423: slow assassination of moral values

Last night I was watching the movie "Basic Instinct" with Michael Douglas and Sharon Stone and observed the following scene.

In some meeting the psychologist describes the personality of the icepick murderer. The suspect, Catherine Tramell (Sharon Stone), Berkeley graduate in psychology and literature, wrote a book, 

describing the exact details of how the murder with the icepick took place. She also inherited 105 million dollars from her parents , who died in a mysterious accident…..

When leaving the meeting and entering the elevator there is the following conversation between the participants of the meeting (policemen of course):

Mr. A: "We call her in for questioning."

Mr. B: "She has got enough money to burn this whole place down."

Mr. C:"Won't do any good. She just walks in with some super star  lawyer, who got us all canned for wasting the taxpayer's money."

[OK….just for  those who do know or don't know the move. Eventually she does get interrogated. And there it is where every man wants to watch the movie only frame by frame:-)]

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[13:19]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:19]  Qwark Allen: lol

[13:19]  Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:19]  Mick Nerido: lol

[13:19]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:19]  herman Bergson: grins

[13:19]  herman Bergson: I knew it....lol

====================================================

That, I thought, is exactly how the top 1% percent, the super wealthy, live their lives. The truth has become a commodity for them.

What is new in economics is the believe in financial incentives. Of course, the bonuses of millions of dollars are a nice example of how we can influence individual market behavior of people.

The health lobby, which I now and then are inclined to call the health terrorists, is the kind of group that also comes with such ideas.

Some time ago the health fighters came with the suggestion to add an extra tax on food products that make people fat. You know, greasy hamburgers, French fries, potato chips, candy of all kinds, etc.

This, the lobby believes, would stimulate people to buy healthier food in the supermarket. Does money really change behavior in that way?

It is not as simple as that. Take for instance that Israeli nursery. The employees were pretty annoyed because a lot of parents came always in too late to pick up their children.

Let them pay a fine!, was the brilliant idea. That would stop parents from coming late. The effect was astonishing: the number of late parents almost double.

After twelve weeks they canceled the penalty system.  People had  regarded the fine just as an extra payment. But things got even worse. The number of parents that came too late to pick up their children stayed on the higher level after dropping the fine.

Here you see how a financial incentive corrupted a moral obligation to be in time and the social value of responsibility for each other.

In 1993 there was a referendum in a small Swiss village for or against the storage of nuclear waste. The inhabitants didn't like the idea but just 51% said OK.

Then the economists came up with an idea: give these people a financial incentive to agree to the nuclear waste storage near their village.

The result was, that the acceptance of the waste project dropped to 25% ! Economists believe that offering money  makes something uncomfortable more bearable and acceptable.

However, the dedication to the public interest of the villagers did them regard the money offered as a disrespectful form of bribery.

An other experiment: two groups of children are asked to collect money for charity. One group listens to a motivational story, the other group is informed that they'll be paid for their efforts. This payment does not come from the charity money.

The result of the experiment was that the group that got paid for their work collected less money than the volunteers.

These examples illustrate how the introduction of money in a non-commercial situation can change people's attitudes and can supplant their moral and social responsibility.

The Discussion

[13:28]  herman Bergson: Thank you... ^_^

[13:28]  Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:28]  Qwark Allen: money its a 2 faces coin

[13:28]  Kime Babenco: Thanks

[13:28]  herman Bergson: The floor is yours ..

[13:28]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Interesting. The outcomes were opposite to expectation of the economic thinkers.

[13:28]  herman Bergson: Yes Qwark...

[13:29]  herman Bergson: but economists and politicians seem to see only one face :-)

[13:29]  Qwark Allen: ahhaha yes

[13:29]  Qwark Allen: and us all the other one

[13:29]  Mick Nerido: If you really want to do something you will do it for free...

[13:29]  herman Bergson: yes :-))

[13:29]  herman Bergson: Yes Mick...

[13:30]  herman Bergson: and financial incentives corrupt that attitude

[13:30]  Kime Babenco: It can be like a sociological result... People react on things they hear, ... esplecilally when they more information about it

[13:30]  Bejiita Imako: seems so indeed

[13:30]  herman Bergson: which means that it is not only money that rules this world

[13:30]  Mick Nerido: when I paint a picture I don't think of how much i will be paid for it.

[13:31]  herman Bergson: ahh good example Mick....

[13:31]  herman Bergson: Let's take this a step further...

[13:31]  Qwark Allen: was thinking, that our pay check is another exemple of financial incentive

[13:31]  Debbie Dee (framdor): With money we can buy the time to do things that appear to be important

[13:31]  herman Bergson: You paint the painting driven by your artistic feelings and insight

[13:31]  Kime Babenco: If people say there are not enough engineers, maybe more kids start to study engineering... which results in too much engineers

[13:32]  herman Bergson: hold on plz...

[13:32]  herman Bergson: let's stick to Mick's remark

[13:32]  herman Bergson: He makes a painting as a driven artist...

[13:33]  herman Bergson: then it sells for 5000 whatever currency...

[13:33]  herman Bergson: Now the next painting....

[13:34]  Mick Nerido: putting a monitary value on it some how cheapens it... and i now paint for pay, not good.

[13:34]  herman Bergson: Mick might think..when I use the same style, technique etc..it might sell too for 5000

[13:34]  herman Bergson: ahh...Mick...that is the other side of the coin indeed

[13:35]  herman Bergson: for the second painting you also can just follow your artistic drive...

[13:35]  herman Bergson: It even doesn't sell for 50....

