406: The Utopia of the Free Market - unveiled

-quote

"...every individual necessarily labours to render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. 

By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, 

and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by AN INVISIBLE HAND [caps by h B] to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for the society that it was no part of it.

 By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good." -end quote

In this passage from Book IV, Chapter 2, Adam Smith, explains one of the central mechanisms how a market society works. Every individual works for an income to buy products, keeping his own safety and benefit in mind. 

This is not bad nor wrong because thus he   - tho it is not his intention - often serves the public interest. 

Adam Smith was a deeply religious man, he saw the "invisible hand" as the mechanism by which a beneficent God controls a universe in which human happiness is maximized. 

Here you are confronted with the deepest roots of the Utopia of the Free Market: the belief that what happens in the market is regulated by some kind of "natural" conditions or laws (God?): the basic beliefs of liberalism.

Chapter 7 of Book I is fascinating reading. Just its title to begin with: "Of the Natural and Market Prize of Commodities". You see?! There exists a natural prize of products.

-quote

"When the price of any commodity is neither more nor less than what is sufficient to pay the rent of the land, the wages of the labour, 

and the profits of the stock employed in raising, preparing, and bringing it to market, according to their natural rates, the commodity is then sold for what may be called its natural price."

-end quote

In that chapter he describes the causes of fluctuations in prizes. For instance,

the increased competition among manufacturers and increased supply would reduce the price of a product to its production costs plus a small margin, the "natural price".

Smith was convinced that, although people often were driven by selfishness and greed, competition in the free market  will benefit the community as a whole.

Contrary to how Rand, Greenspan and Friedman  interpret Adam Smith, 

he did not propagate a social system in which citizens act selfish, he just described the reality: people act in self-interest. 

And second, Smith did not claimed that any form of self-interest contributed to the public interest. In his opinion self-interest is not always good but he did not think it was necessarily bad. 

Adam Smith criticized those who act solely out of greed and warned that "All for ourselves and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind." (Book III, Chap. 4)

Smith was by no means an advocate of laissez faire, he does not claim that the free market can solve all economic problems. For example, with respect to regulation, he says:

"Whenever the legislature attempts to regulate the differences between masters and their workmen, its counsellors are always the masters. 

When the regulation, therefore, is in favour of the workmen, it is always just and equitable; but it is sometimes otherwise when in favour of the masters. (Book 1, Chap. 10).

Nowhere in "The Wealth of Nations" you can catch Adam Smith on an absolute belief in the Free Market, like you find with Rand, Greenspan and neo-liberals.

They just inflated some aspects of his economic theory and abused these for their Utopia, sometimes also called "The American Dream".

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you.. ㋡

[13:23] herman Bergson: listens to the silence...

[13:23] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): wow... really a lot to think about

[13:23] Kime Babenco: ;-)

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): at least he is more balanced

[13:24] herman Bergson: I hear you think indeed....

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:24] Ampfan Walkenberg: very interesting

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not completely clear on his view of the worker s and the masters

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Ok, the cost model in the natural prize neglects the true cost of energy and materials

[13:24] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): i think he really is right about the workers and the masters.. hasn't much changed since

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): what counsellors

[13:24] herman Bergson: The basic idea is that Smith is the first one who describes the working of the market based on supply and demand

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: yes seems so

[13:25] herman Bergson: Indeed Alarice!

[13:25] Kime Babenco: I guess Adam Smith's thinking about a god who wnated maximum human happiness… that one really failed

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: the natural prize id say is created by this

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: supply and demand

[13:25] Debbie Dee (framdor): In a free market system, the result is pillaging of the commons for free.

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:25] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that is good supply and demand

[13:25] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): yes... but one doesn't really find this

[13:25] herman Bergson: Noo Bejiita...and yes Kime I guess you are right

[13:25] Kime Babenco: Market price...

[13:25] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): too many other factors come with it

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: however many companies seems also to compete each other out of buisness ex many retail stores here for electronics

[13:26] herman Bergson: Wait....

[13:26] herman Bergson: Here is the catch.....

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): The problem is that the cost model is still wrong - who pays for fukushima?

[13:26] Kime Babenco: What about fixed prices... For example.. if you like to take a plane or bus or train... Fixed price ... Full is full

[13:26] herman Bergson: The neo-liberals refer to Smith's his economic theory....

[13:27] herman Bergson: But what they overlook is that Smith was an observer.....of HIS time....

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): and who pays to clean up the open cast coal mines

[13:27] herman Bergson: real markets...small factories and workshops etc…

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yeah ..just like Jesus was talking about his time too

[13:28] herman Bergson: Just imagine what Adam Smith would think of our world...where markets are manipulated by commercials and advertisements…

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hah

[13:28] Kime Babenco: of course

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): very different

[13:28] herman Bergson: where banks are not boring banks but playing russian roulette with our savings

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: indeed thats not a good thing

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): and the prize is always too low - no costs relating to environment or depletion

[13:29] herman Bergson: But the Objectivists...the Greenspans and Friedmans and Hayeks adore the free market reffering to Smith...

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): And constant pressure to consume more cheap junk

[13:29] herman Bergson: Believing in that INVISIBLE HAND themselves

[13:30] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): but Smith probably saw it differently.... he wouldn't agree to it now I suppose...

[13:30] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): ?!

[13:30] herman Bergson: Keep in mind our theme....the UTOPIA of the free market

[13:30] Kime Babenco: It was as well mentioned there became larger companies in stead of smaller... So was said lower prices... which is not at all correct ! Maybe a higher salary for the CEO

[13:30] herman Bergson: I think Smith would go crazy now, Alarice....

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): well, the utopia is a nightmare.

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): me too

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): but some refer to him often as a basis for their business decisions

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes...it is a nightmare....

