Bergson: I had to bring it up.....

CB Axel: Well, since we all seem to be atheists here, we aren't too worried about evil, I guess.

Bejiita Imako: evil is an issue nowadays however for sure

herman Bergson: Indeed CB....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it has always been an issue

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): just different aspects of it

herman Bergson: I just brought it to your attention from a cultural perspective....

CB Axel: Evil, Bejiita, or just the stupidity of man?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): in various times

herman Bergson: If you want to have fun...check out Dawkins on Youtube....

herman Bergson: hilarious....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i saw soem of his stuff

Bejiita Imako: i d say IS and Boko haram are 2 big evils right now

herman Bergson: total waste of time....

Bejiita Imako: hehe ok

CB Axel: Sure, Bejiita. But did you hear about the recents shootings down in Texas?

herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita, they are...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): heard someone i meant to remember the name

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): on tv

Bejiita Imako: aaa yes heard that :(

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): similar to dawkins

herman Bergson: yes our Dutchie Wilders was there too for a speech :-))

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ahha

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): of course there are some here who cannot distinguish between radicals and all muslims

herman Bergson: He is the political leader of the PVV....an anti islam party with 20 or more seats in parliament

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): tsk that many??

herman Bergson: hasnt achieved a thing so far....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): isnt that good

herman Bergson: yes...from the 150

herman Bergson: He has a bog mouth about islam and islamisation of the Netherlands....but that is all

CB Axel: That was at a competition to draw a picture of Mohammad sponsored by an anti-Muslim group. They were deliberately trying to provoke Muslims, so when there was violence they were able to say it's because Islam is a violent religion.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep

CB Axel: Who were the evil ones there? The shooters or the jerks that provoked them?

CB Axel: Or both?

herman Bergson: In Austria they have legislation now which obliges imams for instance to speak the german language...

herman Bergson: been accredited by an Austrian committee....things like that

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): both and IS is now saying they ordered it which I don’t believe for one minute

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they take credit for everything

herman Bergson: The biggest problem with islam and greatest threat to our culture is that we have a separation between state and religion....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear.... Austria

herman Bergson: Islamic countries have not....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): exactly

CB Axel nods

CB Axel: The US also does not despite what our constitution says.

herman Bergson: What we achieved since the Enlightenment is threatened by this alien culture....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh I think we do

herman Bergson: Indeed CB....!

Bejiita Imako: heard that Iran have banned "devil hairstyles" (punker hair and similar ) and tattoos since its against islam

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there is and will never be a state religion

Daruma Boa: luckily gemma

Bejiita Imako: when power and religion mix problems arise

herman Bergson: No that will not happen in the US...I agree Gemma...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): some may try hard to change that

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but never

herman Bergson: But politics an religion in the US are culturally strongly intertwined

CB Axel: Tatoos are forbidden in Judaism, too, but Jews don't try to make others follow their beliefs.

herman Bergson: When a president says.....hand on the bible...So help me god almighty...

Bejiita Imako: IN GOD WE TRUST

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): however they are looking down on the Nigerian jews living there now too

Daruma Boa: a phrase

Daruma Boa: ^^^

Bejiita Imako: its a liiitle bit to much religion involved in US indeed

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): SOME are

herman Bergson: Ethiopian jews

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes I'm Sorry!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you are right

Bejiita Imako: as saidd, its never good to mix start and religion

Bejiita Imako: state

herman Bergson: Culturally interesting for there are also a lot of old Coptic christians in Ethiopia

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

CB Axel: I'm with you on that, Bejiita.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): my philosophy says that the best thing that would bring all together would be a good alien invasion

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): from outerspace

CB Axel: LOL

Bejiita Imako: i really hope that that guy who wanted to shoot homosexuals since its against the bible never got anywhere

Daruma Boa: oh ha

Daruma Boa: what an idea

herman Bergson: I have thought about that often myself Gemma....

