Thursday, March 10, 2016

606: Fate and Free Will in Ancient Greece

It is interesting to see, that the more rationality becomes the dominant way to understand the world and our lives, the smaller the room becomes for belief.

You could look at it like this. The more we explain what we do and what happens in rational analysis, the more we are able to see alternatives, that is, use free will to choose our actions.

It is amazing to see, that mankind has been so well aware of this aspect of life. The Greek were the fist to investigate this.

Is free will the ability to act by random choices? It is obvious that we have to answer “No”, for we are not free in that way. There always are limitations.

So, the real debate about free will is more a debate on reconciliation of our free will with  some kind of determinism.

In Homer’ s poem (about 800 BCE) the Iliad  human beings initiate the Trojan war. 

The poem represents the men fighting on both sides as caught up in and enslaved by it. It is they who wage the war, but they become what the war makes of them.

As the scores to settle mount each side is further and further anchored in their determination to prevail, to avenge, to destroy. 

That is how they are locked in an endless cycle of reaction and counter-reaction, each side bent on destroying the other, whatever it takes to do so, that is at whatever cost to themselves.

This is a powerful picture of human subjection, of the slavery of individuals to a cycle of reactions that are natural but mindless, but caused by a  process they initiated themselves.

More than 2500 years ago homo sapiens was already wondering about his life and final destiny. 

The more they abandoned believes and relied  on their own rationality, the more difficult became the answer.

The point is, that the stronger religious believes are, the stronger the idea becomes that it is lall in god’s hand, in other words completely determined.

In that respect Sophocles (about 496 - 406 BCE) presents us with an even more puzzling situation regarding free will.

In his tragedy King Oedipus , the tragic hero’ s fate is sealed even before his birth. Oedipus will kill his father and marry his mother.

His parents who know it through Apollo’ s oracle try their best to escape it and so does Oedipus when he comes to know of it, but in vain.

Just think about  it…the complex situation Sophocles  confronts us with.

The philosophical interest for us is that the fate prophesied for Oedipus is realized through his own actions so that he bears an individual responsibility for it.

All that Apollo’ s oracle says is that he will end up  by killing his father and marrying his mother. Nothing is said about what he will do to end up there. 

If his actions were determined in any detail, his fate would by-pass his individual responsibility

and Oedipus would turn into some sort of puppet instead of the tragic figure fit for Sophocles’  play.

But Oedipus feels responsible and blinds himself and leaves the city as a banned person.

Just think of it, that the human mind, thousands of years ago already showed us the complexity of free will problem.

Thank you..the floor is yours…


Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

Free Will, Ilham Dilham, 1999
On Free will, J.J.C.Smart, Mind 1961
Of Liberty and Necessity, James A. Harris, 2005
Free Will, A very short Introduction, Thomas Pink, 2003