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:31] herman Bergson: They talk about billions today....

[13:31] herman Bergson: anything goes...

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: dreaming of the impossible trying to realize it in practize and it ends in disaster

[13:32] Bejiita Imako: cause it doesnt work for real

[13:32] herman Bergson: loosing billions..what is the problem....and so on

[13:32] Mick Nerido: where will it end?

[13:32] herman Bergson: Well Mick...I asked that myself....

[13:32] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): yes... it would probably stress him to see how what he described developed over the time!

[13:32] Kime Babenco: Why do prices always rice ? They say a shortage for a while..., but when that is over, the prices don't fall again...

[13:32] herman Bergson: But that isn't in fact such a big question at all....

[13:32] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): and I don't think anyone knows the solution at all

[13:33] herman Bergson: It is pretty common practice that a country goes bankrupt....

[13:33] herman Bergson: First one was Spain in 1557

[13:33] herman Bergson: and Spain is still there ^_^

[13:33] herman Bergson: Argentina...six times...

[13:33] herman Bergson: France too

[13:33] Velvet (velvet.braham): Greece is having a hard time now

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: six times?

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: hmm yes

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: but looking good at all for greece

[13:34] herman Bergson: Germany two times...1923 and 1945....now the richest economy in europe

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: not

[13:34] Mick Nerido: It's like a RL monopoly game...

[13:34] herman Bergson: Yes Mick….

[13:34] Bejiita Imako: sort of indeed

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): but in RL when you default on a loan, your property is repossessed

[13:34] Fred123 Aiten: why are we worried about Greece then?

[13:34] herman Bergson: Go straight to the jail.....

[13:34] Velvet (velvet.braham): you can't really do that with a country

[13:34] Kime Babenco: Countries and companies can go bankrupt, and start again... Try as a person ! They will find you...

13:34] herman Bergson: I am not....:-)

[13:35] herman Bergson: I htink they are best of leaving the euro-zone...

[13:35] herman Bergson: go bankruopt...

[13:35] herman Bergson: devaluation of 50 to 70% percent so the best export country in Europe

[13:35] Fred123 Aiten: Then we will never get back the money we have lent them

[13:35] herman Bergson: They'll get rich

[13:36] Kime Babenco: What countries did you had in mind ?

[13:36] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): better then giving them more and more ....

[13:36] herman Bergson: Don't know about that Fred..but do you really miss it? :-))

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: why Greece have a such hard time is also cause they haven't any industry only whine and cheese and such no real production

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: no car industry ect

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: that can make the economy spin

[13:37] herman Bergson: and because the country is corrupt in many layers

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): what will it really do to all other economies if they do that herman

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i hear it will be chaos

[13:37] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): oh...that is right.. but the problem is their attitude... and that needs. a looonnngg time to get changed

[13:37] herman Bergson: I think..not much Gemma....

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): hope not

[13:37] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): not so sure

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: greek food os great but you cant power a countrys economy with that you need a real industry and they dont have that at all

[13:38] Kime Babenco: There you say... corruption is not very attractive to companies to settle down there... So what will they export (even at low price) ? Retsina and olives ?

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: never seen "made in greece" in a product

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh i have

[13:38] Mick Nerido: the country is the same after bankrupt, just the money is worth less

[13:38] Kime Babenco: Neither me

[13:38] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): oh there are Bejiita

[13:38] herman Bergson: Yes Kime ㋡

[13:38] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): olive oil, olives :-)

[13:38] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): not really much tho

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oh

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: beside feta cheese and olives, no cars or such products

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): pottery

[13:38] Velvet (velvet.braham): the problem with Greece is that they lied about their stats when entering the Eurozone

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: or machinery

[13:38] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): laces

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: in general

[13:38] herman Bergson: Well..let's return to the main subject....

[13:39] Velvet (velvet.braham): it devalues everyone

[13:39] herman Bergson: The idea of the Free Market...

[13:39] Kime Babenco: Because all demonstrations and strikes they are keeping the tourists away as well

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: that too the tourist industry seem their biggest income

[13:39] herman Bergson: For Adam Smith the idea was based on a deep belief in God and his invisible hand...

[13:40] Kime Babenco: I am not sure biggest , but certainly important... You know China already bought a lot there ?

[13:40] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): well.. he didn't count in the human greed

[13:40] herman Bergson: Rand and Greenspan generalized his ideas out of context and made self-interest a virtue....

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): stil doing that

[13:40] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): along with many economists here

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): agreed.

[13:41] herman Bergson: Smith observed that man acts on self-interest.....and he believed that at the end all would turn out well because of that invisible hand in the market

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): I suppose that the counter-argument is that self interest is also in the best interest of the economy

[13:41] herman Bergson: Yes Velvet...

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): but it is not since self interest is greed these days.

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): So if I want to work hard and do well, that also benefits the economy

[13:41] Kime Babenco: Maybe they should bring the ex leaders of such countries like Greece, bring to justice in The Hague

[13:42] Kime Babenco: THough it will not solve a lot

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): along with george bush

[13:42] Velvet (velvet.braham): I can't argue with that. The more money I make, the more I spend.

[13:42] herman Bergson: but the hot issue is....how much government regulation should there be to channel this drive of self-interest...

[13:42] Fred123 Aiten: only providing you spend your money Kime

[13:42] herman Bergson: That is the debate of today...

[13:42] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:42] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: very interesting

[13:43] Mick Nerido: Economic models work for a time and then fail as things change

[13:43] herman Bergson: the most extreme form of control we have seen in communism…..conclusion..doesn't work...

[13:43] Debbie Dee (framdor): Since there is no invisible hand, we need some new leaders with altruistic objectives

[13:43] Velvet (velvet.braham): So, the "invisible hand" works as long as the majority of people have a good work ethic.