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): nothing short of that i think

Daruma Boa: they get killed the aliens

Bejiita Imako: such dudes in politics spells disaster

Daruma Boa: peeps are too much afraid of things they don’t know

herman Bergson: That first yes, Daruma..unfortunately...

Bejiita Imako: ah

CB Axel: You'll have to narrow that down, Bejiita. There are too many here that feel that way for me to know who you mean. ;)

herman Bergson: But such avisit would discredit all religions one way or the other

Bejiita Imako: dont remember his name but what i read about him made me cringe

Bejiita Imako: and he was some politican candidate i think

CB Axel: Probably.

herman Bergson: Ted Cruz?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): no

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he would’n to shoot anyone

herman Bergson: Who has the will of God on his side?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh yes he does he says

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i don’t even believe that he believes that

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but it sounds good to some

CB Axel: I follow @TheTweetOfGod on Twitter and today he said that he talks to Republicans and tells them to run for office for the fun of it.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   ,.·^*'´|'\            ,.·^*'´¯¯¯'`*^·,  ,/ |'`*^·-, 

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |  \       ,·'       ,.·:*:·,         '`i   |          | 

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |   |      ;          ':,:::,:·          ;   |          | 

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|         |   :i - ·;i'`:,         ¯¯         ,·´|  '|          | 

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):  '|         '´         '|'i   `*:~· - ~^*'´    |   |          '`*·-, 

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|          ,.-:^:':'\:'`:;                   :;·:i  /`':^·.,        `'i 

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '|..,.:'´              '\| '`*^~·:-:·~^*'´'|/            '`::.., | 

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):   '´:           ;:-·^*'´                              `'*^·:;-        :;·' 

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate):       `·;:·'´                                                      '`^·:;·´ 

CB Axel: Yes. God is on Twitter.

herman Bergson: Mankind will only make a step forward when it realizes the irrational foundations of their religions

CB Axel: So I guess he does exist.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): there are so many going to run the stage will be very very full

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bernie Sanders of Vermont would be a favourite of yours I think

CB Axel: I do like Bernie. °͜°

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): he is so so common sense!!!

bergfrau Apfelbaum: ty herman ty class :-) see you in September! have a good summer all!! *sun smile*

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you bergie

CB Axel: A Sanders/Warren ticket would be fun.

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Bergie:)

Bejiita Imako: cu bergfrau

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight

herman Bergson: see yuo Bergie ^_*

bergfrau Apfelbaum: byebye´s :-)

bergfrau Apfelbaum: wavewav

CB Axel: Bye, bergfrau. See you in September.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it will come fast watch!!

Bejiita Imako: good luck with moving now Herman

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yes

herman Bergson: Well we firsst need a serious buyer...:-)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah

Bejiita Imako: that can bee a good idea

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

CB Axel: I hope your move is uneventful.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): dont break anything

Bejiita Imako: and not haunted with evils and miss happenings

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): anything even

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: But the house was published with photos on the internet and someone wanted an appointment within ten minutes after posting it

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah nice

Bejiita Imako: aa ok ㋡

CB Axel: That's promising.

Bejiita Imako: yes

herman Bergson: tomoorw two visitors...Friday another one....

Daruma Boa: and may the force be with you^^^

Bejiita Imako: YAY! (yay!)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you are doing it yourselves???

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's a beautiful house:)

herman Bergson: yeah Daruma....!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not a agent?

Daruma Boa: i will send u and notecard here on sl

herman Bergson: hehe...want to see my house?

Daruma Boa: concerning themes

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah nice

CB Axel: Sure, Herman.

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i think we saw it a while back

herman Bergson: I look forward to it Daruma!

CB Axel: I may want to move out of the US after the next election. °͜°

Daruma Boa: ja in septemvber 1st we get a photo show about the new house here^^^

herman Bergson: these are new pictures....super cool

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ah ok

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it was in a viewer of the island vacation some years back

herman Bergson: You can see my desk this time :-)

herman Bergson: My desk is in the living room...