[13:35]  Debbie Dee (framdor): You still need groceries though.

[13:36]  Qwark Allen: that is the point

[13:36]  Mick Nerido: artists often "sell out" when the money temps them

[13:36]  Qwark Allen: if the currency is a drachma, he will starve, even its 5000

[13:36]  herman Bergson: in a philosophical sense...

[13:36]  herman Bergson: what you observe here

[13:36]  Qwark Allen: and have no strength to make the second one

[13:36]  Debbie Dee (framdor): It seems you can be poor and hungry and motivated by the love of life; or rich and amoral ;)

[13:37]  herman Bergson: is that the selling/buying principle here corrupts essential human valus

[13:37]  Mick Nerido: That's why a long struggle to be successful in art is often better then immediate success

[13:37]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): the first painting is easy...I paint with joy and don't thinkof any money..the second painting is more difficult..

[13:38]  herman Bergson: Yes Mick...for what values most is this struggle....

[13:38]  herman Bergson: the search for meaning in what you do

[13:38]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): imagine I get the same money for it..is it as good as the first one?

[13:38]  Mick Nerido: It's a matter of motivation, from inside or outside

[13:39]  herman Bergson: If you get the same money Beertje..it is as good as the first one at least...

[13:39]  Lizzy Pleides: every painting should be a first painting, ... good motivation, not thinking of the money

[13:39]  Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:39]  Bejiita Imako: exactly

[13:39]  herman Bergson: The buyer may have the idea that it is a bargain for he thinks the second is way more better :-)

[13:39]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Now what if mick prints 100 limited edition copies of his first masterpiece?

[13:39]  Mick Nerido: then when I die it is suddenly worth more!

[13:39]  Qwark Allen: that only happens, if you don`t depend on the art to survive

[13:40]  Debbie Dee (framdor): And some coffee mugs with micks glory on them?

[13:40]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): after I have died my children will be rich..lol

[13:40]  herman Bergson: Should I kill you to make you rich now, Mick????^_^

[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:40]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:40]  Qwark Allen: lol

[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: how brutal!

[13:40]  Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:40]  herman Bergson: That is art..:-))

[13:40]  Debbie Dee (framdor): next week hermen - he just got back.

[13:40]  oola Neruda: if they are not on an original plate or screen... like an etched plate or a litho stone or silk screen then they are not worth zip even if it has a so called certificate of authenticity

[13:40]  Mick Nerido: it's not a good idea Herman...

[13:41]  herman Bergson: I agree Mick..too happy to see you gain

[13:41]  Qwark Allen: brilliant idea hermann

[13:41]  Kime Babenco: Art is relative... Some like a painting, some like a concert of Iron Maiden (not me, it was an example)

[13:41]  Debbie Dee (framdor): But they sell oola. Look at the stores around you.

[13:41]  Mick Nerido: But if you collected my work It would make you richer

[13:41]  oola Neruda: i know ...and people are being ripped off

[13:41]  Qwark Allen: get some of his paints, kill him, then i talk to a friend in a TV station

[13:41]  oola Neruda: they even sign them and sell them at art fairs

[13:41]  herman Bergson: gold on...plz

[13:42]  Qwark Allen: then the paints will value much more

[13:42]  herman Bergson: hold on

[13:42]  oola Neruda: and people don't understand they are worthless

[13:42]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Qwark

[13:42]  oola Neruda: no quark

[13:42]  herman Bergson: Let's get back to outr main issue here....

[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: heheh

[13:42]  Debbie Dee (framdor): If they are nice paintings they are worth hanging on the wall.

[13:42]  Debbie Dee (framdor): oops

[13:42]  oola Neruda: it has to do with whether it was printed from the plate the artist made themselves

[13:42]  oola Neruda: not a photo of a painting etc

[13:42]  Bejiita Imako: yes

[13:43]  Debbie Dee (framdor): maybe. But colour reproductions these days are superb

[13:43]  Kime Babenco: I can give 200 R$ to go to a show... but not for a painting... even thatl,asts longer... I guess it's the brain concept of it

[13:43]  Bejiita Imako: yes hard to distinguish

[13:43]  Bejiita Imako: thats why u have all these safety features in money

[13:43]  Lizzy Pleides: a painting is not only a canvas and some color, its more

[13:43]  herman Bergson: hello???

[13:43]  Debbie Dee (framdor): what safety features are in money?

[13:44]  Bejiita Imako: plus modern copiers even sense thats a bill and refuse to print and often even redirects u to an anti counterfeit page on the web

[13:44]  oola Neruda: that is the key ... reproduction

[13:44]  herman Bergson: What are we discussing here..??lol

[13:44]  Qwark Allen: loads of safety stuff in a note

[13:44]  oola Neruda: sorry

[13:44]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Children ....

[13:44]  Bejiita Imako: a copier cant put the metal thread and hologram in the bills for ex

[13:44]  herman Bergson: ORDER!!!!! lol

[13:44]  Debbie Dee (framdor): hey - who started talking counterfeiting?

[13:44]  Qwark Allen: first one, is that they are not made of paper, they are made of cotton

[13:44]  Lizzy Pleides: shhhhhh, .... let herman speak!

[13:44]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I was on about copies of a painting

[13:45]  herman Bergson: laughs

[13:45]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): grins

[13:45]  Mick Nerido: all things equal money puts value on something that may not have real value after all

[13:45]  herman Bergson: ok..are we done??? lol

[13:45]  Kime Babenco: The idea is ... you have to like it... If you don't like paintings, like me.. (sorry-atleast most, not all) it will not change me or have any impact on me...