[13:43] herman Bergson: at th eother and the Tea party ideas.....

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we saw an example of non regulations this week with jp morgan bank loosing 2,000,000,000 of their money

[13:43] Kime Babenco: Therefore those are not models, just fashion apearances

[13:43] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): maybe more

[13:43] herman Bergson: Yes Gemma.....

[13:43] Alarice von Doobie (alarice.beaumont): yeah.. incredible again

[13:44] Qwark Allen: omg´

[13:44] herman Bergson: Whose money Gemma?????

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): mine. I have money in that bank.

[13:44] herman Bergson: That is the scary question

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: aaw thats no good

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they keep saying it was "their money " not depositers

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): however

[13:44] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): they wer in the bail out a ffew years back

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): money is created from debt.

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): byte the government!!!!

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): but my money is protected, unless too many people withdraw at once

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): OUR money

[13:45] Fred123 Aiten: if they lost 2 billion who gained it?

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): bad trades

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): they made poor investments

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol. it is only printed....

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:45] Kime Babenco: By printing or pressing from machines

[13:45] herman Bergson: yes Fred...the other side of the medal :-)

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): Debbie, not even printed!

[13:45] Qwark Allen: withdraw money is what greeks are doing now

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: yes its we that provide the bank with money so their loosing our money then not theirs

[13:45] Velvet (velvet.braham): money exists only as numbers in the computers of the federal reserve

[13:45] Qwark Allen: 894 mills in o ne day, 2 days ago

[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): At least here in the US

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): So where does 2.4 trillion dollars of quantitative easing come in ?

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): it is moves like this that banks sshould nto be able to do

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well.....enough to think about for the weekend...and check your bank accounts ㋡

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): lol

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:46] Velvet (velvet.braham): they are shuffling game pieces around a board

[13:46] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation....

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): lol thanks for the tip herman

[13:46] Kime Babenco: If you liive for hundred years, that's 3,333 billion seconds

[13:46] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ♥ Thank Youuuuuuuuuu!! ♥

[13:46] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): 80-89-s party today

[13:47] Velvet (velvet.braham): Thank you everyone!

[13:47] Fred123 Aiten: Thank you herman

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Herman - excellent topic.

[13:47] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman!

[13:47] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆** **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:47] Qwark Allen: TY

[13:47] herman Bergson: My pleasure ^_^

405: The Utopia of the Free Market - Adam Smith

The ideas of Ayn Rand in her utopia "Atlas Shrugged" (1957) can hardly be called original. Like she borrowed almost literally the ideas on property from John Locke (1632 - 1704), thus she took the ideas of Adam Smith (1723 - 1790) on self-interest too.

Adam Smith, a philosopher of the Scottish Enlightenment like his contemporary David Hume (1711 - 1776), was a brilliant observer.

In 1759 he published his "Theory of the Moral Sentiments". Not some metaphysical treatise on ethics, but an attempt to deduce from observation general moral principles.

The same approach we find in his famous "An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" from 1776.

You really should read it, or at least a few chapters.

You will be amazed and become a witness of the first steps into a market society, the first attempts of mass production, the division of labor,

and the immense important discovery by Adam Smith, that the value of products depends on  the labor that is put in. Thus, the real commodity of value in an economy is labor.

It is really exciting to read his observations and interpretations. His style is clear and very readable. At the end of the lecture I'll give you information where to find "The Wealth of Nations" as it is usually called.

An example: -quote

In almost every other race of animals each individual, when it is grown up to maturity, is entirely independent, and in its natural state has occasion for the assistance of no other living creature. 

But man has almost constant occasion for the help of his brethren, and it is in vain for him to expect it from their benevolence only.

He will be more likely to prevail if he can interest their self-love in his favour, and show them that it is for their own advantage to do for him what he requires of them. (p.16, An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations,1776,  Adelaide edition 2008)

- end quote

By the way, did you notice the expression "every other race of animals"?  We have to wait for Darwin at least another 100 years. Did Smith see th human being already as an animal among animals, only a more special animal?

And then on the next page probably the most often quoted passage: - quote

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. 

We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages. Nobody but a beggar chooses to depend chiefly upon the benevolence of his fellow-citizens.

- end quote

Ayn Rand couldn't get it better. A clear statement that the basic drive of the human being is self-love, or, as she preferred to call it: self-interest.

Just listen to this: - quote

I find it remarkable that our ideas about the beneficence of competition have remained essentially unchanged since the time of the Enlightenment, when they were first formulated. 

This was mainly due to one man: Adam Smith. In a sense, the history of capitalism and the competitive market is still the story of the ups and downs of the ideas of Adam Smith.

- end quote

From the biography of Allen Greenspan (2007). He may be right within the context of the primitive economy of the utopian Atlantis in "Atlas Shrugged", but for the rest he looks at Adam Smith too much with his Randian Objectivist glasses.

As I said in the beginning, Adam Smith writes as a brilliant observer, but an observer of HIS time. He generalizes, what he observes in the period of 1768 to 1778, the time he worked on "The Wealth of the Nations". But to make it into general economic laws, like Greenspan suggested, is one a step too far.

As I promised you, I'll tell you where to find this book for free. There are two great places of free ebooks of world literature in many fiefs: Gutenberg.org and the University of Adelaide, Australia.

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/smith/adam/s64w/complete.html#chapter4

If your print routine has that option, you can print the book to .PDF format.

If you have the opportunity you definitely should at least page through Book One of "The wealth of Nations". You will be amazed and impressed.

To be continued…

The Discussion

[13:23] herman Bergson: Thank you ㋡

[13:23] Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman

[13:23] herman Bergson: Got a URL of the Archive you mentioned Penelope?