Daruma Boa: hoi rodney^^^^

herman Bergson: the other study is my wife's :-)

Bejiita Imako: is that your house?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very nice

Rodney Handrick: Hi Daruma

herman Bergson: Yes it is Bejiita

Bejiita Imako: aaa looks really nice

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): rodney

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hi

herman Bergson: You can buy it if you like :-)

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): has been ages

CB Axel: That's a lovely house. You must really want to be closer to Amsterdam to leave it.

Rodney Handrick: Hi Gemma

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): thinks it will be better to be near Amsterdam for services

herman Bergson: YEs CB....this is not the place to be buried ^_^

Bejiita Imako: indeed, id love a place like that even if i like it here too

Bejiita Imako: seems cozy

herman Bergson: Hi Rodney

Rodney Handrick: Hi Herman

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): last class of the year rod

CB Axel: Hmmm. A lot of religious imagery. Are you sure you're not a closet Christian?

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you missed the whole year

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh dear

Rodney Handrick: Ah...timing

herman Bergson: lol...CB ....September 1 will be my coming out!

CB Axel: LOL

Bejiita Imako: i like the hall floor

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ok all have a great summer

Bejiita Imako: kind of special

CB Axel: Well, take care and have a successful move.

Bejiita Imako: ㋡

herman Bergson: yes..1936

CB Axel: I'll see you all in September. °͜°

Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bye to all for now

Bejiita Imako: aaa cu then ㋡

Bejiita Imako: bye

herman Bergson: Bye Gemma

herman Bergson: CB

Daruma Boa: bye cb

Daruma Boa: bye gemma

584: How to pinpoint evil...?

Philosophers often discuss an example in which a person is presented with a dilemma. If he kills one innocent person, ten others will be saved. If he does not, they will all be killed.

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Raimond Gaita  in his book  “Good and Evil, An Absolute Conception” (1991) puts it this way:

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“The deeper issue is that those who think it obvious that one should be shot to save ten have no serious sense of evil – neither of evil done nor of evil suffered.”

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A serious statement. The primary assumption is, that we as human beings should do no evil. And thence the question is, what should the person with the gun DO?

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Will he do good or evil when he comes to a decision? We can interpret evil done as an action of power,  power to alter, control and arrange. We have power for good and evil.

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Moral behavior is a matter of practical and purposive action: its purpose is to make life better for ourselves and others.

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Is it not clear, you could say, that once someone is in such an awful situation the aim of moral thinking is to ‘ameliorate’ it, 

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and is that not done by having one corpse rather than ten? What can someone who refuses to shoot be thinking of?

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It is a characteristic feature of discussions of such examples that the dilemma is presented from the point of view of the one who might do the killing.

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That seems perfectly natural, for is it not his problem? However, he is not the only one in the situation who has a problem. 

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Everyone is caught up in the evil of it. The one who might be shot and the ten who might be saved must ask themselves what they hope for, and hopes, like actions, may be good or evil.

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Their problem is not whether at the end of the day there will be one dead or ten dead – that is not within their power. 

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It is, whether they may justifiably hope for and inwardly consent to the killing of another for themselves.

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One important question in this awful situation is “What OUGHT to be done?”, but of equal importance is how to characterize this situation and capture the evil in it.

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One crops at the end or ten? What could be the moral justification for the person, who is put in this situation?

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In a Kantian or deontological approach to morally evaluating acts of violence, one considers the principles one deems valid that would yield judgments about particular actions. 

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The actions are seen to have characteristics that make them wrong or right in themselves, regardless of their consequences. 

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For instance, it is inherently wrong to lie or deceive, even if doing so may on occasion have good results. 

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Similarly, acts of violence can often be judged to violate people’s rights and thus to be inherently wrong, or they can be acts of law enforcement and thereby often justified. 