The discussion

[13:21] CB Axel: Oedipus should have asked the oracle how killing his father, etc was going to happen. °͜°
[13:21] CB Axel: Not that he could have necessarily done anything about it.
[13:22] herman Bergson: the point is CB....
[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he had the free will to go away
[13:22] herman Bergson: th eidea of Sophocles....
[13:22] herman Bergson: The end station is st by the prophecy...
[13:22] herman Bergson: and whatever you do.....you can not escape it
[13:23] herman Bergson: free will?...determinism? :-)
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): we always end up with more questions than answers all the time
[13:23] herman Bergson: really brilliant htinking...
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hmm
[13:23] herman Bergson: I am so sorry Gemma :-)))))
[13:23] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no wonder we never graduate
[13:23] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)
[13:24] herman Bergson: sorry dear, but you are past graduation now :-)
[13:24] CB Axel: I see it as the end isn't set by the prophecy. It was already set and the oracle just saw what was set. In the end, it didn't matter to Oedipus. He was screwed from the get go. °͜°
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the prophecy said we never will Gemma
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:24] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): right
[13:24] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): CB
[13:24] CB Axel: As we all are, I guess.
[13:24] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehehe
[13:25] Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): I know the feeling Gemma 
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yep
[13:25] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Great one Herman! Enjoyed it very much... I will turn, have a great one all
[13:25] herman Bergson: when you graduate is means that you seem to have learnt something....
[13:25] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): turn in
[13:25] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok chantal
[13:25] herman Bergson: I dont want that to happen here :-)
[13:25] CB Axel: Good night, Chantal. Sleep well.
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): truste Chantal
[13:25] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Waves at all see you tomorrow CB
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): night CHantal
[13:25] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Truste lieverd
[13:25] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)
[13:25] Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): nite 
[13:25] herman Bergson: Bye Chantal :-)
[13:26] herman Bergson: Her mother doesnt allow here to stay up that late, you know :-)
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:26] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:26] CB Axel: I think it's her kid that doesn't allow it.
[13:27] herman Bergson: ssstttt...>CB.....
[13:27] CB Axel: Darn kids. They take away any free will you might have been born with.
[13:27] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:27] CB Axel: I'll get this conversation back to free will if it kills me!
[13:27] herman Bergson: Yes they took your free will indeed, CB :-)
[13:27] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is a prophecy always right? even we don't believe in a prophecy?
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i doubt it
[13:28] herman Bergson: In Oedipous case it didnt matter....
[13:28] herman Bergson: but the basic idea is that lif eis heading toward some point....whatever you do..you cannot escape it
[13:29] herman Bergson: Fate was still a strong feeling in Greek thinking then
[13:30] herman Bergson: Most interesting to see how it moves to th eindividual as the center of things with Plato
[13:30] herman Bergson: There our individualism is born, I think
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ah
[13:30] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): oki
[13:31] herman Bergson: Plato and Aristotle...
[13:31] CB Axel: Way back then.
[13:31] CB Axel: So how did God get that taken away?
[13:31] herman Bergson: I'l tell you about that next lecture on Thursday...and will miss Gemma then :-(
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): oh well
[13:32] herman Bergson: Well CB....
[13:32] herman Bergson: those Greek regarded their gods actually as pretty human....
[13:33] herman Bergson: there is a parallel....
[13:33] herman Bergson: there was a a philosophical moveming inIndia....
[13:33] herman Bergson: started 600BCE...
[13:34] herman Bergson: It was a materialist philsoophy...
[13:34] herman Bergson: only reason counted...nothing supernatural and so on...
[13:34] herman Bergson: it just disappeared...
[13:35] herman Bergson: what was left was religion...hinduism..buddhism...
[13:35] herman Bergson: this almost happened to the Greek too...due to Christianity...
[13:36] herman Bergson: but here with for instance Thomas Aquino ..it absorbed Aristole...
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and yet it was almost teh same philosophy
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): a god who is human
[13:36] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and god
[13:36] herman Bergson: and befor that Augustine incorporated Plato in his ideas
[13:37] herman Bergson: which god do you mean Gemma?
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): jesus
[13:37] CB Axel: Jesus
[13:37] CB Axel: God incarnate.
[13:37] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): who is the son of god who took humanity yes
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): so it is the same idea as the greeks
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and the Indians
[13:38] herman Bergson: I see....
[13:38] herman Bergson: well...I don't htink so :-))
[13:38] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well they did
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): exccpt he was only one not many
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): as the greek believed
[13:39] herman Bergson: those Greek humanlike gods were really human....they raped, stole, cheated and so on amoong eachother....can't say that of Jesus :-)
[13:39] CB Axel: nah. He just made water into wine.
[13:39] CB Axel: A much better use of his time, imo.
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)
[13:39] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well he lived as a person and who really knows what happened in many years of his life
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): he may have gone to India they say
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is possible
[13:40] herman Bergson: I don'tthink that his being human was a philosophically interesting issue :-)
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): perhaps
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): AQuinas did
[13:41] herman Bergson: I read a book that he sailed to france with his wife Maria magdelena, Gemma :-)
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there aer many stories about him
[13:41] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)
[13:41] herman Bergson: really...
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:41] herman Bergson: Well...
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i am just equating the many philosophical beliefs that were so shared in the far past
[13:42] herman Bergson: at least I hope you are aware of the fact that already the Greeks were wondering about what free will might mean in a human life :-)
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): but not considered so
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and we still are wondering
[13:43] herman Bergson: they hadnt the insights we have now..
[13:44] herman Bergson: but yet...I think Plato and Aristotle still ahve apoint today
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): is it neseccary to have a free will for humans to survive ?
[13:44] Guestboook van tipjar stand: Gemma Cleanslate donated L$50. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
[13:44] CB Axel: Not if it's pre-determined that we won't survive.
[13:44] herman Bergson: look at your parrot Beertje?!
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he has a free will, to bite me:)
[13:44] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hahah
[13:45] herman Bergson: lol
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:45] CB Axel: lol
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but he doesn't
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): OUUUUCH! DAMN PARROT
[13:45] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): and they love to
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako) whispers: he bit me!
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): lol
[13:45] Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): lol 
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): im not food
[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i will bite back..he knows that
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)
[13:45] herman Bergson: Believe me, Beertje has an RL parrot that does not bite ^_^
[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes:)
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): well trained
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats better, since i like parrots
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): they are quite funny esp when you teach them bad words and similar
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): heheheh
[13:46] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:47] herman Bergson: Welllet's first finish this discussion, before we all start talkin glike parrots :-)
[13:47] Kimmy Jannings (kim1987.wirefly): my friends did that 
[13:47] herman Bergson: SO thank you all again for your parrotation :-)
[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): :))
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)
[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismmised.....
[13:47] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehehe
[13:47] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): have a good vacation
[13:48] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:48] herman Bergson: But feel free to discuss parrots
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): :)
[13:48] Guestboook van tipjar stand: CB Axel donated L$100. Thank you very much, it is much appreciated!
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's just a grumpy old parrot:)
[13:48] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): hehe
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): they live long
[13:48] CB Axel: I'll see you (most of you) on Thursday.
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he is 86 years old
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ok
[13:49] herman Bergson: He may survive you Beertje...:-)
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:49] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): cu
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): wow..hope not
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

