403: The Utopia of the Free Market - early communism

In a previous lecture (398) I quoted the Harvard professor of philosophy Michael Sandel….

`In recent decades, social inequality has increased, especially in the United States and parts of Europe. It is often seen as unjust relative to the poor.

That is true. But there is another reason to worry about the growing disparity between rich and poor. 

Too large a gap makes it increasingly difficult to see ourselves as citizens who share a common life. This damages the moral fabric, which our society is made of´, he says.

Now take this quote:

The rich will do anything to skimp the wages of the poor, it happens either by fraud or by general laws, 

so that the abuses that already exist (because it is an abuse,that those who do most for the state get the lowest pay) are exacerbated by the same state.

-end quote

There are the words of Thomas More (1478 - 1535) in his Utopia, a description of the ideal society.

Under the reign of Henry VIII, King of england from 1509 till 1547, at least 12.000 tramps and thieves (Marx  mentions 72.000) were hanged.

What was going on? The slow rise of a free market economy. The late medieval society slowly changed from a subsistence economy into a market economy.

In England this was among other things caused by the Church and nobility, who confiscated more and more commons.

Commons were free fields and meadows where the people of small communities all could  grow crops or graze their cattle.

But in those days wool was big money. So those in power  confiscated the commons for their sheep. 

The same you see happen today in China, where poor farmers are driven off their land by fraud or other means by those who are in power. They want the land for their money making projects.

The result in those days was a hugh mass of poor and deprived people who  really had to steal to survive.

The most peculiar fact is that this increase of poverty, while general wealth was increasing, wasn't understood in those days.

Adam Smith (1723 - 1790) still was puzzled by the enigma of increasing social prosperity accompanied by growing masses of paupers.

Thomas More, however, came with a possible answer 200 years earlier. 

-quote

"It seems to me, that everywhere, where private property exists and where everybody appreciates everything for its money value,

it hardly is possible, that there can be justice and happiness in the state, unless you hold the opinion, 

that there is justice, where the best goes to the worst people or that there is happiness where everything is obtained only by a few.

- end quote

Thus Thomas More formulated in his Utopia the first anti free market philosophy in the form of a kind of democratic communism: no money, no private property.

This concept has never left us since.

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you.....

[13:22] herman Bergson: I want to add one remark to my lecture...

[13:22] herman Bergson: in More's days I don't think that they had a concept like 'unemployment' like we have now....

[13:23] herman Bergson: the floor is yours now ^_^

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Maybe the unemployed just died

[13:23] herman Bergson: Oh yes they did.....

[13:23] herman Bergson: poverty in those days was enormous....

[13:24] herman Bergson: People driven from their land....that is one side....

[13:24] herman Bergson: the other was the new phenomenon that you "sold" your labor power for wages....

[13:24] herman Bergson: But there weren't many jobs....

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes, people just working for themselves

[13:25] herman Bergson: Later the factory became the only way of survival....

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...you produced what you needed....or got it by barter

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Concerning money, There is a comparison with animals, where some males get all the females and others get none. Sea Lions? Gorillas?

[13:26] herman Bergson: That is an evolutionary process....

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Actually we are close to gorillas too

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I mean it is gross inequality

[13:27] herman Bergson: becoming a laborer in a factory is a cultural product

[13:27] herman Bergson: no...Merlin...

[13:27] herman Bergson: Because the male with the most females has also the best genes so contributes to the survival of the group

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): you could say the same about our social inequality

[13:28] herman Bergson: That the few get all the wealth and abuse the masses of poor people has nothing to do with evolution...just with greed

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): I'm not sure that men with the most women have the best genes in our society.

[13:28] Velvet (velvet.braham): :)

[13:28] herman Bergson: No Velvet..I agree ^_^

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: that can be true for sure

[13:29] herman Bergson: Tho there may still be atavistic features in our way to find a mate....there is too much culture in it too

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: but every person has criteria for choosing a partner

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well other animals don't have money.....

[13:30] herman Bergson: besides that....in our society also the weaker specimens of th ehomo sapiens survive and can have a fruitful life because of our medical care

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Maybe its true also of territory

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: a very disturbing thing is in the middle east where the parents force the daughter to marry who THEY choose and murder her if she refuse

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: this type of honor murders have become alarmingly high

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Bej

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: yes bejiita!

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: awful for sure

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: we have that in germany

[13:31] herman Bergson: yes it is Bejiita...

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The happen in England

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): *they

[13:31] herman Bergson: But such things are the result of the culture people are brought up in

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: you cant control someones love feelings thats impossible

[13:31] Velvet (velvet.braham): Here in the US, I just get the disapproving look from my mother. It's terrifying.

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: they brake the will if the girls

[13:32] Velvet (velvet.braham): she's a force to be reckoned with.

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): hmm..the LOOK is enough then...lol

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: heheh

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well...today's basic idea is that Thomas More formulated the 'remedy' against the developing free market

[13:33] herman Bergson: abandon private property...

[13:33] herman Bergson: abandon money....

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There was a saying 'Property is theft'

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I don't thing that myself tho

[13:34] herman Bergson: Thus Thomas More was at the roots of communism...