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We can contrast this with a consequentialist approach to morality, of which utilitarianism is the leading example, in which actions in themselves are neither right nor wrong

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but are to be judged on the basis of their consequences. From this viewpoint, violence is often considered as unfortunate but necessary to enable to achieve a desirable outcome. 

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Whether the good consequences of a violent act outweigh the bad depends in our case on considerations such as how many people will die. 

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Our evaluations of these factors usually rest on empirical estimates, but that we cannot avoid acting on.

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This is a peculiar philosophical situation, for what is the answer to the question “Should he kill the one person or not?” What is evil here? What is immoral?

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Thank you…feel free to come up with questions or remarks. The floor is yours… ^_^

The Discussion

Max Chatnoir: What could be the moral justification for the person who has set up that situation?  Who or what is going to kill the 10 people?

herman Bergson: a firing squad , Max..

Rodney Handrick: As a soul we have our own journey to reconnect to the source.

Max Chatnoir: who is giving the orders to the firing squad.  why can't I just say, don't shoot?

CB Axel: So kill them all so they can reconnect to a source?

Rodney Handrick: It maybe the lesson that needs to be experienced by that particular soul.

CB Axel: Max, maybe it's the one person who's going to kill the ten. °͜°

Max Chatnoir: Ah, the one that I have to shoot?

herman Bergson: Have you seen the movie Fury?

Max Chatnoir: No.

Rodney Handrick: No

CB Axel: No.

herman Bergson: ok :-)

CB Axel: It was playing at the Second Cinema not long ago, but I didn't go.

herman Bergson: There is a similar situation....more or less

Rodney Handrick: don't go to movies much

herman Bergson: Is not a fun movie....

Max Chatnoir: Doesn't sound like it.

herman Bergson: But the problem here is....what to DO in this situation....

Rodney Handrick: synopsis of the movie...

herman Bergson: and is doing what you do evil or good?

CB Axel: It would depend on who all the people are.

herman Bergson: No...we leave out all circumstantial features

herman Bergson: it is about who is gonna be killed

CB Axel: If the one person was someone I cared deeply for and the 10 were Republican members of the US Congress, there would be no dilemma.

herman Bergson: lol

herman Bergson: The issue here is what is morality.....

Rodney Handrick: All people want the same...to live

Max Chatnoir: We've had multiple cases of people walking into schools or theaters and waving a gun around.  They pretty much always wind up shot.

herman Bergson: Is Kant right with his deontic approach or is the consequentialist right....?

Max Chatnoir: Or shoot themselves.  Unfortunately, they get it in the wrong order.

Rodney Handrick: They do that because it gives them a sense of godlike power

Max Chatnoir: I don't think that the shooters of the shooter are generally regarded as evil.  However there was one woman in a school case who actually managed to talk the shooter down.

Max Chatnoir: I thought that was pretty remarkable.

Rodney Handrick: Those individuals are cowards...

herman Bergson: Yes....

CB Axel: I think it's the consequences that matter.

herman Bergson: And here were have the issue of justiefied violence...

Rodney Handrick: They're looking for attention

CB Axel: It' not the body count, it's what will happen afterward that matters more.

herman Bergson: which is justified evil if you take violence toward any person as evil

herman Bergson: Can the person who is ordered to kil the innocent other person and thus save the other ten feel justified if he shoots?

herman Bergson: Can taking a human live ever be justiefied?

CB Axel: I think so, but he could also be justified in letting the 10 go.

Rodney Handrick: They always need a justification (ie dogma)

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): oops I forgot

Max Chatnoir: Hi, Beertje.

herman Bergson: But this reduces morality to a kind of quantitative administration, CB

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): soooo sorry

Rodney Handrick: Hi Beertje

CB Axel: Well, one reason I'm against the death penalty is that I wouldn't want to kill someone and don't feel it's right to ask someone else to do the killing for me.

herman Bergson: Hi Beertje :-)

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Goodevening Herman Max and Rodney

CB Axel: Hi, Beertje.

