613: No free will....

During the Enlightenment the rationale for determinism was shifting from theological or religious determinism back to the physical/causal determinism of the Greek cosmologists and atomists. 

Leibniz (1646 - 1716) imagined a scientist who could see the events of all times, just as all times are thought to be present to the mind of God.

-QUOTE- “Everything proceeds mathematically .. .if someone could have a sufficient insight into the inner parts of things,

and in addition had remembrance and intelligence enough to consider all the circumstances and take them into account, be would be a prophet and see the future in the present as in a mirror.” -END QUOTE-

The French scientist and mathematician Pierre-Simon Laplace (1749- 1827) went one step further. his words are remembered as “Laplace’s Demon”:

- QUOTE - "We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. 

An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, 

if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; 

for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes." (Essai philosophique sur les probabilités, 1814) -END QUOTE -

The first statement is the killer here:”We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. “

Everything that happens is part of an enormous causal chain. If we were able to know all causal relations, we could predict the future.

However, this predictability is not our greatest worry. When determinism is true, the future would be inevitable, that is, there exists only one possible future, which makes free will an elusion.

The contemporary American philosopher Peter van Inwagen (1942) has summed up the challenge of determinism to free will thus:

If determinism is true, he says, then our acts are the consequence of laws of nature and events in the remote past.

Since it is not up to us what went on before we were born,and neither it is up to us what the laws of nature are,

it would therefore follow that the consequences of these things, including our present acts, are not up to us.

And it just seems obvious that we can not be responsible  for what is not up to us. And that  is what freedom of will implies: the responsibility of our actions.

If all this reasoning holds and all these philosophical observations are right, then we apparently live in the only possible world, which finds its origin in the Big Bang.

No freedom of will. We are just the result of universal causality, if you may believe these philosophers. An interesting observation.

But at the root of our problem is not so much the issue of determinism. The root of scientific scepticism about free will is materialism.

So, in fact is our question: can we be a materialist and yet assume the existence of freedom of will?

Thank you all again…. It is your turn now…. ^_^

The Discussion

[13:19] CB Axel: That's what I've been saying all along.

[13:19] herman Bergson: and that is...?

[13:19] druth Vlodovic: and you couldn't have done anything else

[13:19] herman Bergson: CB?

[13:19] CB Axel: The big bang set everything in motion and every electrical impulse going through our brains are the result of everything that happened then.

[13:20] herman Bergson: You mean all that is happening is already determined from the moment of the big Bang, CB?

[13:20] CB Axel: Yep

[13:20] druth Vlodovic: mind you this also obviates God from responsibility for our fates, so there is no one to blame

[13:21] CB Axel: We're all off the hook.

[13:21] herman Bergson: But isnt tha counter intuitive?

[13:21] CB Axel: Our lives can be blamed on physics.

[13:21] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but would that already had determined that for ex i would have gone playing floor-ball with my friends before today?

[13:21] CB Axel: How so?

[13:21] CB Axel: Yes, Bejiita.

[13:22] herman Bergson: so we are just cogs in a machien, CB?

[13:22] CB Axel: Or accidents of nature.

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but how can you determine from start sort of infinite events for billions and billions of things including us from the beginning of time?

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sounds impossible

[13:23] herman Bergson: no...no accidents for that assumes randomness...

[13:23] CB Axel: We can't. That's why we think we have free will.

[13:23] druth Vlodovic: you roll the snowball down the hill, you can't know where it will go but it's path is predetermined from the moment you let go regardless

[13:23] herman Bergson: so...free will is an illusion, CB?

[13:23] CB Axel: Yes

[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is correct

[13:24] CB Axel: And yes, druth.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): the speed and direction and the surface it rolls on plus the incline and so

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that is logical

[13:24] herman Bergson: Ahh..ok....then why don't you sit back and do nothing from now on?

[13:24] herman Bergson: why should you....

[13:24] druth Vlodovic: boring

[13:24] CB Axel: I've been considering it.

[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that can be determined mathematically

[13:24] herman Bergson: all is determined...

[13:25] CB Axel: But apparently, it has been determined that eventually I'll get hungry.

[13:25] herman Bergson: CB might say...

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but our own actions? can they be determined like that from start? Everyone of them

[13:25] druth Vlodovic: the creatures that decided to do that died out, we are what is left, so far...