605: Freedom and limitations...

The more you study on the subject of Free Will, the more interesting it becomes and the more complex it becomes too.

I have added a few details to our diagram in relation to free will. As said, our positive freedom, our freedom to act is what makes us the individual we are.



But freedom? I guess this is a good moment to quote Clint Eastwood in his role as Dirty Harry: “A man has to know his limitations.”

Yes, we all believe our life is guided by our free will, but yet we are well aware that there are all kinds of limitations. Food for philosophers….

So there is a constant battle going on between our sense of freedom and our awareness , that one way to an other we can not act differently than we do…

Let’s have a closer look at these “forces” which seem to limit our freedom.

A  first one is the roles of ‘chance and necessity’ in human life and the impotence of the individual’s will in the face of it.

A second problem are some aspects of christian thinking. The believe that god has absolute foreknowledge of everything, means that all our actions are already knows, thence determined.

But when science freed itself from religious dogmas and went its own secular way, we didn’t regain our freedom.

On the contrary, we had to face a third attack on our freedom: the general law of causality. If everything is ruled by laws of physics and we are physical beings or objects………. ?????

Awareness of a fourth attack on our freedom is that feeling that every day is the same to you,  the perception of the endless repetition 

of the same patterns of action and behaviour in individual lives, the impotence of the will to change these patterns. 

You sigh and conclude, that you are the product op your childhood and education and that you can not get rid of its effect on your behaviour.

Through history philosophers have faced the four problems and tried to find satisfactory answers for human freedom in a world of cause, chance and necessity.

We are flesh-and-blood beings. As such we are part of the material world and so are subject to its causality. 

We are social beings and live in a world shaped by the culture to which we belong. We owe our very modes of thinking and assessment to it. 

We share its form of life and activities with others who exist independently of us and who co-operate as well as oppose us. 

We have a history, a past and roots in that past, attachments and loyalties. 

And, last but not least, chance too has a part in the events that confront us in our life and often stand in our way. 