[13:45]  Lizzy Pleides: out of control everything here, lol

[13:45]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): [13:32] herman Bergson: let's stick to Mick's remark

[13:45]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): you started...

[13:45]  Qwark Allen: ㋡ ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•   Helloooooo!  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜   ㋡

[13:45]  Qwark Allen: Hey! rodney

[13:45]  Lizzy Pleides: Hi Rod

[13:45]  Bejiita Imako: hi Rod

[13:46]  Debbie Dee (framdor): im quiet.... shhhh. listen to prof H

[13:46]  Rodney Handrick: hi folks

[13:46]  herman Bergson: OH YES....We need Rodney to keep things under control!!!

[13:46]  herman Bergson: Welcome Rodney...

[13:46]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:46]  Qwark Allen: lol

[13:46]  Bejiita Imako: hi rod

[13:46]  herman Bergson: Perfect timing

[13:46]  Qwark Allen: don`t kill him, he is a friend

[13:46]  Bejiita Imako: hahahah

[13:46]  Rodney Handrick: hi everyone

[13:46]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): does he paint?

[13:46]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:46]  Qwark Allen: lol

[13:46]  herman Bergson: grins

[13:46]  Bejiita Imako: or just print copies

[13:46]  Bejiita Imako: lol

[13:46]  Lizzy Pleides: are you a painter Rod?

[13:46]  herman Bergson: Come on, people…

[13:46]  herman Bergson: this is e serious class… ^_^

[13:47]  Bejiita Imako: anyway a good paining can really make a room stand out

[13:47]  Qwark Allen: we had a good giggle for sure .-)

[13:47]  Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:47]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:47]  Mick Nerido: We come to this class because we want to not for pay

[13:47]  Bejiita Imako: painting

[13:47]  herman Bergson: Well

[13:48]  Kime Babenco: There is a saying here about a painter that made a nice paint, He said it has no value now.. and put his name under it and said now it's about 10 000 US$

[13:48]  herman Bergson: I SEE A RED DOOR AND I WANT TO PAINT IT BLACK !!!!!

[13:48]  Debbie Dee (framdor): hey mick!

[13:48]  herman Bergson: CLASS DISMISSED ...LOL

[13:49]  Bejiita Imako: hehee

[13:49]  Debbie Dee (framdor):  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:49]  herman Bergson: Any painters in the room?

[13:49]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): laughs

[13:49]  Qwark Allen: ehehehhe

[13:49]  Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:49]  Kime Babenco: A song from Rolling Stones

[13:49]  Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:49]  Qwark Allen: ¸¸.☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**   **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`☆ H E R MA N ☆´ ¯¨☆.¸¸`☆**   **☆´ ¸¸.☆¨¯`

[13:49]  Bejiita Imako: i think i might have a bucket somewhere

[13:49]  Debbie Dee (framdor): thats a great ending - herman - but it won't silence us

[13:49]  herman Bergson: lol..

[13:49]  Lizzy Pleides: i am painting my bedroom next week

[13:49]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:50]  herman Bergson: never had such a funny discussion :-)

[13:50]  Bejiita Imako: hahaa as it should be

[13:50]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:50]  Mick Nerido: I once painted my room black, parents not amused!

[13:50]  oola Neruda: printmaker who can teach painting and most other art subjects

[13:50]  Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[13:50]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol

[13:50]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks for the article on Venezuela Herman. What do you think of Chavz' social democracy?

[13:50]  Qwark Allen: lets paint that door

[13:50]  herman Bergson: YEAH!!!!

[13:50]  Qwark Allen: bejita can do nice graphiti on it also

[13:50]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:50]  Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:51]  Qwark Allen: .-)))

[13:51]  Bejiita Imako: always wanted to learn do these cool airbrush paintings

[13:51]  Bejiita Imako: really awesome stuff

[13:51]  Kime Babenco: Tell me Debbie...Venezuela is our my neighbour

[13:51]  herman Bergson: Yeah it is Bejiita

[13:51]  herman Bergson: \

[13:51]  Qwark Allen: how much worth that paint behind us? for real

[13:51]  Bejiita Imako: a work buddy have a welding screen painted like that

[13:52]  Qwark Allen: from the chappel

[13:52]  Bejiita Imako: i want one too

[13:52]  Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:52]  Qwark Allen: its worthless

[13:52]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Kime, it seems that there is great support for this man amongst the poor, after good results over the last three terms of office

[13:52]  Mick Nerido: Thanks Herman, great class, are you sure it's not an art class?

[13:52]  herman Bergson: yes...

[13:52]  Qwark Allen: no matter what money you have, you cannot buy it

[13:52]  herman Bergson: Well I am in doubt now Mick...

[13:52]  Bejiita Imako: indeed

[13:52]  Kime Babenco: think Chavez is very well to the poor people of Venezuela (majority)

[13:53]  Kime Babenco: People from Venezuela you meet in SL are not that poor

[13:53]  herman Bergson: did you get my URL Debbie?

[13:53]  Debbie Dee (framdor): It seems that all of the indicators of life quality are up. and education is strong.

[13:53]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I did. Thanks herman.

[13:53]  herman Bergson: The poor do not have computers Kime....that hasn't changed...

[13:54]  Qwark Allen: yes

[13:54]  Qwark Allen: see how many people from africa are at SL

[13:54]  herman Bergson: But yet education level in Venezuela has changed !

[13:54]  Qwark Allen: a good example

[13:54]  Debbie Dee (framdor): It seems that the first world media are pro the oligarchs,

[13:54]  Mick Nerido: gotta go... bye everyone!