Rodney Handrick: I don't have that problem

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hi CB:)

herman Bergson: Indeed CB...that was on my mind to...the death penalty debate

Max Chatnoir: There you have a person who has already been taken out of social circulation, and who is threatening nobody.

CB Axel: I'm actually in a position where I could start and IV and infuse lethal drugs, but I wouldn't do that job.

Rodney Handrick: I don't have a problem with the death penalty.

CB Axel: *start an IV

Max Chatnoir: I do, if only because the legal system sometimes gets it wrong.

CB Axel: Well, I also feel that life in prison is a worse fate than death.

herman Bergson: I'd think so too CB

Max Chatnoir: I would agree.

Rodney Handrick: Getting it wrong has been going on for centuries.

herman Bergson: Getting wrong what, Rodney?

Max Chatnoir: No doubt. But once the guy is dead, you can't apologize.

CB Axel: A death sentence, Herman.

Rodney Handrick: death penalty judgments

herman Bergson: If that is the case then you never should apply a death sentence, I would say

Rodney Handrick: You don't apologize...you make sure you get it right before it reaches that point!

CB Axel: People have died in prison waiting to appeal their case.

Rodney Handrick: this is true CB

herman Bergson: Well..the basic question is.....Is taking a human life ever justifiable yes or no...

Max Chatnoir: Well, I don't think I expect either police or the justice system to be infallible.

CB Axel: Getting it right isn't always easy.

Rodney Handrick: Yes and NO

Rodney Handrick: That's the challenge CB

herman Bergson: unfortunately, that answer doesn’t apply in a philosophy class, Rodney :-)))

Rodney Handrick: It's "hard" work!

herman Bergson: Something can not be true and false at the same time

herman Bergson: So we HAVE to choose...

herman Bergson: And that is so amazing in the human condition here....

Rodney Handrick: And that is the lesson...free will - choice!

herman Bergson: If we adopt the rule that you NEVER kill a fellowman....and when you do it is evil...all is clear

CB Axel: Either way you go with our 1 vs 10 question, you will have had a hand in someone's death. It's just that the you would have one more degree of separation with the death of the 10 than you would with the 1.

herman Bergson: If you say....there are situations where you have to kill....in war for instance....self defense...we have a problem....

herman Bergson: Yes CB...the idea that ten deaths is a greater evil than one death....

Rodney Handrick: I was CB...Vietnam - desert storm

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): how great is that evil is that one death is your child?

herman Bergson: I think we reach here the limits of our mind....

Max Chatnoir: I think that part of the reason so many people come back with PTSD is the stress of making that kind of decision.

herman Bergson: I think so too, Max....

CB Axel: I think you're right, Max.

herman Bergson: because we have no answer to the question actually

Rodney Handrick: I think the problem is we have to connect to our "higher" selves to understand

herman Bergson: But situations force you to an answer based on your own will to survive...

CB Axel: What if I don't have a higher self?

herman Bergson: I don’t have one too, Rodney :-)

herman Bergson: Wouldn't have the slightest idea what and where to look for

herman Bergson: or even how to look....with what sensses?

Rodney Handrick: I think the Zen Buddhist would know...

herman Bergson: I guess I leave you pondering about this issue...:-)

herman Bergson: Here we won't come up with a definite answer...

CB Axel: It's an old conundrum and no one has ever come up with a definitive answer.

CB Axel: I doubt we ever would.

Max Chatnoir: I honestly don't know whether failing to act would be worse than acting in the situation you describe.  It's the kind of decision that people in the police or the miliatry have to make frequently.

herman Bergson: But the dreadful question still stand...should he kill the one person or not...

Max Chatnoir: Well, you could say "Hey, I didn't start this," and just bow out.

herman Bergson: yes Max....a terrible condition...

Max Chatnoir: or you could say, Please don't do that because I'd rather not have to kill you.

Rodney Handrick: It's the same problem as eating...animal /vegetable both forms of life.

Max Chatnoir: Or you could just shoot and sort it out later.