We do not act in a vacuum and so we cannot be free in a vacuum. 
.
Each one of us has to find his freedom, in the sense of autonomy, in a world of cause, chance and necessity.

However, when we look around in this world, we see, that our concept of human freedom,

which makes us the individual persons, we can be, is nor really shared by everyone. 

And looking for a future of this world….is this a good thing or a bad thing?

Thank you for your attention…. the floor is yours…^_^



Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

Free Will, Ilham Dilham, 1999
On Free will, J.J.C.Smart, Mind 1961
Of Liberty and Necessity, James A. Harris, 2005
Free Will, A very short Introduction, Thomas Pink, 2003



The Discussion

[13:22] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): compare to other states we have a lot of freedom
[13:22] Ciska Riverstone: thanx herman
[13:23] herman Bergson: ok Beertje..so our situation is a good thing?
[13:23] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): yes, i think so
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we are free to choose what we want and to say what we want
[13:24] herman Bergson: Sounds like everyone agrees with you Beertje :-)
[13:24] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):
[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they are free to sleep now:)
[13:25] Ciska Riverstone: i'm not sure where you were pointing at herman : is culture limiting free will right now? and is that a good thing? is that the question?
[13:25] herman Bergson: and I must say that we are not free to choos ewhat we want or say what we want ^_^
[13:25] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): is here, awake
[13:26] herman Bergson: Good remark Ciska....!
[13:26] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): some cultures definitely are
[13:26] herman Bergson: I point you at thinking..to begin with :-)
[13:26] CB Axel: Are there any cultures where one is free to just murder someone? That would be an example of not being able to choose what you do.
[13:27] Ciska Riverstone: well the question might be : what is the use of a culture usually?
[13:28] herman Bergson: the use of culture...?
[13:28] herman Bergson: it is just there...
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: yes - well practically spoken culutre organizes us
[13:28] Ciska Riverstone: culture
[13:28] herman Bergson: and the freedom to murder...that is a really basic biological question....
[13:28] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well there indeed are cultures in iran and middle east in general if a girl is seen with a man that her family have not decided they can then choose to murder her to "preserve the family honour"
[13:29] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): horrible stuff!
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: mostly for basic needs
[13:29] CB Axel: Sure, but even there they can't just go around killing just anyone.
[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): we murder lot's of animals just to eat them, that's horrible too
[13:29] Ciska Riverstone: true beertje
[13:30] herman Bergson: that is another subject beertje...
[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no, we are free to refuse to eat aniimals
[13:30] herman Bergson: Killing humans at random is something...
[13:31] herman Bergson: but that idea isn't realistic...I would say...biologically we are not inclined to killour fellowmen at random
[13:31] herman Bergson: we need an ideology to motivate us...
[13:31] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): killing someone because in love with wrong person is so sad. I dont get how anyone think they can control a basic drive like love
[13:31] herman Bergson: best one is a religion...
[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes bejiita ..as a sidestep we commit a crime passionel :-)
[13:32] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ah
[13:33] herman Bergson: But let's get back to Ciska's question...
[13:33] herman Bergson: Is culture limiting our free will....
[13:34] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): depends on the culture i guess
[13:34] herman Bergson: but WE ARE the culture Bejiita...
[13:34] CB Axel: I can't think of a single culture that doesn't limit our free will.
[13:34] herman Bergson: we create our way of livnng together..
[13:34] herman Bergson: Indeed CB
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): depends on the tribe I guess which culture you have
[13:35] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): yes this is our culture and we are free but other cultures have not same freedom, like the example i told before
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: for one thing we need culture to sustain us physical  - we need to eat built and be healthy
[13:35] CB Axel: And I say our culture still controls our behavior.
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: do we need a will to want that?
[13:35] herman Bergson: That was my final remakr inthe lecture Bejiita...!
[13:35] Ciska Riverstone: or is that just biological basics?
[13:36] Ciska Riverstone: I do agree cb - but that comes due to the way culture was organized in history and still is
[13:36] herman Bergson: as  I said...we do not live in a vacuum....
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): culture is so many different things all connected together to form a sort of system to hold us together in one way or another
[13:36] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): its complex
[13:36] herman Bergson: Like a fish doesn’t live outside the water
[13:37] CB Axel: Not for long, anyway.
[13:37] herman Bergson: Like we do not live outside oxygen...:-)