[13:25] herman Bergson: I could lean back indeed...

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like a prerecorded videotape

[13:25] herman Bergson: because you say so...

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): it is an interesting idea for sure

[13:25] herman Bergson: for that is allinthe causal chain of events in my life

[13:26] herman Bergson: so from now on CB is glued to her chair :-)

[13:26] CB Axel: All the decisions we make in life come from the chemical changes in our brains. And those changes are made by changes that came before.

[13:26] druth Vlodovic: well, then we start looking for butterflies, things or forces from outside the universe that might create variation

[13:27] herman Bergson: ahhhhCB....!!!

[13:27] herman Bergson: Ionly have one question for you.....

[13:27] CB Axel: I won't necessarily not move. I can't know for certain what I will do because I don't know how the changes will occur.

[13:27] herman Bergson: WHAT set those chancel changes in your brain into action???

[13:28] CB Axel: Everything that has gone before.

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but if I do like this now?

[13:28] CB Axel: That has been predetermined. °͜°

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): this i came up with just some seconds ago now

[13:29] CB Axel: So you think.

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): still predetermined?

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): that i would dance

[13:29] CB Axel: Yes

[13:29] herman Bergson: THAT Bejiita is the result of what all has gone before in your (S)Life,,,it seems

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and the attack at Zaveltem?....

[13:29] druth Vlodovic: yes,it is the result of how your personality reacts to the ideas,combined with your current understanding of available resources

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): interesting idea as said

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm to some degree at least i d say

[13:30] druth Vlodovic: not really

[13:30] druth Vlodovic: I'm afraid that leaving the argument there seems to end it, nothing else to say, that I can imagine

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lot of things go together to create our actions

[13:30] CB Axel: Unless there are other universes that were created by something other than our big bang acting upon our universe, it's all just physics.

[13:31] herman Bergson: INteresting....

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so the terrosrists can't help it? it it just determined?

[13:31] CB Axel: I'm willing to accept other universes out there messing with us. °͜°

[13:31] druth Vlodovic: other than refutations has anyone said anything more about that?

[13:32] CB Axel: Have I stunned you all into silence?

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:32] CB Axel: Or have you given up all hope?

[13:32] herman Bergson: complicated discussion....:-)

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe complicated but interesting concept

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but it for sure make my head spin faster the the LHC beams

[13:33] CB Axel: Poor Bejiita. I feel like I've been attacking him with science.

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hhe

[13:33] herman Bergson: if youbeliev ein absolute determinism we aren't persons here..just actining machines

[13:33] CB Axel: Or what passes for science in my feeble, but pre-determined brain. LOL

[13:33] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed, we would be like pre programmed robots then if this is determinism

[13:33] CB Axel: Not machines. That implies a builder of the machine.

[13:34] herman Bergson: Indeed CB....

[13:34] CB Axel: More like atoms in the air wafted by breezes caused by the heat of the sun.

[13:34] herman Bergson: so ..where to start?

[13:34] herman Bergson: any suggestions about their origin, CB?

[13:35] CB Axel: Whatever caused the big bang.

[13:35] CB Axel: Chuck Lorre? LOL

[13:35] herman Bergson: Deosnt work...

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:35] herman Bergson: the Big BAng theory is a product of the human brain only

[13:35] CB Axel: He created the TV show The Big Bang Theory.

[13:35] herman Bergson: not an empircal fact

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): someone with a heck of lust for dynamite it have to be for sure!

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:35] CB Axel: Oh, crap. Herman. You got me there.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:36] CB Axel: Well played, sir. °͜°

[13:36] CB Axel: You may have saved free will.

[13:36] herman Bergson: Thank you CB :-)

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:36] herman Bergson: Maybe I have....

[13:36] CB Axel: LMAO

[13:36] herman Bergson: for that willbe our next target....

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahahaha

[13:36] CB Axel: I love these discussions and the things they make me think about.

[13:37] herman Bergson: saving ourselves from determinism :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its awesome!

[13:37] CB Axel: Cool!

[13:37] herman Bergson: Guess we all got the picture now :-)

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): sort of

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:37] CB Axel: I'm not trying to mess with you here. This is just something I've been thinking about since we started on free will.