CB Axel: You could always just turn the gun on yourself.

Rodney Handrick: Max and CB - both true

Max Chatnoir: I'm not sure that solves the moral question, CB.  Just another way of taking yourself out of the situation.

herman Bergson: Doesn’t change the question, CB...you still take a human life

CB Axel: If I had come here in my mouse avatar that would change THAT argument. LOL

herman Bergson: Same problem as euthanasia...

Rodney Handrick: I still go back to the issue of the individual soul and the lessons that needs to be experienced

herman Bergson: But that assumes a lot of metaphysics, Rodney....

herman Bergson: More a kind of religious approach

Rodney Handrick: Yes CB I would tyre to takeout the Rat...lol

Max Chatnoir: Is killing something that needs to be experienced?

Rodney Handrick: True Herman

herman Bergson: Yes CB..live in SL is much easier that in RL :-))

herman Bergson: Here I take morals now and then too with a wink

Max Chatnoir: I've hit dogs while driving a couple of times because I wasn't quick enough to avoid them.  That was bad enough.

Rodney Handrick: Yes Max...go on a hunt for wild game.

herman Bergson: Difficult issue Rodney.....

herman Bergson: killing human being in contrast with killing animals....

herman Bergson: Here again it is about basic choises...

Rodney Handrick: Can't help you there Max...you have to provide an answer to the dog god...lol

Max Chatnoir: Oh, I still think those Chinese millionaires that make dog food out of their expensive pets when they get bored are doing evil.

Max Chatnoir: And serial killers often begin by killing animals.

Rodney Handrick: I agree Max

herman Bergson: Yes Max.....general respect for life....

Max Chatnoir: Hunting for food is a different issue.  I'm not a vegetarian and I don't go out and slaughter my own cows.

CB Axel: But I've known plenty of huntsmen who would not kill a person.

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): do you eat meat Max?

Rodney Handrick: Good guard dogs

Max Chatnoir: If I had to slaughter my own animals, I would probably have to become a vegetarian, so I let somebody else take that hit for me.  I do recognize that I'm just dodging the issue.

Rodney Handrick: Yes you are Max

herman Bergson: I think it is time to end our discussion here....

herman Bergson: You got enough to think about, I'd say :-)

CB Axel: I eat meat. I don't hunt. But that has more to do with not wanting to go slogging through the woods at dawn in the cold than with not wanting to kill for food.

herman Bergson: So, thank you all again :-)

CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. Good discussion!

Rodney Handrick: In a real survival situation the will to survive cause us to reevaluate our views.

herman Bergson: yes, Rodney...

Max Chatnoir: I can well believe that, and if somebody were coming at me with a machete, I would probably shoot back.

Rodney Handrick: That applies to both human and animal

Max Chatnoir: Or some really sharp teeth.

herman Bergson: Well...thank you all again....class dismissed :-)

Rodney Handrick: Thanks Herman

Max Chatnoir: Thank you, Herman.

Max Chatnoir: I always enjoy these discussions.

CB Axel: I'll be looking forward to that picture you took of me, Herman. °͜°

Max Chatnoir: I will see you all next week.

herman Bergson: You will be surprised CB :-))

CB Axel: See you all next week.

Max Chatnoir: I need to go see what my student is up to.  :-)

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): excuses for being late tonight...i have to read the blg I guess

CB Axel: Beertje, did you make that dress?

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes CB i did

CB Axel: Wow! That's gorgeous.

Rodney Handrick: Well, I guess if I stop over for a meal...can't count on steak and potatoes...:-)

herman Bergson: She is gooooooooood, CB!

CB Axel: OK. See you next week.

Rodney Handrick: where's the photo?

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol..Herman looks thru pink glasses...

herman Bergson: Nice you dropped in Rodney :-))

Rodney Handrick: Thanks Herman

Rodney Handrick: Bye all

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): goodnight ㋡

herman Bergson: By eRodney

herman Bergson: ok...op naar de beta grid

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ok