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks herman

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Its good for us when things are out of copyright

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Professor

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes - like open knowledge.

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin.....there is so much available now...

[13:24] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): http://archive.org/index.php

[13:24] herman Bergson: thnx Penelope

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yeah thanks doll

[13:25] herman Bergson: Besides that Google is digitizing books too, but I dont know a URL for what Google is doing

[13:25] Kime Babenco: My first notion about something mentioned... Humans are animals, is a bit extreme... I think... Of course we are biological and have a natural feeling to survive... But it's not comparable I think

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: i found this: The Project Gutenberg website is for human users only. so its not for animals, isn't it?

[13:25] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): tugs Lizzy's braid from behind

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): For some animals... us

[13:25] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): (Lizzy, behave!)

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): In what way are we not animals, just with big brains?

[13:26] herman Bergson: Well...it is remarkable that Smith already assumed that th ehuman being belongs to the animal kingdom

[13:26] Jaelle Faerye: oh who said we had big brains?

[13:26] herman Bergson: I cant read it otherwise

[13:26] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): so not for me Lizzy? being a 'Beer'?

[13:27] herman Bergson: It surprised me at least....his words

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Some of these apparent philosophical arguments are just arguments about the meanings of words

[13:27] Kime Babenco: Not only... behaviour... as well... And we don't have such as called animal instinct... A lower feeling of intuition maybe, if not mislead by the brains

[13:27] Lizzy Pleides: he was far ahead of his time

[13:27] herman Bergson: Let's keep it a bit serious and to the point plz ㋡

[13:27] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): yes, Prof is trying to make a legitimate point

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): who's not serious

[13:27] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): it's very worth discussing

[13:28] herman Bergson: Most important point in his Wealth of the NAtions is the fact that he clearly stated that labor is the real value of things

[13:28] Mick Nerido: Productivity advances make nations wealthier...

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): So one way we are different is self interest motivates our actions

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): maybe he was not far ahead of his time..maybe we are oldfashion in thinking of the free market

[13:28] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): but Prof, doesn't that lead directly to Marx, yes?

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes Penelope....

[13:29] herman Bergson: and in fact to our time too.....

[13:29] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): AND to Ayn Rand"

[13:29] herman Bergson: we have the "rule" that everybody should work....

[13:29] herman Bergson: those who can but do not work we call unemployed…

[13:30] Mick Nerido: or inherited there wealth

[13:30] herman Bergson: so employment is a great value of the free market

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Strange idea.... surely we would be better off with less stuff and more philosophy?

[13:31] herman Bergson: Fact is that in the utopia of Thomas More working was a must too....laziness was forbidden...

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I think that is a silly attitude

[13:31] herman Bergson: well full employment has become a believe of our times....

[13:31] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the people who are unemployed are not nessecarely lazy

[13:31] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): oh I see where Prof is going

[13:31] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): but Prof

[13:32] Mick Nerido: Goes back to Adam and Eve...

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): It reminds me of the workplace boss that just looks to see if you are busy

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): But say we all had friday off - then it wouldn't be laziness - just scaling our efforts better.

[13:32] Penelope Apparatchik (penelope.grau): surely this kind of ethic predated the 1700's?

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): and not at what you achieve

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I like efficiency

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): economy of effort if possible

[13:33] herman Bergson: full emplyment was not an idea in the Middle Ages at all...

[13:33] Ana (anasyro): i think these questions put in the discussion can be better anwered by using some of the more actual analysts of our time...like habermas and the tradition that was the basis of his writings

[13:33] herman Bergson: subsistance economy then prevailed

[13:33] Ana (anasyro): somehow we try to connect existential issues with functional ones

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I've heard they had quite a nice life in those days, lots of leisure time

[13:33] Ana (anasyro): and that does not explain the dynamics between them

[13:34] herman Bergson: Our situation is now quite different from Adam Smith's situation....

[13:34] Mick Nerido: The wealthy in Spain for example distain manual labor...

[13:34] herman Bergson: But his analysis is so basic and clear

[13:35] Kime Babenco: Being employed or having a job is a very elastic expression... One can work for a company, or themselves... A fixed salary working from 9 to 5 , or running a business... Or feeling to be part of it ... Inspiration... Not ?

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Mick....manual labor has been disdained tot 1700 or so....

[13:35] Ana (anasyro): bye...have fun

[13:36] Mick Nerido: The unemployed are the new serfs

[13:36] Kime Babenco: I am not promoting any kind of job...

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): serfs used to work though!

[13:37] herman Bergson: I still have no understanding of how to look at our present situation...

[13:37] herman Bergson: this so called free market, which Smith saw emerge in his time.

[13:38] Kime Babenco: As I already told in a previous meeting... The world has seen already the end of communism... and today we are facing that capitalism is not working either

[13:38] herman Bergson: So if you have the opportunity....read at least a few chapters of book one of The Wealth of Nations….

[13:38] Kime Babenco: Not in the way we have had so far

[13:38] herman Bergson: and compare it with our present situation

[13:39] herman Bergson: true Kime

[13:39] herman Bergson: so many are looking for a new answer....

[13:40] herman Bergson: From Tea Party to Keyens

[13:40] WAINSCOT reports: Fred123 Aiten is on your land now!

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): Any answer has to address over population and over consumption fairly

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): external drivers that never existed before

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: the answer can only be a more authoritarian system with more rules

[13:41] herman Bergson: yes....but look at the situation in Greece....

[13:41] herman Bergson: a situation I don't understand at all....

[13:41] Kime Babenco: WE have to find a middle way... a common way... Of course it's a bit normal that someone who works very hard earns more than someone who is unemployed and not even trying to find a job.... But on the other hand, a society is rewarded on what it does for the weak ones... = human society... Otherwise we are animals = survival of the toughest

[13:42] herman Bergson: On the one hand you have had decennia of governments that cheated...