[13:38] herman Bergson: (just to help the fish :-)
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: fact is we do have basic needs which do come automatically with our biology
[13:38] Ciska Riverstone: would we have the free will to live without them?
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: bit difficult because we would stop to exist if we would not sustain our biology
[13:39] herman Bergson: this is a good point, Ciska....
[13:39] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): very true
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: so is a will still free if it does sustain our intrests?
[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can culture be an excuse to do horrible things and not think for yourself?
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: (In this point- the interest of being alive?
[13:39] Ciska Riverstone: )
[13:39] herman Bergson: you have to keep in mind that free refers to our actions.....
[13:40] Ciska Riverstone: no thats nothing culture can do beertje - thats true
[13:40] herman Bergson: the will is just the determination to act
[13:40] CB Axel: we found that in order to survive we had to learn to depend on others. And to be able to depend on others, we had to be nice to each other. Thus, culture.
[13:40] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): thats how a culture should be indeed
[13:40] herman Bergson: yes CB :-)
[13:40] CB Axel: And the removal of total free will.
[13:41] herman Bergson: I would disagree there.....
[13:42] herman Bergson: for in your last statement you make free will some special concept  not related to the context we live in...
[13:42] CB Axel: Well, you could still have the freedom to be a jerk, but then you'd lose the community that helps you survive.
[13:42] Ciska Riverstone: mh - maybe we could put it differently: culture should serve to sustain the basic needs of everyone who lives in. To achieve that we all have the will to work - the one way or the other - but we do not have the will to give up choices as to how that looks like
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: so will becomes a quality based idea then somehow
[13:43] Ciska Riverstone: which is tied to the individual
[13:43] herman Bergson: the whole debate about free will is the observation that we do not live in a vacuum....
[13:44] Ciska Riverstone: seen from the perspective that free will is the determination to act
[13:44] herman Bergson: our context forces limitations on us....but in how far...and in how much should we accept them....and in  how much are they unavoidable....
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: is there the question if reacting is no free will in general?
[13:45] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): well we still choose if and how to act
[13:45] Ciska Riverstone: yes  and to react too
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: may brain is a bit tango atm
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: my
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: sorry ,)
[13:46] herman Bergson: but even in your reactions you can be conditioned by education, Ciska...
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: thats possible yes
[13:46] Ciska Riverstone: or not ;)
[13:47] herman Bergson: main point here might be the concept of "Freedom"
[13:48] herman Bergson: The whole debate is about fredom and determinism...eventually
[13:48] herman Bergson: so we'll have this debate another number of times in the coming lectures :-)
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): has freedom the same meaning for every person on this earth?
[13:49] herman Bergson: That depends Beertje...
[13:49] herman Bergson: Maybe a person feels free..bu twhenyou show this person what you are allowed to do...???
[13:50] herman Bergson: I guess freedom might get another meaning for that person
[13:51] herman Bergson: Plenty of stuff to think about I guess...
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: isn't personal freedom always limited by the ideas we have?
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: in the moment we get more ideas
[13:51] herman Bergson: So, thank you all again for your participation....:-)
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: we have more possibilities to choose
[13:51] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: and that feels freer ;)
[13:51] herman Bergson: Class dismissed...^_^
[13:51] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:51] herman Bergson: Enjoy the weekend ^_^
[13:51] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman.
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: u too
[13:52] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Thank you Herman
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): nice again Herman
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): YAY! (yay!)
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): ok cu next time
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: I go dancing a ibt to shake the brain ;)
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako): me too
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: have a good evening everyone
[13:52] Particle Physicist Bejiita (bejiita.imako):
[13:52] Ciska Riverstone: heheh
[13:52] Chantal (nymf.hathaway): Waves
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): welteruste Ciska
[13:52] herman Bergson: Good idea Ciska :-)
[13:52] CB Axel: Good bye, everyone. See you on Tuesday. °͜°
















Wednesday, February 17, 2016

604: Determinism - Indeterminism



First I want to do is to congratulate Gemma with her appointment as Assistant Professor of The Philosophy Class.