[13:37] herman Bergson: so..thank you all again...:-)

[13:37] CB Axel: Thank you for indulging me, Herman.

[13:38] Guestboook van tipjar stand: CB Axel donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!

[13:38] herman Bergson: Love it CB :-)

[13:38] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ...^_^

612: A conceptual hornet’s nest....

How did we happen to run into this conceptual hornet’s nest, while investigating the concept of free will?

Free will, determinism, indeterminism, causality, necessity

Let’s retrace our steps a little. Our primary question in this project was about this typical Western phenomenon Individualism.

So, we try to get clear what makes a person to an individual. One of the important observations was, that we can say,

that to be an individual at least means “Freedom from…” and “Freedom to…”

Freedom from means that we are free from any external constraint in our actions. We are free to go where we want.

Next to that the individual has the freedom to think and say, whatever he wants. Free to desire whatever he likes.

However, this freedom does not come alone. Every action we take has its consequences 

and since we do not life on an uninhabited island, our actions will affect other. These others could disagree with our actions.

Thence freedom inevitably implies responsibility, which means we have to justify our actions to others.

Within this context we are free in our actions. next question is, where do our actions come from? One answer could be:

they emerge from our emotions, our desires and fears or biological and physical needs. And here I get the feeling,

that motivations somewhere in the history of philosophical debate were subsumed in the term WILL.

Something like, whether it is emotion or physical need that drives you, you just WANT it, which means that as an individual you have a faculty to WANT = THE WILL.

So, the Will is the cause of our actions. Actually we run into a classic philosophical pattern. Like we have a question like “…and who created god?…”

.

We now have to face the question: what drives the Will, what makes the will want. Step two is then: is this Will FREE to want what it wants or not?

In this context the first paragraph of the article of Moritz Schlick (1936) is fascinating and motivating to continue this project:

-QUOTE- With hesitation and reluctance I prepare to add this chapter to the discussion of ethical problems. 

For in it I must speak of a matter which, even at present, is thought to be a fundamental ethical question, 

but which got into ethics and has become a much discussed problem only because of a misunderstanding. 

This is the so-called problem of the freedom of the will. Moreover, this pseudo-problem has long since been settled by the efforts of certain sensible persons; 

and, above all, the state of affairs just described has been often disclosed — with exceptional clarity by Hume. 

Hence it is really one of the greatest scandals of philosophy that again and again so much paper and printer's ink is devoted to this matter, 

to say nothing of the expenditure of thought, which could have been applied to more important problems (assuming that it would have sufficed for these). 

Thus I should truly be ashamed to write a chapter on "freedom." In the chapter heading, the word "responsible" indicates 

what concerns ethics, and designates the point at which misunderstanding arises. 

Therefore the concept of responsibility constitutes our theme, and if in the process of its clarification I also must speak of the concept of freedom 

I shall, of course, say only what others have already said better; 

consoling myself with the thought that in this way alone can anything be done to put an end at last to that scandal.-END QUOT-

I agree… thank you for your attention…the floor is yours… ^_^

The discussion

[13:21] Zevio Droz: we can speak?

[13:21] herman Bergson: as I said :-)

[13:22] Zevio Droz: ok

[13:22] herman Bergson: the floor is yours now :-)

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm interesting ideas there indeed

[13:22] Zevio Droz: Within this context we are free in our actions. next question is, where do our actions come from? One answer could be:

[13:15] .: .

[13:15] .: they emerge from our emotions, our desires and fears or biological and physical needs. And here I get the feeling,

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): need o absorb his meaning

[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): I do anyway

[13:23] Zevio Droz: are those the only options?

[13:23] herman Bergson: You always may suggest other sources Zevio

[13:24] Zevio Droz: ok

[13:24] Zevio Droz: well the question is "where does thought come from?"

[13:24] Zevio Droz: because they are our signals about what we desire

[13:24] herman Bergson: from the working of the brain....I'd say

[13:24] Zevio Droz: how do you know?

