430: The Art Not tobe an Egoist 5

"One day is enough to determine that a person is evil; it takes a life to see that he is good." according to  Théodore Simon Jouffroy (1796 – 1842), a French philosopher. Harsh words !

Thomas Henry Huxley (1825 - 1895) claims that Man is an a-moral animal like all other living creatures. His natural interest is the struggle for life at all costs.

Only much later in evolution man "invented" morals. It is not an invention of nature but of culture. Nature and morality relate to each other in deep contradiction. 

In fact Huxley ran in a contradiction. His fundamental idea was that ALL human behavior was a product of nature, of evolution.

However in his lecture "Evolution and Ethics" he claims that moral ideas developed much later in evolution. As Huxley wrote himself"

"On the question of morality, I see no trace of nature. It is a product created exclusively by man".

How could he make such a mistake? One reason can be that Darwin himself wasn't clear about this issue himself.  On the one hand he too claims that all behavior is a product of evolution.

But on the other hand he claims that moral sentiments are "probably the best and most important difference between man and animal".

Thus the confusing situation arises, that on the one hand ALL behavior is a product of evolution, but on the other hand ethics is an exclusive product of man.

That this contradiction could exist is not surprising, because the general idea about man in those times was in sync with these ideas.

A man like Johann Gottfried Herder (1744 - 1803), a German poet and theologian, regarded human morality as a product of education.

He said: "Education for humanity is a work that should be pursued relentlessly, or we fall back to the raw animal nature, to brutality."

Are we really that bad? Can it really be the case that all behavior is said to be a product of evolution and then all of a sudden our moral behavior is a product of culture?

An outspoken opponent of these ideas is Frans de Waal, PhD (born 29 October 1948), a Dutch primatologist and ethologist.

The idea that human morality is represented as a thin crust, under which  the antisocial, amoral and selfish passions are bubbling, he called the 'Façade Theory'.

The famous ethologist Konrad Lorenz (1903 - 1989) was a supporter of this Façade Theory. He considers the human capacity for morality as natural, but he regarded it in relation to other animal-human behavior as inferior.

In light of such a theory selfishness, aggressiveness, hatred and murder are more "real" than caring, devotion, sympathy and love.

The older a property of man is, the more you can trace it in the world of reptiles or fish, he argues, the more powerful it is in determining the nature of man.

However, Lorenz, does not explain why older behavior patterns are more dominant than evolutionary more recent ones. Why should evolution have added later only weaker traits? In fact it may be the opposite. 

Michael T. Ghiselin (1939 - ),  an American biologist, and philosopher as well as historian of biology currently at the California Academy of Sciences wrote in 1974:

"Where it suits his own interests, a human being understandably supports his family. If he sees no other way, he is subordinate to the community. 

But give him a chance to live according to his own interests, there is nothing that prevent him from being violent, maim and kill  - his brother, his spouse, his parents or his children. Scratch an "altruists" and you see a hypocrite bleeding."

Harsh words! Ok, in situations of crisis we can be violent and aggressive, but why should this behavior be more "real human nature" than our other behavior?

With regard to  the current state of knowledge, what   should strengthen us  on the assumption that our "bad" behavior comes from the animal kingdom, the "good", however, comes from the human culture?

The Discussion

[13:22] herman Bergson: Thank you....^_^

[13:22] Debbie Dee (framdor): Interesting - thanks prof

[13:23] Qwark Allen: ::::::::: * E * X * C * E * L * L * E * N * T  * ::::::::::

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well I like the comparison with other animals

[13:23] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman!

[13:23] herman Bergson: The famous nature / nurture debate....^_^

[13:23] Bejiita Imako: hmm interesting for sure

[13:23] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I agree with this.... Only much later in evolution man "invented" morals. It is not an invention of nature but of culture.

[13:24] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): But not with this bit.... Nature and morality relate to each other in deep contradiction.

[13:24] Debbie Dee (framdor): Lorenz makes a weak point. Evolution happens when the weaker traits perish. So the newer evolutionary steps are equally strong

[13:24] herman Bergson: Then you have a serious opponent in Frans de Waal Merlin

[13:24] Catt (catt.gable): is the argument that morals should be invalidated because they are an invention of man?

[13:25] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Yes and he someone who studies animals too I think

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes Debbie...but sad to say Lorenz was a nazi and that fits with the warrior idea of man

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: however that our basics are to kill each other and cause suffering, that seems strange

[13:25] Lizzy Pleides: perhaps the question how much animal we are is a historical question because the evolution is going on

[13:25] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): These human morals ..are they good?

[13:25] Bejiita Imako: cause a basic drive for us is to be social and feel good

[13:26] herman Bergson: Yes Bejiita...of course...

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: really tricky this for sure how this works

[13:26] herman Bergson: we'll end up there of course

[13:26] Debbie Dee (framdor): Moral values help us to co-exist as social animals

[13:26] Bejiita Imako: but u got to wonder, now there is total war in Palestine again

[13:26] herman Bergson: Moral values are the on sequence of us BEING social animals, I would say Debbie

[13:27] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am not sure that morality serves any other purpose than practical co-existence and feeling good about ourselves.

[13:27] herman Bergson: That is beside the point Bejiita....that is present politics

[13:27] Debbie Dee (framdor): And it is a recipe for species proliferation....

[13:27] herman Bergson: Sure moral ideas have a function....