[13:54]  Bejiita Imako: cu Mick

[13:54]  herman Bergson: none I guess Qwark..

[13:54]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Im here qwark. Its me.

[13:54]  Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜   ㋡

[13:54]  Qwark Allen: where you live?

[13:54]  herman Bergson: or a few fromSouth Africa...

[13:54]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Im from africa

[13:55]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I live in south africa

[13:55]  Qwark Allen: ehehheeh

[13:55]  Rodney Handrick: I visited this art museum a couple of days ago...http://www.newportartmuseum.org/index.html

[13:55]  Kime Babenco: South Africa if I remember well

[13:55]  Qwark Allen: even so you are a rarity

[13:55]  Lizzy Pleides: i must go too, Good night everybody!

[13:55]  Qwark Allen: thats not a good example

[13:55]  Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:55]  Qwark Allen: lol

[13:55]  Bejiita Imako: but even places like Nigeria i think is advancing

[13:55]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I know :(

[13:55]  herman Bergson: yes Debbie...and allow me to ask...are you white?

[13:55]  Qwark Allen: above south farica, how many you know?

[13:55]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I am. From british and dutch descent.

[13:56]  Debbie Dee (framdor): I know none.

[13:56]  herman Bergson: But same story about India Qwark,,,

[13:56]  Qwark Allen: in all africa, maybe thats the only place where you can log here

[13:56]  herman Bergson: Only the rich are in SL

[13:56]  herman Bergson: and educated

[13:56]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Thats why I often see things from a poorer perspective

[13:56]  Kime Babenco: ;-)

[13:56]  Qwark Allen: india has lots class media ppl

[13:56]  Kime Babenco: Lol , I guess not

[13:56]  Qwark Allen: i know a lot of indians at internet

[13:57]  oola Neruda: there are many who are not rich or educated in south africa

[13:57]  Kime Babenco: In every country are rich people

[13:57]  herman Bergson: Only from Europe and the US you also get in the trash :-)))

[13:57]  Bejiita Imako: well India is the new it nation as i get it

[13:57]  Kime Babenco: Even in the poorest country of the world

[13:57]  Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes. We are better off than most african countries, but thing are still not fair.

[13:57]  Qwark Allen: ˜*•. ˜”*°•.˜”*°•  Bye !  •°*”˜.•°*”˜ .•*˜   ㋡

[13:57]  Qwark Allen: for now

[13:57]  Qwark Allen: ty hermann

[13:57]  Rodney Handrick: bye

[13:57]  Qwark Allen: seee you tuesday

[13:57]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I know a man from Africa too here in sl

[13:57]  Debbie Dee (framdor): By qwerky qwark ;)

[13:57]  Kime Babenco: In every country are good and bad people as well...

[13:57]  herman Bergson: Bye Qwark

[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:58]  Rodney Handrick: this is true

[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: party time i guess?

[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: true Kime

[13:58]  herman Bergson: People...party time...just follow Qwark

[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: cu on tuesday

[13:58]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:58]  Debbie Dee (framdor): night all...

[13:58]  Rodney Handrick: goodnight

[13:59]  Debbie Dee (framdor): what a fun debate.

[13:59]  oola Neruda: baiee all

[13:59]  Debbie Dee (framdor): cu next week herman

[13:59]  Rodney Handrick: bye oola

[13:59]  Bejiita Imako: heheh yes

[13:59]  Bejiita Imako: this amused me for sure

[13:59]  Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:00]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): It was a very nice evening...have a goodnight everybody

[14:00]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): (I'm going to paint...)

[14:00]  Rodney Handrick: bye Beertie

[14:00]  .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye:)))

[14:00]  Bejiita Imako: hugs all

[14:00]  Bejiita Imako: cu

[14:01]  Rodney Handrick: bye Bejitta

422: The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

I don't know what your feelings are about it, but before 2008 I never have realized that there exists something like "financial markets".

-

Of course, I knew about the stock exchange, but that governments depend on how financial markets respond? No, that was really new to me.

-

It all looks so innocent  and understandable. Let's quote Wikipedia: 

"A financial market is a market in which people and entities can trade financial securities, commodities, 

-

and other fungible items of value at low transaction costs and at prices that reflect supply and demand. 

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Securities include stocks and bonds, and commodities include precious metals or agricultural goods.

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There are both general markets (where many commodities are traded) and specialized markets (where only one commodity is traded).

 -

Markets work by placing many interested buyers and sellers, including households, firms, and government agencies, in one "place", thus making it easier for them to find each other.

 -

An economy which relies primarily on interactions between buyers and sellers to allocate resources is known as a market economy in contrast either to a command economy or to a non-market economy such as a gift economy.

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In finance, financial markets facilitate:

- The raising of capital (in the capital markets)

- The transfer of risk (in the derivatives markets)

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In economics, typically, the term market means the aggregate of possible buyers and sellers of a certain good or service and the transactions between them.

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During the 1980s and 1990s, a major growth sector in financial markets is the trade in so called derivative products, or derivatives for short." 

- end quote -

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It is simple as that. All is just interaction between buyers and sellers. That is what most economists like to believe, but philosophers and psychologist question fundamentally.

-

In a previous lecture Longstep brought to my attention the following documentary:  

http://videos.arte.tv/fr/videos/la-grande-pompe-a-phynances--6965918.html 

(unfortunately only in French and German). There is also a part two.

-

The story of the documentary is pretty scary. It is hard to believe, that we are dealing with human beings controlling the financial world. 