[13:25] herman Bergson: simple...knock out the brain and there are no thoughts

[13:25] herman Bergson: empirical finding

[13:25] Zevio Droz: not always the case

[13:25] herman Bergson: I have no data on that Zevio

[13:26] Zevio Droz: there have been many cases of people who have had a malfunctioning brain upon cardiac arrest

[13:26] Zevio Droz: and have had thoughts but we don’t have proof when the thoughts came

[13:26] Zevio Droz: before or after the brain malfunctions

[13:26] Zevio Droz: if you research NDE or near death experiences there's more information on that

[13:26] Zevio Droz: there was a guy named eben alexander

[13:27] herman Bergson: I don't think that doesn't change the picture, for such people only talked about thought after their recovery

[13:27] herman Bergson: So no proof where the thoughts came from

[13:27] Zevio Droz: i agree

[13:27] Zevio Droz: only speculation

[13:27] herman Bergson: In philosophy we do not speculate...we try to analyse and understand

[13:27] Zevio Droz: yes

[13:28] Zevio Droz: but at this point we don’t know where thoughts come from

[13:28] Zevio Droz: we are speculating based on inference that they come from the brain

[13:28] herman Bergson: we do...the brain....

[13:28] herman Bergson: no brain ..no thoughts..simple as that

[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that part is certainly so

[13:28] herman Bergson: not a single dead person ever has told us his thoughts

[13:29] herman Bergson: But we are discussing here free will :-)

[13:29] herman Bergson: and the question now whether it is a pseudo-concept...

[13:29] Zevio Droz: well if we go on the vein that thoughts are certainly generated from the brain the question is is that an act of will or not?

[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): interesting

[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:30] herman Bergson: no....as I showed in this lecture :-)

[13:30] herman Bergson: The will might be a pseudo concept

[13:31] herman Bergson: hijacked by philosophers because of its simplicity

[13:31] Zevio Droz: well if you say to yourself with your conscience "i'm going to think this thought 'my name is _____"

[13:31] Zevio Droz: we have the will to do that

[13:31] herman Bergson: no...we have the desire to do that for some reason :-)

[13:32] herman Bergson: or the emotional need to do so...

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): we are affected by our interests and external inputs

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): which affect what we want

[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): id say it works some think like that

[13:32] herman Bergson: for instance, Bejiita

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is hard for me to see free will as a pseudo concept after having been taught about it very differently all my life

[13:32] herman Bergson: we do not need the concept of Will at all

[13:32] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i will have to consider that

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it changes a whole way of thinking doesn’t it

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): basically

[13:33] Zevio Droz: would you say herman that there is a difference between lifting your arm as an act resulting from a desire and having your arm lift up as a twitch like reaction?

[13:33] herman Bergson: In a way Gemma.....

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i would say yes zevio

[13:33] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): or having a muscle spasm

[13:34] herman Bergson: The problem is that this Will is almost a kind of homunculus inside you what directs your actions....

[13:34] herman Bergson: Of course there is a physiological difference Zevio...

[13:35] herman Bergson: the use of voluntary muscles and the action of involuntary nerve action

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you cant control the later one

[13:35] Zevio Droz: so where do our actions come from then herman? what is the cause of them in your view?

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but you can the first

[13:35] herman Bergson: as I said.....

[13:36] herman Bergson: from things we call emotions, desires, fears , biological needs

[13:37] Zevio Droz: so these things control us and there is an illusion that we're creating actions

[13:37] Zevio Droz: what is your proof for that statement though?

[13:37] herman Bergson: the whole determinism/indeterminism debate might show eventually to be just a debate on words

[13:37] herman Bergson: My proof...?

[13:37] herman Bergson: Simple.....

[13:38] herman Bergson: I can hold a glowing piece of iron in front of your face and close in on your eyes....

[13:38] herman Bergson: Just imagine what would drive you to act?

[13:38] herman Bergson: the emotion of fear

[13:38] Zevio Droz: impulse because of perceived danger

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:39] herman Bergson: other way of saying the same thing

[13:39] Zevio Droz: how do you know that there isn't a self that operates in the unconscious as opposed to the emotions and such themselves being the prime controller?

[13:40] herman Bergson: Hold on....!

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like an entity in the brain?

[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:40] herman Bergson: Here is introduced a concept invented by Freud...the unconscious.....

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like an operator in a control room to LHC or a nuclear plant where we are LHC or the nuclear plant?

[13:40] herman Bergson: this moves the discussion to a whole other chapter...