The Board of Directors of the Philosophy Class, of which I am the only member, voted unanimously for her appointment 

to express its appreciation and gratitude for the pleasant cooperation through the many years and her never wavering loyalty to philosophical thinking.

Congratulations, Gemma, you really deserve it….. ^_^

And now back to work….. The idea of being in control of how we act, the “up-to-us-ness” of our actions, is an idea we all share. 

It is a constant and fundamental feature of our thinking, and one that we can all recognize. 

And the idea is irresistible. However sceptical we may become when doing philosophy, 

once we fall back into ordinary life we do all continue to think of how we act as being up to us. 

Thinking of ourselves as being in control of how we act is part of what enables us to see living as something so valuable. 

In so far as we can direct and control how we ourselves act, our lives can be genuinely our own achievement or failure. 

Our lives can be our own, not merely to be enjoyed or endured, but for ourselves to direct and make. 

Or so we think. But are we really in charge of our actions? Is how we act truly up to us as things 

such as the past, the nature of the universe, even many of our own beliefs and feelings, are not? 

The problem of whether we are ever in control of how we act, and what this control involves, is what philosophers call the free will problem.

Most important is, of course, what Isaiah Berlin called the “positive” freedom, the freedom to… to be an individual, in our case.

It is fascinating to see , that the free will problem is as old as philosophy itself. In other words, like ethics, we apparently are not able to answer the fundamental questions in an unambiguous way.

This is understandable, because, as we already saw, free will is closely related to action and thence to the question “Was this a good, just or fair action?”

This could lead to the conclusion, that there would be no ethics at all, if there does not exist a free will. Everything would have a physical cause.

That is pretty extreme. It is counterintuitive. It is not the way we think about ourselves. So let’s summarize our position.

Regarding the  problem of free will, you could see the situation like this: You can not speak of a free will. Our will is our determination to act.

It is like Sartre’s idea of choice. The adjective “free” can not be applied to “choice”. You can not escape to chose.

So, when we are determined to…. or ready to choose to…., then we are free, that is, we are free to act, we have options.

To put it in a simple way: for centuries philosophers wander between on the one hand the idea that whatever we do is just an event in a determined causal chain of events,

while at the other extreme there is the idea whatever we do is totally undetermined. Indeterminism is important for the question of free will 

because strict determinism implies just one possible future. Indeterminism means that the future is unpredictable. 

Indeterminism allows alternative futures and the question becomes how the one actual present is realized from these potential alternatives.

In the previous lectures we studied the development of the concept of “the individual”.  One of the quintessential characteristics of the individual is freedom, call it free will.

In the coming lectures I’ll present you with the answers suggested by a number of philosophers and it will be up to you to take your stand.

Thank you for your attention…the floor is yours ..:-)


Main Sources:
MacMillan The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 2nd edition
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1995

Free Will, Ilham Dilham, 1999
On Free will, J.J.C.Smart, Mind 1961
Of Liberty and Necessity, James A. Harris, 2005
Free Will, A very short Introduction, Thomas Pink, 2003