-

It just looks like a small oligargy of financial hotshots that try to control our world. Their motivation? That is the most scary part: making more money….

-

This in combination with the simplistic anthropology of many economists, who believe to live in a world of buyers and sellers,

 this leads to the famous speech on money by Francisco d"Anconia in Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". (Part Two, Chapter II, The Aristocracy of Pull)

- quote -

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose—because it contains all the others—the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money.’ 

No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity—to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. 

Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

 -end quote -

And with this (American) morality we are dealing now and keep our conviction that the essence of morality is something quite different.

Dr. Vandana Shiva from India, held a lecture  at Portland Community College in Portland, Oregon, USA on February 24th, 2011. 

Lizzy brought her to my attention and a quote from her lecture, I think, is  a perfect addition to this lecture:

-quote-

”Democracy in the present context is dead because originally it was of the people by the people and for the people.

 Although millions of people say ”no war” all governments of the rich nations send soldiers to Iraq and Afganistan. 

Across the world people say ”stop the banks from stealing our money” ... and the governments do nothing apart from saving the banks and let them be even more valuable than the people. 

When corporations start to influence political decisions and lobbyists substitute the people then it is a government of the corporations by the corporations and the people are totally disposable. 

This is what threatens democracy and why democracy has to be invented new“.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOfM7QD7-kk

My only criticism here is, that corporations and governments are still just individual human beings. In other words, it still is about the individual ethics of an individual being that makes this world.

The Discussion

herman Bergson: Thank you ^_^

Debbie Dee (framdor): At least the first half.

Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

Debbie Dee (framdor): Thanks Prof.

Qwark Allen: thank you

herman Bergson: What about the first half debbie?

Qwark Allen: a pitty i can`t see that video

herman Bergson: If I could download it...

herman Bergson: but it is more than 71 minutes

Kime Babenco: Thanks Herman

Debbie Dee (framdor): So now - we agree - the corporations are in control. How do we stop them with democracy?

Lizzy Pleides: in youtube you should be able to see it Qwark

herman Bergson: part two is 66 minutes

herman Bergson: You know Debbie.....that is what I am wondering about mysellf...

herman Bergson: all these men...dont they have families, children...a social life?

Qwark Allen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fou4DOnL2ao

Qwark Allen: can you check if is that the video?

herman Bergson: research has shown that the richer you get the less social empathy you have

Debbie Dee (framdor): Yes - 1 hr 27 mins. Make it homework for discussion next week?

Kime Babenco: lol

Debbie Dee (framdor): Or at least keep them accountable?

herman Bergson: La grande pompe de phynances

herman Bergson: Yes that is the one Qwark

Qwark Allen: we know that the 1930 was man made crash

Lizzy Pleides: Hi Beertje

herman Bergson: Hi Beertje....:-)

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Goodevening:) sorry I'm late

Debbie Dee (framdor): Hi Beertje

Qwark Allen: someone just run with 500 billions in that time

herman Bergson: Yes Qwark and in the documentary these people are mentioned by name....

herman Bergson: The present crisis is manmade too.....

Qwark Allen: yes, and we know why they want it now

herman Bergson: and why is it?

Qwark Allen: more money and more power

Kime Babenco: Banks

herman Bergson: oh yes...

Lizzy Pleides: always the same

Debbie Dee (framdor): More power to do what?

herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...that puzzles me too always...

Qwark Allen: there are some "not friends" they want to get rid also

Lizzy Pleides: they think it can't be a mistake to have power

herman Bergson: to imprint your personal view of the world on this whole world I guess

herman Bergson: A person loves to do that.....gives a feeling of security

herman Bergson: I mean..these guys at the top are just ordinary people like everyone....

herman Bergson: but somehow power corrupts the brain....

herman Bergson: We see it with celebreties….

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they don't see themselves as ordinary people..they think they are special

herman Bergson: they go nuts because of the everlasting applause they get everywhere

Debbie Dee (framdor): I guess. But there is no point in destroying the world if you want to bestride it like a collosus

herman Bergson: That is the paradox I am thinking of Debbie....

herman Bergson: on the one hand you can create a crisis to get richer yourself...

Kime Babenco: Indeed.. If you were to be caught with 0,5grams of drugs in USA, you go to jail for a serious while, famous (rich) people walk a way with it

herman Bergson: but on the other hand you NEED this world intact to get richer

Debbie Dee (framdor): Only if richness is defined as only money.

Debbie Dee (framdor): yes herman. But as you have demonstrated - richness is way more than money.

herman Bergson: The thing is that it is not defined by more MONEY, but by some drive for MORE money...

Kime Babenco: Don't tell me there is no class judgement... because it's everywhere

Debbie Dee (framdor): Its crazy. And we are all complicit in this scheme.

Kime Babenco: Us knows us, and money knows money...

Kime Babenco: Hate else are clubs like Rotary and Lions?

herman Bergson: But I still believe in a countermovement....

herman Bergson: Like today Lizzy for instance points at Dr. Shiva....

herman Bergson: I still believe that these voices will be heard....

herman Bergson: let me give you an example....

Lizzy Pleides: lets hope it

Kime Babenco: She was completely right about her definition of democracy... But DO we really have democracy ?

Debbie Dee (framdor): There is a counter movement. However, we are still terribly weak. We are all so enslaved by money and technology.

herman Bergson: in the 1980s the banks were set free....

herman Bergson: in no time there emerged a trade in derivatives....

herman Bergson: especially in the US.....the holy Making money land....

herman Bergson: JC Morgan in the front row!