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and that operator then decide our action?

[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:41] herman Bergson: that means...off track :-))

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): dont think we are remote controlled

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I don’t feel like that anyway

[13:42] herman Bergson: what we are discussing is the question whether the concept of The WIll  is referring to some empirical quality of th individual or whether it is  a pseudo concept

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): I think its my inside interests and personality together with input through my senses that control my will in total

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a sum of those factors

[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it will take me a while to go with that theory

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita ..another way you follow your desires and needs

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): exactly

[13:44] herman Bergson: Sounds like a good conclusion for today ^_^

[13:44] Zevio Droz: what if your brain isn’t the generator of thoughts but an instrument of which thoughts communicate with the body?

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for ex i decide now that during easter i will eat LOT of eggs

[13:44] Zevio Droz: kk

[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): are there many others that agree with Hume??

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but thats something i always want every easter

[13:44] herman Bergson: Ahhh Zevio...nice one...:-)

[13:44] herman Bergson: and where do these thought then come from?

[13:44] CB Axel: If the brain doesn't generate thoughts, what does? Aliens?

[13:45] Zevio Droz: science hasn't discovered it yet perhaps

[13:45] CB Axel: Some god?

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): medical issues seem to show that

[13:45] herman Bergson: Same question here Gemma :-))

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh ok

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm this gets complex!

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol

[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very

[13:46] herman Bergson: Such arguments are not valid in a philosophy class Zevio....speculation

[13:46] Zevio Droz: its also speculation that the brain generates thought

[13:46] Zevio Droz: they havent found the modules that do so

[13:46] Zevio Droz: have they?

[13:46] herman Bergson: No it is not...it is an empirical fact

[13:46] Zevio Droz: so how does it do it?

[13:47] herman Bergson: Oh they have found a lot of correlations between brain activity and certain emotions, motoric action, visual perception....a lot

[13:47] herman Bergson: neuroscience is highly developed these days

[13:48] herman Bergson: but I say....correlations....

[13:48] Zevio Droz: yes but the immaterial voice in our minds is not a physical thing and is unaccounted for

[13:48] Zevio Droz: they don’t know how the conscience exists

[13:48] herman Bergson: they do not indeed Zevio...

[13:48] herman Bergson: It is one of the great mysteries indeed

[13:49] herman Bergson: but WHAT we know is...no bran ...no consciousness...simple as that

[13:49] herman Bergson: and that is a good start to begin the research :-)

[13:49] Zevio Droz: look up near death experiences if you want to see a challenge to that view

[13:49] Zevio Droz: it's a phenomenon recognised by science

[13:50] herman Bergson: Yes and also explained and reproducible....by oxygen deprivation of the brain

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes true

[13:50] Zevio Droz: no, they have studied brains and oxygen levels are not lower

[13:50] CB Axel: Yes. A hallucination brought on by hypoxia.

[13:50] Zevio Droz: but you can get hypoxia

[13:50] herman Bergson: nothing mystical about that phenomenon at all

[13:50] Zevio Droz: and it does cause hallucination

[13:50] Zevio Droz: NDE isn’t explained by hypoxia though

[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): science has lots of work ahead of it

[13:51] Zevio Droz: yes

[13:51] herman Bergson: oh yes....but that is not so impressive...just a physiological consequence of the condition of the person

[13:51] Zevio Droz: i've yet to see a physical explanation that can account for an NDE, the most convincing one I’ve read is rem intrusion

[13:52] Zevio Droz: which is that your dreaming brain is asleep and awake at the same time at the moment of death

[13:52] CB Axel: That's an interesting explanation.

[13:52] Zevio Droz: but science hasn't discovered the true cause yet and proven it.  if it has, i haven't come across it

[13:52] herman Bergson: And what does this condition tell us?

[13:53] herman Bergson: What is the big deal here?

[13:53] Zevio Droz: it tells us that people have experiences seemingly while pronounced clinically dead

[13:53] Zevio Droz: and we don’t know why yet

[13:53] herman Bergson: We have animals who make one half of their brain asleep while the other half is awake, for instance

[13:54] herman Bergson: Ohh...you mean the Locked  - in syndrome?

[13:54] herman Bergson: coma patients that are yet still aware of what is going around , hear and understand people at their bedside?