The Discussion


[13:28] herman Bergson smiles
[13:28] herman Bergson: If there  is no free will but everything just a causal event, Iguess you may have all fallen asleep :-)
[13:28] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): never going to solve it here
[13:29] herman Bergson: the essence is not to solve it Gemma
[13:29] druth Vlodovic: there are so many variables involved in every decision, and many are delicately balanced
[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): we have all chosen to fall asleep! Indeterminism
[13:29] CB Axel: Every event since the big bang has determined that I would be speechless right now. °͜°
[13:29] herman Bergson: I knew it :-)
[13:30] druth Vlodovic: almost looks like the illusion of free will is the lack of processing power to crunch the equations
[13:30] herman Bergson: But that is the heart of the debate...
[13:30] CB Axel: I'm going to blame everything that happens to me from now on on the big bang.
[13:30] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): someone's else's action might interfere with my free will and vv
[13:30] CB Axel: If I get caught speeding I'll just tell the officer, "Sorry. The big bang made me do it."
[13:30] druth Vlodovic: that falls down when others start using that argument on what they do to you CB
[13:31] herman Bergson: That is the Negative freedom, Gemma...
[13:31] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): yes
[13:31] herman Bergson: Restrictions from outside...
[13:31] druth Vlodovic: sounds a bit like the nature versus nurture debate
[13:31] herman Bergson: Like are forced to stay inside when i heavily rains
[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): You can go out!
[13:32] herman Bergson: To some extend it is Druth
[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): you still have the choice
[13:32] herman Bergson: Eventually you have Velvet :-)
[13:32] CB Axel: Do you?
[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): sure!
[13:32] CB Axel: Not if everything is pre-determined.
[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): and if it's not, you're good to go
[13:33] herman Bergson: And that has been the debate for centuries CB...
[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): grab your umbrella
[13:33] herman Bergson: to what extend are you free to go out....?
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): singing in the rain Velvet?
[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Velvet
[13:34] herman Bergson: To begin with...you are forced to grab ab umbrella
[13:34] druth Vlodovic: you grab your umbrella in order to exercise the radical freedom you have been induced to believe in due to your environment
[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no, umbrella is not needed
[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): always singin' in the rain
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): i use a coat with a hood
[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): If you remember, Gene Kelly gave his umbrella away and danced in the rain
[13:34] druth Vlodovic: trapped in a habit of freedom
[13:34] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): don’t like umbrellas
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): tho i have at least 5
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are you free to dance naked in the rain?
[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): sure!
[13:35] herman Bergson: We'll going to meet a number pf philosophers who try to find their way in this dilemma of deterministic and indeterministic existence
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:35] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): if you like
[13:35] CB Axel: And others are free to arrest you for dancing naked in the rain.
[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): that's true
[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol
[13:36] herman Bergson: And you are free to call me when it rains, Velvet :-))
[13:36] CB Axel: Or to throw a blanket over you, at least.
[13:36] herman Bergson: that is what I would come for, CB :-))
[13:36] Velvet (velvet.braham): it takes more than rain to stop me
[13:36] CB Axel: You'd throw the blanket over the both of you. :p
[13:36] herman Bergson: there...again free will :-)
[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): I'm big on choice. It's going to be tough to make me waver on that
[13:37] CB Axel: But if everything is pre-determined, you wouldn't even be aware that you're not making choices.
[13:37] herman Bergson: If you follow Sartre you'd even say that you are condemned to choice, Velvet
[13:37] druth Vlodovic: we have a strong social conditioning to believe in free choice and individual determinism
[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): I might be predetermined to believe in choice
[13:38] herman Bergson: we all believe we can choose in many situations
[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): So either I am free to choose or I'm not and I believe I am free to choose
[13:39] druth Vlodovic: my conditioning says that is better than being predetermined to believe that you lack choice
[13:39] herman Bergson: Take this example....
[13:39] herman Bergson: Someone commits a crime...
[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): If there's no way to tell the difference, then it's the same
[13:39] herman Bergson: free will
[13:40] herman Bergson: In court however the lawyer says...it is caused by his childhood experiences...he couldn’t act differently in that situation
[13:40] herman Bergson: shoudl we take that into account or not?
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that has been used over and over
[13:40] herman Bergson: Indeed it has Gemma....
[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): we take everything into account
[13:40] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think we always have a choise in that
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): last time it failed miserably
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): kid got off
[13:40] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): did something he should not have
[13:41] herman Bergson: ok..another one....
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): Mother actually fled iwth him to mexico
[13:41] herman Bergson: man attacks woman....
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): no he is back in jail