[13:42] herman Bergson: manipulated figures and took the money from the EU

[13:42] herman Bergson: on the other hand there is the population that voted for their governments...

[13:43] Jaelle Faerye: bye all I have to run

[13:43] herman Bergson: and now Greece is forced by the EU to severe financial reductions...

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: the greece don't admit that they cheated

[13:43] herman Bergson: and the people is protesting.....

[13:44] herman Bergson: as if there is a people that is in its rights and a goverment that isnt...

[13:44] Kime Babenco: It's not only that: The financial first rule is that stock holding is the highest risc to earn money... Governments should have never rescued any bank... only paying those people who had save their money there... Not the risc takers

[13:44] herman Bergson: The country is deeply corrupt...

[13:44] herman Bergson: and they don't admit it

[13:45] herman Bergson: Their tax system and its civil servants are corrupt...

[13:45] Fred123 Aiten: can still listen from outside

[13:45] herman Bergson: these are know facts

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): <- quietly listening

[13:45] herman Bergson: I realy don't see how to solve such a situation

[13:46] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i presume we..that means the EU..are loosing our money to Greece

[13:46] Mick Nerido: Greece will leave the EU

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: in Greece they stop working at the age of 55, in France 60 and in Germany 67

[13:46] Kime Babenco: Yes, very probably... try to bring them for justice... would be hard... costs even more and will not help... Freeze all their families goods and accounts in any country... (if possible !!!)

[13:47] herman Bergson: Netherlands 65

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): South-Africa 65

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): greece is going to bankruptcy

[13:47] herman Bergson: Just the idea of stopping at 55.....we already have problems financing 65

[13:47] herman Bergson: Hello Your Majesty

[13:48] QueenOfNorway Alex raises hand

[13:48] Kime Babenco: That's an idea of when people lived for average as long as 65 years

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: hi queenie, take a seat:-)

[13:48] herman Bergson: Could be Kime

[13:48] QueenOfNorway Alex: oooops

[13:48] Kime Babenco: Remember the Beatles... "will you still love me when I am 64 ?"

[13:49] Qwark Allen: press shfit+arrow to get hand down

[13:49] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): ow..that 's óld!

[13:49] QueenOfNorway Alex: i cannot hear the audio

[13:49] herman Bergson: There is no audio Your Majesty....

[13:49] herman Bergson: We are the silent majority

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:49] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:49] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:49] QueenOfNorway Alex: oh dear :)

[13:49] herman Bergson: Anyway…

[13:50] herman Bergson: try to get hold on The Wealth of NAtions and read a few chapters of book one....

[13:50] Kime Babenco: Yes

[13:50] herman Bergson: it helps to get a better understanding of the free market idea in 1778

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): I think that all efforts to regain financial stability hinge on changing the model of free energy, ever expanding markets, and consumption. We can't eat our way out of resource depletion.

[13:51] herman Bergson: I agree Debbie.....

[13:51] Debbie Dee (framdor): ;)

[13:51] herman Bergson: The idea of everlasting growth is a myth

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): YESSS

[13:51] herman Bergson: if that is our goal...growth...we are on the wrong track

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That was why I mentioned chain letters once

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yet all efforts by government are about ramping up the growth again.

[13:52] herman Bergson: this earth is a finite object...how can growth then be infinite?

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): exactly

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): People think it is like a balloon expanding. that everything can go on getting bigger

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): and then ...POOF..

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: nothing is infinite, ... the universe probably ...

[13:53] Merlin: hehe yes

[13:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): So how do we influence this, so that those in power see the problem correctly?

[13:53] herman Bergson: exactly Beertje ㋡

[13:53] Qwark Allen: not even the universe

[13:53] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I think we need stability

[13:53] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well sorry to be gloomy but I think we have lost it

[13:53] Kime Babenco: When I was at school aged 14, someone asked why people in some countries choose for communism and not for free market... I understand a bit... they had free medicine , free food , and free education in such communist countries... In USA free health care is one step too far it seems

[13:54] herman Bergson: Well....we face a complex future.....

[13:54] Debbie Dee (framdor): Herman, I agree. But the planet will survive. The question now is how many people die off.

[13:54] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): young people do anyway

[13:54] herman Bergson: so let's continue with a next lecture on THursday....maybe then we get a little bit wiser then

[13:54] QueenOfNorway Alex: the growth problem we all need to start with ourselves to stop that craving... the "need" to buy new fashion clothes and shoes and everything fancier because fashion changes...

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): This is exactly what James Lovelock says Herman

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): mankind will survive as an animal

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): as a species

[13:55] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): but not our society

[13:55] Debbie Dee (framdor): Sadly, the ones with the guns will win.

[13:56] herman Bergson: yes maybe we'll be decimated first....then there is room for growth again ㋡

[13:56] QueenOfNorway Alex: i think society can survive... and more easy in areas where they live off the nature

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): a world over-run by tribes with war-lords in charge

[13:56] QueenOfNorway Alex: like where i come from... fishery...

[13:56] Mick Nerido: Thanks all bye

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But Alex.....

[13:56] Qwark Allen: think that soon we`ll be 9 billions

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): You cannot have one part surviving along

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): alone

[13:56] herman Bergson: We'll continue our discussion next Thursday....

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There would be too much pressure from everyone else

[13:56] herman Bergson: for now...thank you all for your participation.... ㋡

[13:57] herman Bergson: class dismissed ^_^

[13:57] Kime Babenco: We all like to help when we see people in trouble on TV . But maybe it's the problem they are too many...

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: Thanks to YOU!