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): we are very successful at keeping people alive. all 7 B

[13:28] Qwark Allen: lets see for how long

[13:28] herman Bergson: the question at the moment is...is it just a varnish or is it inherently human as a result of evolution

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): all 7B??...

[13:28] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): what do you mean?

[13:28] Debbie Dee (framdor): billion

[13:28] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I don't think morality follows from evolution

[13:29] herman Bergson: But our consciousness of good and bad does Merlin ???

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): So how did the commandments come about?

[13:29] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): hmm perhaps

[13:29] Debbie Dee (framdor): they probably evolved ;)

[13:29] herman Bergson: You mean our consciousness is extra terestrial Merlin

[13:30] herman Bergson: From another source than evolution?

[13:30] Debbie Dee (framdor): Oh yes merlin.... I like that concept

[13:30] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Dont forget that man has evolved very little in the last 200,000 years

[13:30] Qwark Allen: eheheh add there 200 000 more

[13:30] Qwark Allen: i`ll say half million years

[13:30] herman Bergson: what are you talking about if we talk about millions of years of evolution….?

[13:31] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): ok I wont argue with that

[13:31] herman Bergson: our most recent rise to consciousness is just 60.000 years old...

[13:31] herman Bergson: a wink of an eye in history

[13:31] Qwark Allen: remember, that never have been found a specie that links us in the evolution tree of darwin

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: when you drive a car you can see that we still have animal instinct

[13:32] Qwark Allen: so far is not proven that we are a fruit of evolution

[13:32] Debbie Dee (framdor): Well, when did we start to have moral values? A recent new scientist article suggests it was when we started to perceive our mortality, and began to bury the dead.

[13:32] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): OMG come on Quark :(

[13:32] Qwark Allen: natural, that is

[13:32] Qwark Allen: eheheh search about

[13:32] herman Bergson: Qwark...

[13:32] herman Bergson: it has never been proven that we come from elsewhere either :-)

[13:32] Qwark Allen: thats factual reality, about our specie

[13:33] Qwark Allen: we don`t know what are our ancestors

[13:33] herman Bergson: But all our chemistry belongs to this planet...that is proven

[13:33] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There is a whole sequence of fossils which trace man's evlolution

[13:33] Debbie Dee (framdor): qwark, you have the most amazing facts at your disposal.....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Points at the chart at the wall

[13:33] herman Bergson: I guess you overlook that picture Qwark

[13:33] Qwark Allen: thats a fact, but ... like most of creatures of this planet there isn`t a link for us

[13:34] herman Bergson: there is....

[13:34] Qwark Allen: its the missing link

[13:34] Qwark Allen: that is why it was named "the missing link"

[13:34] herman Bergson: our DNA differs only for 3% from a chimpansee

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): the missing link is the yetti ;)

[13:34] Qwark Allen: not 3% , 0.5%

[13:34] Debbie Dee (framdor): Corect on the dna herman

[13:34] Qwark Allen: to be exact

[13:34] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): There is NO missing link, except that there are always inevitably gaps between all links

[13:35] Qwark Allen: you believe what you want to believe

[13:35] herman Bergson: Indeed Merlin...

[13:35] Qwark Allen: but the theory behind your truth, was not proven to our specie

[13:35] herman Bergson: So I would say....

[13:36] herman Bergson: there IS a strong relation between chimpanses / animals and us, naked apes :-)

[13:36] herman Bergson: That link is evident

[13:36] Qwark Allen: have in mind, that at a point there was 5 different species of hominides

[13:36] herman Bergson: oh yes...

[13:36] Qwark Allen: we are the last ones to survive

[13:36] herman Bergson: all these can be traced to by the DNA of all people...

[13:37] Qwark Allen: and we have genes from neanderthals

[13:37] herman Bergson: that is true Qwark :-)

[13:37] Qwark Allen: when we bread with them

[13:37] herman Bergson: We did our best not to make it, but so far we made it ^_^

[13:37] Qwark Allen: ^^

[13:37] Bejiita Imako: indeed ㋡

[13:37] Qwark Allen: we are terrible to other species

[13:38] herman Bergson: True ..and sometimes we still are Neanderthalers^_^

[13:38] herman Bergson: That is the whole point here

[13:38] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[13:38] Qwark Allen: yes, was where i was getting in the end

[13:38] herman Bergson: We want to be good and we do bad (now and then)

[13:38] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): were the Neanderthalers bad people with no morality?

[13:38] Qwark Allen: our instinct of survival is bigger then everything else

[13:38] Debbie Dee (framdor): And we do bad, believing we are doing good sometimes.

[13:39] Qwark Allen: we are just more adaptive

[13:39] herman Bergson: You are right Beertje....I think they weren't

[13:39] Qwark Allen: they were good people like us

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): of course..they were people just you and me

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: no more like animals, just following instincts i think

[13:39] Qwark Allen: just not as well prepared for natural changes

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): just like you and me

[13:39] Bejiita Imako: dont know

[13:39] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): they have a bad name..and whatfore?

[13:39] Qwark Allen: ehheeh a bad name?

[13:40] herman Bergson: Jean Auel describes them in an interesting way....calling them the flatheads

[13:40] Lizzy Pleides: neanderthals are amazing

[13:40] Qwark Allen: i have to say that Qwark, sounds much better then Neanderthal

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: haha well you use to call someone u dont like for F223ck846ng neanderthal!