[13:41] herman Bergson: he says..it is her fault..she was wearing such a short skirt...
[13:41] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): phooey
[13:41] druth Vlodovic: if the person's behaviour is determined by his upbringing to the extent that he cannot act differently then shouldn't he be put away for longer than otherwise?
[13:41] druth Vlodovic: at least until his personal determinism has been restored
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): that's what happened in Keulen
[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje..
[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): yeah, the short skirt defence won't work
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): there are many that think that way
[13:42] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they couldn't help it because the girls wore not a djalebba
[13:42] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): idiots
[13:42] herman Bergson: As you see there are close ties between a deterministic interpretation and a free will interpretation of behavior
[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): couldn't these man think forthemselves?
[13:43] druth Vlodovic: funny that, if you think about it, fundamentalist Islam's women's dress codes says more negative about the men than the women
[13:43] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): in a group situation probably not
[13:43] herman Bergson: not if it is your upbringing, Beertje
[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): apparently men give up free will in exchange for a Y chromosome.
[13:43] CB Axel: I agree, druth. They must be very, very weak men.
[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): no offense, Herman.
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!
[13:44] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...
[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): to much progesterone
[13:44] herman Bergson: I know I am a minority here, Velvet :-)
[13:44] CB Axel: You are seriously out-numbered. lol
[13:44] druth Vlodovic: but we can show that reaction to how a woman is dressed has much to do with acclimatisation and socialization
[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): you keep up the high standards!
[13:44] druth Vlodovic: even their physiological reactions
[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): well, that has nothing to do with with the price of tomatoes
[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): as my mother would say
[13:45] herman Bergson: Indeed Velvet...:-)
[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): my nipples get hard when it's cold out
[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): but I'm really not excited by it
[13:46] druth Vlodovic: if we regard behaviour as uncontrollable physiological reactions then it has much to do with it
[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): probably TMI
[13:46] herman Bergson: So, I think we'll have a touch job in figuring out what to do with determinism/indeterminism
[13:46] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very
[13:46] herman Bergson: For the investigative minds...
[13:47] Velvet (velvet.braham): If a personal has an uncontrollable psychological reaction
[13:47] herman Bergson: the in between is called compatibelism
[13:47] Velvet (velvet.braham): perhaps they need to seek help
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they need education
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): very good
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that is very true
[13:48] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): en een pak slaag van hun moeder
[13:48] herman Bergson: I'll take an historical approach in the next lectures to show you how this problem was handled through the ages...
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that will be interesting
[13:48] druth Vlodovic: well,anything taken to an ultimate extreme starts divorcing itself from both reality and sense
[13:48] herman Bergson: So, thank you all again for your participation ......
[13:48] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): true
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): thank you
[13:49] druth Vlodovic: it's a shame the middle road is so complicated and boring
[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you!
[13:49] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): will see if i can make it Thursday
[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): I dunno druth, the middle sounds pretty good most days
[13:49] herman Bergson: Thank you all...class dismissed :-)
[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman
[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): life probably sucks on the fringes
[13:50] druth Vlodovic: just because it is true doesn't mean I want to believe in it
[13:50] herman Bergson: the middle road can be interesting....
[13:50] Velvet (velvet.braham): high five on that, druth
[13:50] Ciska Riverstone: thank you herman
[13:50] druth Vlodovic: :P
[13:50] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you can easily look right and left from there:)
[13:50] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): it is hard sometimes druth
[13:50] Velvet (velvet.braham): Beertje's got it
[13:50] Velvet (velvet.braham): Beertjeology
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): nice
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont):
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): that works
[13:51] Gemma (gemma.cleanslate): bye for now
[13:51] CB Axel: Thank you, Herman. I'll see you all on Thursday. If the big bang has determined that I will, that is. °͜°
[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Gemma
[13:51] herman Bergson: Bye Gemma :-)
[13:51] Velvet (velvet.braham): Beertjeology elminates "us vs them" thinking!
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins
[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes indeed CB
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: if we were created without free will then it means that our creator wanted us to debate free will which we don't have
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: disturbing
[13:52] druth Vlodovic: thanks for the lecture Herman
[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all
[13:52] herman Bergson: My pleasure Druth :-)
[13:52] Velvet (velvet.braham): thank you everyone! Take notes for me until I can make a class