Debbie Dee (framdor): For example - why can you buy a car with a 7 liter engine?

Kime Babenco: Bankers should be bankers and not insurances or any other things

herman Bergson: Everybody now has to admit that the banks ruined the financial system...

herman Bergson: to give banks free reign means signing your death warrant...

herman Bergson: besides that of course we have corruption....

Lizzy Pleides: they had almost no limits

herman Bergson: the other way to get more and more ...

herman Bergson: indeed Lizzy....it is astonishing what they did, these bankers...

herman Bergson: Another example...

Qwark Allen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLDVsLCtXXg

herman Bergson: in my newspaper...

Debbie Dee (framdor): It seems that Chavez is meeting with some success with his democratic socialism

Qwark Allen: someone talking about, why they want this war to happen

Kime Babenco: Hugo Chavez from Venezuela you mean ?

herman Bergson: all of a sudden stocks of Kraft Food went up 29% on NASDAQ

Qwark Allen: omg

Debbie Dee (framdor): yes

herman Bergson: then they stopped the trade....

herman Bergson: what was the case.....

Kime Babenco: He is helping the poor people there

herman Bergson: this stocktrade isn't handled by humans anymore...

Kime Babenco: But the economy fell down there

herman Bergson: there are computers monitoring the market and buying and selling at an incredible speed...!

Debbie Dee (framdor): http://www.countercurrents.org/wharton081012.htm

Debbie Dee (framdor): This link is about the successes in Venezuela

herman Bergson: What are people doing there at NASDAQ?????

Kime Babenco: the fastest wins... that isn't fair either

herman Bergson: it is no longer about economy, ...allocating resources, but about making money....

herman Bergson: making more money...

herman Bergson: Venezuela and Chavez is a different story ....

Debbie Dee (framdor): making money? Funny idea ;)

herman Bergson: yes Debbie...but that was the American dream of Ayn Rand...

Debbie Dee (framdor): Millions of formerly unemployed Venezuelan workers, millions who once lived in extreme poverty, millions of children who survived childbirth and now millions of Venezuelan voters provide testimony to the transformative potential of socialism in the 21st century

Kime Babenco: If you would, just imagine , be a visitor from another planet, and see how a stock exchange , like Wall Street , works, and knowing that that is determinating where is going good or bad... You can't stop laughing I guess,,,

herman Bergson: I checked the 1000+ pages of Atlas Shrugged on the expression "make money"

Debbie Dee (framdor): and herman?

herman Bergson: dozens of times....

Second Life: Doodus Rebootus (doodus.moose) is online.

herman Bergson: after page 320 I stopped for I had found d'Anconia's speech ^_^

herman Bergson: I have no opinion about what is happening in Venezuela because a lack of knowledge at the moment

Debbie Dee (framdor): I still don't really understand making money. But I think it is about moving wealth to limited recipients at the expense of the planet.

herman Bergson: But I dont believ ein fairytales...nor the blessings of socialism....we have seen that promise often enough

Debbie Dee (framdor): http://www.countercurrents.org/vorpahl081012.htm - read this - it is the real start of the anti capitalist revolution

herman Bergson: ok Debbie...

herman Bergson: but let me get back to the core of this project....

Kime Babenco: If you see what bankers got fixed, you can't be angry to a bank robber anymore

herman Bergson: the basic idea is that there can be a market economy.....that there are buyers and sellers ...

herman Bergson: but that this system can not be applied to all social relations....

Lizzy Pleides: we need changes urgently but we shouldn't go from 1 extreme to another

herman Bergson: social relations, education, healthcare, environment...areas like that are slowly penetrated by this neoliberal market belief.....and that has to be stopped

Debbie Dee (framdor): no - but it has to start somewhere lizzy.

Debbie Dee (framdor): It actually needs to start like it is with us - in each persons' awareness.

Lizzy Pleides: true debbie

Kime Babenco: Of course we have to condemn any crime... but why don't we with all ? like the much higher amounts... in costume and with tie or whatever

herman Bergson: yes Kime...that is what I also say....and that is why I believe in a counter movemnet

herman Bergson: and you see these signs everywhere...

herman Bergson: Banks aren't free anymore to do as they like

Debbie Dee (framdor): The paradox for me is that I like high technology mass produced stuff, and enjoy the trappings of energy gluttony.

herman Bergson: they still try...but yet

Debbie Dee (framdor): So on a daily level I vote for the corporations ith my dollars

herman Bergson: What worries me most is that there is a small group of people, not democratically controlled, who govern this planet

Qwark Allen: yep

Kime Babenco: USA say always they spread democracy when they are attacking a country... I have never seen any result of that...or hardly...

Qwark Allen: the shadow government

herman Bergson: Yes Qwark....

Qwark Allen: above all governments

Debbie Dee (framdor): They are using up stock, to make space for more guns.

Kime Babenco: What rules is money...

herman Bergson: that documentary I mentioned shows it so clearly....really scary

Qwark Allen: nice, i`ll have a look for sure

Qwark Allen: the truth is out there

Qwark Allen: you just have to know the question, to get your answer

herman Bergson: There was one moment when I looked at that documentary when I thought

herman Bergson: what am I doing here in SL....

Debbie Dee (framdor): The truth is in you qwark ;)

Qwark Allen: hehehe

herman Bergson: talking about ethics .....

Second Life: JF (janfolkert.alter) is online.

Second Life: Mariella Diesel (mariella.deezul) is offline.

herman Bergson: ethics of who?