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: haha

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: heard many times

[13:40] Qwark Allen: but for a Neanderthal, i bet Qwark should sound awfull

[13:40] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:40] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:40] Bejiita Imako: hahahahahahaha

[13:40] herman Bergson: ^_^

[13:41] herman Bergson: OK...

[13:41] Bejiita Imako: loolo

[13:41] herman Bergson: so

[13:41] herman Bergson: our question is not yet fully answered...

[13:41] herman Bergson: is morals as much a product of evolution as all our other behavior

[13:42] herman Bergson: or is it just something we "invented" to stay alive in a social way?

[13:42] Qwark Allen: i think its a product of society living

[13:42] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well I think I already gave my view

[13:42] Qwark Allen: you all remember that boy, that grew with animals

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: Tarzan?

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: hahahahaha

[13:43] herman Bergson: Moglie?

[13:43] Qwark Allen: he was a good boy, but his morality for our standards, was, not the same

[13:43] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): Mowgli

[13:43] herman Bergson: Romulus and Remulus?

[13:43] Qwark Allen: was a true story

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: aaa jungle book u mean?

[13:43] Qwark Allen: in the 20th century

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: yes think that might have been the case when i think of it

[13:43] Bejiita Imako: sounds familiar

[13:43] herman Bergson: But Qwark.....

[13:44] Qwark Allen: he was found with still adolescent

[13:44] herman Bergson: Was that boy able to care for someone?

[13:44] Vadaman: Romulus and Remus? Talking about killing your brother.

[13:44] herman Bergson: Love someone

[13:44] herman Bergson: KNow when someone was hurt or sad?

[13:44] Qwark Allen: that is the point

[13:44] herman Bergson: It is...

[13:44] Qwark Allen: society and education gives you the values to live on community

[13:44] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): he cared about his family..his animal family

[13:45] herman Bergson: Wolves and chimpansees do too Qwark

[13:45] Qwark Allen: yes, true, just not the same  ones, we have

[13:45] herman Bergson: the only difference is that only we are conscious of this fact

[13:45] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): are you sure Herman?

[13:45] Qwark Allen: we can have another example, of New Guinea, in the Pacific

[13:46] Qwark Allen: with the headhunters

[13:46] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje..otherwise we never would have a debate on ethics

[13:46] Bejiita Imako: ok

[13:46] Qwark Allen: for us is morally wrong to kill someone and eat him

[13:46] herman Bergson: That is for headhunters too Qwark....

[13:46] Qwark Allen: in their culture was ok, cause they thought, the killed friend, was living inside them, after being ate

[13:47] herman Bergson: They only hunt their enemy....

[13:47] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): an animal doesn't eat his own species as well qwark

[13:47] Qwark Allen: heeheh friends to

[13:47] herman Bergson: Some do Beertje...

[13:47] Lizzy Pleides: beertje animals eat their own species

[13:47] herman Bergson: Most famous one is the Spider...the female one who eats her lover after a one night stand ^_^

[13:47] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Cannibalism is biologically hazardous, for example the Mad Cow Disease episode

[13:47] Qwark Allen: hhehehe yes

[13:48] Qwark Allen: mad cow is related with a bug, a vibration

[13:48] herman Bergson: Indeed Merlin....

[13:48] Qwark Allen: not much about it, so far

[13:48] herman Bergson: was a creepy thing feeding cows 'meat'

[13:48] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yes

[13:48] Lizzy Pleides: oh yes!

[13:48] Qwark Allen: infected with vibrations, food

[13:49] Bejiita Imako: prions i think its called

[13:49] Qwark Allen: yes that it

[13:50] Vadaman: When men are starving they eat other men.

[13:50] herman Bergson: Has happened indeed...

[13:50] Vadaman: Stalingrad.

[13:50] herman Bergson: I once mentioned the lifeboat incident here...

[13:50] herman Bergson: But ok....

[13:51] herman Bergson: maybe we might take a vote...

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Wasn't there a plane crash in the Andes too?

[13:51] herman Bergson: option A

[13:51] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Or was that fiction?

[13:51] Vadaman: Rugbyteam

[13:51] herman Bergson: Morality is just a varnish created by culture

[13:51] herman Bergson: option B

[13:51] Lizzy Pleides: yes mwelin

[13:51] herman Bergson: Morality is the result of evolution which made us social beings

[13:52] herman Bergson: ok...what is your answer?

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Sorry... I see Herman is trying to get us back on topic

[13:52] Qwark Allen: i think it depends on the level of survival need, according to the need at the reality

[13:52] herman Bergson: A or B

[13:52] Debbie Dee (framdor): option B for me ;)

[13:52] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): option a for me

[13:52] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Well it's A for me

[13:52] Qwark Allen: its A and B

[13:52] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[13:52] Qwark Allen: lol

[13:52] Bejiita Imako: heheh

[13:53] herman Bergson: these are jsut three answers...you are 8!

[13:53] herman Bergson: A: 2 B:1 sofar

[13:53] herman Bergson: come on...!

[13:53] Qwark Allen: when we started to live in groups, morality evolved with it

[13:53] Debbie Dee (framdor): evolved = B

[13:53] Bejiita Imako: hhm tricky but i say B, our base instinct cant be all evil

[13:53] Lizzy Pleides: is A and B a contradiction?