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are we going back to the time that people have to take care for their own survival?

[13:34] herman Bergson: That is from Marx Merlin

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): share everything for the benefit of the group

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: a sci fo example of that we see in star trek, thats the only way they could build those ships cause money was abandoned there and the value of the produced things themselves and what they could do was the important stuff

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: not money

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: think they say something about a system like that in TNG

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ah OK ty Herman. Most quotes come from some famous person

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): that's a great observation Bejiita

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): do we think that we can someday abandon money?

[[13:35] Bejiita Imako: i mean everyone nags about road repair ect "but there is no money to do it"

[13:35] herman Bergson: I dont think so Velvet.....

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: well it needs to be done anyway

[13:35] herman Bergson: At least not in our lifetime :-)

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: stuff like that

[13:35] Velvet (velvet.braham): me neither, Herman

[13:35] herman Bergson: We live in a money economy.....

[13:35] druth Vlodovic: money is just a manifestation of incentive and power really

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Anyway, my belief is that there is no 'long term' for mankind

[13:36] druth Vlodovic: a convenience

[13:36] Velvet (velvet.braham): nods at druth

[13:36] herman Bergson: just study on those so called DERIVATIVES….which cause so much damage and disaster in the financial world....

[13:36] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): James Lovelock was on the radio this morning

[13:37] druth Vlodovic: actually, an alternative method is "social capital" which used to be based on family and friendships, you could trade on that

[13:37] herman Bergson: Just try to understand what derivates are and it gives you the shivers

[13:38] druth Vlodovic: but they have a way of basing it on your facebook and twitter post volume now that is donwright scary, because it can be easily gamed by those why don't believein the concept

[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Do you mean Derivatives?

[13:38] Fred123 Aiten: I agree that derivatives should be banned

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): what are derivatives?

[13:39] herman Bergson: creepy mathematical things Velvet

[13:39] Fred123 Aiten: derivatives are combining several isolated instruments into a new instrument that can be traded

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:39] herman Bergson: they are kind of value objects.....

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): can't find it in my translator

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes, derive from something else

[13:39] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I get you Fred

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: like that

[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): I studied math, I know what a derivative is mathematically

[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): but financially, not so much

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): A bit like those mortgage packages that caused the bank cirsis

[13:40] herman Bergson: something like....as a bank you have mortgages.....

[13:40] herman Bergson: they involve a certain risk that you wont get your money as abank...

[13:40] herman Bergson: then you sell those mortgages to someone else who likes to take that risk....

[13:41] herman Bergson: something like that

[13:41] herman Bergson: they have all kinds of fancy names...

[13:41] herman Bergson: SWAPS , SWAP OPTIONS..and so on...

[13:41] Fred123 Aiten: isn't that called hedging?

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): ahhh those are called toxic

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:41] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yeah its a bit vague to me but its all I need to know

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): toxic loans

[13:42] herman Bergson: YEs for as much as I understand…hedgefunds are the biggest bandits in this world of derivatives

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: lot of terms made so no one will understand what they are and thyse make misstakes and loose money to the winning of the bank

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: i don't get half of the financial mumbo jumbo that you have to know to do this and that

[13:43] herman Bergson: One of toy gave a a URL to some webpage that explained on what mathematical formulas all these things were based....

[13:43] herman Bergson: invented in the 60s if I am not mistaken....

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hmm ok

[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): would it be off-topic to ask about inflation in South America?

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: the best is, put your money under the matras, the risk of loosing it is lower

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): what money?

[13:44] herman Bergson: the thing is that the math is correct, but that people used it to take much higher risks than was justified by the financial math

[13:44] Lizzy Pleides: any money

[13:44] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hahaha

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): When I went to buy a house, I was stunned at the amount I was approved for

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): I could never have afforded that

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well Thomas More gave us an idea…Marx tried it out...and it didn't work :-(

[13:45] herman Bergson: so now we are still in this capitalist madhouse ^_^

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and now we are on a sinking ship basically

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: more was a wise man but he ended tragical

[13:45] herman Bergson: Well Lizzy.....that is questionable....

[13:46] herman Bergson: in the first place...

[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): nothing wrong with being capitalist, as long as there are checks and balances

[13:46] herman Bergson: as politician he was a fierce defender of private property to begin with

[13:46] druth Vlodovic: the problem with communism is really the same problem we have with capitalism isn't it? a few people taking over and gaming the system for personal advantage without regard for others

[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): Nods at Druth again. I agree!

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:46] herman Bergson: Righ Druth...

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ysing others for yourself

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: using

[13:47] herman Bergson: In fact what More already observed....

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I still cannot understand why communism is always associated with totalitarianism

[13:47] herman Bergson: that a few get everything and the masses almost nothing

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Even the british labour party were repressive

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:47] herman Bergson: there only can be one reason Merlin.....

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes?

[13:48] herman Bergson: You really have to keep the people under control, otherwise greed will take over the orginasation :-)

[13:48] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Moore was at least honest and a man of principles

[13:48] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): and gave his life for them

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: but who controles?