[13:57] Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**  **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**   **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:57] Qwark Allen: thank you

[13:57] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): have a goodnight all

404: The Utopia of the Free Market - private property

Thomas More (1478 - 1535) writes in his Utopia" Wherever you are, you always should work. There is no excuse for laziness" But only 6 hours a day. 

You must keep in mind that from the Ancient Greek till the 16th century,  it was not done to get rich by working.

You increased your wealth by war and conquering enemies. Thus the first thing a conquering army did in those days was to plunder. 

Contrary to tradition, labor does not only mean the creation of wealth and prosperity for the Utopians, but also to take in possession the land that they work on.

And when the number of Utopians increased and there wasn't land enough a group moved on to reclaim new land by their labor, driving away the natives who never had done anything with the land.

This is still Thomas More speaking, but aren't you recognizing already a familiar pattern? Here you get implicitly all theory on labor, private property and colonization as formulated by John Locke.

Where it was only a Utopia for Thomas More, more than a hundred years later it was reality for John Locke (1632 - 1704), closely related to the development of individualism (think of the Cartesian Cogito).

This brought Locke to the view, that is was a law of nature that every human being owns his own person. And the next step was: "The labor of his body and the work by his hands, we can say, really belong to him".

Thence, when  a person cultivates land, the land and the products of the land are his property. With this theory of labor and private property the colonization of America was easily justified.

In those days two free markets opened: one of labor and one of land as private property. Labor and land can be bought and sold. Thus dissolved the traditional bonds of community and reciprocity.

This led to the situation that the buyer just "bought" labor by paying wages. When the wages were hardly enough to keep the worker alive, that was no longer the responsibility of the buyer of labor.

Thus liberalism was born,which was literally copied by Ayn Rand for her utopia, Atlantis. In "The Ayn Rand Lexicon", paragraph "Property rights" we read that every person possesses his own body 

and from this one derives the right "to think, to work and to keep the results - which means the right of property". Locke's ideas directly copied into Atlantis.

A justification of individualism and private property in a more moral context I found in The Internet Encyclopedia of philosophy:

-quote

When effectively protected by the state, the right to private property secures for human individuals a sphere of personal jurisdiction, the right to acquire and hold the props, as it where, with which to order one’s life. 

Moral virtues such as generosity, kindness, courage, moderation, prudence and the rest are all imperatives,  which are meaningful, when you engage with the natural world. 

If one is not in charge of some of that world, at least oneself, one cannot conduct oneself virtuously. So the right to one’s life, liberty and property are necessary conditions for a morally significant or meaningful life in human communities.

It needs to be noted here, as a significant aside, that even if we are essentially individuals, this doesn’t mean we are not also naturally members of societies. 

But, as moral agents and as candidates for membership in some human communities or societies, we are morally responsible to take into consideration and never neglect the fact 

that we must judge those societies as to whether they do adequate justice to our individuality, most generally, and whether they best serve our flourishing.

- end quote.

Here you have the ingredients of the free market: individualism as our basic social belief, labor, that can be bought and private property as a sphere of personal jurisdiction.

The Discussion

[13:19] herman Bergson: Thank you....

[13:19] herman Bergson: The floor is yours for remarks and questions ㋡

[13:20] Kime Babenco: Thanks professor

[13:20] Debbie Dee (framdor): mmm

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): thinking

[13:21] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:21] Velvet (velvet.braham): Not much controversy this week!

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): i guess we are all set to town property

[13:21] Kime Babenco: I guess there is a lot of confusion on common property and individual property as well here. For example.. The oil.. Does it own to the dictators of a country ? To the company it explores it ? Or to the common wellness of a country ?

[13:21] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:21] herman Bergson: Most important issue of today is that the balance shifted to individualism

[13:21] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well I thought it was just me, but I found it difficult to concentrate today

[13:22] herman Bergson: Wasnt easy Merlin...indeed

[13:22] Velvet (velvet.braham): Shifting to individualism give one more control over one's life.

[13:22] Lizzy Pleides: is privat property really a sphere of personal jurisdiction? I doubt on that

[13:22] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I wondered

[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): so does the utopian ideal best serve our flourishing?

[13:23] herman Bergson: Well Lizzy...that is the big issue....

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): well first of all we need the money usually to get pproperty

[13:23] Velvet (velvet.braham): my private property is!

[13:23] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): and then pay taxes to the state so others can get to my porperty

[13:23] herman Bergson: th epoint is that we now live in a society where labor as well as private property are restricted in all kinds of way

[13:23] Debbie Dee (framdor): You can never really own property - it was there long before you, and you die....

[13:23] oola Neruda: the best way to get a million dollars is to start with four million dollars

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oola

[13:24] Bejiita Imako: hehehe

[13:24] oola Neruda: it's true

[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): Debbie just said something profound

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): doh;)

[13:24] Velvet (velvet.braham): I think of my property as mine, but she's right

[13:24] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): its like trying to own a river

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): That came up in a previous week

[13:24] herman Bergson: No..it is about a legal right to the possession of objects...

[13:25] herman Bergson: not the fact that they existed already before you came on earth...

[13:25] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes thats it. you have a right - you don't really own the property

[13:25] herman Bergson: My house in RL is older than me for instance...but it is private property

[13:25] Mick Nerido: your home is your castle

[13:25] Velvet (velvet.braham): okay, so we're back to my property being mine.... for now.

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: you can't do on your land what you want, every society has rules

[13:25] Debbie Dee (framdor): well - the rights have been passed on for money.

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Another example, if you own an island you cannot be its government

[13:26] Velvet (velvet.braham): Debbie, only for the next two years!

[13:26] Velvet (velvet.braham): then it's MINE

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): a lease?

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): oh i seee ;)

[13:26] Velvet (velvet.braham): mortgage

[13:26] herman Bergson: That is a funny issue Merlin....