[13:53] Vadaman: I hope B

[13:54] herman Bergson: smiles at Vadaman...

[13:54] Qwark Allen: its A also, cause to live in society makes it

[13:54] herman Bergson: yes Lizzy

[13:54] Lizzy Pleides: ok then i tend to B

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: and I for example have nothing of soul in me wouldn't be able to hurt some other person

[13:54] Bejiita Imako: or something similar

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: would feel so wrong to do

[13:55] Lizzy Pleides: do you drive a car bejiita?

[13:55] herman Bergson: you are just well educated Bejiita ^_^

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: if it was A that wouldn't be correct on me

[13:55] Qwark Allen: its another adaptive tool we have to keep surviving in this planet

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: hmm well that might be a thing too

[13:55] Bejiita Imako: its sooo tricky and complex all this

[13:56] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): I am just trying to summarize that question:

option A

Morality is just a varnish created by culture

option B

Morality is the result of evolution which made us social beings

[13:56] herman Bergson: Yes it is Bejiita

[13:56] herman Bergson: OK Merlin

[13:56] herman Bergson: A = Nurture, B = Nature

[13:57] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): yess

[13:57] herman Bergson: OK..I guess we need another lecture on this ^_^

[13:57] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): lol

[13:57] Debbie Dee (framdor): I guess so...

[13:57] herman Bergson: so...thank you all for your participation...:-))

[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: this is so exciting

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: really interesting it was for sure

[13:58] Qwark Allen: imagine tomorrow a flare hits earth, and all will be without electricity, then you`ll see the moral of our society

[13:58] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[13:58] Debbie Dee (framdor): Thank you Herman - confusion reigns...

[13:58] herman Bergson: Then you should make a difference here Qwark...

[13:59] herman Bergson: Look at that situation in the short term and the long term

[13:59] Qwark Allen: short term chaos,

[13:59] Qwark Allen: long term, reorganization

[13:59] herman Bergson: In the short term worst of us will surface...but inthe long term...???

[14:00] Qwark Allen: yes, was what i said

[14:00] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Are we all refusing to leave?

[14:00] herman Bergson: But if we want to reorganize we need ethics....the differenc ebetween good and bad

[14:00] herman Bergson: lol Merlin

[14:00] Qwark Allen: that is why, i was saying, all depend on the level of survival need for the the time

[14:00] herman Bergson: SHould I eject you all then????lol

[14:00] Bejiita Imako: hahaha

[14:00] Qwark Allen: individual, or social

[14:00] Qwark Allen: AAHH!!!

[14:01] Qwark Allen: just ten more minutes

[14:01] Qwark Allen: °͜° l ☺ ☻ ☺ l °͜°

[14:01] Qwark Allen: lol

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ㋡

[14:01] herman Bergson: lol

[14:01] herman Bergson: Well the only thing of dismissing class is that I am no longer responsable for what happens after ^_^

[14:01] Debbie Dee (framdor): I've got to go.... bye all

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: hehe

[14:01] .: Beertje :. (beertje.beaumont): lol Herman

[14:01] Bejiita Imako: ok cu Debbie

[14:02] Merlin (merlin.saxondale): Bye Debbie

[14:02] herman Bergson: ok Debbie...nice you were here

[14:02] Vadaman: Bye!

429: The Art Not to be an Egoist 4

Let's look at our present picture. We know the difference between good and bad and we all want to be good. This is because morality is part of human nature.

Thus we have to find out how morality is embedded in human nature. Plato, about 400 B.C., made us believe that there exists the Good, a something which is independent of human nature.

We only have to follow the right path, that of the virtues and away from lust, to acquire knowledge of the Good, which then can be the standard for the morality of our  actions.

But every religion and ideology claims to know what the Good is. However, they all have different opinions and besides that we discover soon enough that what is good for me, isn't necessarily also good for you.

Therefor Plato made a mistake. There does not exist a universal and independent Good. But should that force us to an absolute relativism? That's doesn't feel acceptable either.

Then let us look at the counterpart of good: evil. There happen bad things in our world, small and big ones. We all agree about that. So where does that come from?

"One day is enough to determine that a person is evil; it takes a life to see that he is good." according to 

Théodore Simon Jouffroy (6 July 1796 – 4 February 1842), a French philosopher. Harsh words !

So, maybe it is the case that we are basically bad, that what we call good and moral behavior is only a thin varnish, put over our true bestial nature by culture.

When we look at the history of philosophy then most philosophers are optimists in their assumption that man is inherently good.

The assumed champion of the idea, that man is by nature bad, is perhaps the philosopher, Thomas Hobbes (1588 - 1679) with his "homo homini lupus".

Words that weren't Hobbes at all, but a quote from the Roman comedy poet Plautus, who died 184 B.C.

In a condition which Hobbes calls the state of nature, which is the state when there is no government, 

each person would have a right, or license, to everything in the world. This, he argues, would lead to a "war of all against all" (bellum omnium contra omnes).

It is, however, a mistake to assume that Hobbes regarded man being a bestial creature, like a wolf. Not to mention that wolves actually are very social animals.

What he meant was that man as such is nothing, good nor bad. Good and Bad come into being through the actions of man.

Good is, what is in my interest and bad is what conflicts with my interests. As this is so for everybody, it will be a war of all against all unless we organize ourselves by a social contract.

So, we create evil, not because we are evil by nature but because of the eternal conflict of interests we experience among each other.