[13:48] herman Bergson: Yes..that is why he was beheaded Annie

[13:48] herman Bergson: The greedy few at the top Lizzy ^_^

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): Holy schike

[13:49] herman Bergson: Like in Animal farm

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Oh Moore was beheaded?

[13:49] Velvet (velvet.braham): schnike. Who beheaded him and why?

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sir Walter Raleigh was executed too

[13:49] herman Bergson: All animals are equal but some animals are more equal

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): One day a hero next day a vilain

[13:50] herman Bergson: Henry VIII did Velvet, because More didn't want to recognize him as hea dof the Church....More stuck to the Pope in Rome

[13:50] Velvet (velvet.braham): ahhhh right. Because Henry wanted a new wife.

[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): I do not know how historically accurate it was; but I would recommend watching "A man for all seasons" about Moore.

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): it's like they sayd in earlier days..the priests said I keep them dom..and the Director of the Factory director said I keep them poor

[13:51] herman Bergson: Right Velvet ^_^

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That's my ancestor you are talking about

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Henry VIII

[13:51] herman Bergson: dom = ignorant

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Probably hehe

[13:51] Velvet (velvet.braham): The guy was a pioneer, Merlin

[13:51] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): sorry

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Velvet you have to admit it

[13:52] herman Bergson: Well...before we start a revolution, I think I'd better thank you for your participation again ^_^

[13:52] Velvet (velvet.braham): revolution!

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:52] herman Bergson: Thank you all

[13:52] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Don't forget, the RL cops can read the blog

[13:52] Fred123 Aiten: thank you herman

[13:53] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you, comrade Herman!

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: i don't want to end on a guillotine, lol

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i wish they did Merlin

[13:53] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :)

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman

[13:53] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...sometimes I am aware of the fact that the pages have been read already more than 18.000 times by people all over the world

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: heheh

[13:53] herman Bergson: Just look at the map on the wall...

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: anither interesting time

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:54] herman Bergson: Thank you Bejiita

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Ik word er niet vrolijker van...

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: ok cu soon again

[13:54] herman Bergson: You never know....but maybe somewhere our discussion lights a spark somewhere ......

[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye All

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: time for me to go start a revolution now

[13:54] herman Bergson: Bye Merlin

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody!

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: cu next time

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:55] Velvet (velvet.braham): revolution!!!

[13:55] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Goodbye everyone

[13:55] herman Bergson: YEAHH!!!!

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hugs all

[13:55] Velvet (velvet.braham): see you all on Thursday. I expect revolution reports.

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ill do my best

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Velvet

[13:55] Velvet (velvet.braham): smiles!

[13:55] herman Bergson: ok Velvet....

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:55] Velvet (velvet.braham): night all

[13:55] herman Bergson: By Velvet

402: The Utopia of the Free Market - Aristotle's ideas

Ivan Boesky famously defended greed in a May 18, 1986, commencement address at the UC Berkeley's School of Business Administration, 

in which he said, "Greed is all right, by the way. I want you to know that. I think greed is healthy. You can be greedy and still feel good about yourself". 

This speech inspired the 1987 film Wall Street, Shortly after, the Feds had busted him for insider trading. Boesky received a prison sentence of 3.5 years and was fined US$100 million.

Maybe greed isn't advisable at all. Medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas (1225 - 1274) said of Greed: "it is a sin directly against one's neighbor,  

since one man cannot over-abound in external riches, without another man lacking them... it is a sin against God, just as all mortal sins, inasmuch as man contemns things eternal for the sake of temporal things."

So, the idea is that man is destined to focus on eternal, which means spiritual things and not on material and temporary things.

You could define greed as the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. 

Not a dictate of basic survival and yet so deeply rooted in our system. The more you think about it the more fascinating it becomes. What is the essence of greed?

2300 years ago already Aristotle had discovered the existence of greed. He was the first one, who explicitly condemned it.

According to Aristotle in the first place people strive for a good and virtuous life. The establishment of a state must therefore be such that it enables people to achieve this ultimate goal.

On the one hand there was the 'oikonomia', the managing of a household, but it can never produce everything the household needs.

Therefore on the other hand there was the "chremastike", the acquisition of property through sale or exchange, which is the main ingredient of our modern economy.

Aristotle wasn't  really happy about it. He says in his "Ethica': "We are only forced to choose chremastike. Wealth is clearly not the good we seek: it is a commodity, a means to something else."

The situation is thus: you have a commodity, which you interchange for money, so that you can buy another commodity later.

But then greed kicks in. Money is no longer a means to buy another commodity. Now you turn the tables: you first have money with which you buy a commodity, so that you can sell it for twice as much money elsewhere. That is what we call "making money"

Marx went a step further. We'll get to him later. He said, the commodity itself is not what creates the profit. It is the labor power of the workers, that produces the big profit.

Then you get this: You spend as less as possible on the labor power of the workers who produce whatever product and then you sell your product for ten times more than you spend on the labor power.

For Aristotle barter was the natural way of exchanging goods among people to come to redistribution of goods, so that everyone could strive for a good and virtuous life.