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): what if your beach side property falls in the sea?

[13:26] herman Bergson: You can possess an island indeed...

[13:27] herman Bergson: but normaly it is within the borders of an existing country

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): that happens debbie

[13:27] Kime Babenco: Yes, if you have the money.. (and hurry... )

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes

[13:27] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): better have good insurance

[13:27] Mick Nerido: Sovernity is like ownership

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): During your life time - yes.

[13:27] oola Neruda: what responsibility do you have to the property/owner that is on your border... individualism can get sticky

[13:27] herman Bergson: There is something magic about it....

[13:28] herman Bergson: you own the island....and yet can not be the government….

[13:28] herman Bergson: it is an odd situation...

[13:28] Bejiita Imako: ah

[13:28] herman Bergson: Just keep in mind that WE invented the idea of private property....

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: if i have jurisdiction on my property i could kill somebody on my land without being punished

[13:28] Mick Nerido: Look at the Falkins

[13:28] herman Bergson: Yes MIck...good example...

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): what lizzy?

[13:28] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): as we invented most conventions in society

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Not in UK Lizzy

[13:29] oola Neruda: i could poison the groundwater under my property

[13:29] Jaelle Faerye: it's the animal notion of territory, somehow, i think

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: nowhere

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): In uk you cannot even make it dangerous for intruders

[13:29] herman Bergson: oola !!! :-)

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): you cant kill somebody, just for being on the property you have rights to

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): booby traps etc

[13:29] Bejiita Imako: well you cant do bad things anywhere i hope

[13:29] Velvet (velvet.braham): nods at Bejita

[13:29] oola Neruda: it is done all the time... to rivers and streams and the air as well

[13:29] Kime Babenco: Oh ?

[13:30] Velvet (velvet.braham): wait, why are we killing people and poisoning groundwater?

[13:30] Mick Nerido: its like individual cells in a body

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: hmm many countries dump acids and other chemicals like cyanide and so right out

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: don't be afraid i am a peaceful person,:-)

[13:30] Kime Babenco: I have and electrical fence on top of my wall, (3meters high) with 8000 volts on it... better not to touch...

[13:30] herman Bergson: Wait.....

[13:30] Bejiita Imako: thats not a good thing

[13:30] Mick Nerido: they must cooperate or the body dies

[13:30] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): goodness

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): So, if your property is enveloped in radioactivity. like fukushima, what happens to your ownership?

[13:31] herman Bergson: all you say show that the concept of PRIVATE property isn't clear at all anymore

[13:31] herman Bergson: as it was to Locke

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): right

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: guess its lost then

[13:31] Kime Babenco: Exactly

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: cause how can you ever get to that without dying from radiation

[13:31] herman Bergson: But let's get to the core....

[13:31] Debbie Dee (framdor): so did you ever own it then?

[13:31] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): we still have rights but must obey laws that protect the land of others nearby

[13:31] Bejiita Imako: interesting question

[13:31] herman Bergson: We are investigating the Utopia of the free market...

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate) GIGGLES!!

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ...LOL...

[13:32] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): the invisible utopia

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): we are small parasites on the earth, and have never owned it.

[13:32] oola Neruda: ronald regan said government is the problem

[13:32] herman Bergson: and what we see here is that this market regarding private property isnt that free at all....

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: the own freedom is subordinated to common rights

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): we consume it.

[13:32] herman Bergson: Yes oola....

[13:32] herman Bergson: Like the Tea Party does....

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes Debbie I agree

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): ty merlin ;)

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :)

[13:33] Kime Babenco: Most countries not Japan) have their nuclear plants near the border with another country... So in case of accident, 50 % chance the wind drives it to another country.

[13:33] herman Bergson: So what the Tea Party people claim...less government is a Utopia too

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): well, too much government is a problem...

[13:33] Bejiita Imako: well nuclear plants always must be built so they can get cooling water

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:33] herman Bergson: Our situation has become so complex from a legal point of view....government or no government

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): so next to water resources.... very smart

[13:34] herman Bergson: Let me give you an example...

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): And the complexity is different in each country.

[13:34] herman Bergson: My computer...thta is private property...

[13:34] oola Neruda: some people say...get rid of the EPA

[13:34] Kime Babenco: But not on the beach as in Japan... the country that has 1000 earthquakes every year... and Tsunami is a Japanese word... That was really stupid to built it there

[13:34] herman Bergson: ok private means ..nobody may steal it....

[13:35] herman Bergson: but can I dispose of it just like that throwing it on the street?

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: hmm indeed but probably the only way where they could get enough cooling so they should never built them ever in first place

[13:35] Fred123 Aiten: no because you don't own the street

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: but everyone need power

[13:35] Bejiita Imako: and that must come from somewhere

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): but you could give it away.

[13:35] Debbie Dee (framdor): the computer

[13:36] Mick Nerido: better erase the hard drive...

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): the power - we will have to learn to do with less

[13:36] Kime Babenco: Many countries and companies payed a lot to dictators to be allowed to get oil from those countries Is that steeling ?

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): give away the knowledge on the computer too.

[13:36] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie but the next owner has the same problem....private doesnt mean absolute freedom to do as you like with you r property

[13:36] Bejiita Imako: hmm you should not waste energy like many does

[13:36] Velvet (velvet.braham): you could throw the computer on the street

[13:36] Debbie Dee (framdor): true herman.

[13:37] Velvet (velvet.braham): what's stopping you?

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: but the industries still are needing lots, muhge motors welders and so that need to run 24/7 in paper moills ect

[13:37] Mick Nerido: what about intellectual property rights?

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes mick

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: the base insustry for making paper steel ect are also needing the most power

[13:37] herman Bergson: Interesting Mick...