Let's look for another witness, who can testify that we are evil, animals, deep down inside. How about Thomas Henry Huxley (1825 - 1895), a supporter of Darwin's theory of evolution.

In 1893 Huxley held a lecture at Oxford University with the title "Evolution and Ethics". His point: Man is inherently bad.

Man is an a-moral animal like all other living creatures. His natural interest is the struggle for life at all costs.

Only much later in evolution man "invented" morals. It is not an invention of nature but of culture. Nature and morality relate to each other in deep contradiction. 

To be continues next Thursday…….

Thank you ^_^

The Discussion

[13:23] Daruma: ok;-)

[13:24] Framdor: Thanks Prof Herman - most stimulating as usual

[13:24] herman Bergson: The floor is yours...

[13:24] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you professor! Brilliant!

[13:24] Daruma: but isnt evil also created in a society?

[13:24] Daruma: not only by one person?

[13:24] herman Bergson: We are society Daruma

[13:24] Daruma: yes, but it sounds

[13:24] herman Bergson: Yes collective evil...

[13:24] Mick Nerido: I don't think culture and nature are in contradiction...

[13:25] Daruma: that only one person is creating the evil for himself alone

[13:25] herman Bergson: like soldiers at war acting collectively

[13:25] Daruma: or the good

[13:25] WhiteCityKitty: good and evil dwell in each of us and it is our choice moment by moment which to choose.

[13:25] Daruma: thats right kitty

[13:25] Daruma: but as herman said

[13:25] Daruma: good and evil is different to each person^^

[13:25] herman Bergson: Yes that may be so White...but when and why do we choose?

[13:26] Framdor: We need a sense of meaning in this world. The social contracts ensure that we can act out our lives against a backdrop of society.

[13:26] herman Bergson: The answer to that question answers our question of today

[13:26] Framdor: within the contracts, good and bad are easily judged

[13:26] WhiteCityKitty: in order to choose, we must find our 'watcher' and from there be guided by the source and not the ego.

[13:26] herman Bergson: are we just animals with a thin varnish of morality

[13:26] Daruma: thats my opinion also, herman;-)

[13:27] WhiteCityKitty: morality comes from lessons learned by mistakes

[13:27] Mick Nerido: we are animals with the chance to choose good or evil...

[13:27] Daruma: when we loose food, safety and electricity i guess

[13:27] Daruma: we all turn into beasts^

[13:27] herman Bergson: The idea IS tempting Daruma....

[13:27] Framdor: Morality comes from fitting into your social environment.

[13:27] herman Bergson: I was shock years ago by the war in Yugoslavia….

[13:28] Daruma: and i gues most ppl do not think about their acting in society

[13:28] herman Bergson: It was a country where we went on vacation....etc...

[13:28] herman Bergson: and all of a sudden such bestialities, mass murders, concentration camps

[13:28] Daruma: they do not know what they do and how society is reacting to them

[13:28] Daruma: or better why others act as they act to them

[13:29] Lizzy Pleides: there's a group dynamic behavior too

[13:29] Daruma: no self reflection i mean

[13:29] herman Bergson: So Framdor..is morality a product of culture?

[13:29] Mick Nerido: culture is like rule of the game without it we don't play well together

[13:29] Framdor: Yes. bad things happen when the social contracts are broken.

[13:30] WhiteCityKitty: morality is not a product of only culture

[13:30] herman Bergson: So you believe that we are inherently evil, Framdor...

[13:30] Framdor: and to fit into a society, you need to adopt the moral rules.

[13:30] WhiteCityKitty: it also is a product of our personal development over time

[13:30] Framdor: Like don't kill each other.

[13:30] WhiteCityKitty: it can be against culture

[13:30] WhiteCityKitty: culture is not what we should follow

[13:31] Framdor: I agree that morals are also formed at an individual level.

[13:31] WhiteCityKitty: our hearts and intuition tell us what is right and what is wrong.

[13:31] WhiteCityKitty: and sometimes that doesn't agree with culture.

[13:31] herman Bergson: Yes but the question is….aren't they a pert of our nature?

[13:31] Framdor: I speak of society. the process of living together in a small world

[13:31] herman Bergson: Was Huxley right or not?

[13:31] Daruma: i guess it has to be a balance between good and bad

[13:31] Mick Nerido: yes we are part of nature...

[13:32] Daruma: nothing can live without the other side

[13:32] WhiteCityKitty: posititve and negative are always present in each moment

[13:32] Daruma: where is light, there also a shadow is

[13:32] Daruma: true kitty

[13:32] WhiteCityKitty: they remain in balance

[13:32] Mick Nerido: We are heard animals, we need each other to survive

[13:32] Framdor: Huxly was wrong. man is not inherently bad.

[13:32] Lizzy Pleides: we are a part of the nature but our intelligence allowed it to cultivate it

[13:33] WhiteCityKitty: and lust is not evil

[13:33] Daruma: as birth is important but also death

[13:33] Framdor: Sometimes we are very misguided.

[13:33] herman Bergson: You are all good today ...

[13:33] Framdor: But overall we are a kind and long suffering species.

[13:33] herman Bergson: good remarks!

[13:33] Daruma: ;-)

[13:33] herman Bergson: Let's continue on Thursday..

[13:33] WhiteCityKitty: but...

[13:34] Mick Nerido: a week from thursday?