This means that there are other values in life more important than accumulation of great wealth, of money.

Therefore in the eyes of Aristotle making money with money was even the most unnatural thing to do. 

I think, that it was about 2300 years ago that we already were warned for the Utopia of the free market.

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you.....

[13:22] herman Bergson: The floor is yours... ㋡

[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I dont see how barter makes any difference to greed

[13:22] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks

[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): For example gold could also play a part in bartering, and that is equivalent to money

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i want to know how aristotle ate?? did his students feed him?

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: gold also have a true value compared to money

[13:23] herman Bergson: to barter you have add the concept of the JUST PRICE , Merlin...

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): It is the idea that money makes money, but money = exchange commodity for goods

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: cause its a valuable material while money is just paper

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: or not even that

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: only 1 and 0 in a computer

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): but money is a form of barter which allows finer tuning

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Money tends to flow into the hands of a few, unfairly.

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin when it is not used to make profits but works with the just price

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): if you trade two sheep for one cow they will not have equal values

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: the main prob with greed is clear however, yes a few wanting more and more by "sucking out" the others '

[13:25] herman Bergson: I don't know....depends on the needs involved...

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: greed often leads to dishonesty

[13:25] herman Bergson: When I need milk and I have many sheeps ...

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: just because they think that make them more valuable and the rest is just worthless to them

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: but a life cant be measured in money

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: but they seem to think that

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: and thats really sad

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well Bejiita, I have heard of some institution that really calculated the price of a human life...

[13:26] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes herman, we do it now

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): The cost of road safety etc

[13:27] Fred123 Aiten: how do you determine the just price of a commodity?

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: eeh but is that even possible, how can a life have a price?

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Medical treatment too

[13:27] Celtos (firelight7): i think behind greed is often fear of mortality

[13:27] herman Bergson: A difficult question Fred, but one feature can be the labor put into creating the commodity

[13:27] Bejiita Imako: your value depends on who you are as person , if your nice and so id say you have a higher walye then the ones that are bad

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think greed is promoted through advertising....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: at least really bad

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: like the mass murderer on norway Brevik

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes it is Debbie....

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: hes a monster not a person

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: was shocked from what he said on the trials

[13:28] herman Bergson: All advertizments instruct us t "you must have this or that"

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think I missed something

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: Brevik is the coldest person ever in modern times

[13:29] herman Bergson: Stick to the subject Bejiita...

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): Advertising is also full of lies, that undermine our moral values - eg eat this powder and get thin

[13:29] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): advertiser create a need..and we believe them (sometimes)

[13:29] WAINSCOT reports: camilla Csak is on your land now!

[13:29] herman Bergson: I still do't know how to explain greed....

[13:30] Fred123 Aiten: if I aqquire lots of money but live a very basic life am I greedy?

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje it can be induced from the outside....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hmm greed is tricky subject

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): especially greedy ;)

[13:30] herman Bergson: but also from the inside....

[13:30] herman Bergson: people who never are content with what they have...

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: but the basic is wanting more and more and not willing to share it with others

[13:30] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): true

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: thats greed to me

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): people want moere and more..even if they have enough to live

[13:31] herman Bergson: question only is..WHY do we behave like that....

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: yes and even if they cant spend it

[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): Greed is often disguised as progress....

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i think it's fear

[13:31] herman Bergson: I mean....when you earn 5 million dollar a year.....

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): fear for poverty

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Hmm this is all interesting stuff

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: people who can't share will never be happy

[13:31] Celtos (firelight7): could we compare greed to a hunting instinct?

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: money is simply a status symbol, as i said they think they  are more valuable then others just because they are millionaires

[13:31] herman Bergson: next job you expect to earn at least 8 million

[13:31] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): If I baked a cake Herman, and divided it into 10 and you took 3 slices, ... that's greedy

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: money

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol Annie

[13:32] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): no it means your cake is superb Annie:)

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:32] herman Bergson: Depends on the number of guests Annie...

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): It was for here, now its 11

[13:32] herman Bergson: It also could mean that your cake is so delicious that I cant resist taking three slices

[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): exactly

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): so it is in life

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: mmm loves cake

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: yummy

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:32] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): You want 3 houses

[13:33] Kime Babenco: Hello everyone

[13:33] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Hi Kime

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: hi Kime

[13:33] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I only want diamonds..grins...

[13:33] herman Bergson: I can t imagine myself wanting three houses...

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Hi Kime, I think you missed most of it

[13:33] Kime Babenco: I am sorry :-(

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: yes what to do with 3 houses? or 20 luxyry cars

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: some have even more

[13:34] Lizzy Pleides: 2 houses are enough, 1 in rl 1 in sl

[13:34] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): or 3 slices of cake?

[13:34] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Lizzy

[13:34] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): its all the same

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:34] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): cake , houses , cars

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy !

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: i use to say dont buy more then you need

[13:34] herman Bergson: Well...you know of those rich stars who have 15 cars....!

[13:34] herman Bergson: or more

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: that you have use of

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: yes thats insane

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: 25 cars?