[13:37] Debbie Dee (framdor): Micro$oft would have you believe you cant give your computer software away

[13:38] herman Bergson: They are guaranteed by all kinds of laws...

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: aaa yes

[13:38] Kime Babenco: I personally think... intellectual rights should not last longer than 3 years

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: and now they scream about file sharing worse then murder sort of

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: the hollywood lawyers

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): Open source standards and software result in a bigger commons

[13:38] Mick Nerido: genes are even patented

[13:39] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie an interesting development.....open source as the new commons...

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: and Apple sues everyone like kids in a sandbox throwing sand on each other

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): the phones, wifi, android, driving rules - all open standards

[13:39] Kime Babenco: That's beyond madness

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: for small things that seems you cant get patented by logical sense

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: yet they can

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: and wins

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: UUUGH

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): i have to go..sorry herman..rl is calling

[13:39] Debbie Dee (framdor): by Beertje

[13:39] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Bye, Bye  ㋡ 

[13:39] Lizzy Pleides: TC Beertje

[13:39] Jaelle Faerye: bye Beertje, nice seeing you :)

[13:40] herman Bergson: Ok Beertje, you are excused of course

[13:40] herman Bergson: :-)

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: cu beertje

[13:40] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye B

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): I love the open source/ standards developments - we can build on top of each others foundations

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:40] Debbie Dee (framdor): a bit like sl ;)

[13:40] Velvet (velvet.braham): I agree

[13:40] herman Bergson: Kind of intellectual communism ^_^

[13:41] Kime Babenco: Imagine just I invent something important... To require a pattent I would need so much money that I don't have...

[13:41] Velvet (velvet.braham): it is, yes!

[13:41] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:41] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes. I think it is a strong model to drive innovation

[13:41] oola Neruda: you need four million to make one million KIME

[13:41] Kime Babenco: Only big companies can

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: Linux should get a better chance, but one big thing that is in the way is all games today and also graphic cards do all performance on direct x which is windows only

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: and thus gaming is locked to windows machines only

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): When i worked for a big corporation, patents were used to drive out competitors

[13:42] herman Bergson: that is the meaning of it indeed Debbie

[13:42] Kime Babenco: Good never one took a patent on the wheel... lol

[13:42] Bejiita Imako: hahaha yes that would be bad

[13:42] Debbie Dee (framdor): Causing monopolistic practices, that often didnt benefit society

[13:43] herman Bergson: One of the basics of traditional society....the redistribution of goods....related to the needs

[13:43] oola Neruda: the media is working on being monopolies

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: start as said to get really tired of these meaningless patent wars that end up with hindering development and giving us worse and locked down and more expensive products

[13:43] oola Neruda: competing monopolies

[13:43] herman Bergson: Now it is monopolizing goods...

[13:44] oola Neruda: so they can use propaganda effectively

[13:44] Kime Babenco: They are already protesting now on my video recorder... because I don't like to watch the publicities

[13:44] Debbie Dee (framdor): Bottled water is my pet hate.

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: thats greediness by all means that apple uses, apple is greediness personified id say

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): ooooh wait, now we are back to Ayn Rand's Atlantis!

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): in software

[13:44] Velvet (velvet.braham): some people are creating open source software

[13:44] herman Bergson: laughs...yes Debbie

[13:44] Bejiita Imako: thats sad cause they make good stuff in basics the computers are good but all could be much better

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: and not locked down like iphone is for ex

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well tumble dryers are my pet hate

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: Apple want to control too much

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): next we will have potted air.

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): •´¨*•.¸. HahahaA •´¨*•.¸. 

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): I sorry..

[13:45] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): oops I'm Sorry!

[13:45] Debbie Dee (framdor): Yeah merlin - use the washing line ;)

[13:45] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): :))

[13:45] Bejiita Imako: heheheh

[13:46] herman Bergson: Well...

[13:46] Debbie Dee (framdor): our current situation around individuality, and owning stuff, is driving us into a wall at high speed.

[13:46] Kime Babenco: They should people that write computer viruses condemn to repay all damage they made by working in jail... Maybe then they will doubt a bit... However, frankly , I believe the antivirus distributers make some themselves

13:47] Velvet (velvet.braham): Kime, you may have something there

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): heehe

[13:47] herman Bergson: the subjects of today to think about are private property ansd especially labor.....the fact that labor can be 'bought'

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): I have used open source software for 7 years now. I will never go back to broken Windows

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): We do get a long way off-topic sometimes

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): :-)

[13:47] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:47] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin...^_^

[13:47] Debbie Dee (framdor): yes we do...

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): but it's fun ;)

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): one thing leads to another

[13:48] Kime Babenco: I hear in some countries... some people can be arrested, but buy freedom again... What nonsense is that ?

[13:48] herman Bergson: I'll continue next Tuesday with a next topic....

[13:48] Mick Nerido: thanks Herman

[13:48] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:48] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Slightly off-topic but today's 'In Our Time' on BBC Radio4 was about Game Theory... which is a study of ethics.

[13:48] Kime Babenco: OK, Thanks Herman

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Professor

[13:48] Debbie Dee (framdor): great lecture - thanks Prof

[13:48] Jaelle Faerye: thanks Herman

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): Yes-ah!

[13:48] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): ty

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: interesting as always ㋡

[13:49] herman Bergson: So thank you all for your good participation in the debate again....

[13:49] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Today was one to read back

[13:49] Fred123 Aiten: Thanks herman

[13:49] herman Bergson: Yes Merlin, I understand your feeling...I agree

[13:49] Gemma Allen (gemma.cleanslate): see you all next week

[13:49] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ok cu next time

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:50] herman Bergson: I'll post it in the blog as soon as possible

[13:50] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye tout le monde

[13:50] Debbie Dee (framdor): well bye all...