[13:34] WhiteCityKitty: :)

[13:34] Daruma: oh next time i will be here in 2 weeks;-(

[13:34] herman Bergson: and yes Debbie I agree..the idea of Huxlley is very questionable

[13:34] Framdor: ;)

[13:34] herman Bergson: So..

[13:34] Framdor: I like to try and see the best in people all the time.

[13:34] herman Bergson: thank you all for your participation again....

[13:34] Daruma: yw herman

[13:34] Framdor: and mostly I find the best people ....

[13:35] WhiteCityKitty: you can the best in ppl only if you already love yourself.

[13:35] Mick Nerido: Thanks, Herman!

[13:35] WhiteCityKitty: then you will find no judgment in another becasue you find no judgment against yourself.

[13:35] herman Bergson: It is there Debbie, but you have to keep an sharp eye on things :-)

[13:35] herman Bergson: laughs..

[13:35] Framdor:  ✧✩*❤*✩✧ G I G G L E S ✧✩*❤*✩

[13:35] herman Bergson: what do I say...is man evil yet?

[13:35] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:35] Framdor: I think I'm off to bed.

[13:35] herman Bergson: ok....

[13:36] Framdor: cu all on thursday

[13:36] herman Bergson: Class dismissed ^_^

[13:36] Daruma: so see u soon. and thank u for the lesson!

[13:36] herman Bergson: You were really inspiring again today

[13:36] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman

[13:36] Framdor: great lecture thanks herman... night all.

[13:36] Lizzy Pleides: good night Herman

[13:37] Beertje Beaumont: goodnight

[13:37] Merlin Saxondale: Bye everyone

[13:37] herman Bergson: Bye

428: The Art Not to be an Egoist 3

Our basic thesis is that we all want to be good, live the good life, but yet we do bad things (now and then). And more specific we look for the Art Not to be an Egoist.

In the previous lecture we learnt that Plato implanted the belief in our culture, that there is something as The Good, which we only can see when we have true knowledge,

And most important for that is that we do not indulge in lust and pleasure, which are only short lived. We need to focus on real virtues.

Bill Gates possesses billions of dollars. Far to much to be able to spend in one lifetime. So, he has to decided to do good, create funds for good causes.

But how good is good? Suppose he helps one country. The result is that surrounding countries get jealous, feel threatened by the richer neighbor and therefor start a war.

Or he helps one relative with money. Result is a big quarrel among relatives in terms of "Why he and not us?" and so on. Can we do any good at all?

How do we measure the "goodness" of our actions. And even worse, what is good for me doesn't have to be good for you.

Like Plato noticed… being a warrior is good for Achilles, being a family man isn't, tho there is nothing bad in being a family man.

We have a problem here. There seems to be a difference between what is good for me and what is good as such. What then is the GOOD life morally?

The answer of Plato is that there is a hierarchy of virtues like honesty, friendship, loyalty and so on and at the top there is the virtue of knowing what is Good.

From our point of view it is a bit odd idea, such a scale of virtues. The idea that living according to these virtues, you life the good life.

Sophocles and Euripides, old men in the days of young Plato, demonstrated in their tragedies how virtues can collide.

Truthfulness is a good virtue, but does that mean that being morally good means telling the truth always and everywhere?

Time and again we get confused by conflicting virtues.

Deciding for one thing implies deciding against something else.

Giving money to help people in country A implies that you decide not to give money to country not-A with the same needs.

But do we have to evaluate our actions not only on what good they do but also what not-good they do? I guess we soon would go crazy.

In other words, there does not exists such a thing as an absolute Good which is embedded in the cosmic order as Plato believed.

Honesty may be a good thing, but making the right decision in a situation whether to honest or not is another thing.

Yet Plato's idea of the Absolute Good still lives on. It makes our life on big choice: only he who chooses for the Good will life a good and righteous life.

He who chooses for God and the Bible will live such a life, or he who chooses for Allah. A religious criminal is still more than a righteous acting pagan.

This belief in the RIGHT choice is still a well known phenomenon. The right choice is communism…no christianity…no islam……no humanism. In other word, ideological dictatorship. 

Then there is a choice. What is good for me doesn't need to be good for someone else. But doesn't that mean an absolute moral relativism?

Here we have to defend Plato a little. There can be no ethics without some kind of hierarchy of values from good to bad.

On the one hand people in Western Europe no longer believe in some cosmic moral order. On the other hand we yet need a solid standard which helps us to make moral judgements.

What can we learn from Plato's error of the idea of ​​the Good, is that there doesn't exist a good beyond people. No Good, then, if it is not from this world. 

Good is a relative thing. But that very peculiar thing about it is: it is  a relative thing with often absolute claim. And this paradox is inevitable. 

For if it is true that beyond the human life and society there  is no Good in the world, we yet often treat the Good necessarily as if it would be absolutely and objectively.

Thus morally we seem to have two choices: what is good for me and what is good as such? But does the "what is good for me"not always prevail? So, aren't we basically egoists?

The Discussion

[13:26] herman Bergson: Thank you ....

[13:26] herman Bergson: The floor is yours...

[13:26] Mick Nerido: First: do no harm, the doctors credo... helps us decide, I think.

[13:26] Lizzy Pleides: Thank you Herman

[13:26] Merlin Saxondale: I have considered these issues myself, in the past, and for what its worth, my choice was 'Utilitarianism' which is the 'greatest good for the greatest number'.