[13:35] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): just a tool to got to A and B

[13:35] herman Bergson: I still dont understand greed

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: what to do with all those?

[13:35] Fred123 Aiten: If it is wrong to make lots of money where is the incentive to work hard?

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: 1 ferrari and 1 rolls royce, .... we need that for several uses

[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we all have had greed when we were little kids

[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wanted all the candy

[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): all the toys

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: its not wrong but the wrong thing is making use of others and not willing to share some, a few in the world have sort of 90 % of the worlds money

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: thats not fair

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yet greed , or the drive of wanting more and more is the cause of our problems today

[13:36] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is greed

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): Fred, we should work hard on our communal happiness, not on owning as much as possible

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: true

[13:37] herman Bergson: Maybe there is a connection between increased individualism in Western culture and greed....

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope not fred

[13:37] herman Bergson: the liberal idea of everyone for himself...

[13:38] herman Bergson: No fred keep it ㋡

[13:38] Kime Babenco: If you earn it everyday? Or every month ? Or ....

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:38] herman Bergson: Just pay your taxes

[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Herman I still think your use of the word Liberal differs from mine

[13:38] Fred123 Aiten: surely if spend my $1000 then I am halping the community by keeping people in their jobs

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you can send me some

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin we have to look into that sometime...

[13:38] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :)

[13:39] herman Bergson: Well...if you have a dull moment.....

[13:39] herman Bergson: one day..

[13:39] herman Bergson: take your time to find out what Greed is....

[13:39] Celtos (firelight7): calvinism had a strong influence on the way people think in the west,people who are wealthy are loved by god

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): the problem is that if you are earning too much, someone is getting screwed....

[13:40] herman Bergson: All religions reject greed...

[13:40] Fred123 Aiten: how do you define what is too much?

[13:40] herman Bergson: that is what Thomas Aquinas already said Debbie...you are right

[13:40] Kime Babenco: But all religion temples are paved with gold...

[13:40] Celtos (firelight7): well its a pervesion of religion

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): You know if it is too much fred ;)

[13:41] herman Bergson: too much what is more than you need for survival Fred

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i beg to differ .. there are some here in the states that actually say it is god's with if you are getting it all ...

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): religions

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: religions have their extremists that read everything wrong

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: so some maybe things cause I am rich god loves me

[13:41] Fred123 Aiten: so we should all earn exactly the same amount of money?

[13:41] herman Bergson: Then this is a very unjust God, I would say...

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: look at islam the koran say nothing about blowing people up and repressing women

[13:41] Celtos (firelight7): what about the cruisades, they were greedy

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): you are rich because god wants you to be

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): No, we should all work to maximise the happiness of the community

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: same there they get everything wrong with miserable results

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: happiness is good

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:42] Kime Babenco: God's only luck is he(or she) doesn't exist

[13:42] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...and that is based on the social feeling of solidarity

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thank you herman ;)

[13:43] herman Bergson: And today's neoliberalism is just breaking down social solidarity

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): When god made white man she was only joking

[13:43] herman Bergson: With Ayn Rand as the extreme example

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:44] herman Bergson: ok...greed versus solidarity.....the global problem!

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ;-)

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: everything in the basic wellfare system like hospital scool and transport get in the hands of greedy private companies

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: not a good thing

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Solidarity is going to become more important as the energy crisis deepens

[13:45] herman Bergson: yes and in the situation of the deprletion of recsources of this earth

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): Especially with 7 Billion peeople on the planet

[13:46] Kime Babenco: Things in life and the world ... behave like water... It goes from where there is only a little.... towards the ocean, where is already plenty of it...

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: the prob is everyone buys new and new all time cause a better model is out

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: the comercials screal

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: scream

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: BUY BUY BUY!

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: and working stuff is thrown at the scrap heap

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: a true waste of resources

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): speaking of scream the painting sold yesterday for 120 million DOLLARS

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes . We still act as though there are no resource limits

[13:47] Fred123 Aiten: but miliions of people survive by supplying goods to the greedy

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: and also quality is sometime so low it brakes after a a while so they can sell even more

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: thats also waste

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yet, keep an eye open for the counter movements....liek Occupy, Greenpeace,etc....

[13:47] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): How do you share fairly amongst 7 Billion, Herman?

[13:48] Fred123 Aiten: if the greedy stopped buying stuff how would these people earn money for food

[13:48] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Agrees with Annie

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: we have enough food for all, its a question of distribution

[13:48] herman Bergson: To begin with to take care that everybody has food ans shelter

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: WOW gemma thats extreme

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): yep

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: hehe heard aboyut the auction in the news before

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): anonymous buyer

[13:49] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): The distribution of wealth between rich and poor countries is outrageous

[13:49] Debbie Dee (framdor): Weak argument, fred. We must be able to come up with a better solution than increasing the burn rate, and trickling the ashes down to the poor

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: indeed we need to share all resources more equal

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): wh has lots more i bet!!!!!!!!