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: my free will is to come back next week :-) thank you herman & class

[13:55] herman Bergson: Must be horrible indeed, but it happens

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok bergie

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Gute Nacht Bergie

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu Bergie

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)

[13:55] bergfrau Apfelbaum: .... i have to go :-/ .....byebye´s see you next week

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i have to go very  soon too

[13:55] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes I ve heard about that too

[13:55] Zevio Droz: thanks herman

[13:55] Zevio Droz: it was enjoyable

[13:55] CB Axel: Saying that this happens to the clinically dead depends on your definition of death. The brain can live for a few minutes after the heart stops.

[13:55] herman Bergson: Ok friends....:-)

[13:55] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:56] herman Bergson: Was a great discussion again.....

[13:56] bergfrau Apfelbaum: and happy easter:-)

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): same

[13:56] herman Bergson: Thank you Zevio for your stimulating input too :-)

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): eat LOTS of eggs now!

[13:56] CB Axel: OK. I need to eat something, or my brain will get angry. °͜°

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ohoh

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): not that

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): hope to be here tuesday

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu all

[13:56] herman Bergson: SO ...again thank you all....class dismissed...^_^

[13:56] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if possible

[13:56] CB Axel: Bye, all. See you next week.

[13:56] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye

611: A cancellled Lecture...

Last Thursday I have done something, I never have done in all these years and hundred of lectures: I canceled a lecture.

  

I did not just cancel a lecture due to RL obligations. 

That has happened before. No, I canceled the lecture, because I really had nothing to tell you.

Let me explain. I had planned to discuss the ideas of Descartes and perhaps Spinoza too on free will in that Thursday lecture.

But while studying the literature I began to feel uneasy. What I was reading was so hollow, just words.

   

And when I read the words of John Locke I realised what was bothering me.

Locke says in “Essay Concerning Human Understanding”, Book II, Chapter XXI,Section 21 Of Power 

”To return, then, to the inquiry about liberty, I think the question is not proper, whether the will be free, but whether a man be free."

And Locke knew that language like "free will is incompatible with determinism" was itself the source of philosophical errors. 

”This way of talking, nevertheless, has prevailed, and, as I guess, produced great confusion." -end quote-

And the final confirmation came, when I discovered that Moritz Schlick in 1936 wrote an essay with the title “The Pseudo-Problem of Freedom of Will”.

We take words so easily for granted and then we start playing with them and press them in the maze of Logic.

Let me give you an example. So far we have seen that we love the dichotomy of determinism / indeterminism.

Logically there is no third option: something is determined by whatever you like, laws of physics, circumstances, restrains,

or something is undetermined, which means it has to be totally random and unpredictable. 

Once we have developed these two concepts we go and apply them to everything. That is what philosophers like to do.

Newton concluded that the way a stone falls is not something random. You can definitely predict is speed of falling and the location where it will hit the ground.

Very deterministic world. Thus we developed physical science by assuming this determinism in physical events.

Of course a philosopher will wonder: is maybe everything determined in this world ……. me too, I mean whatever I do?

And here it begins. We are immediately hit by huge concepts like causality and necessity and with the question what determinism actually means.

This question looks simple. Answer: Determinism is the philosophical position that for every event, including human interactions, there exist conditions that could cause no other event.

But then this quote: "There are many determinisms, depending on what pre-conditions are considered to be determinative of an event or action."

Ok! The source of this quote is even more telling: “Free Will: The Scandal in Philosophy” by Bob Doyle (2011)

.

As you see, it isn’t surprising at all that I have gotten serious doubts about this whole Free Will debate. We certainly have to dig deeper into the matter.

Ludwig Wittgenstein had convinced Schlick and his Vienna Circle of logical positivists/empiricists that philosophical problems could not be solved, only dis-solved, by careful attention to the use of language.

So, following John Locke’s observation, we first have to clear up the “great confusion” which I ran into during my research on this subject  of Free Will.

Thank you…the floor is yours… ^_^

The discussion

[13:20] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think the definition of "scandal" in the philosophy world is verrrrry different.

[13:20] Velvet (velvet.braham): lol

[13:20] CB Axel: I think there can be something between determinism and outright random indeterminism.