[13:26] Beertje Beaumont: why should we be good?..what is the use of it?

[13:27] herman Bergson: Ok Merlin...

[13:27] herman Bergson: And Beertje....

[13:27] Merlin Saxondale: Yes Beertje that is a valid question

[13:27] herman Bergson: What would you do when I was bad to you....

[13:27] herman Bergson: feel happy?

[13:27] herman Bergson: kick my ass?

[13:27] Beertje Beaumont: yes!

[13:28] Beertje Beaumont: and that would feel good

[13:28] Lizzy Pleides: Hi Connie

[13:28] herman Bergson: indeed...

[13:28] CONNIE Eichel: hi lizzy :)

[13:28] herman Bergson: Hi CONNIE :-)

[13:28] Vadaman: Hi!

[13:28] CONNIE Eichel whispers: hi all :)

[13:28] Beertje Beaumont: but it's not about what I feel..but what you feel when you want to be bad

[13:28] CONNIE Eichel: hi professor :)

[13:28] Merlin Saxondale: I am not much in favour of 'forgiveness' ... revenge woud be my way

[13:29] herman Bergson: well Merlin there we go...blood will flow..

[13:29] Vadaman: Hmmm. Does revenge make you feel better?

[13:29] Merlin Saxondale: yes

[13:29] herman Bergson: But maybe Beertjes remark is more fundamental...

[13:29] herman Bergson: why would we ever want to be good...

[13:29] herman Bergson: ok Beertje...

[13:30] Merlin Saxondale: My answer to Beertje is 'Enlightened self-interest'

[13:30] herman Bergson: good means the evaluation of our actions...

[13:30] Lizzy Pleides: in reality we have to use the fundamental virtues pragmatically

[13:30] Mick Nerido: Hell is paved with GOOD intentions...

[13:30] herman Bergson: yes Mick.....

[13:30] Vadaman: True

[13:30] herman Bergson: that is that paradox....what is good for me and what is GOOD

[13:31] Mick Nerido: We never know what is good until after the fact...

[13:31] herman Bergson: Good answer Merlin...Enlightened Self-interest

[13:31] herman Bergson: at least that....

[13:31] Merlin Saxondale: :)

[13:32] herman Bergson: OK..we are the only species able to give a REASON for our actions

[13:32] Merlin Saxondale: I agree that it is interesting to consider what exists outside of human life, e.g. animals.

[13:32] herman Bergson: that is the whole point of ethics actually...

[13:33] Mick Nerido: Not to kill is good...

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well MErlin..not that ability to give a reason for an action....

[13:33] herman Bergson: Well Merlin...study all debates on death penalty for instance

[13:33] Vadaman: Try not to be bad is already something for starters.

[13:34] herman Bergson: You mean newbies n SL should try not to be bad in SL Vadaman?:-))

[13:34] Merlin Saxondale: lol

[13:35] herman Bergson: That only hold a week

[13:35] Lizzy Pleides: lol

[13:35] Vadaman: Haha. No, I mean in sl and rl.

[13:35] CONNIE Eichel: hehe

[13:35] Merlin Saxondale: "What is bad" is an equivalent problem

[13:35] herman Bergson: grins..

[13:36] Vadaman: Hmmm. What is bad for me can be good for others?

[13:36] herman Bergson: yes Vadaman...that is the problem...and the other way around...

[13:36] Mick Nerido: it's an ill wind that doesn't blow some good...

[13:37] herman Bergson: it seems there is a 'good' for me' and a 'good in general'

[13:37] herman Bergson: For instance....

[13:37] herman Bergson: in general..it is bad to kill...

[13:37] herman Bergson: but suppose...

[13:37] herman Bergson: that man...

[13:38] herman Bergson: if he runs free he will go to the authorities and you'll face a death sentence....

[13:38] Mick Nerido: If you fall and break a leg it is bad for you but good for me the DR. who fixes it

[13:38] herman Bergson: only option is to kill that man...

[13:38] herman Bergson: and beware...

[13:38] Lizzy Pleides: it can be good to kill a tyrant

[13:38] llStopAnimation: Script trying to stop animations but agent not found

[13:39] herman Bergson: you get the death sentence because you pleaded for human rights and freedom of speech

[13:39] Merlin Saxondale: I dont think the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is stated quite that way. It says not to commit murder or something

[13:39] herman Bergson: Killing the tyrant is a typical greek tragedy issue...

[13:39] herman Bergson: ahh Merlin....

[13:40] Mick Nerido: Any means to a good end?

[13:40] herman Bergson: Nice remark!

[13:40] herman Bergson: But is murder not an evaluation of an action?

[13:40] Merlin Saxondale: ty I am trying to look it up now

[13:40] herman Bergson: and isn't that evaluation not determined by culture...or ideology?

[13:41] herman Bergson: so is killing a tyrant murder?

[13:41] herman Bergson: was killing Hitler murder?

[13:41] herman Bergson: or killing Stalin

[13:42] herman Bergson: people who were responseble of the death of millions of peole

[13:42] Merlin Saxondale: Wikipedia gives that commandment as "You shall not murder."

[13:42] Lizzy Pleides: thank god we never had to decide that

[13:42] Beertje Beaumont: yes i think so...it still is murder at a person

[13:43] Beertje Beaumont: if we kill a tyrant we are as bad as the tyrant himself

[13:43] herman Bergson: here we are at a fundamental debate...