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: thats a must

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: the prob is the greediness prevents that because " And what do i get for doing that"

[13:49] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Number of motor cars per 1000 of population

[13:49] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): 800 in USA

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: thats how people think

[13:49] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): 550 in Europe

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: they want something for everything they do

[13:50] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): 0.8 in China

[13:50] Kime Babenco: Would like to have such a paonting in your house ? (at first from how it looks, and secondly because the price of it ?)

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): I'd store it in the attic...lol

[13:50] herman Bergson: since World War II you see a remarkable process....

[13:50] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hopeully it i perhaps for a new museum

[13:50] Bejiita Imako: hmm don't know the scream is a well known painting for sure but its just a painting even if its the original

[13:50] herman Bergson: just after the war people had no car or vacation abroud...

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: no art expert at all

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: but like art if looks good

[13:51] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:51] herman Bergson: with the increase of wealth...a vacation abroad became "normal'

[13:51] herman Bergson: then...even with a low income...a car became normal...

[13:51] Kime Babenco: Depends on where you live and what is abroad...!

[13:51] herman Bergson: time and again we go a step further...

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): now they ask were i'm going on vacation..and they look very surprised when I say I stay in my own country..that's not normal anymore

[13:52] herman Bergson: it is a peculiar process....

[13:52] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje....

[13:52] herman Bergson: Like young graduates.....

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: today everyone in sweden goes to thailand now and then it seems

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I like England and stay here usually

[13:53] herman Bergson: the first have to make a trip to thailand, Laos, Cambodja etc...

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: netherland is a small country

[13:53] Celtos (firelight7): i live in greece,hehe

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): but a beautifull one..

[13:53] herman Bergson: I once had a graduate who got a job offered...

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: i think turkey was far enough, cant sit on a plane for eternity just to get somewheere

[13:53] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): But people from Cambodia don't take annual holidays in Europe

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: yesss:-))

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: and Turkey was nice for sure

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:53] herman Bergson: He didnt accept it because he was entitlted to a vacation first he said

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: <= loves cheese and maatjes :-))

[13:53] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): this country is so big it is like a foreign vacation to go to the west cppast

[13:54] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Lizzy...cheese and maatjes..

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and costs as much

[13:54] Kime Babenco: A luxury problem ...

[13:54] herman Bergson: Well..I geuss we all are focused on greed now enough ^_^

[13:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): I want some more...

[13:54] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ LOL ♥

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: MORE AND MORE AND MORE

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:55] herman Bergson: So may I thank you for you for the nice discussion and your participation

[13:55] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): aren't we all greedy??look in the supermarket..what a choice wehave!

[13:55] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Should not the people of Cambodia, and Thailand not be entitles to the same?

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:55] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): entitled

[13:55] herman Bergson: You'll get More indeed Bejiita

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: Thank youu!

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: thats good

[13:55] herman Bergson: Next lecture will be on Thomas More and his utopia

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: cause this is interesting

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): thanks herman....

[13:55] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:55] herman Bergson: thank you all

[13:56] Celtos (firelight7): Thank you! :)

[13:56] Fred123 Aiten: many thanks Herman

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ok co soon again all

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:56] Kime Babenco: The only thing that nultiples when you share it is happiness

[13:56] Debbie Dee (framdor): that was stimulating...

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: thats true

[13:56] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): hmmm

[13:56] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:56] Kime Babenco: multiplies*

[13:57] herman Bergson: smiles..

[13:57] herman Bergson: you expect more...?? ㋡

[13:58] herman Bergson: OK..next Tuesday ^_^

[13:58] Kime Babenco: OK

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: cu then ㋡

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: hugs all

[13:58] Kime Babenco: Sure

[13:58] Fred123 Aiten: bye everyone

[13:58] Kime Babenco: Sorry I missed last Tuesday

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): Bye kime

[13:58] herman Bergson: Can happenKime

[13:59] Lizzy Pleides: good byee everybody

[13:59] Kime Babenco: Bye everyone... until soon

[13:59] herman Bergson: Bye Lizzy ㋡

[13:59] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Bye Lizzy

[13:59] Kime Babenco: again

[13:59] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): thank you Herman..it was very interesting:)

[13:59] herman Bergson: thank you Beertje

[14:00] herman Bergson: you're welcome

[14:00] Celtos (firelight7): bye everybody

[14:00] herman Bergson: Bye Celtos

[14:00] Debbie Dee (framdor): Bye Herman ;) Thank you for a great lecture

[14:00] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): bye everyon3e

[14:00] herman Bergson: Bye Debbie ㋡

[14:01] Annie Brightstar (anniebrightstar): Good bye Herman

401: The Utopia of the Free Market - The Birth of the Free Market

We live in a market society. You could think "Oh well, nothing special about that. Haven't there been markets all the time?"

Of course, the answer is "yes'. Exchanging and trading goods is of all ages.

Both mammoth hunters of the Russian steppes and the Cro-Magnon hunters in CentralFrance were found to have shells from the Mediterranean sea that they should have acquired through trade.

We 'll find all through history, from the Ancient Greek  till the 16 century examples of trade and markets. Economy in those days looks like to have a market structure.

But there is a fundamental difference between these traditional markets and the market society we live in today.