Qwark Allen: God

herman Bergson: yes us...simple people at the end of the food chain....

Debbie Dee (framdor): god?

Qwark Allen: just a joke

herman Bergson: while the vultures circle above our heads

Qwark Allen: yes, indeed

Qwark Allen: i have to go now

Qwark Allen: thank you hermann

herman Bergson: I guess ...we better stop for today indeed ^_^

Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

Lizzy Pleides: TC Qwark

Qwark Allen: :-)))

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): bye Qwark

herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation again

Qwark Allen: i should be already playing at a club

Qwark Allen: eheheh

herman Bergson: Class dismissed

Qwark Allen: we are getting the answers we are looking for ^^

herman Bergson: Run Qwark!!!

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): I'll read the blog tomorrow Herman..I missed it all I guess

Lizzy Pleides: we have to thank you for teaching us ethics Herman

herman Bergson: Dont worry Beertje.....the text is patient....

.: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): as I am:)))

421: The Aftermath of Neoliberalism: Don't buy Xmas presents....

- quote -

"You were right. The toast was a HUGE hit! I used the version with the dance quote. One person told me it was the best toast they had ever heard. 

-

I had at least 3 dozen people congratulate me on it throughout the night. Many of them pointing out a different part that they enjoyed. The groom's parents and uncle were especially touched by what I said." - end quote -

-

Isn't this great?! And this only for US$149 !!!! This is about the speech of the best friend of the groom (or something like that) at his wedding. He didn't write it, but bought it at http://www.ThePerfectToast.com

-

How would have been the reactions of the people have been when he had ended his speech by telling that he didn't write the speech himself but had it written for US$149 by someone else?

-

Are there things that ought not to be bought? And if this is true, then what things are ok to sell or buy and which not? Or to say it in other words: do there exists things which money can not buy.

-

Ok, friendship, or a Nobel prize or an Oscar can not be bought, but Richard Allen Posner (born January 11, 1939), an American jurist, legal theorist, and economist, suggested that adoption babies would be better of when sold to the highest bidder.

-

Let's talk about gifts. You like getting gifts? Then you are economically pretty dumb :-) Let me explain. You contribute to an enormous value destruction.

-

December 1993, the economist Joel Waldfogel, published an article with the title "The Deadweight Loss of Christmas". You can find it on the internet, very technical article.

-

His conclusion: "Estimates in this paper indicate that between a tenth and a third of the value of holiday gifts is destroyed by gift-giving.  (…) holiday gift expenditures in 1992 totaled $38 billion according to one estimate. 

-

If between a tenth and a third of this spending was wasted, then the deadweight loss of 1992 holiday gift-giving was between $4 billion and $13 billion." - end quote -

-

In 2009 Waldfogel restyled his ideas  on the subject and published them in a nice book  (US$9.95 only) Maybe a nice gift ;-) for Xmas. "Scroogenomics: Why You Shouldn't Buy Presents for the Holidays"

-

- quote -

"Another huge, value-destroying hurricane is about to slam America, destroying billions of dollars of value. Another Katrina? No, another Christmas. 

-

This voluntary December calamity is explained in a darkly amusing little book that is about the size of an iPhone. 

-

Scroogenomics comes from a distinguished publisher, Princeton University Press, and an eminent author, Joel Waldfogel of the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton business school."--George Will, Washington Post

 -

Let's listen to Waldfogel himself: "Gift giving is a poor way to allocate resources……" , a quote from a 6 minutes video interview with the author. I'll give you the URL at the end of the lecture and you HAVE to watch it.

-

- quote -

"The bottom line is that other people who go shopping  for us and buy clothes, music or whatever , are probably not as good in choosing as we would be ourselves. 

-

There is a good chance that their choices, no matter how well intended, are ineffective. If we consider their gifts to the degree of satisfaction that the money spent could have given us, we see that there is value destruction."

-

"Economic theory - and common sense- tell us that things, we bought ourselves, offer us more satisfaction per euro, dollar or shekel than things others bought for us."

- end quote -

-

Of course this lecture may cause a smile on your face or make you laugh, but my real intention is to ask you: do you think this is all ok or comes there over you a feeling that we are loosing here things we value?

-

You may just go home and think about this. In my next lecture I'll come to conclusions. Now just have fun and watch Joel Waldfogel.

http://press.princeton.edu/video/waldfogel/

watch this (unfortunately only in French and German):

http://videos.arte.tv/fr/videos/la-grande-pompe-a-phynances--6965918.html

The Discussion

[13:28] herman Bergson: thank you

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Professor, ...i have one problem with this

[13:29] herman Bergson: I hope you understand what Waldfogel is saying in the interview...talking like an economist

[13:29] herman Bergson: ok Lizzy what is the problem?

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: we shouldn't make the same mistake as Ayn Rand and only ask for values, we also have ideals

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: a gift is also a symbol for love

[13:30] Barbie Alchemi is online.

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes..you've got the point of what I am saying...

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: this is an immense value

[13:30] herman Bergson: but you'll be shocked when you hear economists talk about this

[13:31] Lizzy Pleides: i thought so

[13:31] herman Bergson: and this issue of the economic ineffectiveness of giving gifts is just the (fun)tip of the iceberg

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: but if you consider that a present is chosen with much passion it has a completely different value, ... not to count in €

[13:32] Kime Babenco: Let me say , for example Christmas presents... ... some get a hugh present, some get fe pairs of socks

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:33] herman Bergson: yes I know Lizzy...and yet the market economy is pushing aside these qualities....