[13:43] Merlin Saxondale: of course you could always leave the dirty work of execution to someone else

[13:43] Vadaman: To some it would be. Also the tyrant has a mother, friends, children.

[13:43] herman Bergson: comparable to the debate on the justified war

[13:43] Mick Nerido: I agree Beertje

[13:43] herman Bergson: justified and unjustified murder

[13:44] herman Bergson: if you define the word murder only as the action of taking someones life

[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: in LAW, some acts of killing are not called murder

[13:44] Mick Nerido: Stopping the tyrant is best but not killing him

[13:44] Merlin Saxondale: Yes Mick, that is a possibility

[13:44] herman Bergson: that is what I mean Merlin...

[13:45] herman Bergson: Killing in selfdefence ...standard argument

[13:45] Merlin Saxondale: Killing in war is an example too

[13:45] herman Bergson: If I don;t kill him he will kill me

[13:45] Lizzy Pleides: yes merlin

[13:46] herman Bergson: OK...

[13:46] Beertje Beaumont: does it feel good to kill a person even he wants to kill you?

[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: Probably not

[13:46] herman Bergson: so we conclude that there is no absolute virtue saying Thou shall not kill

[13:46] herman Bergson: Here we have the same point....

[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: There is a tradition that people have a tattoo teardrop under their eye if they have killed someone....

[13:46] Merlin Saxondale: I saw such a man recently on a bus

[13:47] herman Bergson: can also be machismo...:-)

[13:47] herman Bergson: or a way to impress people

[13:47] Merlin Saxondale: well this guy looked pretty sad to me

[13:48] Merlin Saxondale: He seemed to KNOW that I knew what it meant when I looked at him

[13:48] Mick Nerido: It is a goodness not to have to kill...

[13:48] Vadaman: I know one who has two. I am not sure if he is a killer. Let's not judge too fast.

[13:48] herman Bergson: Let me put it this way....

[13:48] herman Bergson: the quintessence here is..

[13:49] herman Bergson: that on the one hand we love to hold the rule Thou shall not kill...

[13:49] herman Bergson: we use it as a standard to evaluate our actions...

[13:49] herman Bergson: on the other hand we have the thou shall not kill unless....

[13:49] herman Bergson: that also applies to our actions...

[13:50] herman Bergson: For the moment....

[13:50] herman Bergson: let it be an unsolved problem...

[13:50] Beertje Beaumont: there is much more in good and bad except killing eachother

[13:50] herman Bergson: but it is a real moral problem we will deal with in next lectures

[13:51] Beertje Beaumont: it can be in little things

[13:51] herman Bergson: Yes Beertje...

[13:51] herman Bergson: the killing issue is just an extreme example....

[13:52] herman Bergson: you re right that the worst things are in the little things people do rot eachother...

[13:52] herman Bergson: that is our daily life...

[13:52] Beertje Beaumont: yes and to deal with that can be very difficult

[13:52] herman Bergson: yes....

[13:52] Merlin Saxondale: well that might be true but only because of the number of instances

[13:53] herman Bergson: even can lead to suicide..like happened last week in th Netherlands...a boy of 20 years of age...

[13:53] Beertje Beaumont: yes..that;s what I meant

[13:53] herman Bergson: I guess you a refering to that Beertje?

[13:53] Beertje Beaumont: yes

[13:53] Merlin Saxondale: I was, yes

[13:54] Beertje Beaumont: i didn't know what 'pesten'is in english excuse me for that

[13:54] herman Bergson: The boy was bullied for a long time..

[13:54] Merlin Saxondale: Oh pesten? It sounds like pester, or harass

[13:54] herman Bergson: yes Merlin ..perfect...

[13:55] Beertje Beaumont: ㋡

[13:55] Merlin Saxondale: :)

[13:55] herman Bergson: Well...

[13:55] herman Bergson: for now...

[13:55] herman Bergson: you got enough to think about....

[13:55] herman Bergson: one the one hand the absolute 'Thou shall not..."

[13:56] herman Bergson: and on the other hand the unless...."

[13:56] Merlin Saxondale smiles

[13:56] herman Bergson: we seem to love and like both..and even need both for our morality

[13:56] Mick Nerido: Thanks professor...

[13:56] Beertje Beaumont: lol

[13:57] herman Bergson: Thank you all for your participation...:-)

[13:57] Beertje Beaumont: thank you Herman

[13:57] herman Bergson: See you on Tuesday again...and do your homework plz

[13:57] herman Bergson: THINK

[13:57] CONNIE Eichel: i will try to :)

[13:57] Vadaman: Thank you Herman.

[13:57] Lizzy Pleides: thank you Herman, it was interesting again

[13:57] herman Bergson: Class dismissed

[13:57] CONNIE Eichel: lovely class :)

[13:57] Beertje Beaumont: have a goodnight:)

[13:58] Merlin Saxondale: Bye

[13:58] CONNIE Eichel: bye bye all :)

[13:58] CONNIE Eichel: kisses :)

[13:58] herman Bergson: You leave me alone Merlin???

[13:58] Lizzy Pleides: Good night everybody

[13:58] herman Bergson: smiles

[13:59] herman Bergson: Bye Lizzy

[13:59] Vadaman: Dag Herman. Tot ziens.