The markets in antiquity were not the means for communities in those days to solve their fundamental economic problems.

The local market was based mainly on barter,  mutual exchange of good. Money played hardly a roll there.  The barter was embedded in  reciprocity relations between people who knew each other.

Such markets were only complementary to the other economic activities in a subsistence economy and in that sense not the precursors of our market society.

It will be clear that the Church, who dominated life in the Middle Ages, was suspicious about trade and market.

The profession of merchant was closely related to greed and lust, which were two of the Deadly Sins. Therefore merchants were in really low regard. Clergy and nobility looked down on merchants.

In the 18th century there still was a law in France  that declared that every noble person who wanted to become a merchant  had to abandon his title.

From  a philosophical perspective you could say that economic thinking in those days was dominated by the concept of "the just price" of a product.

Finding its origin in the "Ethica" of Aristotle  (384 BC – 322 BC) through Thomas Aquinas (1225 – 1274) this concept became even part of religious thought.

"If someone would be greatly helped by something belonging to someone else, and the seller not similarly harmed by losing it, the seller must not sell for a higher price: 

because the usefulness that goes to the buyer comes not from the seller, but from the buyer's needy condition." — Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, 

This is really an amazing anti - market statement. , where our market is controlled by a pricing based on supply and demand and making profit.

When in the 17th century Europe developed more and more stronger national states, there also grew what you could call national markets.

The government tried to control the national economy in those days. Mercantilism, as it was called, was rejected by Britain and France by the mid-19th century. 

The British Empire embraced free-trade and used its power as the financial center of the world to promote the same.

When Clobert (1665–1683), Minister of Finances in France asked the Silk merchants of Lyon what he could do to increase their production, they answered "Laissez faire!"

In other words, mind your own business, cancel all your rules and regulations that restrict trade etc. Let the market be the truth. 

The idea of the just price was slowly replaced by the idea of the market price. When by eliminating "unnatural" government intervention the free market you let take its course,  there will spontaneously emerge the truth.

And thus we discovered the Utopia of the Free Market.

The Discussion

[13:21] herman Bergson: Thank you ㋡

[13:22] herman Bergson: If you have any questions or remarks...the floor is yours

[13:22] Debbie Dee: and the truth shall set us free?

[13:22] Mick Nerido: how does lending money fit into this?

[13:23] herman Bergson: Well..that is a complex matter

[13:23] herman Bergson: first of all it has to do with early use of money....

[13:23] herman Bergson: I'll discuss that in the next lecture....

[13:23] Debbie Dee: How did we miss the fact that the strong get rich, and the poor get screwed in this utopian ideal?

[13:24] herman Bergson: but the point is....

[13:24] herman Bergson: I'll come to that Debbie..

[13:24] herman Bergson: How was money used.....

[13:24] herman Bergson: in an economy based on interchange of goods and services....

[13:25] herman Bergson: the basic Idea is that I need a pair of shoes.....but not right now....soon....

[13:25] herman Bergson: but the other fellow wants my grain....

[13:25] herman Bergson: now

[13:26] herman Bergson: The next step is that you can buy shoes for 10 shells... for instance...

[13:26] herman Bergson: then we have to bargain how much grain the other gets for 10 shells....sothat I later can buy shoes

[13:27] herman Bergson: Then the next step.....

[13:27] herman Bergson: the shells symbol for a good become a goal in themselves...

[13:27] herman Bergson: And here we come to Mick's question...

[13:28] herman Bergson: Mick needs shoes, but has nothing to offer in return....

[13:28] herman Bergson: I have 10 shells and offer then to Mick...

[13:28] herman Bergson: In return he must give me 12 shells later.....for my helping out him now

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: and so an idea of the banks was born

[13:29] herman Bergson: Believe me...this is a tricky story which we'll discuss next this day too

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: the

[13:29] herman Bergson: Yes something like that bejiita......

[13:30] herman Bergson: and all based on greed.....

[13:30] Mick Nerido: wasn't charging interest forbidden by the Church?

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: thats exactly the principle the banks use

[13:30] herman Bergson: Yes Mick as it is still by the Islam if I am not mistaken

[13:30] herman Bergson: that is the point....

[13:30] Fred123 Aiten: are you saying that paying interest is bad

[13:30] herman Bergson: Next lecture I'll discuss the birth of greed with you...

[13:31] herman Bergson: no Fred

[13:31] Mick Nerido: Only Jews in Europe could charge interest...

[13:31] herman Bergson: I dont know whether it is good or bad....

[13:31] herman Bergson: It is just part of the economic system.....making money with money.....

[13:31] Fred123 Aiten: assuming there is inflation there has to be interest

[13:32] Debbie Dee: interest is inflationary...

[13:32] Mick Nerido: perhaps interest causes inflation

[13:32] herman Bergson: I am not an economist......

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:33] herman Bergson: I don't even know how inflation comes in to being...

[13:33] herman Bergson: unless it is caused by people asking more money for goods and services out of greed

[13:33] Fred123 Aiten: supply & demand, as demand increases so do prices

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: and then payouts go up and so forth and the money loose their value

[13:34] herman Bergson: that happens,,,yes.....but is that a law of nature???