[13:21] herman Bergson: Yes CB, but first we have to decide on WHAT determinism means

[13:21] herman Bergson: to what it applies...

[13:21] herman Bergson: and why...

[13:21] Velvet (velvet.braham): there is no way an outcome is totally random or totally controlled.

[13:21] Velvet (velvet.braham): it's both

[13:21] herman Bergson: Oh don't say that Velvet....

[13:22] CB Axel: Well, the laws of physics determine many things.

[13:22] Velvet (velvet.braham): why not?

[13:22] herman Bergson: They willslap you with big words like Quantum Mechanics...:-)

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:22] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:22] Velvet (velvet.braham): There is real time and there is jazz time

[13:22] CB Axel: °͜°

[13:22] Velvet (velvet.braham): and both are valid

[13:22] herman Bergson: and Quantum time!

[13:22] Velvet (velvet.braham): and yet they conflict

[13:23] Velvet (velvet.braham): there ya go!

[13:23] herman Bergson: Well...what happened to me was ...

[13:23] herman Bergson: that I was thrown back into my philosophical cradle :-)

[13:24] herman Bergson: Analytical philosophy....philosophy of language....

[13:24] herman Bergson: I was reading some literature and thought...what do all these words MEAN!

[13:25] herman Bergson: determinism, causality...necessity....

[13:25] herman Bergson: just take the word WILL

[13:25] herman Bergson: We all seem to have a WILL.....

[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yep

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): maybe probability is a better word

[13:25] herman Bergson: We have a mind, feelings and a will too...

[13:26] herman Bergson: But what is that will? A thing? a force an kind of mental muscle

[13:26] herman Bergson: something that has a will of its own?

[13:26] herman Bergson: Can a will will something for instance

[13:27] herman Bergson: or can a will only will other things?

[13:27] herman Bergson: or is it a nonsense word.....

[13:27] Velvet (velvet.braham): that sounds like the same thing

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): will is not an entity, its just what you want to do

[13:28] herman Bergson: A complete wrong description of the functioning of our mind?

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): and you tend to do what you want most

[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): for example today i felt for playing floor-ball with some friends, so i went and did that for some hours

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): no, it's a great description. We will things into being all the time.

[13:28] herman Bergson: But in that way we do not need that word at all Bejiita

[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok

[13:29] herman Bergson: We can just talk about what we are determined to do

[13:29] herman Bergson: and analyze what causes our determination

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): If you believe in determinism.

[13:30] herman Bergson: That's the next station Velvet...

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): then you have limited the discussion by your belief.

[13:30] herman Bergson: Where does determinism come from.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: it is the basis of materialist thinking....

[13:31] herman Bergson: if there is only matter ...only the laws of physics apply...which are fixed in their workings

[13:31] herman Bergson: and in my opinion here it goes wrong philosophically

[13:32] herman Bergson: they claim that in fact everything is caused.....

[13:32] herman Bergson: and they point at the material world....

[13:32] herman Bergson: and there it seems to be the cas eindeed....

[13:33] herman Bergson: then they say....our body....brain is matter too...so...also there everything has a physical cause...

[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): that seems to only delineate boundaries, not outcomes

[13:33] herman Bergson: is determined by laws of nature.....

[13:34] herman Bergson: but what is constantly overlook is that we havent the slightest idea where our mind comes from....except that it can not exist without the brain

[13:34] herman Bergson: I am not pleading for Cartesian dualism here....

[13:35] CB Axel: If mind cannot exist without a brain, explain American politicians to me. °͜°

[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahaha true!

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): Axel for the win.

[13:35] herman Bergson: on the contrary...the brain in some way generates  , makes the mind emerge

[13:35] CB Axel: So I am because I think?

[13:35] herman Bergson: ahh American politicians.....

[13:36] Velvet (velvet.braham): reverse Descartes

[13:36] CB Axel: Or I am therefore I think.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): aka sewage pipes, at least some of them

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): like Trump

[13:36] herman Bergson: I think the answer is quite simple CB.....they have no brains

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): he is a no brainer for sure

[13:36] CB Axel: I'm sorry I brought it up. °͜°

[13:36] Velvet (velvet.braham): amen.

[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:36] Velvet (velvet.braham): let's call American politics an outlier

[13:36] herman Bergson: Just as a sidetrack.....