[13:33] Kime Babenco: Depends on the family of course, the economical situation

[13:33] Lizzy Pleides: socks are useful kime

[13:34] herman Bergson: it is not the size of the present what is the issue here...

[13:34] herman Bergson: it is the question...should I give the socks (he doesnt like) or the 10 euro/dollar, so he can buy whatever he likes

[13:34] Kime Babenco: Yes, but you needed anyway... It's not exactly a present of love or whatever

[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: I like to give money and creive

[13:35] herman Bergson: Yes Clerisse....

[13:35] Kime Babenco: ceive ?

[13:35] Kime Babenco: creive ?

[13:35] Clerisse Beeswing: With giving money the chances of the person getting the gift might not be disappointed

[13:35] Jannah (jannahnura) is offline.

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: many presents are chosen in an embarrassing situation, ... only for having a present, these are the gifts which are meant probably

[13:36] Kime Babenco: I agree

[13:36] herman Bergson: In Japan it is custom to accept present and not open them in the presence of the giver ^_^

[13:36] Clerisse Beeswing: wow I like that

[13:36] Kime Babenco: Most people know kids like toys , but to adults they never ask what they want as a present...

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: so you can't show that you are disappointed

[13:37] herman Bergson: It shows the essence of giving presents in a way...the giving is the value...not the object itself...

[13:37] Lizzy Pleides: never ask children what they want Kime!

[13:37] Clerisse Beeswing: that isa hard thing sometimes

[13:38] herman Bergson: There is an in between....the Gift card

[13:38] Kime Babenco: I did once here, in Brasil, at my 15th birthday, and people leaved angry

[13:38] Clerisse Beeswing: I like the video

[13:38] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:38] herman Bergson: Isn't it amusing Clerisse?

[13:38] Clerisse Beeswing: yes very

[13:39] Clerisse Beeswing: I might get the book

[13:39] Kime Babenco: You have to open it while the people who gave you are around !

[13:39] Kime Babenco: Even I knew I knew what was in it

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: well, a present is always s symbol of appreciation, but i like more something my children made themselves and that they didn't spend money

[13:40] herman Bergson: Well I once gave my wife flowers she didn't like that much....I mean the flowers....

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: poor herman

[13:41] Clerisse Beeswing: ahh I love flowers

[13:41] herman Bergson: then I asked her...well I could have given you the 15 Euro....maybe you would have liked that better then

[13:41] herman Bergson: she said no...never....

[13:41] Lizzy Pleides: i don't like graveyard flowers

[13:41] herman Bergson: you better give me flowers which aren't my favorite than money..

[13:42] Clerisse Beeswing: I remember a grab bag present I got

[13:42] The Silent one (odie.rhosar) is online.

[13:42] Kime Babenco: It's always complicated

[13:42] Clerisse Beeswing: socks

[13:42] herman Bergson: But this also shows the point Lizzy makes ...

[13:43] herman Bergson: the value of a gift is not only its economic and usefulness value....it is the meaning, the intention, the attention and care of the giver he put into his choosing the gift that you receive too

[13:43] Lizzy Pleides: herman, i guess you are married more that 10 years, ... you should know which flowers your wife likes:-))

[13:44] herman Bergson: grins....and blushes

[13:44] Kime Babenco: For my 18th anniversary, my friends gave me an extremely large box, well designed in gifts paper 

[13:44] Kime Babenco: It was almost an empty box

[13:45] Kime Babenco: Full with foiled news papers

[13:45] Clerisse Beeswing: ahhh wow

[13:45] herman Bergson: a joke?

[13:46] Kime Babenco: In the middle of it was a small box... with 200 R$ in it

[13:46] herman Bergson: oh ..!

[13:46] herman Bergson: Nice find :-)

[13:46] Lizzy Pleides: awesome

[13:46] Kime Babenco: Just as the size of a box of matches

[13:46] Clerisse Beeswing: nice present

[13:47] herman Bergson: I guess you bought yourself a diamond ring of the money ^_^

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: what did you do wit the news papers?

[13:47] Kime Babenco: yeeeeaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!!! , very nice, ands surprising...

[13:47] herman Bergson: lol

[13:47] Clerisse Beeswing: nice friends

[13:48] Kime Babenco: The originall box they had from a supermarket, , was originally a box of pampers... for babies

[13:49] herman Bergson: oh dear....the hidden message ^_^

[13:49] Lizzy Pleides: yes, hehe

[13:49] Kime Babenco: Huge box

[13:49] herman Bergson: did you buy pampers for the money Kime? ^_^

[13:50] Lizzy Pleides: Hahahaha..... ㋡   

[13:50] Kime Babenco: Lol

[13:51] Lizzy Pleides: the news papers were the waist

[13:51] Kime Babenco: Of course we went to party

[13:51] herman Bergson: Well thank you all...our discussion brought some fun

[13:51] Clerisse Beeswing: It was very good professor

[13:51] Clerisse Beeswing: Thank you

[13:51] Kime Babenco: Yes , those were to fill up the box and make it heavy...

[13:52] herman Bergson: I hope next Thursday the weather will be better :-)

[13:52] Lizzy Pleides: yes, this was an almost private lesson

[13:52] Kime Babenco: You have bad weather there now ?

[13:52] herman Bergson: I guess a number of people had trouble flying in here today ^_^

[13:53] herman Bergson: or even trouble getting into SL

[13:53] Kime Babenco: That's another kind of flying of course ...lol

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: perhaps with bad weather more people are sitting in front of the screen

[13:54] herman Bergson: Yes Lizzy....cold and stormy autumn nights !