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: guess thats part of how it works

[13:34] herman Bergson: It is indeed ㋡

[13:34] herman Bergson: And we are tied to it by hands and feet

[13:35] herman Bergson: It is an amazing phenomenon...this financial world

[13:35] Fred123 Aiten: so there is a fixed price for everything so everyone makes the same profit

[13:35] Debbie Dee: In Zeitgeist - addendum - a movie about the banking system

[13:35] Fred123 Aiten: that reminds me of communism

[13:35] herman Bergson: Well in Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand they even had a funnier solution....

[13:36] Debbie Dee: they argue that for every loan, after payback the shortfall is the interest

[13:36] herman Bergson: What is the shortfall Debbie?

[13:36] Debbie Dee: so each loan creates a debt, that is not covered by increased production - causing inflation

[13:36] Debbie Dee: well, you borrow 100$, pay back 110

[13:37] herman Bergson: I see, yes, that sounds logical

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:37] Debbie Dee: so every transaction generates a 10$ requirement

[13:37] Mick Nerido: Why would anyone lend money if not for interest?

[13:38] Fred123 Aiten: you need compensation for the risk

[13:38] herman Bergson: Ask the Credit Card companies Mick ㋡

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Fred....the person who took the loan could die to early ㋡

[13:39] Fred123 Aiten: or the asset on which the loan is secured plummets in value

[13:39] herman Bergson: Like you take a life insurance when you take a mortgage, to protect your heirs from financial disaster

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: the banks want everyone to go over to card but there is some problems cause they take a fee for every transaction small buys make the stores go with loss

[13:39] Mick Nerido: A loan of money is like a lone of a horse

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: so they don't want to take cards for small buys but the baks try force them

[13:40] herman Bergson: Hello Clerisse

[13:40] Mick Nerido: u return the horse plus a little of what u got with the horse...

[13:41] Clerisse Beeswing: Sorry I am late professor

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: hi Clerisses

[13:41] herman Bergson: I think we are doing pretty well on basic economic principles ^_^

[13:41] Clerisse Beeswing: hello Bejiita

[13:41] Fred123 Aiten: what if you got nothing with the horse

[13:41] Fred123 Aiten: the lender loses

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: as the banks do here that would mean you cant sell low cost small items any longer cause the stores loose money when they sell them

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: cause of the bank fees

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: the cash less society

[13:42] herman Bergson: Taking interest is for covering risks as Fred said...

[13:43] herman Bergson: Sounds reasonable...

[13:43] herman Bergson: but there you see how complex everything has become...

[13:43] herman Bergson: for how to establish the price of that risk

[13:43] Mick Nerido: Credit ratings

[13:44] herman Bergson: Oh yes...there are a lot of systems at work...

[13:44] Mick Nerido: Fred what did u borrow my horse for?

[13:44] herman Bergson: In the Netherlands for instance the housing market has come to a complete standstill

[13:44] Fred123 Aiten: to gather wheat in from my field

[13:45] herman Bergson: because the banks calculate the risks of new mortgages in a certain way

[13:45] Mick Nerido: so u give me a little wheat..

[13:45] Fred123 Aiten: sorry, it poured with rain on the day of harvest and the entire crop was ruined

[13:45] Debbie Dee: So, why can't you give mick some wheat in return?

[13:45] Fred123 Aiten: no wheat I'm afraid

[13:45] Debbie Dee: lol

[13:46] Fred123 Aiten: mick took a risk by lending me his horse and he lost out

[13:46] Mick Nerido: u r headed for debter's prison lol

[13:46] herman Bergson: I think this was very instructive with regards to basic economical ideas.....

[13:46] Fred123 Aiten: lol

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:47] herman Bergson: I'd suggest to continue this discussion next Thursday when I'll discuss Aristotle on economics and greed....

[13:47] Mick Nerido: Thanks everyone gotta go

[13:47] herman Bergson: Ok Mick....

[13:47] Debbie Dee: Thanks Herman....

[13:47] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ㋡

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: some more interesting stuff

[13:47] Fred123 Aiten: thanks Herman

[13:47] Mick Nerido: rides off into the night...

[13:47] Bejiita Imako: oki time to get back to the pool party

[13:48] Debbie Dee: Food for thought...

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: cu soon

[13:48] Clerisse Beeswing: Thanks professor it was interesting sorry I am late again

[13:48] Fred123 Aiten: bye everyone

[13:48] Mick Nerido: thanks herman

[13:48] Debbie Dee: Hi Clerisse

[13:48] Clerisse Beeswing: hello Framdor

[13:49] herman Bergson: what a timing.....

[13:49] Debbie Dee: Oh well, off to bed.

[13:49] herman Bergson: Just crashed

[13:49] Debbie Dee: lucky. Bye prof :0

[13:50] herman Bergson: Ok...see you on Thursday ㋡

[13:50] Debbie Dee: yes :)

[13:50] Debbie Dee: bye annie

[13:50] Annie Brightstar: bye Debbie