[13:36] Velvet (velvet.braham): outlier

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): a special case where normal physical and chemical laws dont apply

[13:37] herman Bergson: Trump has reached place 10 on the list of possible threats to this world

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:37] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): i heard 6 before

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): and I'm American. It's ridiculous.

[13:37] herman Bergson: Global warming is one of them too...

[13:37] CB Axel: So instead of Descartes, we should be saying because I exist and have a brain, I think. Thinking doesn't make me so. Existence as a human being makes me think.

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): I'm with Axel on this one.

[13:38] herman Bergson: Sounds correct, CB

[13:38] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): Why try to separate the two?

[13:38] herman Bergson: I exist as homo sapiens so I think

[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): some of us are better at thinking than others,  but we all think.

[13:39] herman Bergson: like I walk, eat, dance and sing...I also think

[13:39] CB Axel is waiting to hear Herman sing. °͜°

[13:39] herman Bergson: some are better in running too...like Daphne Schippers :-)

[13:39] herman Bergson smiles

[13:40] herman Bergson: When the moonlight is right I'll sing for you CB :-)

[13:40] CB Axel: I bet I sing like Dapphne Schippers. LOL

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): I love this class.

[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)

[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me too

[13:40] herman Bergson: I love Beertje :-)))

[13:40] herman Bergson: Love you too Bejiita :-))

[13:41] herman Bergson: and all of you :-)

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ㋡

[13:41] herman Bergson: Looks like a Flower Power ending of our session today :-)

[13:41] CB Axel: LOL

[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): yes, but has it been determined that we love each other?

[13:41] herman Bergson: so thank you all for participating again ...:-)

[13:41] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we need it today

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): or have we chosen to love each other?

[13:42] herman Bergson: It was an act of free will Velvet...:-))

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well thats a nice choice indeed

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): I agree

[13:42] herman Bergson: Class dismissed :-))

[13:42] CB Axel: Sometimes love, like shit, happens. °͜°

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): Axel for the win, again!

[13:42] herman Bergson: so true CB :-)

[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): a sparkel of sun

[13:42] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it was a dark black day today, we needed a bit of sun

[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): indeed.

[13:43] CB Axel nods

[13:43] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:43] herman Bergson: YEs....it was Beertje....

[13:44] herman Bergson: What is the score? 34 killed and 220 wounded?

[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): these maniacs have to be stopped!

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): 230 wounded so far

[13:44] CB Axel: Jeesh

[13:44] herman Bergson: And allthis in the name of a god....

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): That I really don't understand.

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's coming closer and closer

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): Anhilate all life in the name of god OOO YES THAT IS REALLY GOOD!  

[13:45] herman Bergson: If I knew where that god lives I'd pay him a visit

[13:45] CB Axel: I vote for free will. I don't want to believe that the terrorism is pre-determined.

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): but that seem to be what they think in some way

[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are brainwashed

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): OMG CB. YES/

[13:45] CB Axel: If it's pre-determined, then we have no way to stop them unless that has been determined, too.

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): No, they must choose such a path

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Brussel is nearer than Amsterdam for me

[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): you're not born that way

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): indeed

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): you are not born a monster

[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): something make u one

[13:46] herman Bergson: Sheads an interesting light on the concept of determinism

[13:46] herman Bergson: I only can add one thing to it...

[13:46] herman Bergson: it was US who invented this concept....

[13:47] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think we've already formed an opinion of determinism.

[13:47] herman Bergson: ahh good Velvet....:-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: SO we can take a leave for the rest of...whatever time? :-)

[13:48] Velvet (velvet.braham): ....or maybe that's just me!

[13:48] herman Bergson smiles

[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ㋡

[13:48] herman Bergson: Let's discuss that the next time Velvet :-)

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): Makes you think. That's for sure.

[13:49] CB Axel: I think I'll exercise my free will by going to hear Caasi Ansar sing. °͜°

[13:49] herman Bergson: You should  CB :-)

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): excellent use of free will!

[13:49] CB Axel: I'll see you all on Thursday! Unless Herman is rendered speechless again. °͜°

[13:49] CB Axel: Bye, bye

[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu ㋡

[13:49] herman Bergson: I'll let you know in time CB :-))

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye CB